Topic: Mega Man 9 > Mega Man 1-6

[HyperSonicEXE]

Hazards are actually avoidable the first time through instead of relying on memorization, meaning the developers actually took the time to consider human reaction times.
There are no enemies like the Hoppers in Shadow Man's stage. They're large enough for you to actually shoot. There are the floating tops, but those can be shot down. Only other troublesome enemies I can think of are the scissors and the flowerpots, but you generally have some way of dealing with them.
This game's large Jumper enemies can be shot down in a reasonable amount of time. For that matter, most enemies don't require you to spam the 2 button (okay, depends on your layout) like you're shivering to keep from getting damaged, which is really just a waste of everyone's time rather than a supposed show of skill.
The weapons are actually useful.
The bosses follow logical movement patterns, and Magma Man's "random" jump element can be worked around instead of "dealt with" like you would have to Pharaoh Man, Shadow Man, Flash Man, or Quick Man.
Stage puzzles are over with fairly quickly compared to previous puzzles in the series.
The graphics are fine (considering), the music is great overall, and the controls are fluid.

Mega Man 9 is, in every way, a better game than its 8-Bit counterparts. Kudos to the developers.
Agree? Or disagree?

I know this is a risky topic, but after having toyed around with MMAC just now, I think this needs to be said.
And if you think this topic is risky, ask me what I think about Megaman Legends or Chrono Trigger.

[Satoryu]

i may have to think about this a little bit, but for now my gut says to agree with you.

[UZO]

It was definitely really good. I'm not sure about the best though. If it had Bass in some way or form interact with your progress, then maybe. That was a major let down for me.

Oh also; Legends is super highly enjoyable. Best story in the franchise. Possibly Legends 2 being the best game in the whole franchise. So much heart in that game.

As for Chrono Trigger; best RPG of all time. The end.

[Gauntlet101010]

Haven't played it.  The vids look nice though.

I think some of the points you make (especially the first one) depend on how good you are at these kind of games.  I mean, seriously ... the disappearing blocks in Plugman's level ... if you didn't watch any vids of them you'd die on your first try.  I can't see a real case of "no memorization" being made for that part.  There's probably other parts like that too.

The main point RM9 has going for it is the amount of time since R&F was first released in Japan.  We've had a long, long time to miss Megaman and absence makes the heart grow fonder and fans of MM (and maybe oldschool fans too) have been wanting some NEW oldschool action.  Conversely, we've had plenty of time to play MMs 1-6 to absolute death. 

[HyperSonicEXE]

Haven't played it.  The vids look nice though.

I think some of the points you make (especially the first one) depend on how good you are at these kind of games.  I mean, seriously ... the disappearing blocks in Plugman's level ... if you didn't watch any vids of them you'd die.  I can't see a real case of "no memorization" being made for that part. 

Oh man, you're missing out.

Anyway, actually, I was able to manage through Plug Man's stage, but only because I knew Capcom's tricks relative to the stage layout, so I crossed my fingers and jumped ahead of the blocks that had just appeared. Thankfully, when I got to where I thought a block would pop up, it did.

But. Only because Capcom didn't place any disappearing blocks 2 steps out of sequence.

[Gauntlet101010]

Oh man, you're missing out.

Anyway, actually, I was able to manage through Plug Man's stage, but only because I knew Capcom's tricks relative to the stage layout, so I crossed my fingers and jumped ahead of the blocks that had just appeared. Thankfully, when I got to where I thought a block would pop up, it did.

But. Only because Capcom didn't place any disappearing blocks 2 steps out of sequence.

I am, I know.  Hopefully some sort of suppliment will be made sometime.

Anyhow, you don't disprove my point.  You KNEW Capcom's trick.  Just like anyone who'se seen preview vids.  Unlike the games of yore, this game is in the age of the internet.  So it might not feel like a memorisation game in comparison, but you're getting knowledge in advance, therefore you have to try less.  If you're good at these type of games, you can avoid obsticles.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Anyhow, you don't disprove my point.  You KNEW Capcom's trick.  Just like anyone who'se seen preview vids.  Unlike the games of yore, this game is in the age of the internet.  So it might not feel like a memorisation game in comparison, but you're getting knowledge in advance, therefore you have to try less.

Ah, but knowing the mechanics of a puzzle is different from knowing the exact layout of it.

For example: I know full well that Quick Man's lasers will kill me, but I don't know where some platforms that will slow me down will be nor do I know where the lasers will come from, exactly. Not on my first time through.
Yes, the game is kind enough to scroll down ahead of time to where I can plan some action, but depending upon where I was on the last screen, it might be Game Over.

[Solar]

Well, tbh, even if you haven't seen videos before there are only 4 parts tops where it's easy to die, and one of them is a cheap "lol, in your face" death. Almost all of it is jump forward>wait for a block to disappear>jump forward>repeat

[HyperSonicEXE]

Precisely.

Now, I wasn't too good at the second Scissors part of Hornet Man's stage, though. That could have been poor skill on my part, seeing as how there are two paths you can take.

