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The Great Gonzo · 95682

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #225 on: January 25, 2009, 10:29:16 PM
You know, even if Classic is less my forte than the other sidescrollers, I'm more than happy to jump on Zan when I feel that he's muddying the factual with the speculative (you should see our AIM logs).  But I *REALLY* do not see what part of his last post qualifies under that.

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #226 on: January 25, 2009, 10:50:30 PM
By his last post I was much more interested in just ending the argument, while asserting that I still did not agree, more than further debating things.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #227 on: January 26, 2009, 03:36:24 AM
The game's very ending isn't canon?...
It was a trap!  The Robot Masters were waiting to ambush him!



Offline Rock Miyabi

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Reply #228 on: January 26, 2009, 07:31:59 AM
Will someone with translational integrity just translate these pages to confirm if it does match up with TMMN's info (which just by judging Bright and Dust's entries, it probably does for a paragraph), so the Bobbsey Twins here can say without a doubt this source will partially help settle their dispute?
Rockman Memories:
Rockman Perfect Memories:

Otherwise, continue on with your fight to the death and pretend I wasn't here.

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Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #229 on: January 26, 2009, 11:30:34 AM
Sorry for not using your nice scans, Miyabi, but fact checking 8 of TMMN's outdated profiles is a much larger task than I feel like tackling at the moment.

I did some looking for other, uh, 'requested' info though. I could not find anything to say specifically that Wily "stole" the R3 bosses. Which is not to say that it doesn't exist somewhere, but I could not find something that did. Still, there are some passages that make clear that Wily did remodel them for battle beyond their initial purpose, like the Rockman 1-2-3 Koushiki Guidebook (1999) on page 105 that states Wily remodeled Snakeman from a terrain surveying robot to a battle robot. For perfect accuracy you'd have to go on a case by case basis with each robot, which might be impossible based on what scattered information exists in the books I searched through. Generally speaking, there's a strong case that Wily secretly remodeled all of the robots for battle after he and Right had initially finished constructing them for peaceful purposes, though Shadowman is something of a wild card. Without knowing who had the technical legal rights over them during the partnership, it can't be said for sure, but I'll say it seems doubtful Wily would have had any legitimate right to remodel the robots in that way without Dr. Right's knowing. Which has pretty much all been said in this thread already. At any rate, the Rockman 3 Kanzen Kouryaku Technique Book (1990) explicitly uses the word for stealing on page 82 to describe the act of when Wily runs off with the energy resources during the Breakman fight. If that's stealing, I would think the only difference with the robots is that Right didn't know about it when it was happening.

That Right and Wily built the R3 robots together I did find a few sources for, the Rockman 3 Kanzen Kouryaku Technique Book on page 75 mentions it along with a hint that something was amiss, probably just to avoid the spoiler yet that Wily betrayed the partnership. Also, the Rockman 10 Years History Book (1998), a sourcebook written by none other than Hitoshi Ariga, says this on page 89:

「ロックマン3」に登場するナンバーズは、ライト博士とDr.ワイリーが共同で開発したということになっているので、厳密にいえば、型式番号は「D.R.&W.N.」とするのが正しいのかもしれない。

Because the Numbers appearing in "Rockman 3" were developed cooperatively by Dr. Right and Dr. Wily, it would probably be more correct, strictly speaking, to call their model number "Dr. Right and Wily Numbers."

Which, he actually did, when Rockman Remix first came out in 1996. The comic even had footnotes explaining that the robots were built by Right and Wily, and were adorned with "W"s because they were working for Wily for the sake of this story. When the Metal Heart story was adapted into his new Rockman Megamix series in 2002, that was changed along with the new setting of the story and they just became DWNs, I suppose to make things slightly less complicated in his new canon.

When it comes to the classic series, Ariga's a very knowledgeable dude who's been in behind the scenes a lot since '93. But don't confuse his game canon knowledge with what's in his mangas, which are a mixed bag of game stuff, other manga artists like Ikehara's stuff, and Ariga's own ideas (hence, "remix"/"megamix"). They are not one and the same. Ariga keeps them separate, we should too.

For why the R3 numbers are among Wily's favorites... As mentioned already, Wily enjoys Gutsman's design a great deal despite having nothing initially to do with it. Wily likes whatever he likes. He's generally not shy at all about taking someone else's work and making it his own. But, it's possible he could favor the R3 robots because he worked with Dr. Right to construct them. People with unhealthily obsessions with someone generally enjoy having some physical connection with the object of their fixation. Perhaps even, when it came down to the heart of it, he really enjoyed working alongside his rival on them. The fond memory of two of the greatest geniuses of their age, working together to create some amazing robots. And the betrayal part, that may have been pretty fun for him as well.

