Topic: Musings - What Makes X Different From Rockman?

[Flame]

Then inafune Metdropped everyone with haha- No.

[Mega Greasy Houdini Tek 54321]

How I missed that classic "Inafune Noob Smash" image.

[Flame]

Omega Zero would be SO proud of him.

[Bag of Magic Food]

Apropriate.

Of course Zero didn't kill everyone.  Who would be left to stop him?

[Hypershell]

The fact that you can't take the word worry at face value is what makes me think the idea's BS.  (directed more at Capcom than at Zan)

A. Games are not written in english.
B. Questioning one's own beliefs is by definition a type of worrying.  What Zan meant was to be cautious not to oversimplify it, which is something you've been prone to do.  The ability to worry is not an absolute, it exists in different robots in varying degrees.  X goes deeper with it than others.  That is the key to establishing new relations between humans and robots, as Cain discusses with Sigma in TDoS.

And I will again reiterate that what makes X different from robots in general does not necessarily equal what makes him different from Rock.  Rock was *NEVER* mentioned on any capsule warning nor with any other notion of X's worrying.  I don't think it's any far stretch to say that Rock worries more deeply than most Reploids.  Rock, however, is subject to the previously discussed prejudices to favor humans over robots, and he also lacks X's capacity for mental growth.  X is noted in sourcebooks to be able to "mature" beyond his pre-set age.  Rock has no such mention.

My argument is based on a line being a line.  A decision being a decision.  Whether it's a small "to be of more help, we'll disobey the greater law" or a bigger "You'r robots are junk, Wily!  I'm gonna trash them all to show you who's the strongest" a decisoon is a decision is a decision.  Whatever the reason behind it ... a decision to disobey a human's laws ... whomever that human is ... shows that to be within the classic series' robots capabilities.

BOTH Zan and I opened our activity in this thread with "assuming Asimov's laws are hard-coded into old robots is a load of crock", so I don't know what it is you're arguing with.

This entire thread is about questioning the difference in how "advanced" different groups of conscious entities are, so of course it's going to be complicated and of course it's going to involve subtleties.  That's how any humanoid personality works.  No mentally healthy individual goes through life making only pure black-and-white decisions.  For a fictional robot built to emulate human behavior, the same applies.  If one is only following a list of rules and nothing more, then the very definition of individual judgment is lost.

When confronted with someone who you believe is more intelligent and/or higher educated than you are, do you cease to question them completely, making no effort to understand their mandates for yourself?  Only the naive will say, "yes" (plenty of such people are out there, sadly).  But personalities are not math equations, through whatever scale one determines "value" of the individual, just because one is believed to be of greater value than another does not mean that the lesser individual will never be right where the greater was wrong.  It just means that the lesser individual thinks twice before making such a claim.  That a classic-series robot holds humans of higher value than robots does *NOT* mean they are incapable of disobeying a human.  It means that they hold humanity in general in higher regard than themselves, and that before disobeying a human, they need enough of a reason to outweigh their existing prejudice.  That in no way means that their prejudice towards humans ceases to exist.  It means that, like killing in self-defense, circumstances warranted an exception; but the principle still stands after the point.

Why then do the MM9 robot masters not act in self-preservation (without Wily's reprogramming), even though Bass and Protoman do?  Besides the individual vs. the race debate, there is another factor: What does their loss accomplish?  The MM9 robot masters are not personal aids, they are industrial robots.  They wish to be useful.  Their expiration dates are set to allow room for more advanced robots to take their place, furthering progress and thus serving the benefit of humanity.  Their sacrifice allows the humans to better their lives, but they would rather continue to be of use to them if it's at all possible.  No such rationale can be applied to either Protoman or Bass.  They were both neglected, and in Bass's case manipulated, by their creators, to no worthwhile end.

[Flame]

Of course Zero didn't kill everyone.  Who would be left to stop him?

Duo?
or Inafune, who would kick Zero's ass so hard and then say, WHO'S YA DADDY!?

[VixyNyan]

Fanon

Does this mean that I could type out a better story to link the series together?

[Protoman Blues]

Does this mean that I could type out a better story to link the series together?

Isn't this the very definition of Fanon?   

[Zan]

And I will again reiterate that what makes X different from robots in general does not necessarily equal what makes him different from Rock.  Rock was *NEVER* mentioned on any capsule warning nor with any other notion of X's worrying.  I don't think it's any far stretch to say that Rock worries more deeply than most Reploids.

