Topic: Ancient Theories/Fanon

[Protoman Blues]

Well, I don't.  Wily for the most part stays in the background as it is; he only ever appears when Zero's survival is at stake.  For him to be rebuilt any other way would downplay the "mysterious body" aspect of X and Zero, which messes with a lot of story points, especially pre-XCM.  Wily hasn't been milked by any means; quite the contrary, the fact that he was dropped like a rock actually bugs quite a few fans.

Personally, I don't think it's in Wily's character to stay in the background.  He's a Mad Scientist who wants to rule the world.  If Wily had other means, why would he care about Zero?  Because Zero is his final Creation? 

[Gauntlet101010]

I remember first getting the Internet and finding out about the MegaMan series toward the end of the SNES's lifespan.  So yeah, there were a lot of proposals about the classic series and X series.  There was one site (which is probably long gone now) that came up with lengthy descriptions of some imagined sequels to both series, including detailed explanations of all the new areas that would appear and abilities to find.  I recall there was an idea for an X game that took place in cyberspace, and a Mega Man 6 for Game Boy which I believe started with Terra stealing MegaMan's Mega Arm and ended with...

PIXELBOY!  I remember him.  Sprites INC owes that guy a debt of gratitude.  

Rockman Z

Yeah, that was Rockman Z.  There's vids floating around YouTube, although I can't find the rom ... blast it!

Mandi

In fairness to her, part of her site said she just prefferred that name since she used it for so long.  It wasn't really her fault as much as her fans who took her word as official fact.  Still happens tot he really new.

[Rodrigo Shin]

PIXELBOY!  I remember him.  Sprites INC owes that guy a debt of gratitude.  

HOLY [tornado fang]ing [parasitic bomb] THAT takes me back. I even remember when he said he was closing shop and all.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Hey, I just found some backup copy of an MMHP page that still had the "Mega Man's Order" section.  Does anyone remember that, when we cared about what the "real" order was that Mega Man beat the levels in in the "true" story?  What was that section based on, anyway?

HOLY [tornado fang]ing [parasitic bomb] THAT takes me back. I even remember when he said he was closing shop and all.

Here it is on archive.org!

So it has his last two game ideas, but not the ones I remembered.  Does anyone have a copy from even further back?

[Ryugaki]

when the internet wasn't widespreaded? well, here's the though (although someone's probably HAS already told that...)

1. X is Rock
2. Zero is X' brother (identical with Blues - Rock)
3. Sigma never met X (until X1)
4. Volnutt (Legend) is Future X
5. Legend timeline is 23XX
6. X' final series is X10, (console: PS1) (^^)
7. Rock can wall-climb (trying many times, even equiping almost all parts, until realized that Rock CAN'T wall-climb) (it happened because I'm played Classic series AFTER the X' series...)
[spoiler=Last (but not least)]8. I'm the BEST MegaMan PLAYER IN THE WHOLE WORLD!!! MWAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAK! (... not anymore, though!)[/spoiler]

[Acid]

THE MASTER IS ZERO BECAUSE THEY BOTH HAVE BLOND HAIR THAT IS LONG.

[Dr. Wily II]

A more recent one, from Megaman ZX:

- Hareng is Zero.

[Gauntlet101010]

Hey, I just found some backup copy of an MMHP page that still had the "Mega Man's Order" section.  Does anyone remember that, when we cared about what the "real" order was that Mega Man beat the levels in in the "true" story?  What was that section based on, anyway?
Here it is on archive.org!

I think it had more to do with MM3 than any other game.  And that's based more on Geminiman's level needing to be last to make any kind of sence (They really ought to have put the "Breakman blocker" in Doc Robot Gemini's level).

[Hypershell]

Well, who knows?  Maybe they were trying to go for a "no shortcuts for you" mentality.  Of course, that doesn't work after Rush Jet. ???

This was true in the Game Boy game, though, since it actually had to tie the broken weakness rings together.

There is nothing broken about MM3's weakness ring.  It's just actually two rings.  And the GB games generally do not honor previous weaknesses, in part because they mish-mash bosses from two NES games.

I'm just wondering who the hell got the idea to start the second ring with Snake Man in the guides.  Needle Man is much easier for me, and if all else fails his stage includes an Energy Tank, not that the awesome players will need it.  Then again, you could say the exact same thing for the first ring and Magnet Man.  Top Man is by far the easiest boss in the game.

And then you have Elipso

Elpizo I'll give you, that is to say his actions over the first half of the game.  That is my idea of blurry.  After that he makes the jump to a full-blown Maverick.  Which actually is the one thing I like about him, the fact that he brought that into the Zero series.