About this "official material states" list though, I don't agree with a few of these steps. In Battle and Chase, neither Quick, Shadow, Napalm or Spring are working for Wily directly before or during these evnets, which has long been one of the reasons for the belief that many of the numbers robots are recovered and find peaceful places in society post-Wily, even the ones Wily invented, and why Auto's pages say rebuilt or reacquired (since there's no way to tell in each case unless specifically stated which actually happened). I also don't agree with the statement that the R9 masters were not modified for battle. We know Wily worked on each directly, "fixing" them, and while we can't say for sure what exactly that entailed for each, it is quite possible that their newfound battle skills came as a result of that encounter, seeing as none of them were built specifically for fighting initially.

Quote
Oh yeah, that's something I've been meaning to ask.  Or something I already asked, but forgot the answer.  Was Mr. X a real person that Dr. Wily stole the identity of, or was he just someone that Dr. Wily made up?  I think most people assume the second, but I feel the first is a bit more plausible, since you probably couldn't get enough good robot inventors to trust some random stranger who just appeared one day and said he was having a contest.  But who knows?

Mr. X was a made-up alias, along with his X Foundation. When the World Robot Union was formed sometime after R5, Wily posed as this mysterious eccentric rich recluse, donated a bunch of money, and suggested they hold a tournament to 'encourage' robot engineering. Being politicians I suppose, they took the money and jumped all over that idea. Even in their world, money talks.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #230 on: January 26, 2009, 06:21:57 PM
Thanks for the info.  Good to know.  No doubt they were made by Wily and Light, then.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #231 on: January 27, 2009, 01:22:01 AM
Mr. X was a made-up alias, along with his X Foundation. When the World Robot Union was formed sometime after R5, Wily posed as this mysterious eccentric rich recluse, donated a bunch of money, and suggested they hold a tournament to 'encourage' robot engineering. Being politicians I suppose, they took the money and jumped all over that idea. Even in their world, money talks.
That reminds me... Have you read any books that explain where Dr. Wily gets all that money when he's a wanted criminal?  I imagined he put his armies together slowly, at first gathering only a few discarded robots that could pull off bank heists while Wily hid in the shadows, then making large purchases from a bogus shadow company for more materials, including many battle robots, and bribing a bunch of contractors to help get the Skull Castle put together.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #232 on: January 27, 2009, 02:54:14 AM
Crystalman was a means of getting Wily money. 

... maybe he steals Oilman again and again?

Edit: To do my part in getting this thread back on track:
Old fanon is that Eddy was made by Dr. Cossack.  This wa sbecause of Bob and George and the huge impact it had.  I constantly had to remind people that it was just a webcomic.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #233 on: January 27, 2009, 03:20:59 AM
Edit: To do my part in getting this thread back on track:
Old fanon is that Eddy was made by Dr. Cossack.  This wa sbecause of Bob and George and the huge impact it had.  I constantly had to remind people that it was just a webcomic.

I remember you mentioning that in one of your guides. When I first saw Eddie, I had no idea what the crap he was, just that he was the one robot in MM4 not trying to kill me.

Speaking of MM4--since I could only play it through the Anniversary Collection and had practically no Internet, I didn't know Kalinka wasn't a young woman until much later. (And I thought maybe Cossack had trapped her somewhere so she couldn't help Megaman, but that was thanks to not knowing the ending)

Oh, and about AC--its manual had an advert for the Megaman cartoon in the back. Thanks to Mega's stance, I thought he was younger (15-16) than he actually looks (21).



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #234 on: January 27, 2009, 07:00:35 AM
Oh, and about AC--its manual had an advert for the Megaman cartoon in the back. Thanks to Mega's stance, I thought he was younger (15-16) than he actually looks (21).
You know, that's the odd thing about the cartoon.  He looks like he's 21, but if you read some of the advertising material ... I get the notion that he's supposed to be a teen.  I couldn't tell you where I saw that, though.

For the longest time I drew Eddy as he appeared in the MM4 manual ... as a one-armed freak!  It was such a wierd design. 


Offline Zan

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Reply #235 on: January 27, 2009, 05:51:33 PM
Quote
where Dr. Wily gets all that money

SWISS BANK
19-871-217



Offline Align

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Reply #236 on: January 27, 2009, 06:06:20 PM
Yes but bank doesn't mean infinite money.

I suppose he could've pulled similar tricks in the past though.



Offline RMX

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Reply #237 on: January 28, 2009, 12:42:44 AM
Were those rumors about Axl getting his own series been mentioned yet? Because that thing spawned awesome discussions.



