Is possible to achieve Balance in fighting games?

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Offline Acid

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Reply #25 on: April 12, 2011, 09:43:28 PM
Everyone in Arc's Fist of the North star (PS2) is so broken that the game is balanced, in a twisted kind of way.

Except Toki. He's broken broken.



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Reply #26 on: April 13, 2011, 03:14:40 AM
Sounds like fun.

You know, I wouldn't underestimate the value of a good imbalance.  Who here HASN'T enjoyed a nice broken character, weapon, or feature?  I mean, if Godzilla Unleashed were balanced, we wouldn't have Biollante in there, and she's just the most badass giant plant/reptile hybrid ever.

...I know, I know, nobody besides me cares about that game.  But to a freakishly nerdy kaiju fan, having a giant mass of razor-toothed tentacles as a playable character is a big deal.

No offense Shelly but that's a really bad way to argue this. For example, I may as well say that I find it harder to deal with X middle tier character in MvC2 and that I even suck at using the god tiers, but does that change that they're horribly broken? No.
And at what point did I say that my experience was the standard for all players?  None.  The subjective nature was kind of my point.  If you re-read my post, I did not say that such characters are not broken; I said that they are only broken in a very specific format which, contrary to popular belief, does not directly carry over to the game as a whole.  "Balance", on the other hand, DOES apply to the game as a whole, and therein lies the problem of presuming that the tier list alone indicates a lack of balance.  I'm not going to tell you that Brawl's roster is balanced, it isn't.  The tier list just isn't the reason why.

Just because a character's top tier in a fighter doesn't mean that they're easy to pick up.
Remember who you're talking to:  Mr.-still-not-over-the-exclusion-of-Mewtwo-who-had-one-of-the-highest-learning-curves-of-Melee?  I am in NO WAY referring to how easy they are to pick up.  I'm referring to how I, personally, handle them after having given the entire game's roster a fair shake through the varying modes and challenges.  All I said was that there is such a thing as player affinity, that is how a character best matches one's personal play style, not that any such thing invalidates every other character comparison which the gaming community has established.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #27 on: April 13, 2011, 03:20:41 AM
For the record, I love Final Smashes. They're awesome, and who cares if they're broken or not! LoL, Toon Link has easily one of the worst Final Smashes in the game, but I still love it! XD



Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #28 on: April 13, 2011, 04:40:29 AM
The best way to balance a fighting game?

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Offline Solar

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Reply #29 on: April 13, 2011, 04:44:04 AM
Everyone in Arc's Fist of the North star (PS2) is so broken that the game is balanced, in a twisted kind of way.

Except Toki. He's broken broken.

He's Jesus, he should be.

If you re-read my post, I did not say that such characters are not broken; I said that they are only broken in a very specific format which, contrary to popular belief, does not directly carry over to the game as a whole.


Well, honestly, I just don't see how having items on would make them any less broken than they are.


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Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #30 on: April 13, 2011, 04:55:56 AM
Actually, there's a hack of SSBB called Brawl- (parody of Brawl+).  It takes the characters and makes them all super-broken, and the game ends up surprisingly balanced.  The cool thing is that it's really accessible to casual players, because really, who doesn't love the joy of running around with characters that are super-powered.  Broken features are okay in single-player games where you're just fighting the COM, but it can backfire in a competitive setting unless there's equal distribution.  If one character has a "win button" and the others don't, what would make anyone want to choose the other characters, you know?

Remember who you're talking to:  Mr.-still-not-over-the-exclusion-of-Mewtwo-who-had-one-of-the-highest-learning-curves-of-Melee?  I am in NO WAY referring to how easy they are to pick up.  I'm referring to how I, personally, handle them after having given the entire game's roster a fair shake through the varying modes and challenges.  All I said was that there is such a thing as player affinity, that is how a character best matches one's personal play style, not that any such thing invalidates every other character comparison which the gaming community has established.  Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

