Topic: New Capcom game to be showcased at Comic-Con

[Hypershell]

If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X.  A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics.  With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another.  And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking?  The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.

Gee, thanks for summarizing Rockman Zero GBA games.

For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts.  As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).

It's the best control setup there is. It's a control setup where you can control both your character and the camera at the same time.

Legends did that.  Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns.  All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.

The dual-analogue system's strength is that it provides easy access to vertical aiming, which is handy, but ruling out the face buttons during turning is not the most natural thing.  It limits the number of simultaneous actions you can do while aiming.

In MegaMan Legends, you jump and side-roll.  As part of combat.  Now having not actually played the game you're showing me, it's hard for me to envision how every control mechanic works, but I'm not seeing the camera move while Jak is in mid-air.  This is key to combat in Legends.  In fact, combat in general in the video you're showing me appears less mobile.  I'm not seeing Jack move a whole lot, he just shoots as he runs and stuff quickly dies.  Quick-aiming multiple opponents is well suited to such a formula, but Legends goes a bit deeper than that, with combat even against minor enemies generally lasting longer.

all it takes is a tiny bit of getting used to, and after that, it's like riding a bike.

Again, sounds like Legends.  Except, you know, more limiting.  But its an adopted standard and therefore better/more intuitive.

Wiimote's good for aiming on the screen, but for actual turning? Nope.

Well, there's Mario Galaxy, if you count the fact that you're shooting from off-screen completely irrelevant to the character you're turning.

My main shooting experience on Wii is Metroid Prime, and I don't believe the Metroid Prime setup is perfect.  Ever since it came out I have repeatedly criticized its lack of button customization and inability to disable vertical auto-leveling, a "feature" which I find extremely annoying.  Nevertheless, while one may classify Metroid Prime as an "adventure" rather than "shooter", there is no denying that shooting takes precedence over maneuverability.  MegaMan is the other way around, which from previous discussions I have gathered is one of your gripes with it (inability to aim and all).

I would imagine, though, that turning independent of your Wii pointer would be a lot easier to handle in 3rd-person.  Legends with the Wii remote could be epic.

Why should we need lock-on to a single target? With lock-on, we can't aim at enemies the way we like.

I don't know about that, manual aiming in Legends works well enough for ground enemies (I didn't see any interesting mid-air opponents in that Jak video).  Plus any lock-on worth a damn allows you to cycle through enemies.

And it depends on how fast your enemies are.  Show me anything using dual-analogue that is roughly equivalent to jumping over a giant robot wyvern as it attempts to ram you and never losing your aim during the midair 180-degree turn.  Manual-only limits your boss maneuverability a bit; or at the very least it leaves it unavoidable that you will scramble to get a highly mobile enemy out of your "blind spot" after they've jumped off-screen, dashed behind you, etc.

Legends has actually gone both ways, too, which is why I asked earlier which one you have played.  L1 was done without a (mobile) lock-on.  And I never had an issue with keeping enemies in my sights, the shoulder-button camera control is a system which I can work flawlessly (in fact when possible I migrate strafing controls in other Playstation games to the D-Pad in order to mimick it, such as in Armored Core).  L2 had mobile lock-on.  L2 was better for it.  The enemy AI and mobility was noticeably superior in ways that L1 never would have managed.

[Gaia]

If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X.  A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics.  With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another.  And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking?  The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.

For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts.  As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).
Legends did that.  Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns.  All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.

Dude, wooow. If they remade Rockman Zero, let's go with that logic

But yeah, we should model the 3D off of Stonekong's stage when developing the next 3D X game. But we should also add the Maze in CM, that was good use of 3D there.

[Bueno Excelente]

If they make another 3D X it needs to be full 3D X.  A lot of the issues plaguing X7 come from the crossover not working out very well, in particular various attacking mechanics.  With Zero's techniques, what's wide in one "dimension" is paper-thin in another.  And auto-lock in 2D segments, what the hell were they thinking?  The fact that the entire 2D level design save for Stonekong was worthless didn't help matters.