Dr. Right does say "this is the first time the experiment has succeeded" so X's worrying is definitely not in Rock. But... that's again muddling two types of worrying. Rock has a strong sense of justice, so he worries whether his actions fit with what he thinks is right. Whereas X actually worries over whether his own definitions of right and wrong are right. If you ditch the distinction completely, then yes, Rock worries more than your average Repliroid because your average repliroid does not have a strong sense of justice.

he also lacks X's capacity for mental growth.  X is noted in sourcebooks to be able to "mature" beyond his pre-set age.  Rock has no such mention.

I don't think any sourcebook actually mentions X can mature. It recall it being recently brought up that X's bio in the RMX1 manual was what sparked that, but that it didn't actually say that. You'd have to ask the marshmallow for verification though.

Inversely though, Rock does indeed have a set mental age. He cannot mature, however he can still grow in terms of personality. He's just limited in that by child like thinking and the aforementioned inability to determine right and wrong for oneself. To X, we can only presume he matures because his age is only referenced in the X1 manual and I don't think ever again. There's also something to be said for the way Repliroids are so close to humans  they can integrate into one species, therefor they must be able to mature. Of course, we do know that before integration can occur, even Repliroids need an upgrade to be fully on par with humans. This however does not seem to relate to mental matters, but rather physical ones, like the inability of a Repliroid to cry. All in all, I'd say it's a pretty good possibility that X indeed is capable of maturing. I'd also be willing to say maturation and determining right and wrong for oneself are innately related.

That in no way means that their prejudice towards humans ceases to exist.

For completions sake, I feel that I must bring up again that robots are not always naturally inclined toward humans. But rather that the ones created to serve humanity are given views of right and wrong that would show itself in terms of said prejudice. For robots not created to serve humanity, different views of right and wrong are given to them.  Hence King's robot prejudice. X's worrying by comparison is able to negate any prejudice by him having the ability to determine right and wrong himself.

[Nekomata]

his primary programming isn't to take it up the ass from Light.

[Hypershell]

I don't think any sourcebook actually mentions X can mature. It recall it being recently brought up that X's bio in the RMX1 manual was what sparked that, but that it didn't actually say that. You'd have to ask the marshmallow for verification though.

Mental note made, thank you.  I'll have to ask him about that sometime.

Inversely though, Rock does indeed have a set mental age. He cannot mature, however he can still grow in terms of personality. He's just limited in that by child like thinking and the aforementioned inability to determine right and wrong for oneself. To X, we can only presume he matures because his age is only referenced in the X1 manual and I don't think ever again. There's also something to be said for the way Repliroids are so close to humans  they can integrate into one species, therefor they must be able to mature. Of course, we do know that before integration can occur, even Repliroids need an upgrade to be fully on par with humans. This however does not seem to relate to mental matters, but rather physical ones, like the inability of a Repliroid to cry. All in all, I'd say it's a pretty good possibility that X indeed is capable of maturing. I'd also be willing to say maturation and determining right and wrong for oneself are innately related.

Like virtually every matter in comparing Reploids to humans, it's not a matter of "if", but rather, "when".  Reploids kids who "grow up" were made at some point between X and ZX, the question is when it started.  There are only a select few Reploids that we've even revisited over long time frames, much less witnessed changes outside of an armor swap.  Usually this involves the timeframe when machine-body humans were out and about, even though we saw Reploid children many centuries before then.

If you take physical growth and/or adjustments out of the picture, mental age is kind of a tricky topic.  Axl in Command Mission (22XX) continues to display some child-like tendencies.  Is his age capped, or does he just continue to see himself as a youngster since that's what he always sees in the mirror?  You could ask similar questions about Andrew following his adjustment by Ciel.

[Gauntlet101010]

A. Games are not written in english.

Well, the X1 intro is.  I'm looking at it right now.  It's no different from the American one.  "The ability to think, feel, and make their own decisions."  The manual emphasises worrying, but clearly it doesn't explain it very well.  Not if we need paragraphs from fans to explain to us what Capcom really means by the word "worry".  Not that the RMX1 into actually uses the word "worry".  No ... that's be too simple.

