MEGAMAN UNIVERSE!!!!!! (PS3/360)

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #250 on: July 21, 2010, 12:47:25 AM
But is still referenced partially within their character profiles...
Given the nature of conceptual information as I've outlined above, that proves nothing.  The ZC timeline is an exceedingly valuable source of insight, but I'm not willing to accept it as irrefutable without cross-reference.  The character profiles provide said cross-reference on their respective points, that is all.

Example: Zero's creation 1XX years ago.  We ALL had a field day with that one.

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Just X6...
Yes, I remember that debate vividly.  Still, it's a start.

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The original doesn't either; but it at least mentions its existence in Repliroids. Which is somehow related to the point of calling Zero an evil Repliroid within the same text.
That's speculation.  Reploids are derivative works from X whereas Zero is not.  It could just be bad spacing.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #251 on: July 21, 2010, 12:49:32 AM
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That's speculation.  Reploids are derivative works from X whereas Zero is not.  It could just be bad spacing.

You say that as if there's any point to including the suffering circuit mention unless it somehow relates to Zero and Omega. Keeping in mind the point of Three Keys.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #252 on: July 21, 2010, 12:52:59 AM
The virus relates to Zero.  The suffering circuit relates to the virus.  That the connection is there cannot be denied, I merely called to question whether it is direct or indirect.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #253 on: July 21, 2010, 12:55:05 AM
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The virus relates to Zero.  The suffering circuit relates to the virus.  That the connection is there cannot be denied, I merely called to question whether it is direct or indirect.

Hence, there's 'somehow' a relation, which is easily lost by word twisting the likes of which Udon did. Who knows what that relation is. In the case of the removed mention of Repliroids; just as it is important to not create selectivity when there is ambiguity, it is also important not to create ambiguity when there's selectivity.

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Example: Zero's creation 1XX years ago.  We ALL had a field day with that one.

But do we have anything else aside from the 1XX label to call into question? The timeline cross-referenced itself on many occasions, and is on many cases cross-referenced in the character profiles. I think it pretty much comes down to just that 1XX label being the only thing with cross-reference.

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Aizu's own words directly state that Dark Elf's origins, more specifically the functions of her transformation to Dark Elf as stated in Three Keys, are invalid. 

He does not. The account by Aizu does not wholly match with Three Keys; we cannot confirm they are the same.



Offline Flame

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Reply #254 on: July 21, 2010, 12:56:50 AM
Im just glad that the biggest X series mystery, (that being the X4 flashback, how Sigma got the virus and Zero malfunctioned) was finally laid to rest.

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http://I get the impression they either directly swiped Marshmallow's RTRZ translations for their big four profiles, or went to MegaMan Network.
nothing new for Capcom. They seem to do stuff like that all the time.

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Just X6... And you know how gaming sites are. Or even gaming magazines for that matter. Aarf!
and fans being quick to label games they didnt like as "not canon"

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #255 on: July 21, 2010, 01:01:01 AM
Hence, there's 'somehow' a relation, which is easily lost by word twisting the likes of which Udon did. Who knows what that relation is. In the case of the removed mention of Repliroids; just as it is important to not create selectivity when there is ambiguity, it is also important not to create ambiguity when there's selectivity.
There IS ambiguity.  Period.  The Three Keys' disclaimer places the entire thing in ambiguity.  Selectivity only exists in what can be confirmed through another source.  The Three Keys is not fact, it is insight.

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But do we have anything else aside from the 1XX label to call into question?
I recall a great deal of confusion as to the nature of Sigma's infection.

Also some juicy new details as to Project Elpizo, and X's reaction thereof.  I LOVE IT, mind you, and would die to hear more, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change.  Especially if for reasons unknown to us CoJ is trying to unsee it.  They took it down, we don't know why.  That's the textbook definition of a "grain of salt" situation.

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The timeline cross-referenced itself on many occasions
Irrelevant.  Cross-referencing only establishes validity when it involves two different sources.  If you CANNOT cross-reference within the same source, you have a very shitty source.

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He does not. The account by Aizu does not wholly match with Three Keys; we cannot confirm they are the same.
I provided quotes that parallel the exact same information.  Aizu is not going to restate the whole section, so of course it doesn't "wholly match".  What in his statement DOESN'T match?