For the purpose of Rockman Zero, Inticreates does not believe in breasts.  As such, "semi-nude Roll", at least in the context I hope he meant, may be considered an enhancement (or possibly a Zero/Legends crossover, given that Trigger always finds a way to scope her out).
Legends did that.  Left all face buttons available while operating both simultaneously, and provided for quick 180-degree camera turns.  All before analogue inputs were ever part of the equation.

The dual-analogue system's strength is that it provides easy access to vertical aiming, which is handy, but ruling out the face buttons during turning is not the most natural thing.  It limits the number of simultaneous actions you can do while aiming.

In MegaMan Legends, you jump and side-roll.  As part of combat.  Now having not actually played the game you're showing me, it's hard for me to envision how every control mechanic works, but I'm not seeing the camera move while Jak is in mid-air.  This is key to combat in Legends.  In fact, combat in general in the video you're showing me appears less mobile.  I'm not seeing Jack move a whole lot, he just shoots when he has a breather and stuff dies.  The quick-aiming is well suited to such a formula, but Legends goes a bit deeper than that, with combat even against minor enemies generally lasting longer.
Again, sounds like Legends.  Except, you know, more limiting.  But its an adopted standard and therefore better/more intuitive.
Well, there's Mario Galaxy, if you count the fact that you're shooting from off-screen completely irrelevant to the character you're turning.

My main shooting experience on Wii is Metroid Prime, and I don't believe the Metroid Prime setup is perfect.  Ever since it came out I have repeatedly criticized its lack of button customization and inability to disable vertical auto-leveling, a "feature" which I find extremely annoying.  Nevertheless, while one may classify Metroid Prime as an "adventure" rather than "shooter", there is no denying that shooting takes precedence over maneuverability.  MegaMan is the other way around, which from previous discussions I have gathered is one of your gripes with it (inability to aim and all).
I don't know about that, manual aiming in Legends works well enough for ground enemies (I didn't see any interesting mid-air opponents in that Jak video).  Plus any lock-on worth a damn allows you to cycle through enemies.

And it depends on how fast your enemies are.  Show me anything using dual-analogue that is roughly equivalent to jumping over a giant robot wyvern as it attempts to ram you while never losing your aim during the midair 180-degree turn.  Manual-only limits your boss maneuverability a bit; or at the very least it leaves it unavoidable that you will scramble to get a highly mobile enemy out of your "blind spot" after they've jumped off-screen, dashed behind you, etc.

Legends has actually gone both ways, too, which is why I asked earlier which one you have played.  L1 was done without a (mobile) lock-on.  And I never had an issue with keeping enemies in my sights, the shoulder-button camera control is a system which I can work flawlessly (in fact when possible I migrate strafing controls in other Playstation games to the D-Pad in order to mimick it, such as in Armored Core).  L2 had mobile lock-on.  L2 was better for it.  The enemy AI and mobility was noticeably superior in ways that L1 never would have managed.

Alright, let's take a look at this:

Legends made you able to control a camera with triggers. That's two buttons. I'm talking about controlling a camera, not simply being able to give the left-right imput. Face buttons can easily be swapped to triggers. You don't really need every single face button. Heck, the two different kicks in Legends basically showed exactly that. You should have one single button to interact, which could be X, one button to shoot, mapped to a trigger, the menus can be kept to the start and select screens, and to jump and switch stuff, we got two other triggers. Why do we even need face buttons? And heck, if we do, platforming can work quite well with face buttons/dual analog. Halo uses jump-strafe alot, and so do alot of other games. Heck, Crackdown has quite alot of platforming, and it works as a TPS. Check it out:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfb4U9m_2Fc[/youtube]

For a standard of gameplay nowadays, if any game adapted classic Legends gameplay, it would be seen as simply BAD gameplay. Games have to fit what's comfortable for the player. In this case, what's comfortable for you, is something that became impossible to use for people who are used to nowadays' games, with more intuitive controls which are commonly used in every single game with a functioning manual camera. Most games nowadays with a third person perspective have the analog stick used for camera movement. It's been like that for a LOOOOONG time. So everyone, either shooter players or non-shooter players will be expecting such a thing. it'll be intuitive, rather than trigger controls which give you small imput over the camera just for the sake of using the face buttons at the same time.

