Topic: Input on an all-inclusive Endless Stage application...

[VixyNyan]

There's also the Tiger LCD games Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3. ^^

[Gauntlet101010]

@BaconMan

http://themechanicalmaniacs.com/articles/MMPC.php - Download MMPC and MM3PC right at my site.  It was one of my first bits of content.  And no ... there was never a MM2PC.  WTF, right?

Torchman is the Magnetman edit.  Waveman is the Airman edit.

On patterns - Well, IMHO, it's best to make everything as true as possible.  I'd take the sound effects (lol) and just go with the existing patterns.  For the hard mode though ... you can make them interesting there.  I have much more than is needed in that sprite sheet, so you can put it together with some imagination.  And there's playthroughs which show you what they're pattern's supposed to be. 

Sharkman's level & Swimming - It ALL requires swimming.  If you really go through it you'll see.  Especially if you want to be true to the games, and I think it'll be a stronger project if you are.  I think it'll make sence enough to the end users.  Just insert a sign that shows MM swimming or something and they'll get the idea.  Just use MM8's swimming ... the swimming in PC3 is [parasitic bomb].   It'd be fun to see these levels in the game, but there's no point is they are shitty and unplayable, you know?

Although you'll have to graphically remake the enemies.  They don't have many frames and shouldn't present too much challenge, though.  I mean ... if you're willing to tackly R&F WS and all.  I think it'd be worth it though, if it meant the inclusion of these bizarre levels.  They do have tile data, BTW.  In the gallery at my site (follow the link in the article I posted).  I could help sprite *some* enemies if the PC stages are a definate go. 

Smart bet is to disable the helpers in the water; like Jet post 3 and in WW.  Having them actually in the water would negate the challenge and is logistically questionable.  Would gospel boost and Jet MM work in the water?  Could MM swim as Power MM? 

On Weapons - I'd include them as options, but no.  No changes.  That's like changing Shadow Blade around because the game has Metal Blade.  If you have them, you have them as they are for better or worse. 

To me, the strength of this kind of project is to make the emulation as true as possible.  Like the fanmade MM7 NES remake ... it mimicked the origional levels as well as the NES series.  After you do that, WELL ... then it's time for some fun, eh? Super hard Torchman on hard mode sounds like a great idea to me.  And very ironic.   

[BaconMan]

There's also the Tiger LCD games Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3. ^^

See already: Power Mode.
[spoiler] Are you serious?! *lol*[/spoiler]

And the swimming is one of the weapons? ^.^' Well that's not gonna translate too well, is it? Besides, the only frameset I have with swimming frames at all is MM8's Rock. Bass' dash or G. Boost (MM7) frames could sorta... do... something... but Proto's totally screwed, then! (And actually, that would break Zero, too.)

[Gauntlet101010]

I think you're misunderstanding me based on the swimming comment ....
If you're swimming, I think Gospel Boost and the Rushes should be disabled.  Just by default.  It forces you to actually swim.

I think you should base Bass off his Power Battles and Fighters sprites.  LOTS of options there.  I don't think anybody ever made swimming sprites for him though.

Someone made a swimming 8-bit MM for the MM8 remake game ... I don't think he'd mind you using it if you asked and gave credit.

[Hypershell]

I think you're misunderstanding me based on the swimming comment ....
If you're swimming, I think Gospel Boost and the Rushes should be disabled.  Just by default.  It forces you to actually swim.

I bequeath a boot to the head.
*THWAKK!*
NEVER diss Rush.

There's also the Tiger LCD games Mega Man 2 and Mega Man 3. ^^

DEET.  deet.  dootDEETdeetdootDEETdeet.

Ah, the memories...
(I only had 3)

[BaconMan]

I wasn't talking about using the actual Gospel Boost - you know that "dive attack" Bass does in MM7 with it? I was talking about using that as a basis to edit a swim animation. And one problem with using the Battle/Fighters sprites (which I would otherwise do), and it's the same one as using Rock7FC's... he needs a ladder-climbing animation, still. (Plus, IIRC; Rock7FC's is based on NGPC Battle & Fighters, anyways!)

 
Pets are -not- getting disabled, though. It's MegaMan, since when does anything *need* to make sense? (Fire Man weak against Ice... whaaat?!) Besides, doing that as associating with "water" is a REALLY bad idea. Know why? Play GeminiMan's stage. THAT'S why. 


Gauntlet: Who and where? 

[Gauntlet101010]

Is Rush disabled in MM8's swimming levels?

Plus, Rush Jet IS disabled in the water post-MM3.  Rush Marine is disabled outside of water post-MM3 too.   So it's not like it's some sort of stretch to think the suits might not work in water.  Swimmable water, anyway.  YOU'RE the one who'se saying it's a problem to make swimming frames for these modes, though.  I'm just offering you one solution.  Obviously, you could just create swimming frames for these modes if you don't want to disable them. 

Before the crash someone posted swimming sprites in the MM7FC thread for the guys making MM9FC to use.  Don't know who though.

