Ancient Theories/Fanon

The Great Gonzo · 95729

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #200 on: January 25, 2009, 02:22:32 AM
No buts on Ariga, he's unofficial just like all the other licenced sources.  Really well drawn, but unoficial. I'm focused on that because he's the biggest non-sequiter in your points.  Not that your other points are all that good.  And there's plenty of robots Wily has stolen that are then just a part of his forces.  Even the MM1 robots don't stay Light's forever ... you fight them again and again in the series.  That doesn't mean they become "mostly Wily's".  And what about Cossack's robots?  We never see them back in "camp Cossack" again.  We really have no idea if Cossack ever uses them again, although it's fair to say he probably rebuilt them for legit uses.  We never see Plant man or Centaurman used for his legit purposes.  Does that mean, after MM6, he's never used for a legit purpose again?

Just because we never see them in their jobs doesn't mean they never go back.  How many times have we seen Gutsman as a good guy in the series?  SAR and PU.  And not even in a canon part in PU, either.  As opposed to a bad guy?  MM1, PB, PF, WW, the canon part of PU ... MM7 and MM2, if you count Gots Dozer and MK2 ... For all we know, the world of Rockman has a whole bunch of Topmen all doing their job and Wily just steals one when he wants one.  MM1 had several Gutsmen in the last Wily level, so it's not like the idea hasn't been thrown out there canotically speaking.  The fact that we never see the MM3 guys in Light's lab after MM3 is a complete non sequiter.  It has nothing to do with whether they were made "mostly" by Wily or not.  It proves nothing. 

The fact that we meet all of the robot masters as villain 90% of the time is just the nature of the series.  We never meet Pharaohman in a friendly way in the canon material.  Or Astroman.  But that doesn't mean they are now "mostly Wily's"in that they were "mostly" created by him.

Your ultimate point is moot.  I said they were stolen ... you're not proving me wrong or poking holes in my statement at all by going on and on about how they're supposed to be "mostly Wily's."  At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. 


Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 16013
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #201 on: January 25, 2009, 02:55:32 AM
They were made mostly by Wily Correct? Who's to say they weren't in on the plan all along? playing along with light until Wily was ready?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3439
    • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Reply #202 on: January 25, 2009, 03:06:58 AM
I'd just like to throw my two cents in (and cringe as this thread slowly turns back into "What separates MM from X?"): Say Mr. Ariga uses some canon material in his work. Said work is accepted as canon. Then Capcom changes their mind and that bit of canon gets retconned. Now what? You really can't use third-party material in certain canon debates, that's what.

Sadly, the MM3 manual was worded in such a way that I didn't know Wily was working with Light until much later. But I've accepted the theory that Set 3 was a collaboration, albeit sided with Wily the entire time.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #203 on: January 25, 2009, 03:12:05 AM
I dunno about the "mostly" part of that sentence, but they were definately working for Wily until he was ready.  That's why Mega's able to come in just as Wily steals Gamma.  Dunno how "in on" the plan they mighta been ... would Wily tell them his big idea, or would he just order them to cause chaos and not reveal his identity?  The result is kind of the same ...

Protoman's motives are more interesting in MM3 than the robot master's.


Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 16013
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #204 on: January 25, 2009, 03:14:32 AM
Id like to know the deal behind the Breakman disguise.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #205 on: January 25, 2009, 03:18:09 AM
Id like to know the deal behind the Breakman disguise.
It's very debatable, but unused sprites show him turning into Breakman.  And Master Weapons just bounce off him as Breakman.  His shot is also bigger than normal (even if the damage it causes is unchanged).  It points to the idea that it was a power-uped version of Protoman.  A very lame powered-up version.

That's another old fanon.  That it was a really lame disguise. 