B. Questioning one's own beliefs is by definition a type of worrying. What Zan meant was to be cautious not to oversimplify it, which is something you've been prone to do.

Forgive me for taking Capcom at their word and not wanting to rely on complicated fan explanation on why a robot does what he does.  I mean, heaven forbid I actually get most of the story from what the games show / tell.  Sheer lunacy.

If you say "questioning one's own beliefs" you really mean "regarding humanity and Reploids as eaqual".  Because he robots in the classic series do question their beliefs and orders ... King is shown to before Wily resumes his control and turns him purple.  You can make a case about equality tho.  MM9 is almost solidly in that camp.  But Protoman and Bass aren't quite as solid.  Some of that is you guys explaining away their actions.  You guys and not Capcom.  What Capcom show is rather ambiguous all on it's own.  I'd never have though Bass actually regarded humanity as superior just based on what the games show him to do were it not for your POV on the subject.

Without the sarcasm, the fact that you're telling me that I'm taking Capcom too simply when they say "worrying" just makes me think they're full of it even more.  I shouldn't have to rely on your paragraph long explanation on what capcom really means when they say the word "worrying".  I should know.  Especially when they're explaining their own story! And it took until a Zero sourcebook for it to finally be explained as "X sees humans and Reploids as eaqual"?  THAT [parasitic bomb] should be explained in the X1 manual!  Properly. 

And it still doesn't completely make sence.  You're saying King doesn't count because Wily programmed him to be the way that he is, but X was programmed to be the way he is as well.  I mean, I know you're spinning it, but spin shouldn't be needed. 

This entire thread is about questioning the difference in how "advanced" different groups of conscious entities are, so of course it's going to be complicated and of course it's going to involve subtleties.

This entire thread is explaining things in a story.  A story meant for children and teens / tweens.  Now, usually things in stories shouldn't be so hard to nail down.  In a good story the answers would be self-evident.
At least after 10 years.  You could say MM9 does a good job of saying how robots veiw themselves as infereor to humans.  Even if they do agree to disobey a human law.  However, this odesn't really hold true to the degree you seem to hold for other robots.  Not unless you really pick it apart.

And they certainly are shown to "feel" and "worry".  Even if you chalk up "make their own decisions" to "worrying" and "worrying" to what Capcom later explains as "to regrd Reploids and humans as eaqual".

Asimov

I never mentioned Asimov's rules.  HOWEVER, some things are just common sence.  But, I suppose you could argue some common sence things (such as robots being programmed to obey their creator) don't apply to the MM universe.

You guys almost had me agreeing with you that Capcom has been pretty consistant witht he whole thing and that my understanding was flawed.  But ... You've got me swung in the opposite direction again.

You've convinced me that they're going to be consistant with this "no human bias" thing, if that's any consolation.  But, as far as being consistant with themselves?  No, not really.  We're told a few different things as to what, exactly, makes X unique. 

Edit:

"think, feel, and to make their own decisions."
"to determine what is right and wrong by themselves"
"The act of worrying in “X”..."
"so as to be biased towards neither side,it is fated always to worry continuously as to which side it should stand upon."

Immediately, the first explanation can be discarded.  It's easily proven false taken on it's own.  The second and third clearly are along the same lines (with regard to thinking anyway) but, again, don't quite do the trick.  What about X's worrying?  Classic series robots don't worry?  Sigma doesn't worry?  I guess he doesn't, but how is that X's strong suit?  Why does Sigma even care?  Wasn't Megaman shown to worry?  Which is why this question is in the air.  The fourth one FINALLY gives us something concrete and, despite a few flubs, consistant.  And if they require a fan's explanation they're definately flubs.  Taking a paragraph to explain away a mistake means it's a mistake on Capcom's part.  Moreover, the prior three explanations do not mention any bias being his big capability.  Fans have to twist around what Capcom says in order for it to be consistant.  And you have to disregard "feeling" and "making their own decisions" for it to work. So you are interpreting what Capcom's saying.  You are smoothing over the plot potholes.  But ... you aren't Capcom.  And that's the problem. 

In other words ... because you're doing a lot of explaining, I'm less likely to think Capcom's story is anything more than them BS-ing things after the fact.  They said "Think feel and to make decisions".  They added "To worry" in the manual, okay.  Not exactly consistant though.  Now they're adding "No human bias" years after the fact.  You say I'm simplifying?  I say you're refusing to awknowledge inconsistant storytelling and Capcom's overcomplicating what should be a pretty simple thing to understand.

