Nintendo Patent Reveals Potential Paradigm Shift in Design

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Offline Solar

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Reply #75 on: January 09, 2009, 10:18:08 PM
but I simply begin to miss the way games (or pretty much everything else entertaimentwise) they were back in the 90s.

Don't we all?


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Offline Jericho

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Reply #76 on: January 09, 2009, 10:19:07 PM
Bah, to me, such stuff is uncessary. And Nintendo apparently fails to get Star Fox done right since 64 anyway. I would have instantly bought a DS solely for Command but when I heard that you do everything with that stupid pen, I pretty much lost faith in Nintendo. Maybe I'm just to ignorant to innovation, but from my standpoint, Nintendo is pushing me away and towards the competion because they seek new ways of playing games. I got a PSP instead of a DS and a 360 instead of a Wii, simply because on these I can still play it the way I want games to be.

May I ask you a question though? How far into the future do you see yourself playing games in the same manner over and over again? You'll probably tell me as long as you can, but admit it every now and again, there are some interesting ways that typical control pad games can be freshened up. This is what Nintendo is trying to get right at this time. Execution is only in the infancy stages (hence so many big stinkers and waggle/touch fests where normal controls would have been fine) but the results are already in though, more people think that it's better to have an interesting interface and gameplay than bigger and better everything.

My opinion is however that we should get a balance of big highly enjoyable games and great new ways to play/enhance gameplay. That's a pipe dream as long as everyone sees themselves on two sides of the spectrum instead of just gamers.

Oh, I think we all do at times. 

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Offline Solar

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Reply #77 on: January 09, 2009, 10:20:45 PM
My opinion is however that we should get a balance of big highly enjoyable games and great new ways to play/enhance gameplay. That's a pipe dream as long as everyone sees themselves on two sides of the spectrum instead of just gamers.

Agreed, the whole casual/hardcore is what I hate the most about this gen.


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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #78 on: January 09, 2009, 10:24:42 PM
Agreed, the whole casual/hardcore is what I hate the most about this gen.

It's just a small part of a whole mess of social problems and conflicts between differently-minded people that has been brewing since the late 80's, early 90's.

I don't know if the pot will overflow, or if everyone will collectively turn the heat down, but mind you, this is nothing new. Sure, gamers have been competitive (oh, I'm bad about this), but the heights of elitism that people are now trying to paint themselves with beats all I've ever seen.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #79 on: January 09, 2009, 10:26:36 PM
I mean, don't get me wrong.  I 100% Love my Wii.  I have more games for it than I do my 360 & PS3 combined.  However, do I enjoy it more than my SNES or N64?  Probably not. 

I mean, take Mario Kart Wii for example.  They tried new ideas.  Some I liked and some I hated.  It's by no means a better game than Mario Kart 64, and it never will be (MK64 bias aside).  But, they do have to try to be innovative.  It's how the industry grows, and the industry always has to grow.  I'll sometimes agree with it and I sometimes won't, but I understand the need to try to grow. 



Offline Jericho

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Reply #80 on: January 09, 2009, 10:34:09 PM
That's truly not even the best way to emphasize this issue HyperSonic. Remember the 90s that people so fondly note for great and varied experiences in gaming? Around that time, the main video gaming demographic was aged 6~16 (don't quote me completely on this, I'll update with relevant info), i.e. people were developing games aimed mainly at kids who were too young to judge games for having off pixels, bad art or not enough Mode 7/Blast Processing. So while you still had your crap, the gems were true gems that ANYONE could appreciate.

Fast forward to now where the target is a primarily older dominated group age 18~34. Now this group believes themselves to be entitled to a certain type and degree of game at all times. They might have existed in the past before, but now due to their profound numbers the market has no choice but to cater to them more if they hope to make a profit. This in turn leads to stifled variety on top of a lot of other issues when the elitism starts dictating what makes a good game period. It's disgusting to say the least and I have a profound resentment for this because it's these people that are killing gaming.