If you really wanted Bass in the game you could CREATE some ladder sprites.  It's not like it's all that hard.  There's even unused PB sprites of him climbing a ladder.  You're thinking of remaking part of the WS game in 8-bit, so why the aversion to making some ladder and swimming sprites?

edit: You can't be afraid to create some custom sprites for things you want the characters to do.  If you want Jet megaman to swim in your game then, obviously, you gotta make swimming sprites for Jet Megaman.  If that's too much work then, maybe, Jet megaman doesn't need to swim in the game.  But it's one or the other.

And the Sakugarne and Top Spin, and several other weapons ... they all require some customisation.  The damage chart too ... the RM's damage data is well documented, but the damage to minor enemies is not.  You see the challenge you have here, right?

If you want Bass in the game, obviously, he needs a few more sprites.  But it's not like that's some insurmountable challenge.  I mean ... why balk at ladder climbing sprites when programming a mixture of MM1-8 and the GB games and the PC games is a daunting challenge in and of itself?  The game you want to make is a huge challenge to program ... making new ladder climbing sprites or Top Spin sprites is not. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Smart bet is to disable the helpers in the water; like Jet post 3 and in WW.  Having them actually in the water would negate the challenge and is logistically questionable.  Would gospel boost and Jet MM work in the water?  Could MM swim as Power MM?

Well, Jet and Power MegaMan worked just fine in the regular water of Mega Man 6.  And even with the Super Adaptor, you still float in the "float water" of BurstMan's stage.  Now, with "swim water", I think it's okay to allow Rush Marine because it has limited energy anyway, but I see your point about the Rush suits.  It's really up to the author here; if you think you should just swim in suit form, then do that.  If you think there should be a change to the physics because the suits are considered "heavier" (the reasons for not allowing sliding and for Power RockMan's slower running animation, I believe), then change it until it feels right.

On Weapons - I'd include them as options, but no.  No changes.  That's like changing Shadow Blade around because the game has Metal Blade.  If you have them, you have them as they are for better or worse.

That's true.  But one consideration is that now we're adapting various different games from various different systems, and sometimes a game will re-use something from a previous game with a slight tweak to it.  For example, there's this dome-headed shooting enemy that lifts a shield over its head to fire in Rockman 5, and in Rockman World 4, it's modified to allow standing on the shield.  This would be funny to implement, but should it always be this way so the player knows what to expect, or should it only happen in Game Boy-styled levels so as not to take away the challenge from the NES levels with their higher ceilings?  The weapons should probably stick to their original style for the most part, but I'd still look to the handheld and arcade games for ideas on how to spice them up a little.

And if you do put Beat in the game, which Beat is it?  Even on the NES, there were two very different versions.  5's Beat only takes a little damage off each enemy it hits, while 6's Beat destroys an enemy in one hit, using up energy equivalent to the remaining energy of the enemy, but it doesn't attack bosses like 5's.  I haven't tried the Game Boy one in a while, although I think it was more like NES 5's, except I remember there was a trick where Beat would still damage enemies without actually flying into them--just get the target over your shoulder and turn around.

Plus, Rush Jet IS disabled in the water post-MM3.  Rush Marine is disabled outside of water post-MM3 too.

And that's a shame.  I liked being able to hop on land before disembarking, although it shouldn't have wasted energy to sit around on land.

If you really wanted Bass in the game you could CREATE some ladder sprites.

Aren't there a few ROM hacks that feature Bass?  Why not just imitate the climbing sprite from one of those?  Seriously, you only need to draw ONE FRAME for this.  The climbing animation in the old games is simply flipping it back and forth.

The damage chart too ... the RM's damage data is well documented, but the damage to minor enemies is not.  You see the challenge you have here, right?

It's been my dream for a while to see a page with damage data for EVERY enemy in every game.  I could probably help with this as long as I've got nothing better to do.

Now some of the inter-game damage data are covered by games like the Rockman World series and Rockman Megaworld, while the rest you can just make up based on how the weapons tend to work and what the characters tend to be damaged by.  The only sticky part is when these games conflict with each other... Maybe use the conflicting damage values in different difficulties?  (If you're not following me here... Think about what happens when you use the Mega Man 1 weapons on Changkey Maker in Mega Man: Dr. Wily's Revenge as compared to doing so in Mega Man: The Wily Wars or Mega Man: Powered Up.)

[VixyNyan]

Aren't there a few ROM hacks that feature Bass?

The Adventures of Bass II by Sivac Drac. ^^

[Gauntlet101010]

Suits - Another problem with armors (at least jet ones) in swimming levels occurred to me.  Namely that swimming involves mashing the jump butting.  The same button used for flying.  Logistically, it doesn't make sence.  If you're swimming, how would the flying work ... I mean, you'd be wearing the suit, but every time you're in the air you're swimming.  So you'd never actually be able to fly.  Disabling the effected suits is the simplest solution rather than having them simply not work. 

Bass' R&F Gospel Boost would probably work all right.  His MM7 suit (a copy of MM's suit) suffers the same problem.

Keeping Rush Marine is fair.  It's the suits that are a concern, not the standard stuff. 