Personally, I don't think it's in Wily's character to stay in the background.  He's a Mad Scientist who wants to rule the world.  If Wily had other means, why would he care about Zero?  Because Zero is his final Creation?

If Wily could cheat death and wanted to rule the world, he'd have done so after Light croaked prior to X awakening.  He probably wouldn't have sicced Zero on Sigma in X6, either.  And he'd have had Zero stab X in the back in X2/X5 rather than openly confronting him.  Wily's presence in the X-series is not about ruling the world, it's about his rivalry with Light.

[Protoman Blues]

If Wily could cheat death and wanted to rule the world, he'd have done so after Light croaked prior to X awakening.  He probably wouldn't have sicced Zero on Sigma in X6, either.  And he'd have had Zero stab X in the back in X2/X5 rather than openly confronting him.  Wily's presence in the X-series is not about ruling the world, it's about his rivalry with Light.

I think that's bad storytelling though.  Wily's goal has always been World Domination.  Why would he give that up? 

[Hypershell]

Well, even though whether or not this ties into X is speculative, according to Quint Wily does genuinely reform at some point.

But really, World Domination always had its roots in the rivalry with Light.  The whole point was Wily proving that he's superior, dominance was merely a means to do so.  I don't find the fact that he might shift priorities as he grows older and faces/combats his own mortality at all unusual.  It's the same goal, different method.  It just happens to be well-fitting that the X-series is supposed to have a more serious atmosphere to it than Classic.

Besides, why would Wily have ever sealed Zero in the first place otherwise?

[Protoman Blues]

IIRC, Zero's primary purpose is to kill X.  I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.  If that's the case, then why would Wily be in the background, continuing to repair Zero?  To further be friends with X?  How does that help Wily with his rivalry with Dr. Light? 

Again, I'm no expert on the whole grand scheme of the X storyline, but mainly it just seems like terrible storytelling to me.  It's mainly my own personal view, but I think the story would be better if Wily died believing that his final and greatest creation, Zero, would kill Light's greatest creation, X, in the future.

[Zan]

I'm just wondering who the hell got the idea to start the second ring with Snake Man in the guides.  Needle Man is much easier for me, and if all else fails his stage includes an Energy Tank, not that the awesome players will need it.

I still call you mad for this. Snake is one of easy bosses, along with Top and Magnet. Needle on the other hand is a pain in the ass, his only virtue is the E-tank and the fact that his stage is fairly easy. If it weren't for Gemini's stage being such a pain, I'd rather face him buster only than I would face Needle.

- Hareng is Zero.

He looks more like Axl to me.

Which actually is the one thing I like about him, the fact that he brought that into the Zero series.

He also makes a nice reference to the world Zero told Iris was only a fantasy.

IIRC, Zero's primary purpose is to kill X.  I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.  If that's the case, then why would Wily be in the background, continuing to repair Zero?  To further be friends with X?  How does that help Wily with his rivalry with Dr. Light?

The way Wily is in the X-series, there is no rush. As Isoc says "I can capture you at any time." He seems quite amused with having his Zero hog the splotlight in X's series, no matter which side its on. Watch Isoc's moment of bliss, Zero vs Hi-Max and Isoc's moment rage, X vs Hi-Max, as long as Zero is superior to X, he's happy.

[Rodrigo Shin]

Eh, in X2, if you let the X-Hunters do as they please with Zero, he's already not on your side. They don't explain what sort of mind control was exherted on him, but with the control chip in hands they did try to turn him against X. Didn't last. Best route, of course, they're not able to tamper with the control chip, so Cain snaps everything together and Zero's around fighting the good fight.

Then ludicrously stupid as it may be to me the whole intent of Eurasia and the virus spreading on Earth was schemed by Wily. Sigma carried out the plan. When our "mystery repairman" fixed Zero, though, it's quite a blurred spot. Isoc knows Zero inside out, "has seen him" prior to him coming out of hiding, and Zero admitedly came to, could move but don't know what happened. My hunch is that before Wily could have his merry-way with him completely or whatever, Zero stormed out of wherever he may have been. But we may never know for sure. Enjoy your Aids copy chip plot.

[Zan]

The means used to make Zero evil in X2 was apparently according to sourcebooks the Sigma Virus. Which is quite odd given X5, but if the manga is any indication a chip in the gem is probably a nice way to avoid the matter of Zero's immunity.