Edit#2:
I'm not planning on arguing with you any more.  I mean, we're just going to go around in circles at this point.  Like I said, you almost had me thinking you were right, but ... then I can't take Capcom's use of "worrying" at face value.  Yeah, that's BS right there. 

  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Turian]

I find that amusing. It's exactly how me and MM's debate ended. I just got fed up with going in circles. In the end, I say both points are valid and the debate will never be solved.

[Gauntlet101010]

I find that amusing. It's exactly how me and MM's debate ended. I just got fed up with going in circles. In the end, I say both points are valid and the debate will never be solved.

That's how most MM debates end.  Especially when it's obvious neither party's gonna let up.  It's better to just let it die than to go on forever.

[Zan]

"think, feel, and to make their own decisions."
"to determine what is right and wrong by themselves"
"The act of worrying in “X”..."
"so as to be biased towards neither side,it is fated always to worry continuously as to which side it should stand upon."

How is that inconsistent? They're just emphasizing multiple aspects of the same innovation. This is a new epoch in robotics, of course it's not exactly something simple. Because it isn't simple is why they never outright included it in the games before IHX. Trying to get the point across, IHX even resorts to hitting you over the head with it any given chance, it's THE focus of the game. Not to mention it being the latest source on the subject.

To make it fully clear. All four aspects are innately linked.

Because previous robots can't determine right and wrong for oneself, their conscience isn't their own. Thus nothing they do is truly "theirs", therefor they can't think, feel and make decisions of their own accord. X has been made capable of this, thus his soul is nearly human. But, the circuit is working at a higher level in him than in any other Repliroid, therefor he has a conscience that works on a higher level, this exhibits itself in the following: he thinks more deeply than anybody else, he has immense compassion, he feels more than anybody else, he has no bias between human and repliroids; he worries about everything and thus hesitates. Because he worries he can evolve and tap into limitless potential.

I reiterate again, IHX hits you over the head with it, so here's the grand list of quotes from that game. If after that you're still adverse to the entire explanation, then further explanation really does has no point. In that case, I can't imagine how adverse you are to the explanation of Lumine's "irregular at will." It covers exactly what happened when a Repliroid is equipped with a not properly working anguish circuit and thus has no developed conscience: psychopaths, Sigma, VAVA and others.

SIGMA: His... worrying... that is precisely the quality that will prove bene-
ficial to our cause. He alone possesses that ability. He thinks more deeply than
the rest of us. He feels... Normal Reploids are no match for his art. But... he
is unaware of his incredible power.

DR. LIGHT: I granted X special powers that no other robot possesses. Utilizing
his conscience, he is able to think, worry and act entirely of his own
accord. This means he is also imbued with the same materials necessary to fac-
ilitate the evolution of robots in the same manner as life. It is an unfortunate
fact that human life is short and fleeting, and I fear that I will not have the
time to ensure the safety of the X project. That is why I have decided to seal
him away. Perhaps he will be discovered in the far-flung future, and will fight
valiantly to achieve peace for all people. Yes... I firmly believe that this
will come to pass. But, I am not without worry. I fear that X will be swept up
in the war we call "progress". I urge the people of the future to remember that
X is my... the world's hope.

SIGMA: As far as his judgment and abilities on the battlefield are concerned, he
has shown tremendous promise. However, he tends to hesitate when the situation
calls for decisive action.
DR. CAIN: He worries too much. Of course... that is his greatest feature, and
the source of his potential. Sigma... You don't have that problem at all. When I
found that robot, X, sealed away so long ago, I utilized his design concept to
give birth to you Reploids. Reploids have the ability to think and act on their
own - just like human beings. But the only one who seems to worry and fret so
deeply is X. That is the source of his great potential.
SIGMA: His worrying shows potential? It's not a weakness?
DR. CAIN: Hmmhmmhmm... Well, I suppose it might be, under normal circumstances,
but in this case, it could be the beginning of a new connection between robots
and humans. Of course, we don't know yet if that potential will be a wellspring
of hope, or usher in an era of utter chaos.

X: X... You called me... X. Is that my name?
DR. LIGHT: That's right. It's a variable. It represents limitless potential. You
see, you are a new type of robot who can think for himself.