...when does the Wiimote pointer feature anywhere in Mario Galaxy's turning? You lost me. It worked pretty well in Resi 4, Metroid Prime 3, The Conduit, and other FPS games on the console, but again, it's not fit for someone to turn. An analog stick's quicker and more intuitive, you're basically aiming a little targer at the screen at the same time as you're moving your character around.

Jumping around, getting out of a way of a big hulking creature and never losing aim over it? You just described Halo's Hunters, man. =P And check out how to fight a Berzerker on Gears of War to find out how to really dodge well incoming big enemies. Seriously, it's really easy to work the jumping around in TPS games. All you gotta do is get a tiny bit more experience in them. I think the fact that you really have no experience with them, is why you don't think this kind of gameplay would work. Seriously, it is THE perfect fit for Legends.

...and the only kind of gameplay which would be accepted nowadays for a game like Legends. Face it.

[Hypershell]

Heck, the two different kicks in Legends basically showed exactly that.

Two kicks exist only in areas where all actual weapons are unequipped.  Having only a single weapon button for MegaMan games has been considered obsolete ever since the PS1.

Most games nowadays with a third person perspective have the analog stick used for camera movement. It's been like that for a LOOOOONG time.

I'm aware of that.  But there's no reason one cannot present an alternative, especially in a cult revival which has its roots in a drastically different input method.

Before continuing, you may want to look into Control Option D in MML2.  Because I basically hear that as what you're describing, dual analogue + trigger commands.  It's been done, I've tried it, I find it awkward as hell.  But really, that's why the Options menu exists.  There are a great deal of players, especially MegaMan fans, who will tell you that using a shoulder button to jump is not in any way less awkward than using anything but the right analogue stick for camera control.

Not to mention taking on Geetz in manual aim, while technically possible, is the textbook definition of clunk.  Geetz is not just large, he is VERY mobile.  And he's not even a challenging opponent, either, but that just demonstrates the depth of enemy mobility that you need to be able to deal with.  The right analogue stick isn't worth a damn in that fight.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEWr_B1TDg[/youtube]

...when does the Wiimote pointer feature anywhere in Mario Galaxy's turning?

It doesn't.

An analog stick's quicker and more intuitive, you're basically aiming a little targer at the screen at the same time as you're moving your character around.

That's my point.  For TPS, the Wii Remote rules over dual-analogue.  And frankly I believe it does in FPS as well.  The precision you get from the pointer can't be matched by a stick.  It's like having a mouse for your TV.  Whether or not the dev has incorporated a quick-turn command is a separate issue.

[Bueno Excelente]

Two kicks exist only in areas where all actual weapons are unequipped.  Having only a single weapon button for MegaMan games has been considered obsolete ever since the PS1.
I'm aware of that.  But there's no reason one cannot present an alternative, especially in a cult revival which has its roots in a drastically different input method.

However, before continuing, you may want to look into Control Option D in MML2.  Because I basically hear that as what you're describing, dual analogue + trigger commands.  It's been done, I've tried it, I find it awkward as hell.  Not to mention taking on Geetz in manual aim is the textbook definition of clunk.  Geetz is not just large, he is VERY mobile.

But that's why the Options menu exists.  There are a great deal of players who will tell you that using a shoulder button to jump is not in any way less awkward than using anything but the right analogue stick for camera control.
It doesn't.That's my point.  For TPS, the Wii Remote rules over dual-analogue.  And frankly I believe it does in FPS as well.  The precision you get from the pointer can't be matched by a stick.  It's like having a mouse for your TV.  Whether or not the dev has incorporated a quick-turn command is a separate issue.

Agreed with the rest, and honestly, don't count on classic controls, but good luck.

