Topic: Mega Man 9 > Mega Man 1-6

[Gauntlet101010]

I'm not that great of a player and I don't have that hard of a time with the Big Eyes of MM1.  If I can get by them, so can the average player.  It's just a matter of staying reletively close and then running at the right time.  Or hitting them with a buster barrage until they fall.  Similar jumpers in 3 account for the slide to get you by easily or are placed in such a way that beating them is easier if you wait for them to make their move.

Anyhow, I'm not sure requireing Master Weapons is really a design flaw.  It's just a different mindset in making a Megaman game.  You could argue that making MM2 rely on master weapons made each one of them justified.  And that it added to the challenge.  It's a cheap shot, but sometimes that's what games are for. 

Some of the things you're chalking up to design flaws seem to me to be the MM teams trying different sets of challenges.  Enemies too low to shoot until they jump were introduced in MM1 and the Fleas were far more annoying than MM3's frogs.  But both enemies could be easily dispatched with master weapons tho.  MM9's spinners and sparks seem to have the exact same concept.

Edit:
I mean, your definition of a "design flaw" doesn't seem to actually be a true flaw, but is just a part where you think the game designers were, perhapse, a bit unfair.  Megaman is a memorisation game.  Dying and anticipating a pattern is a part of the memorisation process. 

I mean ... to me King's 3-in-one level in R&F suffers from a design flaw.  Each stage is complete and challenging, but it doesn't give players a break if they die.  You gotta repeat three entire stages because they are, technically, one stage.  This is a design flaw because the difficulty level skyrockets on the final King, while the prior two levels aren't quite so bad.

MM1 has one very big design flaw: they allow you access to Wily if you don't collect Magnet Beam.  This is probably why essential items are just given to you in later games rather than found in the stages.  And if you don't have it you ar stuck and have to reset the game.  This is a design flaw.

You can say MM2's first Wily level suffers from a design flaw becuase there's few enemies to farm powerups from if you waste out of item energy.  That's a flaw because it negates the amount of lives you have and is more of a time waster than a challenge.   It's not the use of items, it's the lack of enemies to farm off should you fail multiple times.  There's a Joe and a Scworm, but they don't drop things very quickly.

MM3 has a similar flaw in Doc Gemini's level, according to Zan.  If you manage to make it to the other side of the great abyss without any Rush Coil and Rush jet weapon energy you are stuck just below the door.  Even if you have to be a total idiot mixed with a great gamer to manage this feat, it's still a flaw in level design.

But the "randomness" of some RMs and the pattern of the dissappearing blocks don't really seem like objective flaws to me.  They seem like the nature of the beast.  Okay, you don't feel like they should be programmed that way.  You could say this adds a level of frustration maybe.  But ... that is not a true flaw.  The disappearing blocks are beatable.  Especially if you know that, eventually, they're going to appear right above your head .... and especially if they're in a single screen.

[Hypershell]

Hazards are actually avoidable the first time through instead of relying on memorization, meaning the developers actually took the time to consider human reaction times.

I don't know what the hell game you were playing.  MM9 throws some of the cheapest death-traps in the series against you, barring MM1's dreaded gun platforms in Wily Stage 1.  There are several death traps with no way of forseeing them, including the entirely too abundant helicopter claws and the first spikes block in Splash Woman's stage.  Spark Man Doc Robot has nothing on that.

As far as I'm concerned there is too LITTLE in MM9 that relates to reaction times as compared to other NES games, MM3 especially.  And not only does this mean more cheap deaths, but it also means that once you learn them, the game is too simple.  MM9 is nowhere near the greatness of its predecessors in that department.  It was saved by one thing: DLC.  For the basic package, it doesn't live up to its heritage.

And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, if the Shadow Man/Top Man hoppers are your idea of troublesome then I think you need to fine-tune your skills a bit.

[Solar]

I don't know what the hell game you were playing.  MM9 throws some of the cheapest death-traps in the series against you, barring MM1's dreaded gun platforms in Wily Stage 1.  There are several death traps with no way of forseeing them, including the entirely too abundant helicopter claws and the first spikes block in Splash Woman's stage.  Spark Man Doc Robot has nothing on that.

I've never seen what was so troublesome about those spikes Splash Woman's stage, never gave me trouble. However, I do agree 9 has the cheapest deaths.