Offline Flame

  • The obsessive
  • RPM Soldier
  • ****
    • Posts: 16013
    • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Reply #206 on: January 25, 2009, 03:28:48 AM
I mean, he dons a facemask and a single centered eye, which I SERIOUSLy find a rather bad "power up" when if he has a single centered eye, then he would be lacking depth perception. which wouldnt be all that good in battle would it?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #207 on: January 25, 2009, 03:46:59 AM
I mean, he dons a facemask and a single centered eye, which I SERIOUSLy find a rather bad "power up"
You and me both, man.  I think it's supposed to echo his connection tot he Sniper Joes. 

Maybe they were gonna change his pattern or do something more with that fight, but ... we got what we got.


Offline Slash Man

  • Resistance Member
  • *
    • Posts: 179
    • Gender: Male
  • NES Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Mega Stuff
Reply #208 on: January 25, 2009, 04:24:10 AM
Maybe he just wants to look like another "Average Sniper-Joe (bad pun)" to Mega Man to hide the fact that he's actually humanoid.



Offline Canticleer Blues

  • Never enough Blues fans
  • Net Navi
  • *
    • Posts: 26
    • Gender: Male
  • Looking beyond the horizon...
    • View Profile
Reply #209 on: January 25, 2009, 04:32:13 AM
I wish Inafune would one day get a team and fix RM3 so it can be the way he intended to to be.  I mean, if it really bothers him to the point of it being his least favorite, there's no reason why he couldn't do such a thing; heck, he'd probably make money off it too, so why not?



Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3439
    • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Reply #210 on: January 25, 2009, 04:33:01 AM
Someone on TV Tropes suggested that Breakman was an actual RM whom Protoman shanked. Proto then wore his helmet to his last (MM3 in-game) battle with Megaman,  just for the hell of it.

Sounds like Proto forgot to take his medication that day.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #211 on: January 25, 2009, 04:49:36 AM
I wish Inafune would one day get a team and fix RM3 so it can be the way he intended to to be.  I mean, if it really bothers him to the point of it being his least favorite, there's no reason why he couldn't do such a thing; heck, he'd probably make money off it too, so why not?
Really, some of the things he would have done are obvious.  Like the Controller 2 tricks, Rush's mouth opening when he shoots in Rush Marine, and making Rush Jet more like 4->.  Those are the sort of things that left because the game was rushed and ... now that we know it was, it's rather obvious.

I kind of agree with the sentiment, though.  It's a pity we'llnever get a RR3. 


Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #212 on: January 25, 2009, 01:49:19 PM
Quote
And not even in a canon part in PU, either.

The game's very ending isn't canon?...

Quote
And what about Cossack's robots?  We never see them back in "camp Cossack" again.

The Cossack family is completely different from the Right family in that Right appears in every game, Cossack vanished from the story long ago. Not to mention, Wily's involvement with the Cossack robots to the point that all were given combat upgrades by him and SkullMan/RingMan being his creation. Comparing the mm3 robots to mm1/9 and mm4/6, it is simply a complete break of pattern from other Right robots, making it that much more similar to the treatment of robots created by unimportant people and characters that vanished from the plot.

Quote
although it's fair to say he probably rebuilt them for legit uses.  We never see Plant man or Centaurman used for his legit purposes.  Does that mean, after MM6, he's never used for a legit purpose again?

I never said they weren't used for legit purposes ever again. They are all after all in the robot museum for some explicit purpose. I just said they are not considered part of the Right family. Cossack robots aren't considered part of their family either in later games, only in secondary sources. The mm3 robots don't even have those secondary sources. Four sources and a secondary source go toward mm1/9 being part of the family, Cossack gets a secondary source for his robots being part of his family, the mm3 robots don't have anything to link them to the family.

Also, how about addressing the matter of them being considered Wily numbers, not Right Numbers, despite being created by Dr. Right? Even the mm9 group were labeled DRN after so many DWN came before them. The only difference is whether Wily was involved at all, regardless of exact degree that he was.

Quote
SAR and PU. 

Battle and Chase. GutsMan and IceMan are on Right's side. MM3 robots do not get any coverage except for ShadowMan. Also, mm9 is the fourth source to Right robots as part of the Right family.

Quote
It has nothing to do with whether they were made "mostly" by Wily or not.  It proves nothing. 