But although a Wiimote would be good for aiming, it's AWFUL for turning. It's good for say... light gun games and the sort. And for games where you stop and aim, such as Resi 4, or soon to be Other M. But for TPS/FPS? Turning is something you need to do incredibly fast, and pointing the remote at the edge of the screen just doesn't work. Often, the screen just loses track of it, and it's not as accurate as a dual stick function. Turning and movement is half of the whole control scheme. And if you say Motion Plus, no. Red Steel 2 reportedly had help from Nintendo to make it work, and it's the same crap. You move it out of the screen, it quickly loses its regular imput and starts moving like crazy, so it has to calibrate from minute to minute. As someone who's pretty much tried to get used to every single shooter in the console, the answer is no. It does not work. And quick turns, honestly, aren't needed in this day and age. You don't see any recent game which doesn't have slow tank controls or slow turning with any quick turns. The player should be able to look in any direction fast, without any kind of worry. It's possible to do that in most games in half a second. You seriously gotta get used to more recent games with these examples if you want to see how well they work.

[Hypershell]

Turning is something you need to do incredibly fast, and pointing the remote at the edge of the screen just doesn't work. Often, the screen just loses track of it, and it's not as accurate as a dual stick function.

At least in an FPS you have the use of the entire screen, unlike Sega's take on the pointer.

It depends on how well the game is made, I'd say, in addition to your own dexterity with keeping within screen boundaries.  It's why most "evolved" Wii FPSes will allow you to adjust turning sensitivity.  In Metroid Prime, for example, while the entire gaming press seems to believe that Advanced sensitivity is the only way to go, I personally find it too jittery, so I go with Normal.  Never had a problem.

I still want to deliver a boot to the head of whoever's idea it was to include no option to disable vertical auto-level, but I've never had turning issues.

Motion Plus should never be necessary for pointer controls.  As for its usefulness in error-reduction for such, the sensor bar may still be necessary to calibrate it but I can't imagine it actually is required to keep it in constant sight, given Zelda's sword waves and such.  You charge them by pointing directly in the air.  So my gut's telling me that Red Steel 2 simply dropped the ball.  Maybe Conduit 2 will work better?

[Bueno Excelente]

At least in an FPS you have the use of the entire screen, unlike Sega's take on the pointer.

It depends on how well the game is made, I'd say, in addition to your own dexterity with keeping within screen boundaries.  It's why most "evolved" Wii FPSes will allow you to adjust turning sensitivity.  In Metroid Prime, for example, while the entire gaming press seems to believe that Advanced sensitivity is the only way to go, I personally find it too jittery, so I go with Normal.  Never had a problem.

It still is awful. While turning is simply an automatic motion in any other game, going through having to use the aiming Wiimote to turn is awfully cumbersome.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRMn1tj5-Nc[/youtube]

Imagine playing a game like this with the wiimote. While yes, that's mouse controls, the right analog stick is the closest kind of comfort available for consoles. And it plays quite well with games such as Serious Sam, that REQUIRE such a fast imput. Games like this would be pretty much impossible to play with a wiimote, because the turning would be slow and cumbersome. It's the reason why current FPS games like Red Steel have old-style Metroid Prime single analog stick turning in regular areas. Because the Wiimote just isn't enough for fast movement. Evolving dexterity to keep within screen boundaries isn't just a slow and tedious kind of training, it's still a worse style than having a single hour of experience with  dual analogs.

[Hypershell]

I'm still laying that issue at the feet of devs rather than the hardware.  There's no reason one cannot map analogue directions to the field of a pointer, and no reason the pointer cannot move about all areas of the screen as quickly as an analogue stick can switch directions.  I get plenty of practice in that just out of boredom waiting through loading screens (I blame mainly Pokemon Battle Revolution for that one).

The hiccup is in how one handles the borders, turning speed, "bounding box", and all that jazz.  On borders, Sonic Team presents a worst-case scenario in NiGHTS while the majority of devs are more competent but still less than ideal.  The screen is not the definition of Wii remote pointing; the sensor bar is.  Even if it is commonplace to leave your game going haywire based solely on screen boundaries rather than the actual IR line of sight, it doesn't make it less moronic.  IMHO, more devs need to stop leaving their pointers hang at the border.  It only serves to disorient the player.  Rather, have the pointer move fully on/off screen and approximate positions as best one can until it returns.  Only when the sensor bar is completely out of the remote's field of view should there ever be a problem.