[Bag of Magic Food]

I think the series peaked at 5 for graphics

Now what's this all about?  I have trouble thinking of any real stand-out moments in 5's graphics, but 6 had some of the most advanced and beautiful graphics in the NES series.  Or maybe I'm just easily dazzled when an NES game actually bothers to have background graphics in outdoor levels, because I always think back to TomahawkMan's sunset and YamatoMan's mountain at the beginning, though YamatoMan's stage looked nice overall.  And you had the nice new animations with the Rush Armors...  MM4 and 5 were no slouches in the graphics department, either, though.  Maybe I'll have to look over screenshots of all the games again sometime.

Quick - I never use this weapon except against the dragon and Guts Dozer. Not very useful.  Too much like the buster, not enough range.

Eh, I find those to be good points.  It's got the speed and effectiveness of Metal Blade, but confined to a small area so you can really wail on an enemy once it gets in range.  I found it helpful against Springers in some places and against Sniper Joes when there wasn't room to dodge, for example.  I think Quick Boomerang even beat that giant fish in one hit, at least in the NES version.

Magnet - Most useful weapon in MM3.  Good against the stationary subboses.

I never found it very useful because it's such an energy guzzler, especially for a weapon whose intended use allows it to miss fairly often against fast enemies and enemies that fire projectiles.

Spark - Freezes the big "jumpers" in place, so it shares that use with Ice Slasher in MM1.  Still, it's too much like Arm Cannon.

Um, Spark Shock freezes ANY enemy in place that's not a boss or invulnerable.  It's nothing like the Mega Buster.  In fact, it's really more like a combination of the worst traits of Ice Slasher and Time Stopper: You have to freeze individual enemies by aiming at them, but you can't switch weapons while an enemy is frozen, frozen enemies still hurt you, and once two enemies are frozen, you can't fire anymore.  (I believe this is because the game considers the "static field" around an enemy to be one of your projectiles.  Just watch what happens when a moving enemy collides with a frozen enemy in the NES version.)

MM1 has one very big design flaw: they allow you access to Wily if you don't collect Magnet Beam.  This is probably why essential items are just given to you in later games rather than found in the stages.  And if you don't have it you ar stuck and have to reset the game.  This is a design flaw.

Well, it's not a fatal flaw in that you merely have to lose all your lives so you can revisit ElecMan, but it could easily make new players give up the game in frustration if they fail to think of doing that.

You can say MM2's first Wily level suffers from a design flaw becuase there's few enemies to farm powerups from if you waste out of item energy.  That's a flaw because it negates the amount of lives you have and is more of a time waster than a challenge.   It's not the use of items, it's the lack of enemies to farm off should you fail multiple times.  There's a Joe and a Scworm, but they don't drop things very quickly.

I remember that was also an issue with Boo Beam Trap, which drains most or all of your Crash Bomber and some of your Items.  When I fail at it, I've found myself journeying back to the Metalls in the first vertical section for easier energy farming.

And that's why I don't like energy guzzlers.  (Some weapons that use more than 1 unit don't really count as guzzlers due to their nature, though.  For example, who would bother to use 14 of GutsMan's blocks in a single level without ever refilling?)

[Protoman Blues]

Hazards: I've still gotta disagree on this one. These puzzles seemed fairly reasonable compared to, say, MM5's disappearing blocks in the after-game stages. Granted, you could sit there and watch those, but they were more complex than either Plug Man's blocks or even Hornet Man's Rollout platforms. Perhaps not as an absolute, but I can safely say that you don't have to memorize the puzzle layouts of MM9 (certainly if compared to those of previous games). And the strange part, the majority of my opinion on that is based on how narrow the required jumps involved are. Puzzles are fairly straightforward unlike Dust Man's junk compactor; look, I shot a one-square hole for me to slide through, can't I just go on? Geez.

Um, not to be rude, but the two things you mentioned from MM4 & MM5 are not only easy, but PAINFULLY easy.  In the history of me playing those two games, I've NEVER died at any of those point.  Ever.

Hoppers: I hear ya on the Charge Shot. I'll admit, I was a bit disheartened to see the MM4 charge shot rather than the MM6, 7, or 8 shot which has a wider range. Regardless, what makes Hoppers more annoying is their placement relative to Mega Man's entrance onto the screen. I don't believe the enemy regeneration rate factors into those little guys, but it sure makes Mega Man 2 annoying.

Again, I've never had a problem with those things.  But, if you want to talk about screen placement like that as an example, sometimes those Spiders in MM9 are the exact same way, in terms of placement.  So this point is once again moot.

Jumpers: Agreed, though I would say that a proper Mega Man game should be able to be beaten without using any special weapons. If Mega Man 2 ever did have Challenges, "Clear the game without using any Special Weapons" couldn't be one of them, thanks to the 2nd Wily Stage boss and Alien Wily.