Bass ladder - I wouldn't use a rom hack to nab sprites from.  At least, not without permission.  Ladder sprites aren't hard to make yourself ... it's shameful to nab them from some hack just because you don't wanna take the time to do your own. 

Beat - Gooooood question.  I liked Beat in MM5 the best.  But that's just because Beat didn't work on Wily in 6. 
I suggested to do this WW style, so that'd mean a choice of three support units.  So, a choice of any of the Beats (MM5-6, MM7, R&F) along with Tango, Rush, and Eddy too I guess. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Bass ladder - I wouldn't use a rom hack to nab sprites from.  At least, not without permission.

Well sheesh, I didn't mean you had to steal anything if you didn't want to.  You could at least study those sprites and try to improve them.  And really, there are only so many ways to fill those small tiles, so I don't make a big deal out of stealing sprites anyway.

a choice of any of the Beats (MM5-6, MM7, R&F)

Sure, I would say combine the best aspects of the homing attack forms of Beat and call it Beat Attack, then have a Beat Rescue and a Beat Shield.  Just as long as the player doesn't get them mixed up...

[BaconMan]

Well, obviously recreating every element of every game (including every minor enemy!) would not only be totally exhausting, but also would make the file size/loading time on this thing EEEEENORMOUS! >.< It is more of a "generalization" game; after all, given differences in MM physics, taking that approach would mean making 20 "Rockmans," one to recreate every detail of every title. Heck, if I were doing that, it might as well just be a patch for Perfect Collection, or something. >.< A total, perfect emulation project really IS above my head! (And I'm not too proud to admit that.)

Another part of an "exact recreation" that wouldn't make any sense, is the "double-damage deal." Zero takes double damage. Proto takes double damage. Bass takes double damage. I mean, WTF?! (Honestly, I just think "RockHead" is twice as oblivious to damage. )

Keeping a project like this simple, but still fun and worthwhile; that's what I'm really looking to achieve here.

Suits and Water:

Mmm... (looking at the "jump button" issue,) that IS a very valid point. I was going to go so far as to make Armored Megaman/Bass just seperate selectable characters from the originals... (much the way X5/X6 make the different armors available) but the swim module really -would- screw that up. (0.5x 'ing the gravity wouldn't change the flying dynamics enough either, would it? Just the falling ones...) In fact, the "double jump" module couldn't coincide with anything like that, either. Oh, crap... something's got to give!

Rush Marine:

To be honest, I was just going to axe Rush Marine, in favor of Rush Drill, remember? Beat Plane (being wing-propelled, and not jet-propelled) will be usable under water, the same way MM3's Rush Jet was (since that's what it mostly mimics), and effectively double as Rush Marine as well, I suppose. Besides, wasn't MM3 and Wily Wars the only games that even featured it, to begin with? (Not counting the "Space Adapted" version in MMV.)

Homing Beat:

Well, I suppose I could integrate Reggae as a similar kind of character (assuming I can find frames for him, at all!); since Beat Attack ~= Ouroboros. Beat's other functions thus far are the Beat Rescue (ala MM8 Rush Aid, not pit-saving!), and the Beat Plane (rough equal of MM3's Rush Jet... even though it just looks like "a big Beat").

What other functions do you think Reggae should support? Some kind of vertical flying lift? That -could- save you from a pit, or take you up to higher places, but you'd have to equip and activate it pretty quickly! But then, that's exactly what the Hook Shot does, anyways; why make that worthless? Either way, he'd still need a third...

Weapon Edits:

I was going to keep these to a minimum, but at least give *some* value to each weapon - a perfect example of a weapon in NEED of revision is Burning Wheel. I really don't see how burning open one secret passage would make it worthwhile, especially when any fire weapon can/will do that. If the system really is weapon-for-weapon, then it would only make sense to create/include ones that people will (ab)use, religiously. Plus, there really are many copy-paste weapons out there.

Ladder Sprites:

This is actually kind of funny. I know how to draw, pretty well. I know how to use software, pretty well. But using drawing software, ironically; is something I completely suck at!  I suppose I could do a simple edit of Rock's climbing sprites, but fair warning - if I do, it will probably be "obviously so!"


Treble function #3?:

Well, I was playing around in Rock5 Endless the other day. And I did say I was probably going to scrap it... but the "Retard Coil" in the game gave me a bit of an idea.

What if Treble did something similar, except instead of jumping straight up, he jumps -forwards- instead? This way, it can be used to jump wider pits, as well as taller areas (IE: Treble jumps to the right, then you jump to the left). Treble also inflicts damage to enemies he collides with, along the way, and is immune to spikes.

If you *remain* on Treble, he will take another jump, and repeat the energy cost. Thus, Treble can cross big chasms of spikes (similar to the Raptors in SlashMan's level - but more like the size of Wily's Lab part 1, MM1) this way, and carry you along as well; plus have enough offensive power to mow through crowds of minor enemies (but not major ones!).

Another thing I was considering, was having the direction you face determine the direction Treble moves in; much like Poochy from Yoshi's Island. So you could hop back and forth, rather than just one direction or the other.

Treble already has adequate animation to support such a function too. What do you think? It still needs a catchy name, btw.