[Mirby]

I've mapped the joystick on my Gamecube controller to move the pointer and it works quite well. Just saying.

[HokutoNoBen]

A bit more Ono tweet-teasing to be had...

I finally hope to reveal a bit about what I've been relentlessly working on lately..But there is Evo2010 first...and I haven't packed yet!

- http://twitter.com/Yoshi_OnoChin/status/18100234339

He's also revealed that he will be at Comic-Con, as well (at least for the sake of a SF4 panel is what he's been willing to talk about thus far.) But with Inafune planning to also be present for the sake of revealing a game at that same convention, could there be a connection?

*has visions of Darkstalkers dancing in his head* 

[Protoman Blues]

Do you know how hard you just made me? What are you gonna do about this, PB?

See if PBPB wants to come over for some Morphing Time?

[Mirby]

Wait, who are RPM's Rangers?

RANGERS!!

[Aresian]

This topic is good for the Geetz nostalgia. *walks out again*

[Gotham Ranger]

See if PBPB wants to come over for some Morphing Time?

This is satisfactory

[Bueno Excelente]

I'm still laying that issue at the feet of devs rather than the hardware.  There's no reason one cannot map analogue directions to the field of a pointer, and no reason the pointer cannot move about all areas of the screen as quickly as an analogue stick can switch directions.  I get plenty of practice in that just out of boredom waiting through loading screens (I blame mainly Pokemon Battle Revolution for that one).

The hiccup is in how one handles the borders, turning speed, "bounding box", and all that jazz.  On borders, Sonic Team presents a worst-case scenario in NiGHTS while the majority of devs are more competent but still less than ideal.  The screen is not the definition of Wii remote pointing; the sensor bar is.  Even if it is commonplace to leave your game going haywire based solely on screen boundaries rather than the actual IR line of sight, it doesn't make it less moronic.  IMHO, more devs need to stop leaving their pointers hang at the border.  It only serves to disorient the player.  Rather, have the pointer move fully on/off screen and approximate positions as best one can until it returns.  Only when the sensor bar is completely out of the remote's field of view should there ever be a problem.

You can't win that battle. Pure button imput will always be faster than motion/pointer imput. It's just NOT possible to achieve an acceptable imput from a pointer, even using the Motion Plus, to reach the precision required for a high speed multiplayer battle, for example. It simply can't be done. Plus, check out the turning speed between a pointer game and an analog game. It will be MUCH slower with a pointer game, due to the lack of precision it maintains. If a player could turn as fast with a pointer, the screen would go nuts if the target was even a tiny bit off in relation to movement, and yet again, the calibration would have to be redone.

Currently, the best solution would be a three-way one. I'm actually thinking the upcoming PS Move will have that partially. If you have a dual analog setup, and are able to have a pointer target at the same time, it'd be the best of both worlds. Still not better than a WSAD/mouse, but damn close.

[Hypershell]

Pure button imput will always be faster than motion/pointer imput.

I thought you were talking about a stick, not buttons.  If you want to talk 4-button camera control, we can talk Armored Core and Metroid Prime Hunters.  Neither of those are winning any prizes, (the earlier really centers around CPU targetting, and the latter is basically only there to ween players off of traditional inputs).

If a player could turn as fast with a pointer, the screen would go nuts if the target was even a tiny bit off in relation to movement, and yet again, the calibration would have to be redone.

Something I've taken notice of is that the issues you're mention come from using the same device to control both camera and aiming.  The keyboard/mouse video you linked has your weapon constantly aimed at the center of the screen, using the mouse only to turn.  Show me the Wii game that has even attempted this.  With Wii games, devs generally want you to aim with the cursor.  So you're talking about a different control style, not a hardware issue.

