Ancient Theories/Fanon

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Offline Obdulio

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Reply #25 on: January 05, 2009, 11:54:41 PM
seriously i know x 6 - 8 are offically cannon i just choose to ignore them, i just didnt like them. also if i remember right... Inafune meant to end it at X 5  then capcom went and created x 6 without him knowing about it.
Anyway im sorry i dont mean to start a fight here. @.@

as for anicent theories from back then i remember a few kids at school having some weird theories one of which was that X was Ryu and Zero was Ken. >>0



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 12:05:22 AM
Legends: Sheer number of easter eggs along with everything else.  You really have to twist a lot of minor plot elements around to make even a small connection to the series at that point.  Author intent is clearly to make a new continuity.  

Serges: Ah, well, I'm talking a more literal "is Wily".  And, back then, it would be based on his appearance and "scientist" status than anything else.  Maybe that's where we're going wrong here. As for Isoc, I never brought him up because I do believe there's enough to say that he is Wily.  

But as for Serges, well ... when you have to connect the dots like that, it's where canon crosses the line and becomes fanon, IMHO.  If and when Capcom confirms it, I think you'll have a pretty solid case for it being part of a master plan.  But, right now ... it's too vage to call (by a thin margin, as I admit it makes sense).  And since Serges is unlikely to ever be followed up on again, I'll err on the safe side and say that he is not Wily.  

Truly, I think the real differece between our cases is exactly how much credit we give Capcom.  


Offline Flame

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Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 04:28:16 AM
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Well... I could show you some Day of Sigma production art where he clearly has a saber. But nobody is stopping him from picking up a random weapon like that, after all.
actually, all bickering and everything aside, Id like to see that Concept art if you wouldnt mind.

also, X4 DOES suggest that he had l33t skillz with awords before X2, as he can make a metal pipe clash against a lightsaber. 8D

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 04:56:00 AM
I've seen that art, but I never bothered to save it...

Inafune meant to end it at X 5  then capcom went and created x 6 without him knowing about it.
*smacks Obdulio with his magical talking fish*

First of all, Inafune didn't produce X5 either, he was merely consulted with it.  Secondly, he was describing his initial reaction WHILE THE GAME WAS STILL IN DEVELOPMENT.  As we have been over several times already, Z1 in its finished form makes no sense following X5 directly.  This issue was spotted and addressed before either X6 or Z1 saw release, and pre-release concept =/= canonical continuity.  So that point is completely moot.

Legends: Sheer number of easter eggs along with everything else.  You really have to twist a lot of minor plot elements around to make even a small connection to the series at that point.  Author intent is clearly to make a new continuity.
That something is not established does not mean that it's invalid.  You're merely justifying an assumption, but your perception of what is likely by no means indicates author intent.

Some of the easter-eggs you pointed out (cartoons and comics) are from L2, the same game which also established Irregulars and Elysium, which X5 references.  By then the connection is far more solidified than L1, even if still vague, and as such your argument is invalid.  The only easter eggs that I recall in L1 are the X-Buster and Z-Saber (Zetsaber) items, Roll, and Wily's boat shop (I'm not counting MegaMan's name because that's the name of the series).  However, an easter egg does not constitute an AU.  And I'm not sure if this is exclusive to the U.S. or not, but the game even breaks the fourth wall with its own title if you examine the shelves.

Author intent is that Legends is "disconnected" from the other series in that there was no clear story-relevant tie-in, but an AU means that it can never exist within the current continuity due to conflicting events, there are no such events within Legends.  Legends has no stated timeframe, and takes place on a flooded planet which is a common "doomsday" scenario, and also is in a world where ancient technology surpasses the present.  So not only is the claim of an AU, even at L1's timeframe, complete fanon, it is also highly questionable considering that the timeframe if AT ALL relevant to Earth appears to be an extremely distant future.  All of this at the time of L1 is unconfirmed, possibly unaddressed by the devs, but that doesn't make it invalid.

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Serges: Ah, well, I'm talking a more literal "is Wily".  And, back then, it would be based on his appearance and "scientist" status than anything else.  Maybe that's where we're going wrong here. As for Isoc, I never brought him up because I do believe there's enough to say that he is Wily.
Well, Serges is as much Wily as Isoc is.  They are Wily for the intents and purposes of the story, but they are also Reploids.  Whether his digitized consciousness is jumping ship, or they're remote avatars, or whatever the hell the details there are, that's a whole other bag of chips.