MM9 doesn't have that challenge either.  The challenge is, "CLEAR THE GAME BY USING THE LEAST AMOUNT OF WEAPON ENERGY POSSIBLE!" which can be done in any MM game, by the logic you've stated above.

Weapons: They're definitely strong, and I love it. But the good weapons to use take a very large chunk of energy. You don't even have enough weapon energy for Tornado Blow to finish Magma Man. As far as Plug Ball and Laser Trident go, well, we're used to having good weapons at a low cost, like Metal Blade. There should be at least one of those.

Yes you do.  Tornado Blow can finish Magma Man off with all it's weapon energy.  It just depends on where you hit him.  Also, that point is moot being the in the majority of Classic MM games, the Weapon used to beat said RM usually does it with the greatest of ease.  No, the MM9 weapons are definitely overpowered, even with a couple of them using high weapon energy.  But Jewel Satellite doesn't, can stay on you for a long time, and that's the best weapon in the game, by far.

Boss Patterns: But you've got to admit, MM9's bosses don't have very random movement patterns like Quick Man and Flash Man. Shadow Man's randomness...well, double-edged sword, here. He either jumps high or low three times, then either slides or uses Shadow Blade. Still, it's enough to where considering how far he moves, you don't really have time to get far enough away to evade attack. Same for Hard Man.

That's because some of the MM9 bosses have downright Wii-tarded patterns.  Most of them are easy to figure out, and the harder ones just take trial and error, just like the 3 you mentioned.  And seriously, HardMan?  Terrible example, cause if you have trouble beating him, then man o man...

Graphics: For all the trouble Inticreates went to to be "authentic", the "fades" in MM9 are way too fluid (between stage select/boss intro/game over/weapon get/etc). That said, everything else still meshes well, and the only ambiguity on hitboxes that I could find was on Magma Man. You could have done a short hop, looked like you didn't even touch him, and BAM, you're hit. And as far as controls, maybe there's not much difference between 2-5 and 9, but 1 sure has some issues.

Well that's because it's a more polished 8-Bit game.  I'm not disagreeing with that.  However, graphics, especially the close to exact same graphics as the other MM games do not make the game any better.  As for controls, MM1 was the first, so it stands to reason that the sequel games are going to be better.

Even for all its ups and downs, MM9 can be more fun than some of the older, supposedly "harder" games. Perhaps they are, but is it due to player error, or design flaw? The decision to remove the Slide? Eh, that I can let go. Sliding makes the bosses far too easy. Charge Shot? Yeah, that one I have a bit of an issue with, too. But, it seems like they designed this game to compensate for the loss, and yet didn't explain in the story why.

I can see why people wouldn't like MM9 for all the subjective reasons. Story, graphics, people might actually be really turned off by the concepts of Jewel Man and Splash Woman; we know Inafune was nervous about how people would react to her. There's just a really good chance that, objectively, it has the fewest design flaws, even if it removed or attempted some things.

Okay, and here's where your argument, like most Greater or Less than discussions come to a halt.  You like MM9 better because of personal preference.  This is why this debate will get us nowhere.  This could go on and on, but even if I were to logically answer every single point you make, chances are you'd still think MM9 was better or more fun.  From what I've debated with you about, it seems that you like MM9 better than the other's because it's easier, in regards to hoppers, puzzles, boss patterns, and so on.  You've mentioned parts in the old Classic MM games that I've NEVER had a problem with.  So again, I absolutely disagree that MM9 is a better game than MM1-MM6. 

[CephiYumi]

if it helps, ALL nes megarockmans are hard.... for me

[Flok]

This topic has mainly turned to a Mega Weapons debate, but I will offer some thoughts about other things as well:

I agree. MM1 was hard.

The funny thing about MM9 is that it's the first time that I enjoy every weapon in that game. It's the first time I make full use of every weapon, which in contrary to MM1-6, I pretty much was almost always using the Mega Buster only.

But that only applies to me personally. Here's a quick run down for the MM9 weapons:

Black Hole Bomb stands above Metal Blade for me. I just love the fact how multiple enemies can get insta destroyed by it, how it functions as a defense force, that it is operable to navigate and it's also another pause trick weapon, see Wily 3 Devil Blob boss.

Concrete Shot can instantly swallow huge enemies(But not the hopper, that takes 4 hits) such as the cannon, can instantly drain enemies and bosses plus it's like a semi Rush Coil weapon as well. That, and it stops beams.