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #238 on: January 28, 2009, 12:56:14 AM
Metal Gear Axl
Mega Man Axl
Mega Man X7
Mega Man ZX Advent

Which one is true?

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Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #239 on: January 28, 2009, 12:34:20 PM
You know, that's the odd thing about the cartoon.  He looks like he's 21, but if you read some of the advertising material ... I get the notion that he's supposed to be a teen.  I couldn't tell you where I saw that, though.

For the longest time I drew Eddy as he appeared in the MM4 manual ... as a one-armed freak!  It was such a wierd design. 

Ah, this is taking me back again.  I remember that before I played any of the games, I read the manuals for all 6 NES games on the internet, which were only available as text transcriptions at the time.  The Mega Man 4 transcript was really bad, as whoever uploaded it had accidentally pasted over several pages with repeats of earlier pages, so I couldn't read the whole thing.  Ironically, they had also added a preface about how there were no mistakes except those that were in the manual already, and there were also some unnecessary "No duh" comments added to the explanation of the control pad.

So I didn't learn about "Flip-Top" until I read the Mega Man 5 manual.  I mused that for as much as the TV show played up Dr. Wily as the main bad guy, he was hardly in any of the games: In 6 it was Mr. X; in 5 it was Protoman; in 4 it was Dr. Cossack; in 3 it was... Hmm, who was it again?

Later I caught the TV series' run on Fox Family, where I finally saw that green, snub-topped Eddie they used as well as the gray form of Darkman, which I now believe were so there wouldn't be so many red characters at once (Protoman, Cutman, Rush).  I didn't even notice because of my red-green colorblindness.  The regular Eddie still looks a little too tall to me.

I also remember when I realized that Fox Family was trimming the episodes for time, because they kept cutting Mandi Paugh's favorite lines!  I kept going back and forth over my VHS recordings, wondering "When does he say 'lunar-powered robot'?"

I suppose he could've pulled similar tricks in the past though.
I'm getting the feeling that the people of MegaMan's world are gullible in the extreme.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #240 on: January 28, 2009, 11:52:39 PM
Quote
3 it was... Hmm, who was it again

In 3 it was just supposed to be a mystery.  MM3 was my first MM game, and it was just released .... but even then I was just like "oh, I guess he didn't reform after all, then".  I dunno, I guess it plays better to Japanese kids than to me as a kid. 

It's kind of annoying that so many of the MM games have the same plot.  But I do like the numbered robot masters.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #241 on: January 29, 2009, 12:45:50 AM
My first sightings of the Megaman and X series were in elementary school. An old magazine had MM4's box artwork displayed after an article about video games--and I got the impression that Megaman was some really short older guy (damn midgilicious box art). As for X, that was Xtreme 2--some nice high schooler (the bus was and still is full of asshats) let me play it. Zero was just some faceless, long-haired, sword-wielding, bike-riding entity and Wire Sponge was a deranged robo-chicken (think Scratch from AoStH).

Thank God I got that all cleared up later on.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #242 on: January 29, 2009, 03:18:57 AM
In 3 it was just supposed to be a mystery.
I know, that's why I couldn't "remember" who the bad guy was in the manual.  :)

Even knowing that about the story, it's still pretty confusing that after beating the regular 8 bosses, you suddenly have to revisit 4 areas and fight some more.  I mean shouldn't Rock have at least recovered all the "elements" if he had liberated every zone once?  But now the old levels are different for some reason, and there's this new emergency regarding a bunch of robots that all look like this hulking monstrosity and happen to have the MegaRockMan 2 powers.  Or it's just one robot, and he keeps getting rebuilt really fast.  See, I'm still pretty hazy about the whole Doc Man thing.

Anyway, my point about the manuals was that if you read only the opening stories of certain games and never reach the end of them, you'd think the series was full of new big bads vying for power and Dr. Wily was pretty much forgotten.

Zero was just some faceless, long-haired, sword-wielding, bike-riding entity
Isn't he though?  ISN'T HE?

Wire Sponge was a deranged robo-chicken (think Scratch from AoStH).
...Sure you're not thinking of Overdrive Ostrich?  Wire Sponge I might mistake for a flower monster or a pineapple or a bag of straw or something.  But Overdrive Ostrich is built just like Scratch.  He even has Sonic in his name.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #243 on: January 29, 2009, 03:25:33 AM
...Sure you're not thinking of Overdrive Ostrich?  Wire Sponge I might mistake for a flower monster or a pineapple or a bag of straw or something.  But Overdrive Ostrich is built just like Scratch.  He even has Sonic in his name.