Ah, that clarifies your point a bit, sorry about that.  Personally I'm a guy who likes to experiment with different playing styles, and I tend to stray towards the balanced types.  I do enjoy watching defensive characters play, despite the fact that they have a reputation for being a dull watch.  I've been using Mario for some time now, and he's one of those characters that you has to go through blood, sweat, and tears to net KOs, given that he's essentially the Ryu of the game and doesn't really have anything special.  Though using the cape to swat recovery moves is a nice touch, so I can't complain in that regard.  And as a Melee Kirby user, I feel your pain.  Especially when my best friend uses Marth.  :'(

As far as Final Smashes go, the same rule of distribution applies.  I mean, you've got great ones like Sonic/Space Animals that can net plenty of KOs, but as a Mario/Kirby user you feel gypped.  With Mario's it ends up being a very straightforward move that everyone can react to and evade on release, and with Kirby's you can literally spot-dodge at the right moment and avoid damage altogether.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #31 on: April 13, 2011, 05:02:13 AM
I try to use Mario, but my problem is always that I play him like Dr. Mario.



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Reply #32 on: April 13, 2011, 05:07:52 AM
I used Dr. Mario over Mario initially in Melee, but then I came to learn that wall-jumping was too cool to miss out on, and I learned to appreciate Mario's superior agility.  Times like this are where I wish people didn't slap the label "clone" on characters who happen to have similar fighting styles.  You simply cannot play Doc the same way you'd play Mario (pills > fireballs), as those differences that seem small make a world of difference in a real match.  I still like Doc, granted, and do miss him dearly.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #33 on: April 13, 2011, 05:28:28 AM
Not just the Pills, but the smashes were different as well!



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Reply #34 on: April 13, 2011, 05:40:52 AM
Oh yeah, definitely!  Doc's Fsmash had little to no range on it, despite the fact that it would mess someone up if it hit them.  Cape was different in size, Uppercut actually did respectable damage and actually KO'ed people, and he was overall a lot more power-focused than his normal counterpart.  He felt slightly heavier, though, and it was harder for him to get back to the stage than it was for Mario.  I miss all of the "clones", really, as Roy and Pichu were cool in their own right.  Mewtwo wasn't even close to anyone else in the game in terms of execution, and he still got axed anyway.  How Lucario's supposed to be a replacement is beyond me.

Keeping it on topic, I did like how despite the crude advantage the higher-ups had in Melee, bottom tier guys could still compete.  L-Cancelling made Bowser's aerials far safer and kept you from getting whipped too badly, though his weight made him easy combo-fodder.  Kirby had his trademark Kirbycides which allowed him to net surprise KOs (at the expense of his own life), and pretty much anyone was useable.  I actually don't like Melee's high-execution requirement in higher levels of play, though.  L-Cancelling should be automatic (be honest, is there ever any reason to not do it?), and while stuff like Wavedashing is cool, doing it all the time as a means of travel seems pretty cumbersome.  I play Street Fighter competitively, and TBPH Melee seems far harder in terms of execution at a high level.

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Offline Akamaru

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Reply #35 on: April 13, 2011, 06:01:12 AM
I'll hide you.  I never get enough of SUPER DRAGON POWER, after all. 8)
Damn you!  O:<
I used Dr. Mario over Mario initially in Melee, but then I came to learn that wall-jumping was too cool to miss out on, and I learned to appreciate Mario's superior agility.  Times like this are where I wish people didn't slap the label "clone" on characters who happen to have similar fighting styles.  You simply cannot play Doc the same way you'd play Mario (pills > fireballs), as those differences that seem small make a world of difference in a real match.  I still like Doc, granted, and do miss him dearly.
Having clones is what makes the game have more variety. If your opponent is used to you using a character, and you can't seem to beat him, picking a "clone" often helps in messing him up. An example was that everyone was used to me using Roy and his power hits. So in order to mix it up, I picked Marth. At the cost of some power, suddenly, I was too fast for my opponents to defend. What they were expecting out of your fighting style, suddenly, they can't tell what I was going to do. That is my only complaint about Brawl. All characters are so different from each other that you can't really use many characters with the same style of fighting you would normally use, whether it being a rushdown or a game of keepaway. Sure you can use multiple characters, but you can get the sense of "I totally mastered this guy" in Brawl.