I already addressed this twice, I said it didn't apply to the 'degree on which Wily developed them', it applies to 'how they are treated by Capcom and the plot.'

Quote
Your ultimate point is moot.  I said they were stolen ... you're not proving me wrong or poking holes in my statement at all by going on and on about how they're supposed to be "mostly Wily's."  At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

You were talking about who created them, using the argument of 'they're stolen' to say they weren't created by him. Going on about whether or not they're stolen is something we've moved on from long ago: he's stealing his own creations. The initial point is: Wily made them or not, everything above is about a separate discussion whether they're considered to be more Wily's than Right's. Even in your edit of that initial post, you advocate Right as having more involvement than Wily. There's no statement who did more, who did less and if it's equal. Thus the above focuses solely on how they're considered, they're considered to be Wily Numbers.

Everything below here will not focus on that, rather, it'll cover the initial point of which robots Wily created.

It's a well established fact that 6 weren't his. I've never once seen someone say otherwise. For, 2, 3, and I just checked, even 5 (despite a possibility of splitting hairs with ChargeMan's entry), they would be absolutely correct that Wily made them. 7 and 8 are the only truly mixed bags in the entire series. In 4, we generally accept them as Cossack's, but SkullMan/Ringman is the exception, being Wily made. In 3, they're all Right and Wily cooperations, with the only exception being ShadowMan having no involvement from Dr. Right. mm1 and mm9 are two entire sets of Right robots.

If you want to talk about that particular fanon (Wily made all of the boss robots), it lies with mm7, 8, and the notion that Wily was Light's assistant before mm1. Not with mm3.
 



Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3439
    • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Reply #213 on: January 25, 2009, 04:29:19 PM
Quote
but SkullMan is the exception, being Wily made.

WHAT?? I'm pretty sure Cossack made ALL of them--where the hell did that come from?



Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #214 on: January 25, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Skull_Man

Of course, that is at odds with:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041029161838/www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn32.html

but if you look here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041029163356/www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn28.html

Wily also has involvement with PharaohMan.

For the others, Wily is mentioned as giving them combat upgrades. The thing about SkullMan is that he's built for combat from the very beginning.

Well.. actually, I forgot that RingMan is quite the same...

http://www.themmnetwork.com/wiki/index.php?title=Ring_Man

Battle robot by Wily. But...

http://web.archive.org/web/20031230170933/http://www.rockmanvortex.com/rrc/charg/dwn4-5/dwn29.html

Wily altered him during production. It seems they're all Cossack's, but Wily's very very involved.



Offline The Great Gonzo

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 3439
    • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Reply #215 on: January 25, 2009, 06:16:39 PM
Huh. Well, I can honestly say that I hadn't seen any of that information before. Since they all have DCN-XXX in front of their names, I assumed that Cossack built 'em all and Wily stole 'em all.



Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #216 on: January 25, 2009, 06:33:39 PM
DCN "Dr. Cossack Number" is only shown in Ariga's manga as far as I'm aware of. The CD database lists them as DWN. The issue is kinda with when you'd depict them. If they're with Cossack, and Wily's involvement is a mystery still, then DWN-numbering can't be used to introduce them. You'd have to wait until Wily reveals himself before using the DWN-numbering. Ariga has a tradition of showing their numbers along with the names, so, the use of  "DCN" numbers was born out of necessity.



Offline VixyNyan

  • Kind & Generous Fluffy Pillow~
  • RPM Ecchi Princess
  • ****
    • Posts: 9824
    • Gender: Female
  • ♪ Vixylicious Nya Nya~ ♪
    • View Profile
    • Rockman Perfect Memories
Reply #217 on: January 25, 2009, 06:36:49 PM
[obvious] DCN's are cover-ups, so Wily wouldn't be revealed as the last boss, because that would be a spoiler for Rockman 4. [/obvious]