I mean, don't get me wrong.  I 100% Love my Wii.  I have more games for it than I do my 360 & PS3 combined.  However, do I enjoy it more than my SNES or N64?  Probably not. 

I mean, take Mario Kart Wii for example.  They tried new ideas.  Some I liked and some I hated.  It's by no means a better game than Mario Kart 64, and it never will be (MK64 bias aside).  But, they do have to try to be innovative.  It's how the industry grows, and the industry always has to grow.  I'll sometimes agree with it and I sometimes won't, but I understand the need to try to grow. 

Honestly, it's that need to grow and evolve that I've always found interesting with the video game market primarily, but al this gen has shown me is that it's going to take QUITE some time before anyone can hope to top the SNES/Genesis or N64/PSX/Saturn days.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #81 on: January 09, 2009, 10:39:20 PM
Honestly, it's that need to grow and evolve that I've always found interesting with the video game market primarily, but al this gen has shown me is that it's going to take QUITE some time before anyone can hope to top the SNES/Genesis or N64/PSX/Saturn days.

LoL, asking the gaming industry of today to top the games we grew up with and loved is a VERY hard task.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #82 on: January 09, 2009, 10:41:47 PM
I am truly of the belief, nostalgia aside even, that those games were infinitely more creative and daring than most things we've seen so far.

The potential is there to surpass it all though. In the meantime, just pick and play everything, find something you like and compliment the makers of the gems, why is that so hard to do?



Offline Saber

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Reply #83 on: January 09, 2009, 10:42:29 PM
LoL, asking the gaming industry of today to top the games we grew up with and loved is a VERY hard task.

Nowadays I get the feeling that games were made with more love and care back in the old days than they are today.





Offline Jericho

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Reply #84 on: January 09, 2009, 10:48:14 PM
Nowadays I get the feeling that games were made with more love and care back in the old days than they are today.

Of. Course. They. Were!

Nowadays, the gaming industry can be compared to the movie industry in the idea that all focus goes to one type or particular game and the stragglers are just shoddy works left to die. There is no amazing creativity, just "what the [tornado fang] can I rally off of in order to turn a quick buck?" Sure, you can say that it's the nature of all business, but something about the video game industry sounds like it should have already found a way above this.



Offline RMX

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Reply #85 on: January 09, 2009, 10:57:13 PM
It's more controversial than innovative, if at all.
Sounds like "lol we can't make entertaining enough games/good enough tutorials/intuitive enough systems for casuals to get hooked and PLAY them, so we'll just give them a ride with all the tricks. LOL IT PRINTS MONEY"

Quote
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.  A game is about one thing and one thing ONLY.  Having FUN.  It's Entertainment.  It's Leisure Time activity.

I respectfully disagree to your disagreement, PB. Games are ONE kind of entertainment among MANY.
I think a book shouldn't turn into a movie by itself just because I find one chapter to be a [tornado fang]ing pain in the ass just to get to the page in which Dumbledore dies. A movie shouldn't morph into a video game just because it's not keeping me entertained. Why should a video game turn into a movie? (in during MGS4 jokes)
If you think you are going to whine because you used your money on a game because it's difficult and you want to check out the cutscenes: a) You may be 4 years old. Wait 15 years. b) Wait for the [tornado fang]ing movie, or rent Advent Children.

And about the cheating/checking out walkthroughs, it's just a matter of pride, but it's annoying. It's as if the "Winners don't do drugs" slogan was changed into "Many winners do drugs. Here, have some pills". Of course you know winners do drugs, yourself included, but do you think it's as easy to just have fun winning or losing by your own, drug-less means? (you'll probably say yes because you or someone else has a MIND OF STEEL). Also, there's the thing that there will probably be stuff to 'outdrug' drugs themselves (huh...player created content, perhaps). Why add redundant layers of drugs? (damn this metaphor is awesome)

tl;dr communism, it could work, but why bother afterwards?



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #86 on: January 09, 2009, 11:11:21 PM
Nowadays I get the feeling that games were made with more love and care back in the old days than they are today.

