Topic: Is possible to achieve Balance in fighting games?

[Waifu]

I never notcied that some characters in some fighting games got nerfed until I played them myself. I realized that some games aren't as balanced as I thought and it bothers me. Why some designers feel the need to nerf some characters while upping others? Is it possible to achieve a sort of balance in fighting game swher eit depends on the players ability as well as the characters strength and weaknesses?

[Black Mage J]

Probably, there's some Jewario video where this fighting game prick faps about how he loves the balanced games.
His face and way of talking makes him seem like the jerkass nerd, he's also on BlisteredThumbs.

[Hypershell]

Of course it is:  No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

Variance (read: fun) by its nature disrupts balance, especially so because as the game gets more complex, game developers can't possibly predict every strategy that's going to come around.  Even the strictest of traditional fighters run into that as the roster grows.

Ideally I prefer to not see anyone weakened.  Sometimes, though, and this isn't even exclusive to the fighting genre, but characters come along who simply need a buff.  Nobody knows why they were made such weenies in the first place, but they just were.

[Wanda Bear]

No because people would complain about how "weak" their cahracter is. >.> if I could do one thing to balance fighting games, it would be to balance out the health in tatsunoko vs capcom and in marvel vs capcom 3. Mostly becAuse Zero needs it.

[Hypershell]

I actually understand why Zero is low on health in TvC.  He's a freaking engine of destruction, not to mention he near completely negates any advantage that small-size characters like Roll and Joe are looking for.  Can't speak for MvC.

That's the other problem with balance: There really is such a thing as player affinity.  It's not JUST personal preference, sometimes a particular character is just a better fit for someone's style.

The personal most hurt I ever was by an "underpowered" character, would be Bowser in SSB Brawl.  Flying Slam is great, but beyond that he feels woefully underpowered compared to new heavyweights like Ike, Dedede, and Snake.  Damn near every aerial move he has is punished with tremendous lag, and his Final Smash is laughable.  Mario can flip it with his cape, for God's sake.

[Wanda Bear]

I actually understand why Zero is low on health in TvC.  He's a freaking engine of destruction, not to mention he near completely negates any advantage that small-size characters like Roll and Joe are looking for.  Can't speak for MvC.

I think the person who best fits that description is that frigid overpowered 75% screen range Kaiji no soki. >____> Hate him.

[Akamaru]

Nope. Because what one person thinks is balanced, another will say bull-blam-. My only theory in a balanced game is just one character and for the people to fight with just that character. Of course it will never sell, but oh well.

[Protoman Blues]

I think the person who best fits that description is that frigid overpowered 75% screen range Kaiji no soki. >____> Hate him.

Yeah I've used Soki, and his range is nuuuuuuuuts. You know, we totally need to play some TatsuCap one day Wanda!

[Wanda Bear]

Yeah I've used Soki, and his range is nuuuuuuuuts. You know, we totally need to play some TatsuCap one day Wanda!

Pssh, you're so on. >D

[Protoman Blues]

Pssh, you're so on. >D

BAH-RING IT! 

[Solar]

Of course it's possible, balanced games (read: where pretty much everyone has an actual chancce at winning) exist already. Sure, even in those games there are characters that are stronger or weaker, but it's nothing too bad. Now, a perfectly blanced game, where pretty much every match up is a 5-5? Never gonna happen unless every character plays the exact same, and that would be incredibly boring.

[AquaTeamV3]

Solar pretty much hit the nail on the head.  David Sirlin (programmer of SSF2THDR) wrote an article about character balancing, and here's his take on it:

0) God tier (no character should be in this tier, if they are, you are forced to play them to be competitive)
1) Top tier (Being top tier does not necessarily mean any nerfs are needed)
2) Middle tier (pretty good, not quite as good as top)
3) Bottom tier (I can still win with them, but it's hard)
4) Garbage tier (no one should be in this. Not reasonable to play this character at all.)

There are in fact many games where characters all fall between top and bottom tiers.  Just because a character may be weaker doesn't mean that you can't win with them, it's just that you have to put in a LOT of work for your victories.

No because people would complain about how "weak" their cahracter is. >.> if I could do one thing to balance fighting games, it would be to balance out the health in tatsunoko vs capcom and in marvel vs capcom 3. Mostly becAuse Zero needs it.