For that matter, show me the Dual Analogue TPS which actually functions using such rigid aiming, and I'll show you some slowass enemies.  Such a setup is easily attempted in L2 (use Control Type D and ignore the lock-on button), and it's no prize.  In a non-lock-on Dual Analogue game, the CPU aims for you at all times (as I took notice of in your Jak video).  You do not have the precision necessary to do pinpoint aiming without CPU aid; whether shown by an on-screen indicator or not, it is still effectively an auto-lock with manual camera.  The strength of Metroid Prime 3, or to a lesser degree any game with a manual lock, is that you choose when you do and don't want the CPU to take over.  With the Wii's pointer, you get an unmatched level of versatility (using pointing and lock-on separately, I mean; I utterly despise lock-on-free-aim as it is largely pointless and cramps my hands in any battles demanding rapid-fire).  You can pick off small fries without missing a beat, and use the lock-on to focus on more troublesome foes, be that due to strength or mobility.

And I'm gathering your Legends experience is with L1?  It just occurred to me that L2 doesn't have two different kicks.

[OBJECTION MAN]

It is a lack of logical logic.

Kick logic out and do the impossible!

[Aresian]

Kick logic out and do the impossible!

*shrugs* I like an explanation for anything. If you can explain something, how it works, even if it is only applicable to that world. And make it sound like it makes sense and not utter bullshit, I am satisfied. I'm the kinda guy that spends 3-4 hours browsing the Xenosaga III encyclopedia. I'm the guy that really digs how stuff like Fate/Stay Night explains magic and what have you, then gets even more stoked when I find a Wiki that explains things further.

[Protoman Blues]

But DC explains how everything works.  In fact, DC as of recent years, has gotten far far superior at explaining how things work moreso than Marvel.

[Turian]

@Superbat: I get what you are saying. Play Legends 2 with type d controls and it's just like what you are saying it should be. Legends 2 is FAR superior to Legends 1.
L1 for shoot, R1 for second weapon, L2 for jump and R2 for lock on. Second analogue is Aiming/camera, and first analogue is for movement.

 It works great, It's how I always play Legends 2. I hope Legends 3 has the lost planet/dead rising controls. Because they are basically the evolution of the Legends 2 setup, considering MT framework was made with Legends 3 in mind in the first place.

[Aresian]

But DC explains how everything works.  In fact, DC as of recent years, has gotten far far superior at explaining how things work moreso than Marvel.

I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.

No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.

[Protoman Blues]

I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.

No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.

Actually, not really.  Usually when DC comes out with new comics, retcons, etc., they tend to have a whole Secret Files and Origins type comic or 6. Both GL & Supes has had one, and I fully expect one coming for the Flash soon as well.

LoL, and most animes are supernatural soaps. 

[Bueno Excelente]

I read about the Flash and all that. It all starts to sound like a supernatural soap. But honestly, for me to ever potentially get into it, I'd have to start from the beginning. And honestly, no time to hunt down over 9000 comics about a douchebag that runs fast.

No offense. I just have more pressing things to do.

There's just been a reboot. 3 singular issues are out. And if you want good old storylines, why not read The Human Race, Rogue War, or Blitz? Those are all amazing, and do a pretty darn good job at explaining everything. If you read ABOUT Flash, you haven't read Flash. I know few people who have read ALL Superman comics from the start, or ALL Batman comics from the start (I actually did it in an entire summer, [parasitic bomb] was so golden/silver/modern age). Why not start from a reboot? Or read any of Wally's great storylines? It just seems to me that you think it's crap, yet you don't WANT to know more about it. I do believe that doesn't give you the authority to to state the actual quality of the stories. If you want, simply say "I'm not interested in the subject at hand and I do not want to find out more about it" and be done with it.

