Disney/Lucasfilm, EpVII coming Dec. 2015, post-RotJ EU non-canon

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Offline Quickman

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That might've been more in jest, as she loves the fandom and was one of the first to confirm her return.  She makes regular convention appearances.


Offline Protoman Blues

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Max von Sydow was fuckin' Ming the Merciless! He's awesome.

Also, pretty nice cast, but not that many women. That's too bad.



Offline Mirby

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That might've been more in jest, as she loves the fandom and was one of the first to confirm her return.  She makes regular convention appearances.
Or maybe I'm going off of like 30-year-old info after the Holiday Special lol

Info older than I am!

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Protoman Blues

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Offline Quickman

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In some cases where the canon is so tangled up, such as with DC, I can justify a good Crisis to rectify everything.  With DC and Marvel, you have writing by a committee.  Multiple writers on one project.  This is where continuity errors crop up, either in art or story, or both, due to that committee.  Everyone is bringing in their own thoughts, their own ideas, and their own methods.

The end result of that committee is a tangled Gordian knot of continuity that needs to be nuked from orbit in order to fix it.

The thing is, in regards to the novel side of the EU, you usually don't see books written by a committee.  Granted, the EU didn't have the most illustrious of canon and there are many, many things about it that fans can't stand.  But, each novel wasn't written by a committee.  You'd have an editorially-driven storyline, but each book wasn't written by a committee.  You had one author's ideas, one author's thoughts, and one author's voice.  The canon, for the most part, went along a smoother track, with retcons in place when G-canon contradictions would show up.

And honestly, as much as it would grate on our nerves at times, we were just fine with that.

The thing about canon to EU fans is it allows us to trace things back to a source.  We can watch the progression of a character based on their stories.  If retcons are in place to explain a character's personality quirks, we go back through past stories and find the symptomology to match up.  We like our canon because it gives us a universe; it gives us a world.

If you eliminate canon in a franchise, you essentially eliminate the overarching world it exists in.  Personally, I'd rather be able to trace events through multiple stories and watch my favorite characters grow than have a disjointed series of meandering events in a world where absolutely nothing matches up.

What that article fails to mention are the good things about canon.  Canon gives us continuity.  Continuity for world-building is a good thing.  There are consistencies, there are things that happen because something else happened.  These things exist in our own world, and when they're applied to fiction, they give a franchise a grounding in reality.  Character see consequences that follow them, just as we do.  Characters grow in response to various incidences, just as we do.  And characters can expect something in their world to work the same way every time they use it, just as we do.

Let's face it; if there was no continuity, you'd be starting your car a different way each day, and it'd look different every time you see it.  Our lives have a canon, so why shouldn't our fiction?


Offline Protoman Blues

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If you eliminate canon in a franchise, you essentially eliminate the overarching world it exists in.  Personally, I'd rather be able to trace events through multiple stories and watch my favorite characters grow than have a disjointed series of meandering events in a world where absolutely nothing matches up.

This is where you and I disagree. I've always been more of a fan of Elseworlds stories, stories that are outside the Canon. With DC, Kingdom Come, New Frontier, Justice, All Star Superman, and so many more DC stories that are non-canon are just superb pieces of writing. With Marvel, I love Miles Morales, and I love that they actually had the balls to kill Peter Parker in a respectful way.

Hell, even with MegaMan, I dislike the fact that the Classic series and the X series connect canonically, cause I still think it makes no sense. Midichlorians are actually canon, and they're incredibly stupid. This is where continuity fails at times, and fails hard. I'd rather the Prequel movies never happened because they are so insanely shitty that I would like to go back and erase them OR redo them, which I'm hoping with all my Dark Force powers that Disney actually does.

But that's probably not going to happen, and it is in this where I agree with the author.

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The fans will support whichever of the continuities they prefer, either because they have affection for the author, or because they like one more than the other, or maybe some of them will support all of them because they like all of them. That’s how it should be.

This is the ultimate truth of the matter. Personally, I choose to think that the prequels didn't happen. Not because they "mess with my childhood" or something like that, but because they're just simply so incredibly shitty and can be done so much better....like most likely it had been in the EU before these [parasitic bomb] movies come out. It's why I love the KOTOR games so much, because you can choose your own path. Same with certain Star Trek U books. 