Nah, Zero's health actually needs to be that low.  His pressure game is so good that it's very hard to get openings to hit him, let alone keep him off of you.  Once you learn those charge shot loops, you can land really damaging combos without having to use meter or anything.  Low health keeps him in check because when you finally manage to hit him you can knock him out with 1-2 good combos.  If Zero had the health of a tank he'd just be outright broken.  TvC's probably the most balanced fighter I've played in a long time, as there's still yet to be an agreed on tier list for that game because everyone can hold their own with enough practice.

The personal most hurt I ever was by an "underpowered" character, would be Bowser in SSB Brawl.  Flying Slam is great, but beyond that he feels woefully underpowered compared to new heavyweights like Ike, Dedede, and Snake.  Damn near every aerial move he has is punished with tremendous lag, and his Final Smash is laughable.  Mario can flip it with his cape, for God's sake.

What's funny is that hackers tend to understand balance better than Nintendo does.  Balanced Brawl, for example, manages to keep the gameplay the same as SSBB while re-tweaking the characters so that they all have a fighting chance.  Some characters still do better than others, but the matchups are closer so you don't have to kill yourself trying to beat MK/Snake/Dedede/etc.  Kind of wish Nintendo would take notes. 

[Wanda Bear]

1-2 combos? Try 1 super from either Doronjo or Tekaman Blade. One super! No one goes down like that. Shut up Karas >.>

[The Drunken Dishwasher]

Solar and what Aquateam quoted is pretty much the truth.

let's take for example, El Fuerte from SF4, he's def high tier but you have to work to get REALLY good w/ him, and reflexes are a MUST to make his mix up game even more effective.  I know this one dude who's the top El Fuerte player of Toronto.  His reflexes at mixing up even the strongest Ryu, Sagat, Rufus players are...well...amazing to look at. ( the Fuerte mainer's name is Dan (not 100% sure of his nickname but his name is Dan).

[AquaTeamV3]

1-2 combos? Try 1 super from either Doronjo or Tekaman Blade. One super! No one goes down like that. Shut up Karas >.>

If you mean a Level 3 Super, then yeah, that can definitely knock him out in one shot.  Though a fully juiced-up Roll can knock him out without even using meter, which is a scary though in it's own right.  However, that's just the kind of payoff you get for playing a character with amazing rushdown capabilities.  Zero's not designed to take hits; he needs to be the aggressor at all times or he's just not doing his job.  That said, TvC's a game where meter management is super important, and having enough for a Mega Crash can keep the momentum in your favor.  Of course, it just so happens that Zero's pretty much the best character in the game for building meter, given that his attacks tend to multi-hit and all that.  Really, he's a lot harder to hit than you'd think.

let's take for example, El Fuerte from SF4, he's def high tier but you have to work to get REALLY good w/ him, and reflexes are a MUST to make his mix up game even more effective.  I know this one dude who's the top El Fuerte player of Toronto.  His reflexes at mixing up even the strongest Ryu, Sagat, Rufus players are...well...amazing to look at. ( the Fuerte mainer's name is Dan (not 100% sure of his nickname but his name is Dan).

I actually did think about El Fuerte when looking through this topic.  Though I've never actually played SF4, he's one of those characters that I'd love to try out. Fuerte's damage output and defense are pretty low, and his execution isn't the easiest either.  With a lot of practice he's capable of doing quite a bit of damage, as like you said, he has an amazing mix up game.  Being able to out-think an opponent goes a long way in being able to win matches, even if you're using a character that's considered low-tier.

[Hypershell]

...matchups are closer so you don't have to kill yourself trying to beat MK/Snake/Dedede/etc.  Kind of wish Nintendo would take notes. 

You know, I *NEVER* was in such a position, and this is why when people talk of "balancing" Brawl, I have a hard time listening to them.  Not only do I find none of those three characters particularly overwhelming, but I myself *ROYALLY* suck as MK and Dedede.  In general my toughest opponents in Brawl are Toon Link and ROB.