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Reply #36 on: April 13, 2011, 06:08:31 AM
I smell ass kicking in brawl to test these theories! >D


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Offline Solar

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Reply #37 on: April 13, 2011, 06:40:00 AM
Sorry Aka, but this is one of the few times I feel the need to call an opinion wrong. How is variety of all things something bad?

Honestly, the more individual characters the better. If you know your fundamentals there's no reason you can't play multiple characters effectively.


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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #38 on: April 13, 2011, 06:41:08 AM
I smell ass kicking in brawl to test these theories! >D

I agree! It will soon be time for a FREE FOR ALLLLLLLLL!



Offline Akamaru

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Reply #39 on: April 13, 2011, 09:26:59 AM
Sorry Aka, but this is one of the few times I feel the need to call an opinion wrong. How is variety of all things something bad?

Honestly, the more individual characters the better. If you know your fundamentals there's no reason you can't play multiple characters effectively.
Maybe I wrote it wrong or something, but to summarize: Variety is good in clones. No variety clones made Brawl a bit weak in that regard.

Meh, totally true. Like I said though, unless you keep on using the guy, sometimes I don't feel like I have mastered him at all.


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Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #40 on: April 13, 2011, 09:33:30 AM
I agree! It will soon be time for a FREE FOR ALLLLLLLLL!
[parasitic bomb] I better get brawl soon



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #41 on: April 14, 2011, 11:03:02 PM
Well, honestly, I just don't see how having items on would make them any less broken than they are.
Sonic, Yoshi, and Jigglypuff need a word with you.  High ground or air speed can be a tremendous boon depending on which items are active.  It's also a whole new batch of strategy and evasion to contend with when you're on the wrong side of an item battle.

It's not just items, either.  It's also terrain, it's also stage hazards, it's also free-for-alls over one-on-ones, it could be team battles, and occasionally it's even the 2.0 damage ratio.  These are all things that the tier list ignores, and which otherwise play a large part to your average Smash gamer, and they can RADICALLY alter the game's balance.

Bowser, for example, has a "Win Button" in 2.0 Damage, that being his Flying Slam, which will guarantee a KO in all but the largest stages (being a grab attack, it's also unblockable).  He generally blows otherwise.  Larger characters in general (Snake and Dedede) also have a harder time in 3-or-4-players matchups due to being easier targets, doubly so when somebody's aiming a throwing item at you.

Yoshi is great around slopes, seeings how his eggs, roll, and drop moves allow him to easily attack at odd angles.  He's also good for maneuvering around platforms thanks to his high air speed.  And the flinch-resistance of his second jump helps him to escape hectic areas.

Also, going into Final Smashes, the Landmaster's effectiveness varies GREATLY depending on terrain.  In Final Destination, Battlefield, and the like, it's pretty much guaranteed KOs.  In Yoshi's Island Melee, or Spear Pillar, it can easily be laughable.

As far as Final Smashes go, the same rule of distribution applies.  I mean, you've got great ones like Sonic/Space Animals that can net plenty of KOs, but as a Mario/Kirby user you feel gypped.  With Mario's it ends up being a very straightforward move that everyone can react to and evade on release, and with Kirby's you can literally spot-dodge at the right moment and avoid damage altogether.
Super Sonic I see as compensating for Sonic's generally low power otherwise; there's a reason not every character has it.  It's also one of those moves that the user has to know what they're doing; sensitive controls makes for easy spot-dodging if you don't think to attempt hovering.  Most other Final Smashes are devastating but avoidable if you're good enough.  I've already used the Yoshi Bomb to dodge Marth's Critical Hit, and damn that felt good. 8)  They are SUPPOSED to be overwhelming, but they're usually (not always) not outright impossible.  ROB's pisses me off, though.

There are some that really feel underpowered, and I agree that Mario is one of them.  Bowser, which I often rant about, is another, and Pit's leaves him pretty open as well.  Seems like the early characters got jiped and the more off-the-wall late additions got the crazy power.