[Gauntlet101010]

Bass' double jump and the MM7 suit

 - Easy solution.  Instead of gliding on the second jump he glides on the third.  Remember, his weapon would also have to change to a chargable buster.
Hm ... actually, maybe this suit should be left out.  It kind of makes him no different than MM ... so what would be the point between switching characters at all? 

Does Bass really take double damage in R&F??  Are you sure about that?  It isn't documented anywhere.  Oroto's a harder nut though.  Since MM can charge and slide, the advantage to using Proto that was present in MM9 is blunted.  You might wanna go with PU's Proto with his double-damage, single hit shield, and single, super powered "break" shot. 

Bass ladder

- Just shrink down the unused PB sprites in Adobe and trace away on the above layer.  That's the best way to do it, IMHO.

Rush Marine
- No, I must have missed that part.  Whichever, I guess.  Marine was in WW, MM3, MM4, 2GB, and 3GB.   

Reggae
- Geez, I dunno what he would do.  In R&F WS he drops a random powerup. There's frames for him in Rockboard that should do anything you really want Reggae to do. 

Not totally all-inclusive
Hm.  Good point on the enemies and weapons.  You know what?  Maybe you should pick the "best" weapons from the series and just do those.  Enough for a wide variety, but not every one of them.  If you made this open source, and structured it the right way, though, ... it's possible that people could do hacks later on and include weapons you didn't at first.  So you wouldn't have to do all the work. 

Although, and I hate to say it, if this is the case then maybe Metal Blade is on the scrap heap.  Because Forte has rapid fire and if you include Metal Blade then that's just one thing less different between playable characters.

Treble funtion #3
"Gospel Ride"?  I dunno ... if you have something like that that's required to pass certian levels and people don't select it, then they're screwed.  They're also screwed if they run out of energy before reaching that point.  And what equivalant weapon would MM have?   It seems like it should just be like in Brightman's level or in Slashman's level rather than a whole new adaptor. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Weapon Edits:

I was going to keep these to a minimum, but at least give *some* value to each weapon - a perfect example of a weapon in NEED of revision is Burning Wheel.

Even if you don't change what the weapons do, you can still affect the balance of the game by changing how much energy they use.  For example, I just got done replaying Rockman 6, and I REALLY don't see why one use of Blizzard Attack is worth three notches.  Hardly anything's weak to it, and it's not as if those small projectiles are guaranteed to hit anything, even if they do go in four directions.  What it's really useful for is destroying those big Gabyoals from a distance, but... That's just one enemy!  I'd like to use a weapon like that repeatedly for a while, and not have to conserve so much!

It's not as if there's no precedent for changes like this.  4GB let you have 19 uses of Rain Flush instead of the original 7, although it still only gave you 7 uses of Flash Stopper.  And on the flip side, you could easily change Metal Blade to use up a whole unit of energy so it's less abusable.

I suppose I could do a simple edit of Rock's climbing sprites, but fair warning - if I do, it will probably be "obviously so!"

Hey, at least when you edit old sprites, the result tends to still match their art style pretty well.

but the "Retard Coil" in the game gave me a bit of an idea.

Is that what people are calling it now?  My only two issues with that Rush Coil were that it was thinner than it looked, and if you were used to the Rush Coil in the other games, you would use 5's Coil incorrectly, and vice versa.  Basically, it was fixing something that wasn't broken, but it still worked okay.

Marine was in WW, MM3, MM4, 2GB, and 3GB.   

Nope, Marine wasn't in 3GB.  That was also the game that turned Rush Jet into the slow version of Item-2.

[Gauntlet101010]

You know what'd be cool to add?  A "wild card" Metool.  A Met that switches from one type to another randomly.  From standing and spinning to walking towards you, to sprouting a copter and flying.  That's be pretty tough because you'd never really know what to expect.

Anyhow, yeah, you can fudge the weapon nubers a bit.  Although I still think it's best to keep them as true as possible.  It's not my game, so .... there ya go.

You know, though ... even if the weapons are broken, it's an endless .... they'll wear down with time.  So it's probably not a big deal.  The Rush suits might be more so since they don't run out of power.   

Were the playable characters that are hoped to be in the game listed yet?  I've heard R&F Bass and MM9 Proto, and Zero, but that just m,ight be me guessing. 

[BaconMan]

Playable characters, so far:

[spoiler]Rock/MegaMan
Blues/ProtoMan
Forte/Bass
Zero
Hyper Rock/MegaMan (IE: S. Adapt)
Super Forte/Bass (IE: G. Boost/T. Boost)

I was going to try and get Duo and Roll in here... Roll-chan may be possible, if the sprite for her in "Roll-Chan 5" is available, somewhere. And spying on another hack I ran across, there may be one more... but Duo is now boss-status, as there's little-to-no platforming structure to him! But so far, those above are the only ones I have sprited.

The very fact that the S.Adapter takes no power, plus that the Mega Fist is available seperately, is exactly -why- I'm making Hyper Rock/Mega a seperate entity.