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But as for Serges, well ... when you have to connect the dots like that, it's where canon crosses the line and becomes fanon, IMHO.  If and when Capcom confirms it, I think you'll have a pretty solid case for it being part of a master plan.  But, right now ... it's too vage to call (by a thin margin, as I admit it makes sense).  And since Serges is unlikely to ever be followed up on again, I'll err on the safe side and say that he is not Wily.
While we're on the topic of "connecting the dots", here's the tidbits that didn't make it to the U.S.  In other words, stuff that the Japanese (you know, where these games come from) had from the word go:
-X2, which introduces Serges, happens to also include the first "Wily hint" of the X-series, which is to say the first syllable of his name when Sigma references Zero at the death speech (slightly less vague than our version which offers no name fragments, merely a "Doctor").  So if you're thinking who Sigma is referring to there is something retroactive after X4/Power Fighters, think again.
-Japanese books compare Serges's super-genius nature to the "legendary scientist" of old.
-In the Japanese script, Serges is the *ONLY* character besides Light to ever refer to X as "Rockman."
-Also in the Japanese script, Serges is the only character to reference Dr. Light as X's creator.  And he brings that up because he has issues with being beaten by a creation of Light's.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #29 on: January 06, 2009, 05:01:49 AM
Theres SERIOUSLY more to associate Serges with Wily than Isoc. yet people say "meeeeh Isoc sure, but Serges im not suuuuure~"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 05:27:33 AM
I think they both have plenty.  Beat High Max (before Gate's Lab) as Zero, and it's pretty damn hard to argue against that one.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 05:32:28 AM
Not as strong as the disembodied voice after he is "erased"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Rodrigo Shin

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Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 05:43:54 AM
I was trying to find this production sketch of Zero from MHX that XEBEC had grouped in with some of the Mega Man BN anime, and well, I even ended up butting up on a dickgirl picture of drill hair.

[tornado fang] this [parasitic bomb].

I found some stuff though that's remotely interesting in the proccess, I'll be posting it in the X section.

As far as rumors that started when the Internet was starting to catch on, some guy had a petition that was merely a huge ad for his page saying that Capcom deliberately killed 2D Mega Man in favor of Mega Man Legends and that we had to take up on arms and fight this atrocity.

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The reason for retcon is to cancel out contradictions
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a retcon is a last resort to erase a contradiction
Guys, please let me know when did Gwen Stacy getting retroactively impregnated with Goblin Twins solve any contradiction whatsoever and didn't create a whole set of new ones. TTFN

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 05:44:32 AM
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?



Offline Jericho

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Reply #34 on: January 06, 2009, 06:00:33 AM
Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?

Honestly, this would have been cool, but all the theories presented so far hardly hint at Wily being outright alive. It seems more like he just has a lasting and somewhat malicious will that superseded death.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #35 on: January 06, 2009, 06:01:21 AM
I really wish he didn't.  I'd honestly prefer it if he died after creating Zero.



Offline Flame

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Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 06:04:25 AM
Well, technically, He did. I like to think of X series wily in the same way as X series Light. Dead, yet somewhat alive.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 06:08:55 AM
@Hypershell: Geez, dude, calm down a touch.

I'm sorry, but even after your paragraphs it still seems to be a stretch.  Like I said to Zan, the difference between us is the amount of credit we give to Capcom.

Edit: I wish Wily stayed dead too.  And you can toss Light in that statement as well since his hologram is still quite active.  Touching in X1, kinda dragged on towards the end.


Offline Fxeni

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Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 06:17:09 AM
I still think the X series could have benefited without the virus, period. But that's just me.

As for Fanon... I remember when RMZ was first shown, everyone was clamouring that that wasn't Zero, and some went so far as to say that there was no way in hell that it was actually him. Funny how they were partially right in the end XD (in regards to his body, I mean).



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 06:20:30 AM
Come now, we've had the Virus since Sigma's last form in X2.

It's just what they've done (and not done) with it that has made it terrible.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 06:21:51 AM
I still think the X series could have benefited without the virus, period. But that's just me.


Geez, if we talk about things the X series could do without this will become a very long list indeed!   >BD

Good call!  Toss every virus in the list.  It was a fun idea in X3, but somewhere along the line we needed an essay to get the idea straight.


Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 06:24:18 AM
It was a fun idea in X3, but somewhere along the line we needed an essay to get the idea straight.

If you ever can get it straight; Capcom's latest hint that X might've been the source of all the problems and not Zero really throws a wrench into the works.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 06:29:33 AM
If you ever can get it straight; Capcom's latest hint that X might've been the source of all the problems and not Zero really throws a wrench into the works.
Oh, I'm quite aware of that.

You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poiniant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery.  I dunno if this point was every truly intended anymore, but I kinda wish they stuck to the simplicity of that rather than go nuts with all sorta of different explanations. 


Offline Fxeni

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Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 06:32:53 AM
Oh, I'm quite aware of that.