Pretty sure; I couldn't see Wire Sponge's sprite very well, thanks to the bright sunlight streaming through the windows and directly onto the screen. (That also might explain why I kept dying in his stage.)



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #244 on: January 29, 2009, 07:44:40 AM
Quote
Even knowing that about the story, it's still pretty confusing that after beating the regular 8 bosses, you suddenly have to revisit 4 areas and fight some more.  I mean shouldn't Rock have at least recovered all the "elements" if he had liberated every zone once?  But now the old levels are different for some reason, and there's this new emergency regarding a bunch of robots that all look like this hulking monstrosity and happen to have the MegaRockMan 2 powers.  Or it's just one robot, and he keeps getting rebuilt really fast.  See, I'm still pretty hazy about the whole Doc Man thing.

He did retrieve the elements the first time.  The second time, and I can't be sure but I do think I am right, is Doctor Wily causing chaos to keep MM distracted while he steals Gamma.  You can tell that Wily's no longer concerned with protecting his identity as Doc Robot is mimicking his old robots.

As for Doc Robot ... you'll have to look him up, I'm afraid.  I dunno too much offhand.  Maybe one of the wikis can help you on him. 

Doc Robot's levels are really the bases for the "second castle" levels seen in 4-6.  It helps to remember it that way.


Offline Acrosurge

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Reply #245 on: January 29, 2009, 08:57:29 PM
You know, even if Classic is less my forte than the other sidescrollers, I'm more than happy to jump on Zan when I feel that he's muddying the factual with the speculative (you should see our AIM logs).
When studying Mega Man lore, I like to read a combination of your opinions, as well as stuff from Zan and Marshmallow Man.  You guys are like the checks and balances (a board of peers as it were) of Mega Man scholarship.  This filters all the information and speculation out there into the closest approximation of "truth" as we're going to see regarding a universe fictional game characters.



Enjoy life,
Acrosurge


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #246 on: January 30, 2009, 12:50:19 AM
Doc Robot's levels are really the bases for the "second castle" levels seen in 4-6.
That's what I thought, although it's strange that those levels were generally more difficult than the actual castle.  At least you could save after them, unlike the other dual castles.

Crystalman was a means of getting Wily money. 
"Diamond Man?  The robot who shoots diamond missiles that explode into four diamonds?"
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 06:26:54 AM by Bag of Magic Food »



Offline TDOMMX

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Reply #247 on: June 01, 2009, 05:33:51 PM
I don't remember whether I was on that game's credits or not - but I was in close contact with TDOMMX back then.

But the lead translator was Boco.

So, "Zero died in vain [like a dog]" became "You'll soon be reunited with your DEAR ZERO!". Whoddathunk eh?

I think that wasn't in the patched ROM itself, since before the ROM was released someone who knew more Japanese came in and debunked that and some other fanon unproperly labelled as such.

Wily paranoia was in full rage with "recent" gamebook info concering Serges and Isoc, so everybody was like "IT WAS SOMEBODY ELSE PULLING SIGMA'S STRINGS BEGINNING WITH X1!".

Editing-wise [altering the ROM structure to accomodate the different chunks of text], though, I think he did a good job. For what's written in the translation I can't vouch since I don't even remember the retranslated script and because of what I said above, but it was an honest effort. Both Xtremes were in the "ToDo" list, but then Boco quit the Community and TDOMMX got that thing we all need to get sooner or later: a life.
Heyya, Rodrigo.  It's been a long time.  I haven't heard from you in ages.  Ever since I reformatted my old PC and didn't get around to reinstalling ICQ, as a matter of fact...  Lame excuse, I know.  But you're right about me getting a life... sorta.  I now have two Computer Science degrees and hold a minor in Human Relations.  Well, that, I became a diehard anime fan for a good decade, started programming professionally, and had some semblance of a social life...

In any event, Darkside Translations is back, and I've posted a little writeup about what happened back then on our About page.  I'll give you the non-abridged version here since I know you and think marshmallow man and the others deserve to know the full story:

When I was playing through the Megaman X series, I often found myself thinking I could do a better localization.  This was especially true in X2 and X3, where characters were arbitrarily renamed (the most annoying being changing "X" to "Mega Man", which confirmed to me that the marketing department at Capcom USA couldn't tell the characters apart - and they still can't, if you check the back of the X8 box...).  I didn't know Japanese, so I tried to see if I could find someone who was willing to translate the game for me.  I was a pretty good writer in high school, so my plan was to recruit a fellow Megaman fan, have them do the translation, and handle the editing and hacking myself (incidentally, my SNES hacking skills are self-taught, and as Rodrigo noted, I was pretty good at it).