It's possible, yeah.  But those were also simpler times, in terms of gaming.  I don't know if say, the classic MM series has more love & care than say the Zero Series.  I just enjoy them more.  I enjoy them more than the X series even.  I don't know if it means their was more love and care, but it's possible cause they had a lot less to work with then today.

As I've said before, I really do believe that the net made a lot of gamers an inpatient lot.  Nowadays, we know almost everything about certain games before they come out.  Not to mention so many sites that rate the games and everything like that.  I mean, Sonic Unleashed is a good example of that.  The game is rated poorly, from what I understand.  But I tried it anyway and I loved it.   However, a lot of gamers tend to foolishly base their opinion of a game based on the opinions/reviews of others, and I think "that's no good!"

Nowadays, the gaming industry can be compared to the movie industry in the idea that all focus goes to one type or particular game and the stragglers are just shoddy works left to die. There is no amazing creativity, just "what the [tornado fang] can I rally off of in order to turn a quick buck?" Sure, you can say that it's the nature of all business, but something about the video game industry sounds like it should have already found a way above this.

I tend to disagree here.  Despite my complaining about Hollywood and their utter lack of creativity, there are still sparks of hope amidst all the shame.  A perfect example of this is Pixar Studios.  Pixar, in my honest opinion, is the best movie studio out there today.  They make NOTHING but great movies, each one of them unique and a gem.  WALL-E was my 2nd favorite movie of last year, only beaten by The Dark Knight.  WALL-E was a gamble, due to the movie having no real speech during the first half of it, and it's considered a kids movie.  But, it was sheer brilliance and a masterpiece of a flim.

Sometimes we get an Okami or something like that.  Hell, Ninja Lou tells me of this Sega game, Valkyrie Chronicles, that's supposedly an excellent game that no one's buying.  In the long run, that's what I think Nintendo is trying to do, in terms of being creative.  I just look at Super Mario Galaxy to see the amount of love that was put into it.  It's not for everyone, but the Level Designs, the Music, and all of that are simply beautiful to me.  Yes, the Wii has an ample amount of [parasitic bomb] put forth on it's system by companies looking to make a cheap buck.  However, there are also the Zack & Wiki's, the Boom Blox, the No More Heroes, and the Secret Rings games that come out occansionally.

I respectfully disagree to your disagreement, PB. Games are ONE kind of entertainment among MANY.
I think a book shouldn't turn into a movie by itself just because I find one chapter to be a [tornado fang]ing pain in the ass just to get to the page in which Dumbledore dies. A movie shouldn't morph into a video game just because it's not keeping me entertained. Why should a video game turn into a movie? (in during MGS4 jokes)

Exactly.  It's one kind of entertainment among many.  Your statement does not disprove my point.  My point still stands that at the end of the game, you have to ask youself, "Did I Have Fun With It?"  It's the same question you have to ask yourself after reading a book or watching a movie. 

Quote
And about the cheating/checking out walkthroughs, it's just a matter of pride, but it's annoying. It's as if the "Winners don't do drugs" slogan was changed into "Many winners do drugs. Here, have some pills". Of course you know winners do drugs, yourself included, but do you think it's as easy to just have fun winning or losing by your own, drug-less means? (you'll probably say yes because you or someone else has a MIND OF STEEL). Also, there's the thing that there will probably be stuff to 'outdrug' drugs themselves (huh...player created content, perhaps). Why add redundant layers of drugs? (damn this metaphor is awesome)

Pride is one thing, but pride carried too far is foolishness.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the point of cheating.  I mean, I was just having this conversation with Lou yesterday about people who master the absolute cheapest way to beat someone in the Capcom Vs. Fighting Games, like the person who used the Cyclops infinite in X-Men vs. Street Fighter, or the God Tier in MvsC2.  There's no real sense of pride in either playing these people or even beating them. 



Offline Jericho

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Reply #87 on: January 09, 2009, 11:15:28 PM
...Valkyrie Chronicles...