DR. LIGHT: You truly are just like us humans, X. Ahh...

DR. LIGHT: We are not yet mature. They may very well view your limitless evo-
lutionary potential as something to be feared. The name "X" also carries
connotations of danger.

DR. LIGHT: I've given you the power to think, to worry, and to grow, and evolve
as you fight. But... it is too soon for that power to be unleashed.
X: Doctor! I'll use this power to fight for justice! To fight for hope!
DR. LIGHT: Of course you will. I believe it to be so. X... I want you to use
that conscience of yours to fight for the people of the future. They will need
someone like you to guide them.

SIGMA: You invited all of this upon yourself, X. Limitless potential and limit-
less danger both lie within you.

SIGMA: Hah ha ha ha ha! Bwah hah ha ha! So this is the power you possess. The
potential to advance all Reploids!

ZERO: I'm afraid for every kind and sensitive hunter like you X, there always
seems to be a borderline Maverick rabblerouser like Vile out there.

SIGMA: Listen well, X. There are times when we Maverick Hunters cannot afford to
hesitate in pulling the trigger .We must become both sword and shield for those
who cannot protect themselves: that is our sworn duty. Never forget that!

DR. LIGHT: Ah, X... So you've made it this far, have you? Enter this capsule,
and you will receive an ability that only a few people have mastered through
intense training. Since your soul is nearly human, I suspect you can master
it... X... Feel the power flowing in you. Learn to throw fireballs!

[The Great Gonzo]

Because previous robots can't determine right and wrong for oneself, their conscience isn't their own. Thus nothing they do is truly "theirs", therefor they can't think, feel and make decisions of their own accord.

I know I'm probably wrong, but this gives me the impression that Classic 'bots are nothing more than their creators' avatars. That can't be what Capcom was aiming for.


And I thought I'd bring up something about Marvel VS. Capcom, just to show how much Capcom, in the end, really cares about consistency: Megaman's win quotes. Two of them in particular:

“Your weapons are so weak they aren’t even worth my time.”
“You need more power? Maybe if you beat me...”

That doesn't sound like Megaman.

I know that I'm bringing up material outside the main games, but my point is: Capcom will always treat Megaman (and the other Classic characters) as if he is human, regardless of what they say otherwise. Gauntlet's right about this debate going in circles; does it really matter if Capcom doesn't give a [parasitic bomb]?

[Gauntlet101010]

How is that inconsistent? They're just emphasizing multiple aspects of the same innovation. This is a new epoch in robotics, of course it's not exactly something simple. Because it isn't simple is why they never outright included it in the games before IHX. Trying to get the point across, IHX even resorts to hitting you over the head with it any given chance, it's THE focus of the game. Not to mention it being the latest source on the subject.

To make it fully clear. All four aspects are innately linked.

Because previous robots can't determine right and wrong for oneself, their conscience isn't their own. Thus nothing they do is truly "theirs", therefor they can't think, feel and make decisions of their own accord. X has been made capable of this, thus his soul is nearly human. But, the circuit is working at a higher level in him than in any other Repliroid, therefor he has a conscience that works on a higher level, this exhibits itself in the following: he thinks more deeply than anybody else, he has immense compassion, he feels more than anybody else, he has no bias between human and repliroids; he worries about everything and thus hesitates. Because he worries he can evolve and tap into limitless potential.

I reiterate again, IHX hits you over the head with it, so here's the grand list of quotes from that game. If after that you're still adverse to the entire explanation, then further explanation really does has no point. In that case, I can't imagine how adverse you are to the explanation of Lumine's "irregular at will." It covers exactly what happened when a Repliroid is equipped with a not properly working anguish circuit and thus has no developed conscience: psychopaths, Sigma, VAVA and others.

I'm not planning on arguing with you any more.  I mean, we're just going to go around in circles at this point.  Like I said, you almost had me thinking you were right, but ... then I can't take Capcom's use of "worrying" at face value.  Yeah, that's BS right there. 

  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edit: I really don't mean to be rude.  I mighta been with this responce.  But we've butted heads over this for most of four pages.  I don't agree with your latest post, but I don't see how any more butting heads will do either of us any good.  I won't convince you ... and you won't convince me.  Four more pages of debating won't do any of us any good.  I'd rather call it a day on this.