Mewtwo wasn't even close to anyone else in the game in terms of execution, and he still got axed anyway.  How Lucario's supposed to be a replacement is beyond me.
They're loner semi-humanoid Pokemon, they have chargeable projectiles, a similar forward smash, and command some glowy supernatural power.  They're pretty much it.  The general "fighting style" of Mewtwo is NOTHING like Lucario's.  If anything I think Zelda is closer to Mewtwo in terms of play style, but there truly is no substitute for him.

Quote
Keeping it on topic, I did like how despite the crude advantage the higher-ups had in Melee, bottom tier guys could still compete.  L-Cancelling made Bowser's aerials far safer and kept you from getting whipped too badly, though his weight made him easy combo-fodder.  Kirby had his trademark Kirbycides which allowed him to net surprise KOs (at the expense of his own life), and pretty much anyone was useable.  I actually don't like Melee's high-execution requirement in higher levels of play, though.  L-Cancelling should be automatic (be honest, is there ever any reason to not do it?), and while stuff like Wavedashing is cool, doing it all the time as a means of travel seems pretty cumbersome.  I play Street Fighter competitively, and TBPH Melee seems far harder in terms of execution at a high level.
Wave-dashing was an accident, like the Minus World of NES days.  Agreed on L-Canceling; there's no point in having a manual switch to recover from your own moves.  If it's depending on when somebody hits you (catching yourself on the ground after you're sent flying), then that's a whole other story.

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Offline Solar

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Reply #42 on: April 14, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
Sonic, Yoshi, and Jigglypuff need a word with you.  High ground or air speed can be a tremendous boon depending on which items are active.  It's also a whole new batch of strategy and evasion to contend with when you're on the wrong side of an item battle.  Some of them aren't as guaranteed-win as the tournament community seems to think; I for one seem to be subject to some kind of curse when handling the rocket launcher.

It's not just items, though.  It's also terrain, it's also stage hazards, it's also free-for-alls over one-on-ones, and occasionally it's even the 2.0 damage ratio.  These are all things that the tier list ignores, and which otherwise play a large part to your average Smash gamer.

Bowser, for example, has a "Win Button" in 2.0 Damage, that being his Flying Slam, which will guarantee a KO in all but the largest stages.  He generally blows otherwise.  Larger characters also have a harder time in 3-or-4-players matchups due to being easier targets.

Yoshi is great around slopes and platforms, seeings how his eggs, roll, and drop moves allow him to easily attack at odd angles.  He's also good for maneuvering around platforms thanks to his high air speed.


I'm not questioning items and that stuff affect things, I'm just saying that I don't see how it makes the supposed god tiers less broken than they already are. Also, I'm pretty sure they don't ignore terrain, considering the whole stage counter-picking thing, and honestly I don't think stage hazards are worth considering seeing how they affect everyone equally, I'd consider it in the same category as mobility and similar.

Tier lists are for the way the game is played anyways. The usual tier list for Smash is for the whole "no items and stages banned" way of playing, if you want you can make an "everything allowed" tier list or a "2.0 damage" tier list or "Invisible Lighting Super Spicy Curry" tier list or whatever and it'd still be equally as valid as long as you know what you're talking about since it's another thing entirely. Don't forget the whole "tiers don't even matter at all at a casual level unless the game is horribly broken" thing too.


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Offline Acid

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Reply #43 on: April 14, 2011, 11:31:21 PM
Speaking of Brawl,
I never really played much with RPM, didn I? At least not to the extend that I got actually good.



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Reply #44 on: April 14, 2011, 11:31:54 PM
Brawl's old enough that most of us are a bit rusty by now, I think.

Tier lists are for the way the game is played anyways. The usual tier list for Smash is for the whole "no items and stages banned" way of playing
That, sir, was my whole point.

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Offline Solar

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Reply #45 on: April 14, 2011, 11:35:39 PM
Yes, but I was asking how items make Brawl's god tiers any less broken, hell explain to me how it wouldn't make them even more broken.