VALKRYIA CHRONICLES. Get it right! (I have to defend this brilliant game one way or another. XD)

Also, you actually didn't disagree with what I was saying before about my movie industry = video game industry comparison, you fleshed it out further than I did, and I completely agree.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #88 on: January 09, 2009, 11:30:39 PM
That's the bridge we now have to cross with video games.

And it's not so much that the internet has made us picky, as much as it is that we are now older, more capable, but with less time to dedicate to mastering any one particular game. You then hit a game (let's just continue using Sonic Unleashed) where it's now glaringly obvious that some parts of the game clash with the player (which is often). Or, say a game like LoZ: Twilight Princess. Fun, yes, but for only one 100% playthrough, and even then, it's way too easy. Then again, you could have a game like Metroid Prime 3 where you feel like you could Game Over at any time, and you can't save just anywhere like LoZ.

The disconnect is when the games are no longer of the same quality. Subjective enjoyment aside in terms of cast or aesthetics, there are now a number of games that don't even equal their predecessors (some are even worse, Starfox Command compared to Starfox Assault, or the dungeon designs in LoZ:TP compared to LoZ:WW). This drop in quality was unfortunately timed alongside the execution of the Big 3's new attempt at mass appeal, causing finger-pointing.

This is not to say great games aren't still being made. Personally, Mega Man 9 and Super Mario Galaxy (while not necessarily in my Top ___) have far outshone a lot of older games. There have also been plenty of wacky ideas that have taken off (Patapon, Katamari Damacy, Pikmin, Puzzle Quest) alongside a number of new series that are still fairly traditional (Halo, Kingdom Hearts, Tales Of, etc.).

It's the quality of the game that counts. It's why people are sharing their opinions over the entire internet; we're exchanging information in hopes that it will progress our pasttime further, especially after aggravating laments over "the games that could have been", and the buyer's remorse that follows (which has lead to increased piracy).

I would call into question how effective this has been, though, seeing as how we can't get ONE Sonic game that plays like a Genesis game, or a Star Fox game to play like the first and best 2 entries into the series.



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #89 on: January 09, 2009, 11:42:43 PM
my opinion on this matter: i don't care. if it's there, whatever. i may take a look, i may not. what i can say, though, is that complaining about something that you don't ever have to use is just as ignorant as PS3 fanboys bitching when they lose an exclusive. it's something to make everyone happy. it's a win-win situation. it's time to get off your high horse and realize that it shouldn't affect you at all.

DICE has actually made video walkthroughs for each level in Mirror's Edge available on XBL and i assume PSN. i haven't checked them out myself, for the catch here is that they cost money. $1 per level. Ninty isn't DICE, i know, but is it too farfetched to think that Ninty might not make this mode accessible right away? this system could be a patch via WiiWare, might cost some amount of Wii Points, or just be hidden within the options menu.

i'm led to believe "casuals" don't check game options before or during when they play games. hell, i imagine most "hardcores" don't either. and as we all know, no one reads the manuals. i wouldn't be surprised if some people couldn't even find the option to turn the mode on.


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #90 on: January 09, 2009, 11:53:46 PM
my opinion on this matter: i don't care.


So they're considering including video walkthroughs.  Zipadee-doo-dah.  Oh, what's that, it's an incredible disaster that the player can jump in in the middle of one?

Then DON'T USE IT.  It's as simple a concept as a blue bomber veteran not choosing Easy Mode in a MegaMan ZX game.  It's not that ground-breaking, folks.  This is targeted at people who either need a hand or are just plain bored/shameless.  If you fall into none of those, then it shouldn't concern you.  I thought the hardcore gamers were supposed to be good at figuring out menu options?

The disconnect is when the games are no longer of the same quality. Subjective enjoyment aside in terms of cast or aesthetics, there are now a number of games that don't even equal their predecessors (some are even worse, Starfox Command compared to Starfox Assault, or the dungeon designs in LoZ:TP compared to LoZ:WW). This drop in quality was unfortunately timed alongside the execution of the Big 3's new attempt at mass appeal, causing finger-pointing.