Three points parallel across both quotes:

-Mother Elf created from Sigma Virus
-Negative properties of Sigma Virus transfer to Mother Elf
-Negative properties of Sigma Virus create Dark Elf

The latter two are not cross-referenced by any other source, and both accounts of them neglect to mention Weil.  Both accounts are stated to be conceptual information, one possibly not canon, one definitely altered in some unspecified way.  How is that not a match?

Aizu's only information not present in Three Keys is Mother Elf having the ability to control Reploids; which we already know by game events that Dark Elf does.  Further, it is no small stretch for one who by each and every account was born to alter Reploid behavior, regardless of to what end.

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Offline Legendary

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Reply #256 on: July 21, 2010, 01:01:48 AM
This thread grew kinda quickly...o.o

I really do hope Ryu ends up being playable in some way, shape, or form...Teasel too, but that'd be a bit much.



Offline Flame

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Reply #257 on: July 21, 2010, 01:02:21 AM
well, he does say "everyone's megaman"..
So I wouldnt be surprised if various different Megamen are playable.

Teasel though... maybe not. Trigger, possibly.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #258 on: July 21, 2010, 01:22:41 AM
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I recall a great deal of confusion as to the nature of Sigma's infection.

I grant you that, but only in the matter of something 'more' happening than what the timeline describes, as shown in X4 and implicated by both Sigma and Inafune. Not something that's in conflict with Sigma's described infection; simply an omission, like the text has many similar omissions.

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Also some juicy new details as to Project Elpizo, never previously mentioned in any source.  And I LOVE IT, mind you, and would die to hear more, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to change.  Especially if for reasons unknown to us CoJ is trying to unsee it.

Project Elpis details were recited in character profiles. If I recall correctly, Elpis' and maybe Omega's too. Noting that Project Elpis is the use of Dark Elf with Omega to control all Repliroids.

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Irrelevant.  Cross-referencing only establishes validity when it involves two different sources.  If you CANNOT cross-reference within the same source, you have a very shitty source.

X5 as a game is a shitty source on the virus awakening Zero because nothing else cross-references that subject?

Thing is, the Zero collection timeline is not a small thing, it is several entries which tell a complete story from start to finish. Within that story, a lot of matters are recited, and many points which are cross-referenced in the character profiles simply depend on the whole. The cross-referenced points such as Zero sealing himself as a result of the Nightmare Incident, X's perfect virus countermeasures, Zero turning good and Project Elpis simply cannot entirely stand alone.

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I provided quotes that parallel the exact same information.  Aizu is not going to restate the whole section, so of course it doesn't "wholly match".  What in his statement DOESN'T match?

In the interview it is said that Mother Elf was created as a Cyber-elf with the ability to control Reploids. Being made from the Sigma Virus, with some of the negative properties of the Sigma Virus transferred during the process, she became Dark Elf.

Aizu said several details changed; not specifying which.

Three Keys simply states an aspect of Sigma Virus in her creation, and that overwhelming her.

We know Mother Elf is NOT created to be Cyber-elf with the ability to control Reploids (though Dark Elf) is; Mother elf was creation as an anti-virus. Furthermore, though not necessarily, the text seemingly implicates the corruption to Dark Elf as upon birth, which we also know is not true.

Neither of these untrue details are mentioned in Tree Keys. The only correlation is the matter of Sigma Virus as part of her creation, and that aspect being related to her change of Dark Elf. However, as we already have some changed details spotted in Aizu's words; we cannot conclude whether all of it is was changed, or just the aforementioned details.

As such, with Dr. Vile's "curse" in mind, nothing exists to confirm or deny the nature of that being what Three Keys and Aizu explained.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #259 on: July 21, 2010, 01:35:40 AM
X5 as a game
Keyword: Game.  Produced and released by Capcom.  It can be retconned, but cannot be taken back.  An out-of-game source which was released and then pulled is valuable by every sense of the word, but is not on its own an absolute.  Not without knowing why it was pulled, and we can only guess.  It may be a conceptual link they're not willing to commit to.  Or it may be final and they just wanted to save it for their next book.  We don't know either way.