Different busters and ability modules mean that even though different chars are available, they are very similar in play, unless *made* to be different (IE: Hyper Rock/Super Forte).[/spoiler]

Weapons and Costs

Obviously, extensive testing will be done to "balance" the energy costs of the weapons. But a low-to-no cost weapon that's worthless isn't going to be of value to anybody! Metal Blade's cost will probably ~= Shadow Blade's, because the only real difference is that Shadow Blade's reverses direction after a second. But then, how many other weapons do the same thing? Ring Boomerang, Magic Card...

I'm basing the energy costs by comparing their usefulness to the weapons in MM3 and MM7. This, unfortunately; leaves "full-screen" effects like Time Stopper, Gravity Hold, and Lightning Storm kind of "up in the air." Time Stopper, at least; I'm planning on only making effective as you HOLD the shoot button, which will eat up the bar as you see fit (so rapid fire ~= slow motion; but then balancing -that- cost so it's not used up "faster").

Blizzard Attack's fix, btw: Shoots 2 "blue Leaf Shields" that spread out. *THAT* is going to hit something, and plus, more like a blizzard, it's not going to "vanish" upon hitting an enemy (unless it's totally withstood). I think I set it to 4-5 bars per use, 8 damage (= 4 P-Shooters) per hit... just less than a full-charge buster.

Also, just as a funny note/for kicks, I was considering making "Metal Blade" a secret PRIMARY weapon! Don't know what else I'd put with the MM2 weapons, however.

Weapon Selection:

For the playtest/beta, I was going to put together 4 weapons from each game, rather than the entire 8... along with a few variety packs to fill in gaps for more weapons that have been prepared. I'm going to make a spoiler list of weapons that are -currently- ready (for testing, once I get the weapon select/firing script together in the "player" object):

[spoiler]MAIN WEAPONS:
P-Shooter
Mega Buster (WIP)
Proto Array (the "break shot" or spread shot)
Mega Saber
Mega Fist (WIP)
Mega Laser
Turbo Blaster (IE: Bass Buster from R&F, except it doesn't shoot -straight- up, and has a 5-shot max, and shoots P-Shooters for now)

SECONDARY WEAPONS:
Balloon Lift
Mega Ball
Proto Shield

PETS:
Rush
Beat
Tango
Treble (WIP)

MM1 WEAPONS:
Fire Storm
Ice Slasher
Rolling Cutter
Elec Beam

MM2 WEAPONS:
Quick Boomerang
Atomic Fire
Metal Blade (4-directional, working on diagonals still)
Leaf Shield
Air Shooter
Bubble Lead
Crash Bomb

MM3 WEAPONS:
Search Snake
Hard Knuckle
Needle Cannon
Shadow Blade
Gemini Laser
Magnet Missile

MM4 WEAPONS:
Ring Boomerang
Drill Bomb
Skull Barrier
Pharaoh Wave
Dive Missile (presently, rough equal of Hard Knuckle)
Dust Crusher

MM5 WEAPONS:
Power Stone
Gyro Attack
Charge Kick (WIP; also enables slide without having "sliding module")
Napalm Bomb
-(presently, rough equal of Wild Coil - when it hits the ground, it reverses vertical momentum, instead of "rolling on the floor")
Crystal Eye
Water Wave
Star Crash

MM6 WEAPONS:
Knight Crush
Wind Storm
Flame Shot
Blizzard Attack
Yamato Spear
Silver Tomahawk* (currently, it shoots "Air Shooter")
Plant Barrier

MM7 WEAPONS:
Freeze Cracker
Thunder Bolt
Slash Claw
Noise Crush (working on charged/absorbed version still)
Wild Coil

MM8 WEAPONS:
Tornado Hold
Flash Bomb
Ice Wave
Flame Sword (WIP)
Homing Sniper (WIP)

MM9 WEAPONS:
Concrete Shot
Jewel Satellite
Laser Trident
Hornet Chaser
Plug Ball
Magma Bazooka
[/spoiler]

Wild Card Metool:

That's -exactly- the kind of thing I'm talking about! With the randomizing enemies, and so forth... Metools would certainly be a group of their own (but the swimmers? Not sure how that would work, yet...), in this case. I doubt anyone would fall for a 1up Met either, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be cool to see, right? But yes, this is definitely a good, fun approach!

[Gauntlet101010]

Know what else would be cool?

if you could fight non-selected playable characters.  You don't select them, so they will have to be fought eventually.  Even MM has been fought before (in Powered Up), so they have patterns you could access. 

I dunno if the suits should be seperate chatacters in and of themselves ... that really limits your level design since they don't dash or slide.  They're very slow, so any "Quick Beam" levels will be pretty unplayable. 

Plating as Roll Chan would be pretty fun.  It's a pity that the new Rm1 Cell phone game isn't ripped.  It has full sprites for her.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Hey, I've almost finished a spreadsheet with damage data for every enemy in RockMan 1.  Will this be helpful?  Should I keep going?

[Gauntlet101010]

Hey, I've almost finished a spreadsheet with damage data for every enemy in RockMan 1.  Will this be helpful?  Should I keep going?

Even if it's not used in this game it's interesting!  Keep going!