I thought you were talking about a stick, not buttons.  If you want to talk 4-button camera control, we can talk Armored Core and Metroid Prime Hunters.  Neither of those are winning any prizes, (the earlier really centers around CPU targetting, and the latter is basically only there to ween players off of traditional inputs).
Something I've taken notice of is that the issues you're mention come from using the same device to control both camera and aiming.  The keyboard/mouse video you linked has your weapon constantly aimed at the center of the screen, using the mouse only to turn.  Show me the Wii game that has even attempted this.  With Wii games, devs generally want you to aim with the cursor.  So you're talking about a different control style, not a hardware issue.
For that matter, show me the Dual Analogue TPS which actually functions using such rigid aiming, and I'll show you some slowass enemies.  Such a setup is easily attempted in L2 (use Control Type D and ignore the lock-on button), and it's no prize.  In a non-lock-on Dual Analogue game, the CPU aims for you at all times (as I took notice of in your Jak video).  You do not have the precision necessary to do pinpoint aiming without CPU aid; whether shown by an on-screen indicator or not, it is still effectively an auto-lock with manual camera.  The strength of Metroid Prime 3, or to a lesser degree any game with a manual lock, is that you choose when you do and don't want the CPU to take over.  With the Wii's pointer, you get an unmatched level of versatility (using pointing and lock-on separately, I mean; I utterly despise lock-on-free-aim as it is largely pointless and cramps my hands in any battles demanding rapid-fire).  You can pick off small fries without missing a beat, and use the lock-on to focus on more troublesome foes, be that due to strength or mobility.
And I'm gathering your Legends experience is with L1?  It just occurred to me that L2 doesn't have two different kicks.

I wasn't talking about 4-button camera imput. Although that was merely acceptable with the N64 FPS games, it couldn't be done well for any kind of games today. Stick imput, same as button imput.

I'll give you a nice comparison. Check out Super Mario 64 DS. That game gives you the ability to control Mario with the touch screen, using the nub. That's how regular dual stick FPS players feel when they have to turn in a Wii FPS. And no amount of practice will change the fact that analog buttons are simply better. No, there's no Wii game that ever attempted to always have the weapon in the middle of the screen, because it would remove what's good about pinpoint aiming with the Wiimote in the first place. The ability to work the game like a light gun game. The Wii is AMAZING for light gun games and stuff like Resi 4. But it fails when it comes to actual movement with the pointer. The place where you place the pointer on the screen also measures the speed of your turn? That's awful when talking about actual speedy playing.

And do you want any fast-paced TPS games where the enemies are constantly shooting at you? How about Red Dead Redemption? Uncharted? Gears of War? Heck, the ONLY TPS game I've seen so far where the aim isn't always in the center of the screen is Lost Planet. And the Wii version of Resi 4. And why SHOULD the aim not be in the center of the screen at all times when we're talking about dual analog setup? Honestly, I really don't know if you know what you're talking about. Ever played Timesplitters, for example? That's a really fast-paced FPS, and the aiming's completely manual. Uncharted? You get to run, jump, shoot, duck, and do alot of other crap and the aiming's perfectly manual. And yes, in all of those games, the CPU aims at you the whole time. There's aim assist on the easier difficulties for inexperienced players, but once you're good at it, you naturally turn it off, because playing full manual is much better for good aiming.

[Hypershell]

Stick imput, same as button imput.

In what universe?  A stick is not a button.

That game gives you the ability to control Mario with the touch screen, using the nub. That's how regular dual stick FPS players feel when they have to turn in a Wii FPS.

That's an exaggeration.  You can't visually see where your boundaries are in SM64DS, seeings how your eyes are trained on the top screen, making it infinitely more difficult to find the "neutral" position.  Further, there are severe ergonomic issues with keeping your thumb in the center of a DS system.

I'm not saying this is a format I'd want to see, I happen to LIKE Metroid Prime 3/Trilogy's setup even if it could stand a few more options, but I'm just saying that your mouse/keyboard video attempts to draw a comparison where none yet exists.  You're referring to two different sets of play mechanics, and each have their own strengths regardless of the hardware used to handle them, as such you cannot use them for comparisons of the hardware.

Heck, the ONLY TPS game I've seen so far where the aim isn't always in the center of the screen is Lost Planet.

Your Jak video says otherwise.  You're "ballparking" your aim and the computer does the rest.  It's extremely obvious at 0:16.  The camera makes no vertical movement and yet Jak is firing at enemies of varying elevations.  That's auto-correction.  And it's how most "non-lock-on" TPS games function.