Laser Trident is very useful throughout the whole game, being another spammable low WE weapon with a bonus that it pierces through shield enemies such as Sniper Joes as well.

Tornado Blow is useful to clear out many small enemies, but also to kill some of the bosses very fast such as Wily 2's 2nd robot phase, Magma Man and the flower mini boss. Still, there are much faster ways to kill that flower. I am not that fond of the extra high jump you can take while using it, but maybe that is because I haven't used it well yet.

I did not like Magma Bazooka at first, for being too primitive. But then stupid me found out that it was chargeable, plus the damage would be even worse when using this close up. It can kill the flower mini boss in possible the fastest way that I know of, reaches out very far with it's 3 shots, charges very fast, being like a better Atomic Fire and replaceable Mega Buster and it is quite spammable as well.

Plug Ball travels very fast, and is the second most spammable Mega Weapon in the game. Plug Ball might not seem useful at first, but I mainly use it throughout the difficult parts where the enemies are hard to hit without getting yourself hit. I am mainly talking about the Sniper Joes's positions in the Wily Stages then. I also of course use it against Tornado Man and Wily's Flying Saucer.

And lastly Jewel Satellite takes brokenness to a new level. I don't even need to explain this one.

As for Mega Man 9 being the best classic game yet...it isn't for me. That honor goes to Mega Man 3 for the obvious reasons many fans can state, plus the fact that it is a very memorable treasure from the past for me.

I really need to start USING the Mega Weapons, especially in MM4-6 from now on.

[Hypershell]

I've never seen what was so troublesome about those spikes Splash Woman's stage, never gave me trouble. However, I do agree 9 has the cheapest deaths.

They don't give you trouble when you know they're there.  When you don't (first time), you die.  The game drops you right onto the middle of a four-block spike patch at the BOTTOM of an otherwise empty screen, meaning you have no warning as the screen shifts.  By the time you see them, you're already falling and don't have enough time to correct your path.  The only way you don't die there is to already know where you're going before you make the drop.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Mind you, the Hoppers, puzzles, and whatnot are more of a hassle than they are difficult (only sorta, and they were only that difficult the first time you encountered them).

And while you are certainly welcome to your opinion, if the Shadow Man/Top Man hoppers are your idea of troublesome then I think you need to fine-tune your skills a bit.

And seriously, HardMan?  Terrible example, cause if you have trouble beating him, then man o man...

Ooh, those Doc Robot stages. Really, talk about exact jumps.

...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?

Yet another thing to consider.

[Protoman Blues]

...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?

Yet another thing to consider.

I never said MM9 was cheap. 

[HyperSonicEXE]

Actually, I was tying that in to my supposed lack of skill.

EDIT:
I figured at about the first half of the second page after someone had posed the question, it'd be over with, the hard part being actually saying which is the best.
Thinking back through each stage of each game, though, I can see preferences and various skills of each individual player, and then tastes, start to really make this complicated.

I doubt we could even come up with a universal "> List" of each game, at this point. It's no wonder Sonic games and the Mario Kart series seem to get off-track.
Being a game designer would be a lot harder than I thought.

[VixyNyan]

It's just difference in skills, not a lack of it. If you're already good at the previous MM games, then you don't really have any significant problems with this game either. Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^

[HyperSonicEXE]

I'm not much of a speed-runner, nor do I ever really investigate the fastest way around certain enemies or obstacles.

But I do know traps, and I know how they'll probably be sequenced, and I know how to survive them and judge whether or not I can make a long jump or not (the furthest jump Megaman can make if he's right on the edge is roughly a 4-tile jump @ same elevation; based on MM9's tile width).

[Hypershell]

...but now wait, if MM9's cheap, and I seem to be good at it, how do I somehow not have the skill?
Or do I have a different set of skills?

I didn't say you don't have them, I'm saying some refinement may be in order.  The lack of perfection is human nature.

Hoppers are, unlike mets, never invulnerable, they're just inconveniently flat.  While you can kill them through timing alone, if that's too much of a hassle, you can always switch to a special weapon with wider coverage (ie, Needle Cannon).

And personally, on the topic of annoying enemies, I found MM9's pottet plant rocket launchers to be annoying.  As you said, not difficult, but just a pain.  You either have to approach them carefully (I hate tip-toeing in MegaMan games), get equipped with the broken Jewel Satellite, or curse at the game's lack of sliding.