"God Tier" in Brawl only exists to people who try to standardize the environment (no items, no hazards, as plain terrain as possible; I've seen engines of destruction on Final Destination get completely ripped apart in Yoshi's Island Melee because they can't fight on a frikkin slope).  IMHO that is not the kind of game that Brawl SHOULD be; but whether you agree with that or not, at the very least one has to admit that the game encompasses much more.  The performance of the game's characters varies drastically based on what style you're playing. 

[Solar]

You know, I *NEVER* was in such a position, and this is why when people talk of "balancing" Brawl, I have a hard time listening to them.  Not only do I find none of those three characters particularly overwhelming, but I myself *ROYALLY* suck as MK and Dedede.  In general my toughest opponents in Brawl are Toon Link and ROB.

No offense Shelly but that's a really bad way to argue this. For example, I may as well say that I find it harder to deal with X middle tier character in MvC2 and that I even suck at using the god tiers, but does that change that they're horribly broken? No.

True, items and stages change things, but they benefit from them as much as everyone else too.

[AquaTeamV3]

You know, I *NEVER* was in such a position, and this is why when people talk of "balancing" Brawl, I have a hard time listening to them.  Not only do I find none of those three characters particularly overwhelming, but I myself *ROYALLY* suck as MK and Dedede.  In general my toughest opponents in Brawl are Toon Link and ROB.

Just because a character's top tier in a fighter doesn't mean that they're easy to pick up.  Magneto's a boss in MvC2 yet his learning curve is extremely high.  When people talk of tiers, they're talking about how that character performs at the highest level of play in the hands of someone who has the character down pat.

"God Tier" in Brawl only exists to people who try to standardize the environment (no items, no hazards, as plain terrain as possible; I've seen engines of destruction on Final Destination get completely ripped apart in Yoshi's Island Melee because they can't fight on a frikkin slope).  IMHO that is not the kind of game that Brawl SHOULD be; but whether you agree with that or not, at the very least one has to admit that the game encompasses much more.  The performance of the game's characters varies drastically based on what style you're playing. 

In terms of stages in the Smash series, I personally don't like the ones that are auto-scroll and such.  I've played the major Brawl hacks, and the one thing they all have in common is that they try to make all of the major stages viable.  This can range from freezing moving/shifting stages like Rainbow Cruise and WarioWare to outright replacing stages like 75m and Rumble falls with some of the more fun SSE stages that you wouldn't normally have access to.  Slopes don't really bother me at all, and th only hazards I don't like are the kind that you can't see coming or are over-intrusive.  You want to keep the game competitive, but that's hard to do when characters are dying due to something that they didn't really have a lot of control over (see: annoying WarioWare minigames and their boosts).

Items are an interesting case.  I'm okay with having certain ones on, but some of them are outright annoying.  I honestly don't even like Smash Balls, if anything else because they seem to pop of so often and inadvertently break the flow of the fight.  That and some Final Smashes are for all intents and purposes, broken.  Landmasters can outright snatch 2 stocks off of you if your opponent knows what they're doing.

Oh, and tripping.  Tripping is just the dumbest thing I've ever experienced in a fighter, ever. 

[Krystal]

Yanno, SSBB was designed to be silly chaotic fun, not a competitive fighter so...>_>a

Though the broken final smashes do suck. Even if they're fun.

[Solar]

Yeah, Super Sonic can go die in a fire >__>

[The Drunken Dishwasher]

I love final smashes, the idea of Nintendo characters having supers pleases me *runs away*.

[Waifu]

Supers? Nintendo? 

Concerning character strength and weakness, how does that factor into balance?

[Protoman Blues]

Oh, and tripping.  Tripping is just the dumbest thing I've ever experienced in a fighter, ever. 

This is really my only complaint about Brawl. Everything else is fine.

[AquaTeamV3]

This is really my only complaint about Brawl. Everything else is fine.

Thing is, even with Brawl's faults I still don't mind playing it with friends or whatever, but tripping even ruins that.  The game outright punishes you for trying to run, which IMO just makes no sense at all.  I've literally seen matches turned over just because someone tripped and was punished for it.  Of course, I have no problem with using Diddy Kong's bananas to repeatedly trip/frustrate someone, simply because it's not only under someone's control, but because it's pretty hilarious in its own right.

[The Drunken Dishwasher]

Supers? Nintendo? 

Concerning character strength and weakness, how does that factor into balance?

*shrugs* just had to say it.