This is not to say great games aren't still being made. Personally, Mega Man 9 and Super Mario Galaxy (while not necessarily in my Top ___) have far outshone a lot of older games.
This post just proves how subjective gaming is.  For as much as I wish Star Fox Command had a traditional control option, there is NO WAY I would call it worse than Assault, quite the opposite.  Assault was by far the worst game of the franchise to me.  And I'm none too fond of Command's art style, I just truly believe it plays better.  Likewise I do not see any advantage design-wise of either TP or WW dungeons over the other, they are both very expansive and engaging, but neither are superior to the other on any objective scale that I can imagine (and I'm trying to set my own preferences aside; I'll admit I prefer TP for style reasons).

I don't know if it means their was more love and care, but it's possible cause they had a lot less to work with then today.
Well, it's a fact, there IS a lot more work to game creation today.  But I don't find the old superior to the new in that kind of "Classic vs ZX" (so sue me, I think Zero-series could have done better) way.  IMO they both have their own unique charm.  And they both have their low points, too.  Even the oldies aren't perfect, if Classic MegaMan selection was limited to, say, 4-6, it would carry a lot less weight with me.

To some degree I think that format restrictions, which technology is more and more breaking away from, can actually contribute to design.  Speaking from experience on RM2K here: When you're getting creative, and you're given a box, one of the most exciting ways to work is figuring out how to break it.  Hell, that's how we wound up with the now-traditional boss halls; they thought they made the stages too big for the NES to handle normally (turned out to not be the case anyway).  When you take that box away, for some people it can make it harder to get the juices flowing.  More than once there have been complaints about how as games get more realistic they also often get more generic.  I don't think that's any coincidence.

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Offline Align

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Reply #91 on: January 10, 2009, 12:12:21 AM
This sounds like a great way to dial up the difficulty and yet still allow casual players to progress through the game, I fully endorse it.

but I simply begin to miss the way games (or pretty much everything else entertaimentwise) they were back in the 90s.
I don't. 90% of games back then sucked, just like now. Noone remembers them though, which makes sense as they weren't worth remembering.

Posted on: 2009-01-10, 00:01:27
Quote from: Anonymous on fightingamphibians
Getting pissy over this is like getting pissed off over easy mode in any given game.

I've been waiting for Nintendo to finally realize that something as simple as DIFFICULTY LEVELS would help their games so much in appealing to both casuals and the "hardcore" crowd. This is basically the same thing.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #92 on: January 10, 2009, 06:29:29 PM
OK, it would seem as though more people and developers are starting to put in little bits of thought on this patent. Kotaku has a few choice quotes from 4 big name devs who have varying opinions on this new design idea:

Quote
Ben Mattes, Producer of Ubisoft's Prince of Persia
"I read through it quickly, but I'm not sure I fully understand it yet. It makes sense to me in a purely linear game, but as soon as we get sand-box, or even remotely open ended, the number of variables would seem to invalidate the potential of this system.

"ie: I'm in Fallout3 and have focused energy on sneak and unarmed combat. If I'm in a particular point in the game I can't pass, and I use this system, what 'recording' could the game know to use? It can't possibly have developer walkthroughs of all possible configurations of a character and strategies to pass through each in-game challenge. More likely as not, it would have one 'right' way to pass through a particular challenge...

"That said, as I think our work on POP probably helps demonstrate, we're all for the idea of finding ways to help non-core gamers experience (and finish) the type of games that have traditionally only been available to a select 'few' (relatively speaking, of course). If everyone out there who owns a Wii were to play and love RE5, you can bet that the budget Capcom would have available for RE6 would allow them to create something even more spectacular."

Todd Howard, Game Director, Bethesda
"Most people stop playing a certain game because they get frustrated or confused by what the game wants them to do. It becomes work and frustration, as opposed to ‘playtime.’ This idea clearly tries to alleviate that. It’s much like passing the controller to someone who knows the game really well, so you can move ahead or simply enjoy the story. It’s the classic ‘challenge or entertain’ issue that designers often deal with. I think there’s a lot of ways around that, and remained confused by what people are actually allowed to patent these days."