Mind you, this is not me saying I agree entirely with her article. I think a lot of it is kinda cynical and missing the point of why fans are pissed, especially the DC fans. [tornado fang]ing with established canon does make people upset, like with Spidey or the New 52. Plus you don't know what you're getting from the result of said fuckery. That has nothing to do with it being canon, but more with it being stupid. Like the Midichlorians & Jake Lloyd's "acting" skills.

And ultimately, like you said, this is about how they handled it, which is exactly why the New 52 and Spidey were so [tornado fang]ing awful.

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What that article fails to mention are the good things about canon.  Canon gives us continuity.  Continuity for world-building is a good thing.  There are consistencies, there are things that happen because something else happened.  These things exist in our own world, and when they're applied to fiction, they give a franchise a grounding in reality.  Character see consequences that follow them, just as we do.  Characters grow in response to various incidences, just as we do.  And characters can expect something in their world to work the same way every time they use it, just as we do.

Let's face it; if there was no continuity, you'd be starting your car a different way each day, and it'd look different every time you see it.  Our lives have a canon, so why shouldn't our fiction?

Because it's fiction, and you can mess with what happens, or has happened in a fictional universe. You cannot do that in your life. I do get in my car & start it a different way each day, whether it's plug in my cell phone first, or my iPod, or whatever. Sometimes the car doesn't start cause you forgot to turn off the lights and the battery is drained. Sometimes I take the bus. While characters respond differently to different situations, you're still in control of what those characters do and how they respond. And, more to the point, you know the outcome of what that character learns and how his or her story continues. Life doesn't work like that.

If an author doesn't like something in a story, they can go back and fix it. Not that they always should, because then you get Greedo shooting first. We cannot do that in real life. If someone went back and completely removed Midichlorians from existence, I think .0000001% of Star Wars fans would never complain, and actually cheer. They can do that. We cannot. If I could, I'd completely rewrite all of 2012 from April to December.



Offline Quickman

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Oh, we hate midichlorians and want them wiped from existence, along with the ludicrous notion that all the stormtroopers are clones. 

Canon in and of itself is not a bad thing.  I try to maintain some level of canon with my own stuff, as I feel that it helps to keep things organized.  To eliminate canon entirely is a ridiculous idea.  It's basically eliminating organization.

The article seems confused as to what exactly canonicity is.  It's referring to canon as story arcs and franchise universes and their internal canon and levels of canon.  It condemns internal franchise story timelines while saying that all canon should be eliminated. 

It's one thing to dislike a story's universe and internal timeline.  It's another thing to condemn canon in fiction, period.  Canon, when boiled down to its most basic components is basically organization of disparate story elements into a recognizable pattern.  Names, characters, places, events.  Keeping track of these things is where canon comes in.  It helps to keep things consistent.

I'd love to be able to retcon large chunks of my life when I can and i'd love for it to have the most pliable of canons.  But, it doesn't.  That sucks.  However, I still like some semblance of consistency.  I want my apartment layout to remain the same day to day, not change on the whims of the universe because it got bored and decided that my current living quarters were dull.


Offline Protoman Blues

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I'd love to be able to retcon large chunks of my life when I can and i'd love for it to have the most pliable of canons.  But, it doesn't.  That sucks.  However, I still like some semblance of consistency.  I want my apartment layout to remain the same day to day, not change on the whims of the universe because it got bored and decided that my current living quarters were dull.

LoL, we again differ there. I actually love rearranging my room once in a while. Or loved doing it, as I cannot anymore due to lack of room.  8D



Offline Quickman

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Oh rearranging the room is one thing, I meant the layout of rooms within the environment.  I don't want to wake up one day and find my bathroom in a new place. :P


Offline Protoman Blues

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Haha, that could actually be fun. Twisted, but fun!



Offline Zan

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Canon and continuity exist only in relative terms. From either perspective, one or the other is ignored to promote narrative consistency. If it fits: it fits. If it doesn't: it doesn't. The EU already has problems of consistency within itself, why do these new movies matter any more or less? Just consider them an alternate telling of the post-RotJ era.



Offline Quickman

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Ooooookay... so while I don't have the topic to show because a mod got rid of the initial post (the topic exists, albeit locked, but the post was edited out completely), some new member on TFN started a rant topic about the death of the EU and pretty much started the post off with threatening suicide.