You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poiniant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery.  I dunno if this point was every truly intended anymore, but I kinda wish they stuck to the simplicity of that rather than go nuts with all sorta of different explanations. 
This is why I though the virus was stupid, and still do. I live with it though :P



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 06:34:32 AM
You know, way back when X1 came out, I thought it was a rather poignant philosophical point that the robots were, essentially, rebelling against slavery.

Ironic; MM9 would have cemented that idea.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #45 on: January 06, 2009, 06:37:16 AM
I don't think slavery has been an issue in any MegaMan game, save possibly 9.  Prejudice, certainly, there's tons of that in Zero and in X4.  But the X-series as a whole is more about survival of the fittest.  The philosophy behind Mavericks isn't to "liberate" themselves, but rather that the "inferior" humans are limiting their growth and should thus be annihilated.  Cain's journal made that pretty clear, and all the way up to XCM I've seen nothing clash with it.

Out of curiosity, am I the only one who thinks it would be better, story wise, to have Dr. Wily just simply having built Zero as his final act of defiance, and simply remain dead?
Well, I don't.  Wily for the most part stays in the background as it is; he only ever appears when Zero's survival is at stake.  For him to be rebuilt any other way would downplay the "mysterious body" aspect of X and Zero, which messes with a lot of story points, especially pre-XCM.  Wily hasn't been milked by any means; quite the contrary, the fact that he was dropped like a rock actually bugs quite a few fans.

As for Light, I like the contribution story-wise in X4-6, and X8.  It adds a sort of otherworldly aspect to the series, not to mention a unique perspective.  This is what I like about the "sentient" holograms.  The "recorded" ones, such as X7's, contribute absolutely nothing when used so late in the story.  They are senseless and forgettable.

As far as rumors that started when the Internet was starting to catch on, some guy had a petition that was merely a huge ad for his page saying that Capcom deliberately killed 2D Mega Man in favor of Mega Man Legends and that we had to take up on arms and fight this atrocity.
KILL HIM

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #46 on: January 06, 2009, 06:54:34 AM
Ironic; MM9 would have cemented that idea.
I like the Zero series much better for this point.  The lines between good and evil there were very effectively blurred, IMHO.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #47 on: January 06, 2009, 06:59:56 AM
I guess I'm just naive, I don't see much blur in genocide.

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #48 on: January 06, 2009, 07:08:22 AM
I guess I'm just naive, I don't see much blur in genocide.
Well, Harpulia is on the "genocide" side, but he's a conflicted sort of guy.  And then you have Elipso and the the guiy in Z4 (who'se name escapes me now) on the "Maverick" side who wind up going too far. 

Not to mention the guys you fight are the protectors of humanity.  You know ... the guys player 1 fights for usually.  And Z1 pretended X was a bad guy in the game until it was revealed that he was only a copy.

Blurry.  Not Shakephere, but effective.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #49 on: January 06, 2009, 08:02:41 AM
What kind of theories were proposed way back in the day, when the NES was still alive, when the Internet wasn't as widespread, etc.?
I remember first getting the Internet and finding out about the MegaMan series toward the end of the SNES's lifespan.  So yeah, there were a lot of proposals about the classic series and X series.  There was one site (which is probably long gone now) that came up with lengthy descriptions of some imagined sequels to both series, including detailed explanations of all the new areas that would appear and abilities to find.  I recall there was an idea for an X game that took place in cyberspace, and a Mega Man 6 for Game Boy which I believe started with Terra stealing MegaMan's Mega Arm and ended with...
- X is Megaman 100 years in the future.
...Dr. Light pushing MegaMan into the stasis capsule that would somehow enable him to be X in the future.  That's how it ends, people!  Meggy gets shoved into a freeze tube with no explanation, and it magically transforms him into Mega Man X!

Megaman and Protoman were once regular humans. Rock got into some accident, (dont remember now) and Protoman was, and I quote, "he was shot in the head, and then the bullet came out the other side with a peice of his brain." and as such, theyre both cyborgs apparently.
I think I saw a MegaMan-esque pirate game with a story like that once.  Rockman Z, maybe?

As for fanon, see Mandi's MM Homepage.
Was there anyone other than Mandi who believed that "BreakMan" was his real name and "ProtoMan" was just Dr. Wily's name for him when he was evil?

-Snake Man's weakness is Spark Shock (inadequate explanation of MM3's weapon cycle, suggested order began with Magnet Man and ended with Needle Man)
This was true in the Game Boy game, though, since it actually had to tie the broken weakness rings together.

hair being a mantle
Yeah, Zero's got a cool yellow cape, all right.

dynamo being vava being forte
Hey, how about Dynamo being DynamoMAN?

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Serges isn't exactly a reacurring character here

Isoc begs to differ... heck, Wily begs to differ. >.>
MegaMan Xtreme begs to differ!  Ahaha!