[Bag of Magic Food]

I found an Easter egg while working on it.  When you fire Thunder Beam on those jumping Super Cutter enemies or on CutMan, the beam suddenly shatters into a whole bunch of pieces and scatters in many directions, although it still hurts CutMan.  This also happens if ElecMan uses his beam while RockMan is equipped with Rolling Cutter--you still take the normal 10 damage, but you get the shredding effect.  Furthermore, I peeked into the GameFAQs board for the game yesterday, where it turned out that somebody had already reported all this, as well as the fact that if you switch to Rolling Cutter after Copy RockMan fires a Thunder Beam, it will not only be shredded, but RockMan will suffer 10 units of damage, when normally all attacks the Copy Robot does only take 4.  So that's a funny inconsistency, and it also makes me paranoid that I should have been switching to every weapon before logging the result of an enemy hit.  I wonder why the developers were so keen on having a special effect for using a Beam on a Cutter-user when no other weapon in the game gets deflected by anything.

Now, there will be several blanks left empty unless I learn how to make a Game Genie code that allows you to grab blocks anywhere or make Hyper Bombs float.

[BaconMan]

I found an Easter egg while working on it.  When you fire Thunder Beam on those jumping Super Cutter enemies or on CutMan, the beam suddenly shatters into a whole bunch of pieces and scatters in many directions, although it still hurts CutMan.  This also happens if ElecMan uses his beam while RockMan is equipped with Rolling Cutter--you still take the normal 10 damage, but you get the shredding effect.  Furthermore, I peeked into the GameFAQs board for the game yesterday, where it turned out that somebody had already reported all this, as well as the fact that if you switch to Rolling Cutter after Copy RockMan fires a Thunder Beam, it will not only be shredded, but RockMan will suffer 10 units of damage, when normally all attacks the Copy Robot does only take 4.  So that's a funny inconsistency, and it also makes me paranoid that I should have been switching to every weapon before logging the result of an enemy hit.  I wonder why the developers were so keen on having a special effect for using a Beam on a Cutter-user when no other weapon in the game gets deflected by anything.

Now, there will be several blanks left empty unless I learn how to make a Game Genie code that allows you to grab blocks anywhere or make Hyper Bombs float.

Stuff like this! It's very... WOW.  Is this MM1, MM1 for Cell, MMPU; any/all thereof? It's amazing how many tweaks like this appear!

bag: Damage sheets are priceless in an age of homebrew gaming! Keep up the good work!

[Bag of Magic Food]

I just finished the damage chart for Rockman 2 as well, but I'm tired now, so I'll figure out how to upload it in the evening.  One of the weird things I found was that standing on Item-3 makes AirMan's tornadoes slow way down, to like a pixel a second or so.  Why would that be?

Posted on: February 06, 2009, 04:49:22 AMHere, if you have Microsoft Excel, please check this out and give me advice.  http://www.box.net/shared/5xg58xncfa  It now covers the first two Famicom games on separate sheets.  I'd like to hear ideas on how to format it better so it's easier to read and share.  Also feel free to look for any errors in the tables.  (I almost logged an 8 as a 6 once, because I was only paying attention to the fact that there was 4 left over after a few hits.)  Right now I'll give some explanations on how I set up the numbers.

All throughout, I was logging the amounts of damage that Fire Storm and Crash Bomb did with a single hit as well as what sort of multi-hit combo I could achieve by standing next to an enemy with Fire Storm's shield and detonating a bomb right next to an enemy.  Crash Bomber is particularly erratic with its chain-hits, so don't expect the maximum every time.  Similarly, I logged the amount of damage from just one of Air Shooter's tornadoes and typed "per tornado" beside it so you would know you could get 2 or 3 times that number depending on whether the enemy can absorb all the tornadoes fast enough.  On the last couple bosses of RockMan 1, I even logged multi-hit damages for all the weapons, although I tried never to count when Rolling Cutter returns to you for another strike, because it's pretty obvious when you get a second hit that way and it doesn't always happen.

One thing that's interesting about RockMan 2 is that there are some enemies that actually take less damage from a Master Weapon than from your regular buster.  So instead of putting in lots of tiny fractions for those, I claimed whatever the weakest weapon was did 1 point, and the total hit points were based on that.  I still ended up with some values with fractional parts, though.  There were times when Weapon A would beat the enemy in 5 hits, while Weapon B would beat it in 3.  Or you could beat it with 2 shots of Weapon B and 2 shots of Weapon A, or you could beat it with 1 shot of Weapon B and 4 shots of Weapon A.  So I figured Weapon B was doing about 1.7 units, because:

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5
1.7 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 5.7
1.7 + 1.7 + 1 + 1 = 5.4
1.7 + 1.7 + 1.7 = 5.1

Now that's probably not exactly what it is, but I don't feel like learning how to hack the memory right now, so at least it's good enough to make predictions.  And of course I always said that bosses had 28 HP, even if all the weapons did 2 points at the least, just because it would be strange to say that AirMan really had 14 and every 2 notches represented 1 HP.

For some reason, I felt like listing CWU-01P and PicoPico as one of their components with just a note about how many there were, while I listed BueBeam as the full 28, if only so I wouldn't have another dumb "1 HP" enemy as a boss.  So you can figure out that there are 5 of them by taking 6 into 28.