I'm pissed off and saddened over the loss of our beloved EU, but damn.


Offline Sakura Leic

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Eh that's some nerds for you, I hope someone talks him out of it.

Current playthrough: Chrono Trigger and God Eater Ressurection


Offline Protoman Blues

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That's sad.  :(



Offline Phi

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It's a good thing the mod got rid of that post. That doesn't really give the forum a welcoming presence.

What he needs is serious mental help. Simply talking to him may not help; not through the internet, I mean.



Offline Sakura Leic

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It's a good thing the mod got rid of that post. That doesn't really give the forum a welcoming presence.

What he needs is serious mental help. Simply talking to him may not help; not through the internet, I mean.
Yeah I agree with that, I hope the people close to him are able to notice this.  He really does need some help.

Current playthrough: Chrono Trigger and God Eater Ressurection


Offline Quickman

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Basically, the gist of the post was ranting about how he's done with SW.  It was only the very beginning where he said that he was sitting there with a revolver to his throat.  After that, it became a rant about how pissed he is at Disney, snipes against Disney, and how he's "[tornado fang]ing done."

Part of me hopes that it was just a rage-fueled post designed to get attention and get Disney to overturn their decision based on his actions, but I'm not sure.  The mod didn't address that portion in the edit, instead directing him to an existing thread to continue the discussion in a civilized manner.

I'll add the guy to my user watch list and see if he turns up again.


Offline Sakura Leic

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Basically, the gist of the post was ranting about how he's done with SW.  It was only the very beginning where he said that he was sitting there with a revolver to his throat.  After that, it became a rant about how pissed he is at Disney, snipes against Disney, and how he's "[tornado fang]ing done."

Part of me hopes that it was just a rage-fueled post designed to get attention and get Disney to overturn their decision based on his actions, but I'm not sure.  The mod didn't address that portion in the edit, instead directing him to an existing thread to continue the discussion in a civilized manner.

I'll add the guy to my user watch list and see if he turns up again.
I hope it's the unlikely event that the guy is a troll, but there's no wat of knowing that.

Current playthrough: Chrono Trigger and God Eater Ressurection


Offline Zan

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the death of the EU

What makes these new movies any less "expanded universe" than anything else not part of the original trilogy?



Offline Rin

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Honestly saying, wasn't the EU a cluttered mess?
I once recall reading there was a [tornado fang]ing Sith who could destroy a planet with how much power over the force he had.
I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of good things about the EU, but in the end... maybe this is for the best? I mean no disrespect for the fans, but even though it might be no longer canon in the eyes of Disney, does that [tornado fang]ing change the fact all of these stories still exist? If anything, these things becoming AU or something, seems like a good thing.

What I mean to say is, these stories from EU still happened, even if no longer canon. Not everything needs to happen in one universe, and it's not like people can't write fanfics or draw comics based on the now "destroyed" EU.

Also, anyone who threates to kill himself over something like this, deserves not pity, but a strong whack over the head. Preferably couple of whacks and stern talking to.



Offline Quickman

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What makes these new movies any less "expanded universe" than anything else not part of the original trilogy?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm classifying the ST as. :P

In terms of the EU itself, yes, it was a mess.  It was a cluttered mess from hell.  Its illegitimacy will not stop me from writing and drawing from it, and I'm hoping that its rebranding as "Legends" will not deter publishers from making more stories in that continuity.

The new EU (NU) will be pushed most by Lucasfilm Licensing as they get authors and artists on board, so for a while at least, the Legends continuity will no doubt be forgotten until it's strip-mined for ideas.


Offline Quickman

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Worth the double post.

Bruce Timm was one of the artists auditioning to do the TPM comic adaptation.

If he did SW comics... I'd mess my pants in joy. 


Offline Fxeni

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Worth the double post.

Bruce Timm was one of the artists auditioning to do the TPM comic adaptation.

If he did SW comics... I'd mess my pants in joy.
... I want that now. I'm sure he could have made TPM better.



Offline Phi

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Ooooh yeah, you can tell just by glancing at the character designs that it was made by Timm.

I would have loved to give that a read!



Offline Protoman Blues

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... I want that now. I'm sure he could have made TPM better.

Without a doubt he could've made it better.

Hell, let him do it NOW!