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Thing is, the Zero collection timeline is not a small thing, it is several entries which tell a complete story from start to finish. Within that story, a lot of matters are recited, and many points which are cross-referenced in the character profiles simply depend on the whole. The cross-referenced points such as Zero sealing himself as a result of the Nightmare Incident, X's perfect virus countermeasures, Zero turning good and Project Elpis simply cannot entirely stand alone.
I disagree.  X having a perfect virus countermeasure is in no way related to the Nightmare or to Project Elpizo.  Neither are the latter two related to each other.  They each relate to those points which are previously established, which is fine and dandy, except that those previously established points DID stand alone.  Filling in more material is always welcome, but that they can be filled in one way does not mean that they can be filled in only that way.

In fact that virus countermeasure speaks against it.  In linking the whole thing to the "virus from space", presumably Roboenza, it says that these points are being newly expanded.  Whether that connection was given the final stamp of approval or is still subject to change is unclear.

Zero Collection timeline being "small" or not is irrelevant.  Concept is not "small".  The whole of concept is not completely invalidated based on one or two points changing.  That's why we call it insight.

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We know Mother Elf is NOT created to be Cyber-elf with the ability to control Reploids (though Dark Elf) is; Mother elf was creation as an anti-virus.
As I said in my last post: "...it is no small stretch for one who by each and every account was born to alter Reploid behavior, regardless of to what end."

An anti-virus may kill the virus but that doesn't mean it'll undo what damage was done.  See where I'm going with that?  The ability to alter Reploid programming on such a deep level surely carries the potential of more than one application; there is nothing that says the transformation of Mother Elf to Dark Elf is not simply a matter of intent rather than ability.  Aizu is discussing ability, not purpose, there is a difference.  Furthermore, Project Elpizo as an official backing of a "controller" leaves the implication that Weil wasn't the only one to see that potential use in Mother Elf.

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Furthermore, though not necessarily, the text seemingly implicates the corruption to Dark Elf as upon birth, which we also know is not true.
Speculation.  By saying "not necessarily", you render your own point moot.  You cannot discredit information simply because your own optional interpretation doesn't fit.

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Neither of these untrue details are mentioned in Tree Keys.
One may well be true in canon, as I've outlined above.  The other is not "mentioned", it is your own personal interpretation of context.  Invalid.  Aizu did not state that Dark Elf was created at birth, he simply did not specify that she wasn't.  And nothing, save you, says that she was.  That is not a valid argument.  I can tell you that "early concept" strongly correlates to "originally" (which it does), but that alone proves nothing.



We're going off on a tangent, though.  Because regardless of Aizu's words, that the Three Keys disclaimer exists cannot be denied, and as such, information from the Three Keys cannot stand as fact without support from another source.

"The information that follows comes from the early concept phases for the Zero series' scenario, and therefore may not be canonical."

When was that statement ever retracted?  It wasn't.  You argue against that, you argue against fact.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #260 on: July 21, 2010, 01:44:06 AM
...

*sets up stand*

-ZAN vs HYPERSHELL-

watch it now, live! only $2 per entry!

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #261 on: July 21, 2010, 02:02:01 AM
Damn, I'm broke. XD;



Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #262 on: July 21, 2010, 03:25:14 AM
Let's hope it means that it evolves along the necessary terms, while keeping to its roots. Meaning that any who are new to the franchise might start playing it without a problem.

If Inafune is completely in charge, expect evolution along the lines of no charge, and no slide. His big thing about Megaman is simple gameplay, thus we got Megaman 9.


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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #263 on: July 21, 2010, 03:32:41 AM
If Inafune is completely in charge, expect evolution along the lines of no charge, and no slide. His big thing about Megaman is simple gameplay, thus we got Megaman 9.
We got Megaman 9 due to him wanting to make a new classic Megaman game to fit the original series as best as he could. And he followed the mold of MM2, questionably the best of the series. This is a whole new game, for new players such as fans. We should expect simple gameplay, but a different basis.