That's another minor annoyance of MM9.  There are many instances in which I feel the designers merely throw the control/game engine limits at you.  It's not just enemy speed going beyond slideless MegaMan levels, either.  A lot of obstacles, particularly in Galaxy Man and Jewel Man, are merely testing how well you can snake your jumping path in a restrictive game format.  To me it feels cheap.  MM1-3 weren't like that.

Yet another is that I feel the game's shop is badly done, but I lack either the will or the time to go into that in detail now.

I doubt we could even come up with a universal "> List" of each game, at this point. It's no wonder Sonic games and the Mario Kart series seem to get off-track.
Being a game designer would be a lot harder than I thought.

You have learned a very valuable lesson, although it shouldn't take long if you've ever read any "how to fix Sonic" discussions.  But the same applies, to varying degrees, to all games.

It's just difference in skills, not a lack of it. If you're already good at the previous MM games, then you don't really have any significant problems with this game either. Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^

Or No Damage Clear Avalanche Yeti.

Wrong series, I know, but I gotta bloat my ego somehow.

Personally I think both Speed runs and "perfect" runs are a measure of dedication, not skill.  They're just trial-and-error.  Sometimes a FRICKIN' LONG AND INHUMAN amount of trial-and-error, but still.

[Satoryu]

Some of us use over-natural skills tho, that lets us beat the game under 25 minutes at the least. Different routes, different techniques. ^^

but i suck at Classic games...

[Gauntlet101010]

Now what's this all about?  I have trouble thinking of any real stand-out moments in 5's graphics, but 6 had some of the most advanced and beautiful graphics in the NES series.  Or maybe I'm just easily dazzled when an NES game actually bothers to have background graphics in outdoor levels, because I always think back to TomahawkMan's sunset and YamatoMan's mountain at the beginning, though YamatoMan's stage looked nice overall.  And you had the nice new animations with the Rush Armors...  MM4 and 5 were no slouches in the graphics department, either, though.  Maybe I'll have to look over screenshots of all the games again sometime.

I'm not gonna go into arguing statements about past weapons.  It's neither here nor there.  I was asked to give my take on how MM9 stacks up and that's what I did.  You can disagree, but it's still what true for me.  Feel free to make your own list.  Although it's kinda pointless since the intent was showing that other games had useful weapons.  They do, but it was pointed out that some in MM9 are useful in strategic ways.

As for MM5 being the best graphics-wise, I'm sticking by that statement.  MM6 was good, but not better than 5.  Crystalman's stage is like a better version of Geminiman's.  While Napalm's is in the 'nam.  Gyro could have a pretty boring design, but they didn't cut any corners and it had nice detail. 

Meanwhile, when I think back too MM6, it's graphics don't really jump out at me.  You're right, the outdoor scene of Yamato's is amazing.  Too bad that's just the one screen.  The rest isn't bad, by any means, but I can't help but like what I saw in MM5 either just as much or better than 6.  And 4 had great graphics too, but MM5 just improved on tham.  Which is only natural. 

Getting to the topic, MM9 tries to emulate MM2.  It has worse graphics on purpose.  That's their artistic choice, but like game hacks, I'm more impressed when they push the NES capabilities as far as they can go.  MM9 relies on the black quite a bit.  Splash Woman's stage in particular struck me as much more empty and flat than they would really have made a game in even the early NES MM era. 

[HyperSonicEXE]

You have learned a very valuable lesson, although it shouldn't take long if you've ever read any "how to fix Sonic" discussions.  But the same applies, to varying degrees, to all games.

At least we're not trying to perfect greatness in Sonic; we're just trying to get that to a decent level.

[JG05]

I never ever thought I would say this in my wildest dreams, BUT, nostalgia bias aside, I would have to agree that MM9 > 1-6.  I think it beats even 2 and 3. 

I've weighed everything (difficulty, design, music, bosses, weapons, story, innovativeness, etc). 

[zuschzero]

As far as weapons goes, here's the order (8 bit games)

1. Megaman 9: Best weapon arsenal, period.
2. Megaman 4: Before MM9, MM4 was the ONLY game where the weapons are not just powerful projectiles, but almost all of them has some extra ability.
3. No, still not your Megaman 2, it's the original Megaman 1 hands down. Yes, hyper bomb sucks and super arm is the most situational weapon ever, but the other 4 are just plain win.
4. Megaman 2.
5. Megaman 6.
6. Megaman 10.
7. Megaman 3: Half of the weapons are generally weak, the second half is just MEH.
8. Megaman 5: Worst arsenal ever.

[KoiDrake]

You're two years late buddy