Seriously.  Play Legends 2, Control Type D, and forsake lock-on.  I cannot stress this enough; we're talking in the context of a Legends game, so you ought to actually try the Legends game that attempted dual-analogue.  I wouldn't vouch for the calibration of the analogue sticks, but nevertheless, try aiming using the right stick in that game against flying opponents without using lock-on, and that's what I mean when I say "fully manual."  Because of the fact that the game actually does feature a lock-on, the computer grants you absolutely no leeway.  I've tried it, I've re-attempted it over the course of this discussion, and it blows.  It is clunky.  The format does not function against reasonably fast opponents without the computer auto-correcting you, the only question is to how far an extent.  I have enough of an eye for detail that I pick this up immediately in other games, including Shadow; it cheapens the experience.  You're not truly aiming, you're just pointing in the general direction.  I'd rather lock and focus on my own maneuvers.  If you want to convince me of how well the right stick can keep up with a fast, close-range and vertically moving enemy, then keep dishing out the YouTube videos, because in the three you've provided so far I've seen nothing that compares to Geetz.

[Bueno Excelente]

In what universe?  A stick is not a button.

It's still a button-like imput. Only you press it on a direction, with different intensity as to if you want to walk or run, or to look slowly or quickly. Buttons can have different imput intensities. The Dual Shock 2 actually did this quite well on certain games. MGS2 had that "take your finger off the button slowly and the weapon does not fire" mechanic.

You can't visually see where your boundaries are in SM64DS, seeings how your eyes are trained on the top screen.  Further, there are severe ergonomic issues with keeping your thumb in the center of a DS system.

You're telling me that after having those two issues fixed, the analog could just be replaced?

Your Jak video says otherwise.  You're "ballparking" your aim and the computer does the rest.  It's not unlike Godzilla Unleashed, where you aim beam weapons by tilt rather than by cursor.  As long as you're in the right general area, the computer auto-corrects you.  That's what I'm talking about.

Jak isn't a third person shooter. (don't you dare say that it is "because you shoot and see in the third person") You don't even AIM in the game. It's a platforming game with shooting elements. I gave it as an example due to people mentioning Legends as a game that mixed shooting with platforming. Legends 3 doesn't HAVE to be fully aimeable. And with a Jak type of play, it would work nicely.

Seriously.  Legends 2, Control Type D, forsake lock-on.  I cannot stress this enough; we're talking in the context of a Legends game, so you ought to actually try the Legends game that attempted dual-analogue.  I wouldn't vouch for the calibration of the analogue sticks, but try aiming using the right stick in that game without using lock-on, and that's what I mean when I say "fully manual."  I've tried it, I've re-attempted it over the course of this discussion, and it blows.  The format does not function against reasonably fast opponents without the computer auto-correcting you.  If you want to convince me of fast-paced action, keep dishing out the YouTube videos, because in the three you've provided so far I've seen nothing that compares to L2.

Just because the game sucks at actually providing a functional dual analog setting, it doesn't mean other games would. I'm not gonna dish out more youtube videos. You keep telling me to go try out Legends 2 again, you go try out Uncharted, or Gears of War. Or Max Payne, for example. Or Oni, or MGS4 (Japanese lock-on mechanic is awful to play that game well) or any other kind of ACTUAL third-person shooter game without any need for lock-on mechanics, that has fast enemies, and which people have actually been PLAYING for a long time. Heck, third person shooters aren't alot, but many FPS games have the exact same mechanics as them, excluding the character being seen on the screen. And you get to move really fast and aim at really fast enemies all around you at all times. People have done it for ages. If you keep referring to a ten-year old game as having the best gameplay for third person shooting when people have been playing games with much better gameplay for years, that actually ALLOW you full aiming control while giving you ease of aiming at fast-moving enemies... I dunno, I feel like I should tell you to not talk about something you don't understand, and go play some FPS/TPS games. (after seeing what I saw of Legends 2 in a few videos... yeah, still dissapointed)