They didn't stick with any of them in the Staff Roll either. ^^

Nintendo 3DS Friend Code: 3480-2506-4200
[DeviantArt|Twitch.tv|Youtube|Fan Work|WiiVC|Character File]
Rock10: Ranking. Rock9: AC, EA, SS, Challenge, Ranking.
(c) Sky Child~                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         


Offline Slash Man

  • Resistance Member
  • *
    • Posts: 179
    • Gender: Male
  • NES Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Mega Stuff
Reply #218 on: January 25, 2009, 08:12:14 PM
I'll only believe an online source if it's Capcom themselves, but it does make sense that Wily would know how to rebuild the DCN's.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #219 on: January 25, 2009, 08:25:52 PM
Whatever, Zan, you just believe what you want, man.  Like I said MUCH earlier, I'll take what Capcom says over what you figure out. 


Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #220 on: January 25, 2009, 09:12:21 PM
Whatever, Zan, you just believe what you want, man.  Like I said MUCH earlier, I'll take what Capcom says over what you figure out. 

You say that is if Capcom isn't the one saying they're made by Right and Wily whilst they're Wily Numbers instead of Right Numbers.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #221 on: January 25, 2009, 09:18:19 PM
You say that is if Capcom isn't the one saying they're made by Right and Wily whilst they're Wily Numbers instead of Right Numbers.
I'll just follow the official material.  I'll leave the leaps of logic to you. 


Offline Zan

  • Master's Unit
  • *
    • Posts: 2040
    • Gender: Male
  • Unpleasable Unhelpful Utopian Totalitarian
    • View Profile
Reply #222 on: January 25, 2009, 09:44:35 PM
I'll just follow the official material.  I'll leave the leaps of logic to you. 

Except the official material states the following:

MM3 robots:
-Right/Wily creations, with exception ShadowMan.
-Dr. Wily Numbers.
-Modified for battle by Wily.
-Working for society before the events of mm3, with exception ShadowMan.
-Always shown on Wily's side after the events of MM3.

MM1/9 robots:
-Right creations.
-Dr. Right Numbers.
-Not modified for battle.
-Working for society before the events of mm1/9.
-Part of Right's family after the events of mm1/9, sometimes some of 1's are shown on Wily's side.

MM4 robots:
-Cossack creations.
-Dr. Wily Numbers.
-Modified for/created for battle by Wily.
-Working for society before the events of mm4, with exceptions.
-Always shown on Wily's side after the events of MM4.

MM2/5 robots:
-Wily creations
-Dr. Wily Numbers
-Created for battle and other tasks for Wily.
-Always shown on Wily's side, with exception of Blues' army.

I don't see where these 'leaps of logic' are. It's quite factual that mm3 robots being Wily/Right are considered quite differently than mm1/9 robots that are fully Right's. Whatever interpretation you attach to that is yours to make.



Offline Gauntlet101010

  • A-Class Hunter
  • *
    • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
    • The Mechanical Maniacs
Reply #223 on: January 25, 2009, 10:00:13 PM
Whtever, man.  You like your logistic leaps.  I can see that now.  I wish you could respect that I wish to follow a more strict interpretation of the material, without wishing to make anything more than very plain leaps in logic, but ... I can't get you to respect my logic any more than you can get me to respect yours.

I'd "agree to disagree", but I don't think you'll allow me even THAT much.


Offline VixyNyan

  • Kind & Generous Fluffy Pillow~
  • RPM Ecchi Princess
  • ****
    • Posts: 9824
    • Gender: Female
  • ♪ Vixylicious Nya Nya~ ♪
    • View Profile
    • Rockman Perfect Memories
Reply #224 on: January 25, 2009, 10:23:40 PM
I can't get you to respect my logic any more than you can get me to respect yours.

I'd "agree to disagree", but I don't think you'll allow me even THAT much.

Spot on, Gauntlet. I share your feelings. >-<

Nintendo 3DS Friend Code: 3480-2506-4200
[DeviantArt|Twitch.tv|Youtube|Fan Work|WiiVC|Character File]
Rock10: Ranking. Rock9: AC, EA, SS, Challenge, Ranking.
(c) Sky Child~