Offline Flame

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Reply #264 on: July 21, 2010, 03:35:01 AM
What they need to do, is stop trying to suck up to Megaman 2, and just try something new already. why the hell havent we gotten a 3D Classic Megaman yet? and by 3D I MEAN full 3D. We went from 1-6's style, to 7's style, then to 8's style. the next logical step would be to try a 3D Megaman. or at least a NEW 2.5D megaman. (I dont mean a remake, I mean a new game.)

A retro game was fine for classic's return.(9) 10 was questionable, and the "retro factor" is wearing thin by now. (as is the ugly box art joke by now) more 8 bit games now would just feel like stale Megaman 2 wannabees.

Oh crap. here I go again with the 8 bit vs "evolution" thing...

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Dexter Dexter

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Reply #265 on: July 21, 2010, 04:05:47 AM
This is supposedly a make-your-own Mega Man game, right? If so, then I have plans to make a GB-ized Mega Man game. It will be DELICIOUS. bVd As for the rest of you, sorry if I interrupted your discussion.

SAMPLE TEXT


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #266 on: July 21, 2010, 05:01:18 AM
What they need to do, is stop trying to suck up to Megaman 2, and just try something new already. why the hell havent we gotten a 3D Classic Megaman yet? and by 3D I MEAN full 3D. We went from 1-6's style, to 7's style, then to 8's style. the next logical step would be to try a 3D Megaman. or at least a NEW 2.5D megaman. (I dont mean a remake, I mean a new game.)

A retro game was fine for classic's return.(9) 10 was questionable, and the "retro factor" is wearing thin by now. (as is the ugly box art joke by now) more 8 bit games now would just feel like stale Megaman 2 wannabees.

Oh crap. here I go again with the 8 bit vs "evolution" thing...
An actual 3D Megaman, with a good mix of platforming and shooting elements, is something the franchise definetly needs. Specially since 3D platforming is such a great genre nowadays, but has very few games in the first place.



Offline Flame

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Reply #267 on: July 21, 2010, 05:36:25 AM
An actual 3D Megaman, with a good mix of platforming and shooting elements, is something the franchise definetly needs. Specially since 3D platforming is such a great genre nowadays, but has very few games in the first place.
Ive always used the X-Buster quake mod as an example, and ill use it again.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/x-buster/images/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-wsiyf-5jY

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #268 on: July 21, 2010, 06:30:10 AM
Ive always used the X-Buster quake mod as an example, and ill use it again.
http://www.moddb.com/mods/x-buster/images/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-wsiyf-5jY

That looks REALLY good. Seriously, why not a Megaman game like that? It'd be fun to have, and imagine the detail the futuristic levels could have overall.



Offline Flame

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Reply #269 on: July 21, 2010, 06:34:08 AM
not just that, imagine the overall complexity they CAN have. multiple floors and pathways, with powerups and stuff on them. Yknow, give the impression of an ACTUAL futuristic building or something. to get that one capsule you see up on a ledge, you would have to find a way to get up there.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #270 on: July 21, 2010, 08:42:00 AM
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I disagree.  X having a perfect virus countermeasure is in no way related to the Nightmare or to Project Elpizo.  Neither are the latter two related to each other.

I think you're missing the point in that these four separate matters are cross-referenced by other sources, and from there, feel in the gaps between themselves. It's simply how these matters require the rest of the text as build-up or explanation, which validates a large majority, of not all of it.

X's perfect virus countermeasures validates X's creation paragraph, whereas Zero's turning good and Omega's imperfect virus countermeasures effectively validates the entire section from Zero's creation to his turning good, albeit not every detail, it doesn't make sense without the added explanation. From there, we have several paragraphs which are indisputably true, then the Nightmare Incident which is once again cross-referenced in X's profile, some more indisputable paragraphs, and eventually Project Elpis being cross-referenced by TK-31's profile.

The only potentially questionable aspect that remains lies with some of the details; but those are details repeated over and over again, to the point the entire narrative demands on it.

All in all, I'd say only the 1XX years ago is truly in question; having no context to explain the discrepancy.

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As I said in my last post...
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Speculation.  By saying "not necessarily", you render your own point moot.  You cannot discredit information simply because your own optional interpretation doesn't fit.