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Reply #46 on: April 14, 2011, 11:43:03 PM
I believe I already tackled two points on that issue.
1. Traveling speed is more important.
2. Large character size is more of a liability.

Third, though I don't think this needs to be stated, is that all characters have mostly equal access and effectiveness with them (some exceptions with clobbering items).

Fourth, Meta Knight and Dedede don't really have the best Final Smashes.  MK's is one of those high-precision moves, by all means good, but there are better, and it's easily wasted.  Dedede's is comparable to Pit's.

The "Standard God Tier" characters are still strong characters, their strengths in a particular niche still exist in the rest of the game.  They're just not as overwhelming when there are more variables at work, and Smash is a game which was built to be played with a great many variables in place, merely allowing their removal as an option.

Also, on environments, I'm aware that Brawl's tournament style allows for some more stage flexability than Melee's did, but there's still a large variety of environments that don't get safely tucked behind a "banned curtain" in general play.  Also, much of the stage selection of Brawl's tournament play is a result of Brawl's unimaginative level selection and over-use of large flat aeras (Smashville, Yoshi's Island Brawl, etc.).  There are a few more varied levels that are considered permissible, but for every Pokemon Stadium Melee that's allowed, there's plenty more banned Green Hill Zones where it came from.  It's a wider niche than the Melee tournaments of yester-year, but still a niche, and one which the gaming populace as a whole is in no way bound by.

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Offline Solar

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Reply #47 on: April 15, 2011, 12:34:26 AM
I believe I already tackled two points on that issue.
1. Traveling speed is more important.
2. Large character size is more of a liability.

Third, though I don't think this needs to be stated, is that all characters have mostly equal access and effectiveness with them (some exceptions with clobbering items).

Fourth, Meta Knight and Dedede don't really have the best Final Smashes.  MK's is one of those high-precision moves, by all means good, but there are better, and it's easily wasted.  Dedede's is comparable to Pit's.

Speaking more specifically of MK
1-Which he has
2-Which he doesn't
3-I'd say that depends more on luck than anything, one moment the item will spawn right next to you, the other it'll be all the way across the stage =/
4-It's irrelevant if MK grabs the Smash Ball since his oponents don't get to use their superior FS in that case, which I assume being him it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Last I checked D3 wasn't one of the gods anyways btw  (top 3 are MK, Snake and Diddy supposedly, and if we really do mean god tiers, then only MK).


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Reply #48 on: April 15, 2011, 01:57:49 AM
I smell ass kicking in brawl to test these theories! >D

It has been 2 years since I have considered myself good with Marth. 2.

This summer, I become godly again. Just for this. Also, I really miss smacking folks around with my random menagerie of Mario/Lucas/Samus (New Technology)/Fox/C. Falcon/Ganondorf and Pit.

[parasitic bomb] this post makes me realize that I just miss playing and being in the mix with RPM. ;__;

Posted on: April 14, 2011, 06:44:46 PM
On another note, this topic comes at a very good time for myself. What's everyone's thoughts on comeback mechanics like X-Factor in MvC3? Also, if you guys really want to see balanced in the manner that most people talk up nowadays, play SSFIV. Then pay attention to how people come out of the woodwork claiming that it's boring to watch or footsies/spacing fundamentals/mind games are boring to watch. The different opinions I've seen between people talking down and hyping SSSIV when Marvel was up and coming and now Arcade Edition looming in the future lead me to believe that true balance is impossible and developers should just try their hardest to make fighting games and competitive games in general where everything is as viable and flexible as possible.

Edit: Totally random, but Diddy is top 3 now? Wat?



Offline Solar

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Reply #49 on: April 15, 2011, 02:23:47 AM
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

*shrugs*

I don't mind X-factor that much other than lv3 needing a nerf and how unfair it is (to the characters, not players). I mean, in X-factor characters like Sent become walking machines of death (well, Sentinel an even bigger one) either in power or speed, yet Ammy's might as well just make her glow, wouldn't make much difference >__>


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