I put in a few enemies that aren't really live enemies, just stage hazards, because I figured it would be important to know how much damage they did or if you could freeze them.  So that's what "fire wave", "electric beam", and "lasers" are all about.  I think "fireballs" was what the freezable fire pillars were called in Navi Mode, so that's where that came from, but I'm probably wrong and I'm terrible at finding correct names.  There were even a couple of cases where two enemies might be considered the same thing, but I separated them anyway.  Like, the Scworms and the bendy things they produce have the exact same damage table, but since they look and behave differently, I listed both to avoid confusion.  The Metalls that Guts-Dozer produces also have the same weaknesses as the regular kind, but they act a little different, so, new line.  Pipi's egg was interesting: Destroying Pipi destroys Pipi's egg, even if it's already falling!  When the egg's falling, Quick Boomerang doesn't work on it, but it does work on both Pipi and Pipi's children.  Anything an enemy produces that can't be destroyed I consider a "shot".  (Should Needle Harry's shots be considered enemies then?  Hmm...)

I left blanks wherever it wasn't possible to use a particular weapon against a particular enemy.  With a cheat code they might be possible, but I don't know where to get good cheats like that, and I wouldn't fully trust the results of something you're not supposed to be able to do.  So there's no Super Arm data for things that aren't near blocks, no Hyper Bomb data when targets are too high, and no RockMan 2 weapon data when an enemy is only found in the stage where you obtain that weapon.  I also couldn't get Atomic Fire charged up in time to fire against Crabbot's empty shell; I already had to pull off a crazy stunt to hit it with the semi-charged shot.  By the way, I made an educated guess that Crabbot's shellless body retains its HP from when its shell was still attached, while the shell is a newly generated object.  This was because hitting it first with a stronger weapon made it require fewer hits with a weak weapon afterward, while the shell always took the same numbers of hits.

One last observation: Uncharged Atomic Fire's damage table is almost identical to Rock Buster's.  The only differences are that it doesn't work against BubbleMan and it restores HeatMan.  The medium level shot is always 3 times as powerful as the uncharged.  And the fully charged shot has a completely different table, sometimes finishing off high-HP enemies in one shot, and sometimes not even affecting things that the smaller Atomic Fire shots would.

Oh yeah, and that "average" thing was just some weird experiment I wanted to try.  I probably won't be doing it again.

EDIT: I just added the database for Rockman World into the same file.  This time, I logged all the multi-hit combos I could get, because that's how most of the weapons do their extra damage in this game.  It's disappointing that it turned out each weapon uses only one multiplier for every stage enemy, hence only bosses have customized damage multipliers.  Of course I found a few oddities while making the list, but the weirdest thing was that the damage from BubbleMan's bubbles varied.  Sometimes they did 4 points all throughout a battle, sometimes they did 2 points all throughout, and often the first bubble would do 4, but the rest would do 2.  I still haven't figured it out.

And to be thorough, I listed 5 different versions of Cutting Wheel, although I think only the last one is really different in how it reacts to weapons and the damage it inflicts.

[BaconMan]

DESIGN YOUR OWN VARIETY PACK!

Assume Super Arm/Deep Digger rocks, the ice blocks (MM6/MM8/MM&B) and explosive-triggered barriers are one and the same (because in this case, they are), except fire weapons can take out the ice blocks, too. Concrete Shot and Ice Wall also *make* those, btw. Which one custom 4-weapon set from any combo of games (Robot Master selections only!) would you arrange, and optionally, what strategy/reasoning would you have for choosing the set?

Also, keep in mind, that weapons from a common game are already likely to be together, by default.

(Open for next 48 hours.)

RE: Damage Chart

I suppose it's possible that each weapon was assigned a default value, such as P-Shooter = 10, and then weapons are based around it's relative value. That would explain the 1.7's, even though you could also hit with a remainder, which would also be dropped...

Code: [Select]

(IE: "2 + 2 + 2 > 5")
Assuming W1 = 2,
[2*5] = 10
3 + [2*4] = 11
[3*2] + [2*2] = 10
[3*3] = 9

Only the second line is logically inconsistent (3 + [2*3] = 9, if -that's- the target HP).
The defaults I'm using with the M.Buster levels = 2, 3, and 10. Anything that does a full buster of damage = 10, and rounded out from there. "Minor" enemies are anything that's a one-hit kill, though for some 2-hitters (like Batontons), I've set their life to 3, so a L2 shot will take them out as well.

I understand about the super bomb/power arm thing... there's really no way to check for that kind of thing (like SuperArm damage for enemies in FireMan's level). All we can do is give a general, estimated value of that kind of attack (I'm thinking ~15, actually, since many levels don't feature the blocks).

Also, Leaf Shield = 1 hit kill against the fire dogs in WoodMan's level! But not even *that* damages those ostrich-things. (Discovered via Endless) Those rolling shell/crab things are immune to Bubble Lead entirely, as well.