That I'm speculating is exactly the point; just as you are. Because, there are several details mentioned by Aizu not in Three Keys. Yes, several details ended up changing, but we simply do not know that it were the same points as in Three Keys which were changed later on. Aizu's interview and Three Keys together do not confirm or deny these being the same concept, or them being different parts of Dark Elf's concept phase. Concept is not a static thing; it evolves over time. Someone like Dr. Vile who had many different concepts should highlight that.

Like you yourself said:
"You cannot discredit information simply because your own optional interpretation doesn't fit."

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We're going off on a tangent, though.  Because regardless of Aizu's words, that the Three Keys disclaimer exists cannot be denied, and as such, information from the Three Keys cannot stand as fact without support from another source.

Though the disclaimer exists, but there's nothing at current that outright denies any aspect of Three Keys; Inti saying it "may not" be canon does not exclude it from being all canon, just as much as certain key points may eventually turn out to be false, they may also turn out to be true. Which is why I objected to relating Dark Elf's Three Key concept to Aizu's words.

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What they need to do, is stop trying to suck up to Megaman 2, and just try something new already.

In my opinion, sucking up to Rockman2 AND Rockman WAS trying something new. Remember that "retro" was once new in a world which was all high definition and 3D. Likewise, with the introduction of slide and charge as early as the third and fourth games, the series was never able to explore the original gameplay concepts in full. By making these games to that original standard whilst incorporating their vast amount of experience with newer titles, both Rockman9 and Rockman10 were able to achieve things previously unprecedented in the series.

It's simply the case that Inti failed to add unlockable features outside of the core game without having to rely on downloads. Rockman9 and Rockman10 sorely needed something akin to RockmanS and RockmanC from Rockman Rockman. The means to eventually upgrade the gameplay to more modern standards, without taking away from the balance created by the Rockman2 base.

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not just that, imagine the overall complexity they CAN have. multiple floors and pathways, with powerups and stuff on them. Yknow, give the impression of an ACTUAL futuristic building or something. to get that one capsule you see up on a ledge, you would have to find a way to get up there.

Play more Metroid Prime?



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #271 on: July 21, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
not just that, imagine the overall complexity they CAN have. multiple floors and pathways, with powerups and stuff on them. Yknow, give the impression of an ACTUAL futuristic building or something. to get that one capsule you see up on a ledge, you would have to find a way to get up there.
Like all 3D games have been for a long time, you mean. =P



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #272 on: July 21, 2010, 05:44:00 PM
As interesting as a 3D Megaman would be, there's a lot that could go wrong, too. Ever hear of the Polygon Ceiling?

But as long as we're going to discuss 3D MM, I'd like the levels to be along the lines of the first two Tomb Raiders': expansive and atmospheric (though without the block puzzles).



Offline Flame

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Reply #273 on: July 21, 2010, 09:49:42 PM
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Play more Metroid Prime?
Hey, why not. The only problem being that first person probably wouldnt be the best route. I once again use X-buster as an example.

the thing is I feel capcom has become too afraid to try those kinds of new things. X7 failed horribly, and so now they are shunning the thought of another 3D megaman game. When in reality, they should have worked off of X7 as a base, and built up. change what was bad, and improve what was good.

I mean, all the other franchises from around Mega's time have already been in 3D since the N64. Megaman, had Legends which was it's 3D title, but with Legends all but dropped in the bin, Megaman has gone back to having no 3D titles. Something it sorely needs to catch up to the others.


Posted on: July 21, 2010, 11:04:09 AM
http://protodudesrockmancorner.blogspot.com/2010/07/inafune-talks-mega-man-universe.html

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GS: Do you feel that Mega Man needs a reboot or makeover?
KI: I don’t think it is necessary to determine exactly where the character is heading. Mega Man 9 and Mega Man 10, which were done in the 8-bit style, proved that Mega Man is still widely accepted by its fan base. But, that doesn’t mean that we need to stick only to that 8-bit style because all the fans would get bored of the series. It’s not about whether or not the style is new or old; it is about making new ideas. I am always looking for new ideas for Mega Man.
Well, at least he recognizes it..

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Acid

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Reply #274 on: July 21, 2010, 10:03:15 PM
Well the creator of a series/franchise is not always right.

[spoiler][/spoiler]