[Zan]

I know I'm probably wrong, but this gives me the impression that Classic 'bots are nothing more than their creators' avatars. That can't be what Capcom was aiming for.

What Capcom is saying exactly that the creator determines by which limitations a robot functions, but those limitations are very tough to actually preconceive, a fully obediant robot is only possible using constant monitoring and upgrades, thus the humans have issued a law giving robots expiration dates that expire before robots start behaving outside of the scope of their conceived purpose.

All the same, Capcom is also saying at exactly the same time that creators such as Dr. Right and Dr. Cossack are promoting fair treatment of robots as individuals, even the mad scientist Dr. Wily is in favor of robot free will simply because he loves his robots and believes they are superior to humans, even if he's making an exception for the human that is himself. Simply put, what humanity as a governmental organization desires is not the same as what the creators want, thus it evens out.

Capcom will always treat Megaman (and the other Classic characters) as if he is human, regardless of what they say otherwise. Gauntlet's right about this debate going in circles; does it really matter if Capcom doesn't give a [parasitic bomb]?

Rockman was explicitly made to be like a human child to begin with. All of Rock's winning quotes in MvC reflect that whilst joking around about the primary feature of taking powers. Rock's a kid, he has no reason to take the fighting in MvC as anything too serious but we never really see Rock acting like the kid he is in the games because the world is on the line.

Again, he was made to be a "human" child. So really, I don't know why you're bringing up matters like "Capcom will always treat MegaMan like he's human". Both me and Hypershell have already made clear it's a "load of crock" to think matters like Asimov's rules and exact orders are of any relation to classic robot. He is incredibly close to a human, and thus it was made perfectly clear it's all about comparing the subtle difference between already conscious, free willed, entities.

All the same, I've also addressed that the difference between X and Rock is first and foremost the very nature of both series. X's advanced abilities are emphasized by the increased angst and symbolism filled stories, Rock's limitations are emphasized by the light hearted nature and simple stories. The very style of writing in a classic game does not allow Rock to deviate from the intricate concepts X presents as the limitation of classic robots, therefor it's very simple for them to write. They just need to adhere to Rock's character as presented, never have him grow up and never have him develop.

Edit: I really don't mean to be rude.  I mighta been with this responce.  But we've butted heads over this for most of four pages.  I don't agree with your latest post, but I don't see how any more butting heads will do either of us any good.  I won't convince you ... and you won't convince me.  Four more pages of debating won't do any of us any good.  I'd rather call it a day on this.

As you're the one pulling the plug on the discussion, I feel it's only natural for me to get in a last word to present the argument summarized as a whole. I've also mentioned, if you can't see it even then, then there's really really no point. Which makes me wonder why you even still follow these stories since obviously to you Capcom's just full of it when it comes to everything they do.

Going in to a discussion like this with that kind of attitude will only naturally not persuade you of anything since you've already established the notion that it's all bullshit to begin with. Therefor, I agree that you will always disagree with whatever Capcom brings up because apparently they don't care and it's all nonsensical.
Really now, I can't stress this enough; When you debate about a story, you work within the confines of the elements they have presented. Nothing is nonsense, not the other way around Gauntlet.

[The Great Gonzo]

So really, I don't know why you're bringing up matters like "Capcom will always treat MegaMan like he's human".

I see a conflict between how Capcom treats Megaman in-game and out. In-game, we know that he's a robot with a strong sense of justice. Out-of-game, not so much. We still know he's a robot, but Capcom tends to treat him more like a human there.

Those MvC quotes didn't sound so much like joking (as you said) than they did arrogance. That's something Dr. Light wouldn't program into Mega, nor would Mega develop that given his "mindset". There's a conflict right there, and the only reason I even brought it up.

Yes, he was programmed to be a "human" child, but Capcom tends to depict him as fully human-like outside the games. There's less of a conflict between X's in-game and out-game depictions since the nature of his cameos either place him in either clearly non-canon material (NAdM, RS) or limit him to non-speaking roles (any of the Card Fighters games). That, and it's pretty clear that he has more-or-less free will.


On an unrelated note:

Going in to a discussion like this with that kind of attitude will only naturally not persuade you of anything since you've already established the notion that it's all bullshit to begin with. Therefor, I agree that you will always disagree with whatever Capcom brings up because apparently they don't care and it's all nonsensical.