Good work so far, bag! MM3 and MM7 will probably be of great value, as well; as that's much of the basis of this project, too. MM8/MM&B would be next most useful after that, as that's likely to be of influence soon, too (in their own family of stages).

Robot Master Selection/AI:

Bosses planned on available sprites so far:
[spoiler]
MegaMan 1-2:
-CutMan %
-GutsMan
-ElecMan %
-AirMan
-BubbleMan
-QuickMan %
-CrashMan

MegaMan 3-6:
-ShadowMan
-MagnetMan
-DiveMan %
-DustMan
-GyroMan %
-NapalmMan %
-PlantMan %
~maybe KnightMan

MegaMan 7:
-FreezeMan
-JunkMan
-CloudMan
-BurstMan
-ShadeMan
-SlashMan
-TurboMan

MegaMan 8/Bass: *once the FC's are released, maybe!?
-FrostMan
-GrenadeMan
-SearchMan
-TenguMan
-AstroMan
-GroundMan
-MagicMan
-BurnerMan

MegaMan 9:
-ConcreteMan
-MagmaMan
-JewelMan
-SplashWoman
-TornadoMan
-GalaxyMan
-PlugMan

MegaMan PC:
-SonicMan
-VoltMan
-DynaMan
-TorchMan
-SharkMan
-BladeMan
-BitMan

Fort Bosses:
-Yellow Devil %
-Mecha Dragon %
-GutsMan 2.0
-Jack O' Lantern
-Rex %
-Bully Dozer %
-Crabby Cakes
[/spoiler]

9.9 -Wow. That's almost FIFTY of them already! And that's -without- Wily, yet! 

There's actually a few more bosses I'd like to do, particularly in the 1-6 range; and a number of them I've already got battle priorities/plans (%) for, but some AI/personality quirks could still be useful to brainstorm about.

Getting Stuck?:

There's never just one way around a situation, you know? You can bridge spike chasms with MegaBall, Rush Jet, Concrete Shot, Beat Plane... and yes, if you do mismanage your weapon energy (or just hit dumb luck consistently), it is possible to paint yourself into a corner. You can't always last forever, you know - and with a game that has no objectionable end to it, that's eventually the fate you'll always have to accept.

You can, however, anticipate and prepare for such situations! And this is the entire strategic point to the game's setup phase. What is it that you want help with? Fighting? Trick platforming? QuickLaser runs? Robot Master duels? Moving fast? Conserving life? Accessing shortcuts/fast tracks? There really is a lot to consider! (FYI, I intend to make just about every QuickLaser route possible without sliding... though it may be difficult, or require you to be smart about your terrain. And remember, there are weapons/items that can affect those things, too!)

But yeah, running in, Buster-Only is not a good idea! You can minimize special weapon use, but let's face it - acquiring and using the other Master Weapons is the very core of MegaMan gameplay! It's really what makes the game what it is!

I'm sure playing with this italic thing a lot, huh?

[Bag of Magic Food]

Assume Super Arm/Deep Digger rocks, the ice blocks (MM6/MM8/MM&B) and explosive-triggered barriers are one and the same (because in this case, they are), except fire weapons can take out the ice blocks, too.

Wait, now, when you mention the "ice blocks" from MM6, are you talking about the the actual icy pillars that you need Flame Blast to break, or those cracked blocks you break with Rush Power that happen to be white in BlizzardMan's stage, or both?  And what about those blocks that you can push to plug up the Beat Impostor pits?  It would be funny if you could lift one of those and just set it on top of the pit yourself.

The defaults I'm using with the M.Buster levels = 2, 3, and 10.

But isn't the big shot traditionally only three times as powerful as the small shot?  Five times sounds a little extreme.

I suppose it's possible that each weapon was assigned a default value, such as P-Shooter = 10, and then weapons are based around it's relative value.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, that all the values in memory are multiplied by some constant like 4 or 6 or 10 or something.  Really, you might be able to rip them from the ROM somehow, but I don't feel like learning how to do that right now.  I'll just keep going with my procedure of trying everything in gameplay.

I'm halfway into Rockman 3, and so far there haven't been any of those weird fractional values like the first two games.  I'm even testing the strength of the Rush adaptors, just to make sure their shots are identical to the regular ones!  Then I think I'll do Rockman World 2 and Rockman Megaworld, so you'll get the whole three-game mash-up.  Maybe then I'll try to put the tables into a web-friendly format.

[BaconMan]

Actually, IIRC; Mega Buster = P-Shooter x5, consistently. I mean, let's face it... why charge a shot for much longer than it takes to just fire 3 P-Shooters? You can do that with autofire, anyways. Compare a shot's worth of damage on a Robot Master, to that of a full-charge one. I'm pretty sure it's about 5x as strong. Well, assuming it's not blocked, anyways.

The other difference is that it doesn't disappear upon collision, it continues plowing through enemies, full force, until it *IS* blocked.

Wait, now, when you mention the "ice blocks" from MM6, are you talking about the the actual icy pillars that you need Flame Blast to break, or those cracked blocks you break with Rush Power that happen to be white in BlizzardMan's stage, or both?

Both. Hadn't thought about that third one, though... (isn't that on the WindMan stage?)