Anyway, of course, Wily does occasionally take action to recover the evil Zero he created, but he just doesn't seem to be all that active with it. He might enjoy the evil Zero more, but he's also quite content with just having good Zero own the living daylights out of every Maverick on the planet and show off that he's so much better than X. Whenever he decides to return Zero to his evil self, it seems to be merely on random whims and those moments when he feels the time is right.

As for Isoc not making Zero evil, what you say is hinted at in X6, Zero says that when he woke up, he could move. So he just got the hell out of there, decided to play the hiding game, maybe continued repairs on himself. Only to come out once the fake was taken care of. After that, Isoc made two announcements in X6, that he could take Zero at any given time, and in anger he exclaimed he'd fight X himself. With his sudden erasure, nothing really came from that. What the hell he's doing afterward, who knows, but he sure as hell isn't trying hard.

[Rodrigo Shin]

My post was more aimed at PB's notion of Wily merely repairing Zero time and time again just for him to "be further friends with X".

As for him not trying really hard, whether to blame the character or the scenario writers, I'm riding with the latter. Nothing a retcon can't solve anyway.

[Hypershell]

I see the whole thing as Zero needing some room to grow, and/or having kinks to work out in the evilness strategy.  Let's be honest, neither X nor Zero were at the top of their game in X1, that's for sure.  And comparing the X2 evilness to the X5 evilness is a definite no-brainer for X5.

The whole thing is fun to brainstorm about.  Just how well would have Zero's viral immunity been established in X2, anyway?  Is he possibly building resistance over time, perhaps to the "impurity" of Sigma's data being in the equation?

But yeah, it's not about evil, it's not about conquest, it's about being superior.  If Wily just wanted to kill X for the sake of killing X, he could have done so rather easily in X1 or beforehand, not to mention the whole stab-in-the-back thing I brought up above (something which only Gate's Nightmare Zero ever attempted).  While Wily certainly seems to enjoy a match between them, it's supposed to prove something.  Now where does that leave him after the X5 stalemate?  Back to the drawing board, perhaps waiting to see where they grow from there.  And Sigma's attempts at killing Zero?  Between that and the disembodied X6 voice, it's a safe bet their alliance ended there.  If by chance Wily considers taking Sigma out of the picture a priority and not just a passtime, then I could honestly see him being involved in the copy chip arc.  But that depends on how much continuity means to whoever picks up the X-series after its current break.

I still call you mad for this. Snake is one of easy bosses, along with Top and Magnet. Needle on the other hand is a pain in the ass, his only virtue is the E-tank and the fact that his stage is fairly easy. If it weren't for Gemini's stage being such a pain, I'd rather face him buster only than I would face Needle.

You call me mad, I call you mad.  I can pretty reliably beat Needle Man buster-only and tank-less, more so than Shadow, Spark, or Gemini.  Gemini Man is the toughest buster-only boss for me, by far.  In fact he's the only one of the eight that I haven't actually defeated that way.

Snake Man......okay, so he's not that tough.  Although I by no means consider him as easy as Top or Magnet, but you basically just have to know how to use the terrain in his room.  I guess I just enjoy fighting Needle Man more.

[Bag of Magic Food]

I don't think slavery has been an issue in any MegaMan game, save possibly 9.  Prejudice, certainly, there's tons of that in Zero and in X4.  But the X-series as a whole is more about survival of the fittest.  The philosophy behind Mavericks isn't to "liberate" themselves, but rather that the "inferior" humans are limiting their growth and should thus be annihilated.

Maybe the point of the series was to show how NOT to rebel against slavery.

X' final series is X10, (console: PS1) (^^)

This may not be as ancient, but I'm sure we've all heard someone claim that the X in MegaMan X is actually 10 as a Roman numeral, so the original series ends with the 9th game.  Bonus points if they claim that the ninth game was MegaMan and Bass.  Now that MegaMan 9 has put the latter myth to rest, we need MegaMan 10 to come out to take care of the former.  (And what's with this attitude that one series needs to be ended arbitrarily in order to "kick off" another one?)

There is nothing broken about MM3's weakness ring.  It's just actually two rings.  And the GB games generally do not honor previous weaknesses, in part because they mish-mash bosses from two NES games.

But the GB games do honor previous weaknesses.  It's just that they have to make up new ones in order to fill in the broken rings.  By "broken", I mean that some bosses from the original game's weakness ring were missing, so the GB game had to add a weakness of the boss at the beginning of the broken ring to the weapon at the end of it.  Let me show you:

World 1
Cut -> Elec -> Ice -> Fire -> Cut
GutsMan doesn't appear, but Fire Storm was already CutMan's secondary weakness anyway, so this makes sense.