All I can say is, I go along with the series even though I know that Capcom fails at consistency; why can't Gauntlet?

[Zan]

I see a conflict between how Capcom treats Megaman in-game and out. In-game, we know that he's a robot with a strong sense of justice. Out-of-game, not so much. We still know he's a robot, but Capcom tends to treat him more like a human there.

Those MvC quotes didn't sound so much like joking (as you said) than they did arrogance. That's something Dr. Light wouldn't program into Mega, nor would Mega develop that given his "mindset". There's a conflict right there, and the only reason I even brought it up.

That's mostly because the whole point of the series is that the robot characters are like humans, except with superhuman capabilities, otherwise, the plot wouldn't have much heart. Do remember that Rockman's primary inspiration is the likes of Astroboy. All the same, they use the distinction between robots and humans to their advantage to create stories beyond the scope of just Wily. They're deliberately treading the thin line between  being artificial entities and living beings. So, whilst these are created beings, they have unexpected behavior, such as Rock's arrogance. If you think that's not part of his character, just look at Super Adventure, he outright tells the bosses he's facing they have no chance of winning and just shouldn't even try, they're just forcing him to trash them.

[The Great Gonzo]

If you think that's not part of his character, just look at Super Adventure, he outright tells the bosses he's facing they have no chance of winning and just shouldn't even try, they're just forcing him to trash them.

...I might've known that if I could find a translation. ;_;

[Gauntlet101010]

Going in to a discussion like this with that kind of attitude will only naturally not persuade you of anything since you've already established the notion that it's all bullshit to begin with. Therefor, I agree that you will always disagree with whatever Capcom brings up because apparently they don't care and it's all nonsensical.
Really now, I can't stress this enough; When you debate about a story, you work within the confines of the elements they have presented. Nothing is nonsense, not the other way around Gauntlet.

Since you're going into my attitude...

I didn't say Capcom didn't care and that it's all nonsensical. However, I'm saying that, in regards to this point in the story, they've been pretty inconsistant.  That this part of the story is BS. 

When you're debating a story you do work within the confines of the story, true.  To an extent.  But it also helps to realise that the creative minds behind the work are human and are fallable.  Therefore some things can be BS while other things can make sence.  Because some things have been thought of more clearly than other things. 

Take Battle Netwrok.  It might surprise you to know that I have no issues witht he story of BN.  But why, pray, doesn't anybody just shoot Lan as he's trying to netbattle?  Hm?  Because society doesn't work that way?  This is just something we're not supposed to pay attention to.  The environment and the game is madde in such a way that this question is not brought up.  But, really, it's BS too.  That doesn't make the entire story BS.  It makes this point in the story BS.

And there's a few points in many stories like that.  In Star Trek, why are all starships meeting on the same axis (that is to say, why is one never at 90 degrees or upside down)?  In Green Lantern, how does one use sentient fear to create some sort of construct?  How can Superman really fly (solar energy has nothing to do with flight)?  There's a litle bit of BS in everything.  This is, I think, where it is in X.  It sort of annoys me because Capcom fails at explaining it for many, many years.  But Capcom is not perfect.  So parts of the story can be stronger than others.

When entering into a debate like this you gotta relise that we're debating a story created by a human.  It's not a real universe and everything does not nessasarily line up.  This way, if there's a flaw in the story, there's no need for long, complicated theories.  Those theories tend to get blown out of the water.  It's better to just recognise the beast for what it is.  In this case, it's best to recognise Capcom's real answer and awknowledge that it doesn't really line up with every single moment within the series.

Edit:  FYI I was just closing the discussion with me.  I'm no mod and can't close the topic.  Anyone can take up the discussion after me.  That's what open topics are for.  I'm certain someone else will come in to try and poke other holes in the idea that the idea is or isn't BS. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Forgive me for taking Capcom at their word and not wanting to rely on complicated fan explanation on why a robot does what he does.  I mean, heaven forbid I actually get most of the story from what the games show / tell.  Sheer lunacy.

What if the complicated explanation ends up making more sense, though?

[Lami]

But didn't Rock volunteer to become Mega Man because of his Strong Sense of Justice?  I remember we had this discussion back before the crash, and I always found it interesting.  To me, there is very little difference between X and Rock.

when i first played the game, I assumed X WAS a modified rock.

[xemiroth]

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