As you already know, Boco was the one who answered my call.  To this day, I don't know his/her gender, but ended up using "she" for convenience because I kept getting the image of an anime fangirl from him/her.  S/he didn't mind (or at least didn't object).  Anyway, she was very enthusiastic about it and offered to help for the entire series up to X6.  She only ended up doing the first two scripts before we ended up getting out of touch, not unlike how I unceremoniously fell out of contact with Rodrigo.

Boco was in the process of learning Japanese and begged me repeatedly for a translation checker to verify her work.  Of course, she was the only person who responded to my request, so I had little luck granting hers.  I don't recall if I was aware of places like Romhacking.net or if they even existed back then.  Either way, no one got back to me, so I decided to do the best I could with what I had.

I recall having very odd arguments with Boco, such as whether Protoman was genuinely evil to begin with (she insisted he was and even wrote a fanfic where he branded Dr. Light as something akin to a brainwashing bastard).  In any case, when Boco posted her script on The Megaman Network, I made a point of finishing up my hacking & editing and releasing the retranslation to the masses, dubbed "Megaman X Complete".  My plan was to collect feedback, integrate them into the rom, and re-release it alongside a purist version, "Rockman X Special", which retained the original Japanese names to satisfy what I perceived as a purist streak in her.

This was not to be.  Though people were initially enthusiastic about the retranslation, that sentiment quickly soured, and everyone began to pan the release - Boco included.  Boco was not happy with how I modified her translation, and everyone else was unhappy since some parts read like a yaoi fanfic (which I tried to curb, but Boco insisted was accurate - I distinctly recall her stressing that Sigma actually hit on X before the final battle, and I gave her the benefit of the doubt...).  I eventually retracted the release and made a promise, both to Boco and to myself:  "Megaman X2 Complete" (or whatever I decided to call it) would never see the light of day until I had done the original game justice and released a "Rockman X Special" we could both be proud of.  And I have not forgotten.

Over the past seven years, I have worked with a variety of translation groups on several projects to learn what it really takes to do a good localization job.  I have worked on game translations: Ys II Complete and Ys -The Oath in Felghana- for Falcom Fan Translations; as well as visual novels: Haru no Ashioto, Wind -a breath of heart-, and ef -the first tale- for No Name Losers.  In fact, the ef project was what led me to meet Darkside's current lead translator.  Last summer, I finally thought I was finally ready to spearhead another translation project.  I was an administrative assistant at the time and occupied my downtime translating documents from French into English (oui, je parle le français couramment).

Let's skip ahead to the present day.  I mean that literally - this morning, Darkside Translations released its localization of the trial version of Rosenkreuzstilette, a Megaman-like game that I quickly came to love early last year.  I refused to release a translation that relied on a single translator, however skilled s/he may have been, and last December, I got more help than I could have ever asked for.  And I have Romhacking.net and a few extremely talented individuals to thank (all of which are credited on our staff page).  The English localization (penned by yours truly) is based on the full-pass interpretations of two Japanese translators and was edited round-table style to ensure its accuracy.  Additionally, I had four German-speakers on the team to guarantee the quality of the game's German flavor text (which was originally "Germish", as our resident German native called it...).

So, I submit this for your approval:  the Rosenkreuzstilette English Trial.  I'll let you decide if we - referring to both Darkside Translations and to myself personally - truly learned anything these past few years.  Feel free to check it out and let us know what you think.

It feels good to finally tell that story in its entirety...  And it feels even better to be back.  I hope you'll all be happy to have me.

And before I go:  Rodrigo, you were credited as a Playtester, as I recall.  The first in the list, if memory serves.  Either way, it's great to hear from you again.

This is TDOMMX signing out.


Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #248 on: June 01, 2009, 05:42:14 PM
I'm happy that you're here in the general MM community again, even if RPM is your first visit. ^^

Off-Topic:
I will personally go through the RKS translation and give my own thoughts on it.
After all, I'm the girl who works on the guides and screenshots (and soon video clips).
If you want to hit someone on the head for some mistakes, private message me. >U<

Good to see you here. ^^

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Offline TDOMMX

  • Darksquid Overlord
  • Cyberelf
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    • Posts: 11
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  • I won't give up.
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Reply #249 on: June 01, 2009, 06:06:56 PM
WOW!  That was a quick reply.  I'm honored.  And thanks for the mention earlier.   You learning about the patch here sort of short-circuits what I did in the RKS:F thread, but it's all good.

This is TDOMMX signing out.