Bubble -> Heat -> Flash -> Quick -> Bubble
This is pretty much what the weaknesses would end up being if you removed the other four MM2 robots, but this time QuickMan actually seems to be a little weaker to uncharged Atomic Fire than FlashMan, and FlashMan's also weak to Ice Slasher, so that can mix things up a little.

World 2
Clash -> Metal -> Wood -> Air -> Clash
The made-up weakness here is Crash Bomber against MetalMan, since there is no QuickMan.  But wait, wasn't WoodMan also supposed to be weak against Air Shooter?  Hmm...

Magnet -> Hard -> Top -> Needle -> Magnet
Here's the first example of what I mean by two broken rings.  SnakeMan doesn't exist, so Top Spin now works well against NeedleMan.  SparkMan and ShadowMan don't exist, so now Needle Cannon works well against MagnetMan.  All the other damage values are straight out of the NES game, plus a couple of secondary weaknesses to the MM2 weapons thrown in to help you jump into the ring.

World 3
Shadow -> Spark -> Snake -> Gemini -> Shadow
Once again, two weakness rings were tied together.  As there is no Needle Cannon, SnakeMan is weak to Spark Shock, and as there is no Top Spin, ShadowMan is weak to Gemini Laser.  Retaining the secondary weaknesses to Shadow Blade makes it THE weapon to have.

Dust -> Skull -> Dive -> Drill -> Dust
Now we're back to a single break in the ring.  There's neither a Ring Boomerang to use against DustMan nor a ToadMan to use Drill Bomb on, so now DustMan is weak to Drill Bomb, though it's still not that effective.  Incidentally, I think DiveMan may be equally weak to both Dust Crusher and Skull Barrier now, but I'll have to check for sure sometime.

Now why did this game need four guys whose names start with S and three guys whose names start with D?

World 4
Toad -> Bright -> Pharaoh -> Ring -> Toad
This should be getting pretty obvious by now.  I mean, the selection screen starts you on ToadMan, and pushing Right takes you through the weakness ring.  The ending even shows you what weapons to use.  Like DustMan, ToadMan only takes double damage from his made-up weakness rather than the standard triple damage.

Crystal -> Napalm -> Stone -> Charge -> Crystal
Just as obvious as the first set.  I think CrystalMan may take the usual triple damage from Charge Kick, though, since it's hard to use a ground move on a guy who jumps and floats all the time.  What's really interesting is that all 8 Robot Masters in this game have a secondary weakness to a boss from the opposite set of 4, with the exception of StoneMan, who's weak to Ballade Cracker--because what are ya gonna do, make him HALF-frozen by the Flash Stopper?  Taking this into account, you could say that Crystal Eye is PharaohMan's true weakness, since Flash Stopper's actual shots only do 1 point of damage, or that Pharaoh Shot is NapalmMan's (or even ToadMan's) true weakness, since you can charge it up to triple power.

So does this mean that WaveMan should be weak to Gyro Attack?  I mean, in the game that would logically follow this one, he would be...

Xtreme 1
Storm -> Flame -> Chill -> Spark -> Armor -> Morph -> Magna -> Wheel -> Storm
Flame Stag takes the place of Flame Mammoth, basically.  Maybe Spin Wheel was chosen as Storm Eagle's weakness because its charged form resembles Chameleon Sting's uncharged form, but I don't know.  What's really interesting is that even though Morph Moth was given a made-up weakness to Rolling Shield in order to create this ring, he's still weaker to his original weakness, Speed Burner.  Also, if you follow this order, the only item you'll have to backtrack for is the upgrade capsule in Morph Moth's stage, since I believe you need Spin Wheel to break the floor.  (Now how were you supposed to know that floor was breakable without having played the original X2?)

Xtreme 2 is just too mixed up for me to bother with now...

[Hypershell]

Now, THAT, I know.

Neon > Volt > Launch > Flame > Wire > Overdrive > Blast > Tunnel > Neon

Go on, make sense of that one.   Two bosses have their SNES weakness still present in the game and yet overridden.  Wire Sponge's was downplayed and Volt Catfish's was completely eliminated.  And Overdrive Ostrich is weak to Wire Sponge's weapon, while it was originally the other way around.

Seriously, though, the whole "because x boss is absent weakness to y boss's weapon was added" is exactly my point.  You also missed with Xtreme1 that Wheel Gator's SNES weakness isn't Magnet Mine, it's Strike Chain.