Jonathan Blow, Creator, Braid
"Based just on reading your posting... I don't know. I mean, it's an okay idea for a developer to have a way to show you through various parts of the game I guess, to show you side-quests you missed or whatever. I'd like to see someone try that. But as a general paradigm for playing games there are a lot of problems.

"The defining characteristic of a game is that you play it. If, in order for games to be accessible to a wider audience, we need to make it so that most people can skip over the playing it part, then what that really means is that our medium sucks. If you have to elide the basic property of your medium to make experiences in that medium desirable, then the medium itself is questionable at a very deep level.

"The proper solution is to start producing games that don't have this kind of problem — not to create the problem, then band-aid over it and hope people still have a good experience.

"The way you phrase it — "moving developers away from the notion of beginning, middle and end" — sounds cool, I would like to see more of that. But that is something that has to be a core component of the game's design. Just because you have random access to a linear experience doesn't make the experience nonlinear. You can skip to any part of a DVD movie that you want, but that doesn't mean the movie has gone away from the notion of beginning, middle, and end, you know?

"Unless you are drawing this conclusion from something I missed or that is in the original patent application, which I haven't read..."

Michael Wilford, CEO Twisted Pixel Games
"Kind Code is an interesting idea that is squarely aimed at reaching non-gamers. In fact, we often debate internally about ways to make gaming as culturally relevant as film or literature. Perhaps it's just a matter of time, or perhaps there are some systemic flaws in the way games are made and presented. Something like Kind Code, if done right, could be a way to reach anyone with your content without requiring them to be accomplished video game players.

However, if Kind Code is intended as a general solution that adds Digest Mode to all games, that might be like putting training wheels on all bicycles, including Lance Armstrong's. As long as the functionality can be tightly integrated into the right places in the right games, it could be the way to truly open gaming up to everyone. I'm sure we could find ways to use it in our character-driven games and make more people enjoy and laugh at our stuff than otherwise possible."

Honestly, I'm still lost as hell. I also, strangely, agree with everything said above. This istruly something that has me scratiching my head and 100% on the fence.

Discuss. Also, here's the Kotaku article linked.



Offline Solar

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Reply #93 on: January 10, 2009, 06:45:27 PM
Interesting reactions, however, I still say wait and see.

You know, I've realized something. Nintendo is the [tornado fang]ing king of creating controversy this gen XD


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Offline Jericho

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Reply #94 on: January 10, 2009, 06:58:34 PM
Honestly, I love the controversy. It's good to mix things up and "up end tea tables" more often. XD



Offline Solar

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Reply #95 on: January 10, 2009, 07:11:16 PM
Honestly, after all that happened after last year's E3, I'd SERIOUSLY love if they didn't create anymore.


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Offline Jericho

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Reply #96 on: January 10, 2009, 07:18:24 PM
Honestly, after all that happened after last year's E3, I'd SERIOUSLY love if they didn't create anymore.

StarTropics 3 and a StarFox that kills StarFox 64 in terms of how good it is, THEN you can propose something like this. XD



Offline Solar

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Reply #97 on: January 10, 2009, 07:20:12 PM
I meant controversy, not games. I'd die without my Nintendo games in future consoles D:


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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #98 on: January 10, 2009, 07:28:06 PM
You know, I've realized something. Nintendo is the [tornado fang]ing king of creating controversy this gen XD
I think people are just looking for controversies with them after the Wii's very existence rocked the boat.  I mean, honestly, this patent is pretty mundane.  In and of itself it means jack squat to us.  But watching everyone react to it?  Priceless.

Also on DeviantArt, Rumble, DLive.tv, and the Fediverse (@freespeechextremist.com and @bae.st)


Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #99 on: January 10, 2009, 07:32:57 PM
Honestly, after all that happened after last year's E3, I'd SERIOUSLY love if they didn't create anymore.

Nintendo's Fall Conference shows why E3 is totally useless now. 

And hey, look at the discussion we all had about just the idea of the patent.  At least Ninty got us talking!  XD