[Protoman Blues]

My post was more aimed at PB's notion of Wily merely repairing Zero time and time again just for him to "be further friends with X".

As for him not trying really hard, whether to blame the character or the scenario writers, I'm riding with the latter. Nothing a retcon can't solve anyway.

Well yeah, that's why I was hoping for a MHX2, although probably not as much as others who are more into the story than I am. 

I see the whole thing as Zero needing some room to grow, and/or having kinks to work out in the evilness strategy.  Let's be honest, neither X nor Zero were at the top of their game in X1, that's for sure.  And comparing the X2 evilness to the X5 evilness is a definite no-brainer for X5.

The whole thing is fun to brainstorm about.  Just how well would have Zero's viral immunity been established in X2, anyway?  Is he possibly building resistance over time, perhaps to the "impurity" of Sigma's data being in the equation?

But yeah, it's not about evil, it's not about conquest, it's about being superior.  If Wily just wanted to kill X for the sake of killing X, he could have done so rather easily in X1 or beforehand, not to mention the whole stab-in-the-back thing I brought up above (something which only Gate's Nightmare Zero ever attempted).  While Wily certainly seems to enjoy a match between them, it's supposed to prove something.  Now where does that leave him after the X5 stalemate?  Back to the drawing board, perhaps waiting to see where they grow from there.  And Sigma's attempts at killing Zero?  Between that and the disembodied X6 voice, it's a safe bet their alliance ended there.  If by chance Wily considers taking Sigma out of the picture a priority and not just a passtime, then I could honestly see him being involved in the copy chip arc.  But that depends on how much continuity means to whoever picks up the X-series after its current break.

Wait a tic...how could Wily have just easily killed X in X1 or beforehand?  Does this mean that you're implying that Wily is always in the background in some way, shape, or form?

[Hypershell]

What reason do we have to believe that Wily lacked any consciousness prior to X2?  He has to have been around earlier to build Siggy's new body, one would think.  And what about the pre-X1 Zero-vs-Sigma headache of doom?  The ol' W on the head kinda raises eyebrows.

Zero fairly obviously outclassed X in X1, despite a seeming loss of power since facing Sigma (I know Marshmallow Man will argue to hell with me on that one, but I do not see TDoS Zero having X4 flashback Zero's strength).  Had Wily retaken Zero then, X would have been toast.

[Protoman Blues]

What reason do we have to believe that Wily lacked any consciousness prior to X2?  He has to have been around earlier to build Siggy's new body, one would think.  And what about the pre-X1 Zero-vs-Sigma headache of doom?

Zero fairly obviously outclassed X in X1, despite a seeming loss of power since facing Sigma (I know Marshmallow Man will argue to hell with me on that one, but I do not see TDoS Zero having X4 flashback Zero's strength).  Had Wily retaken Zero then, X would have been toast.

Then there's still the matter of both of Wily's evil Zeros confronting X openly while Nightmare Zero is liable to resort to foul play.

Again, I still don't think Wily has anything to do with Sigma's new body to begin with.  In X2, it seems to me like the X Hunters rebuilt Sigma.  In X3, Dr. Doppler did.  From the look of things, rebuilding the body is pretty easy.  It doesn't have to be Wily.  LoL, plus I still think he's dead.  As for the X4 Flashback W headache, I always assumed that was Zero's "GO KILL X" programming that was taking hold of him.

I don't think Zero outclassed X, but rather it was X's peaceful and gentle personality that held him back from reaching his full, possible Shining Finger potential.  It's possible though.  However, in the X4 flashback, I think it's Zero's raving madness that gives him his extra strength, more than anything else.

[Hypershell]

Again, I still don't think Wily has anything to do with Sigma's new body to begin with.

No kidding that building a Sigma body isn't anything special, that's not what I meant.  That stuff is from Servbot20's collected sourcebook information.

Sagesse (Serges)
Leader of the 3 main Counter Hunters. Like the legendary mad scientist, he is
a super genius! His thought program is believed to exceed even Sigma's, but
because he lacks physical strength, he uses his craftiness to come up with
attacks, while riding the hovering pedestal and Sagesse Tank. He was
responsible for the creation of Sigma's and Zero's new bodies.

[Zan]

LoL, plus I still think he's dead.  As for the X4 Flashback W headache, I always assumed that was Zero's "GO KILL X" programming that was taking hold of him.

Word of God, Wily is alive, he was brought back by the virus. Now look at Zero's infamous unexplained headache moment that transferred the virus from Zero to Sigma.

[Acid]

Is Wily still alive during the Z or ZX saga? Or even the Legends saga?