[Gauntlet101010]

But you could really say that about any hard part in a MM game.  That they're mostly easy except for a few tricky parts.  It still doesn't take into consideration that other people aren't as good as you might be, nor does it take into account that Capcom showed you a video of the trick (and someone else recreated it).  I mean, they walked you through the trick on video.  Before the game was even finished.  You can't tell me that you would have seen it coming if you hadn't had known the trick before hand.

MM1-6 had no such coverage.  No pre-release videos of those games.  That means, less knowledge on how to beat them.

[Solar]

I know, but my point is that most of it is simply jumping forward, you only need to see the pattern once.

[Gauntlet101010]

I know, but my point is that most of it is simply jumping forward, you only need to see the pattern once.

Well, HyperSonic said that it's avoidable the first time.  So he's saying that you don't need to see the pattern at all (unless I'm misreading that first point).  That it's passable on the first run.  I disagree.  We've had videos show us that one time that you'd really need to know before playing that part. 

[HyperSonicEXE]

But you could really say that about any hard part in a MM game.  That they're mostly easy except for a few tricky parts.  It still doesn't take into consideration that other people aren't as good as you might be, nor does it take into account that Capcom showed you a video of the trick (and someone else recreated it).  I mean, they walked you through the trick on video.  Before the game was even finished.  You can't tell me that you would have seen it coming if you hadn't had known the trick before hand.

MM1-6 had no such coverage.  No pre-release videos of those games.  That means, less knowledge on how to beat them.

Most of them, yes. There are some puzzles where memorization was necessary/near-necessary, though. I'd like to meet the person that survived Quick Man's lasers the first time. Also, the only parts of the Plug Man stage I saw, it did show the blocks, but only the easiest parts. I knew they were coming up, and that's it.

True. The Disappearing Blocks must've been something else for people who grew up with MM2.

Well, HyperSonic said that it's avoidable the first time.  So he's saying that you don't need to see the pattern at all (unless I'm misreading that first point).  I disagree.  And we've had videos show us that one time. 

Correct; I didn't need to know the layout, though it does help immensely now that I know it. But, again, both luck and skill factored into that minor accomplishment. I just barely missed dying on the part before the E-Can.

[Solar]

Well, most of it is avoidable, but then near the end is where you will die if you don't pay attention. You have enough time to see perfectly what's coming though, except for that one cheap death that is something you'd expect from a game like IWTBTG or Owata (I think that's how that flash game was called).

[HyperSonicEXE]

That's another thing. You can sit and watch some of these puzzles progress, and then attempt them. Not the whole thing, sometimes, but you can do so.

Then there's Heat Man's stage where if you miss a jump, the block is over your head, and it pretty well spells trouble.
Ice Man's stage, yeah, you can just map out your jumps.

[Protoman Blues]

So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?

[Gauntlet101010]

That along with some very subjective items of note that don't ring true for all six games.

Edit: And, personally, I think MM5's graphics wins over MM9.  MM9 is trying to be retro, but MM5 is still better.  But, again, pretty subjective.  Saying things like that and "less tricky enemies" is a very subjective thing to say.

[Solar]

So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?

I REALLY don't see how it lacks trial and error though. *glares at Concreteman's stage and Wily 3*

[Gauntlet101010]

Thing is, if people are gonna say this sort of thing , they really need to sit down and do some real comparisons.  Quickman's beams, say, do not make MM2 inferior to MM9. 

The "hopper" enemy and Shadowman's pettern alone don't make MM9 greater than MM3.

The weapon usefulnaess has a real good point against games like MMs 4-6 (I, personally, never used anything but the buster there and I tend to suck so you'd think I'd rely on them) because the Master Weapons are a central component in the Megaman games.  That's a good point.  BUT it doesn't apply to MMs 1-3.  The gamnes force the weapons to be useful in MMs 1 and 2.  In MM3 the Top Spin has some bosses pretty weak against it, but there's quite a few times when Magnet Missiles are useful or Search Snakes.  So this point isn't true for every game.

The music and graphics are almost purely subjective.  I think the series peaked at 5 for graphics and I love the MM4 soundtrack.  MM9 loses a point in graphics for me since it actually reuses graphics from prior MM games. (how can it lose to MM2 when it uses graphics from MM2 in some areas?)  Music is MUCH more subjective.  I love MM4's music.  But that doesn't make it the "best". 

And the lack of memorization, again, really depends on luck and how good you are.  And it might not even be a plus, depending on how you see it.

I think you need to prove your case more.  If yer gonna say something like this seriously, I think you need to prove it more than casting MMs1-6 as one huge game VS the good points of MM9 (without any of the bad points mentioned).

[Solar]

The weapon usefulnaess has a real good point against games like MMs 4-6 (I, personally, never used anything but the buster there and I tend to suck so you'd think I'd rely on them) because the Master Weapons are a central component in the Megaman games.  That's a good point.  BUT it doesn't apply to MMs 1-3.  The gamnes force the weapons to be useful in MMs 1 and 2.  In MM3 the Top Spin has some bosses pretty weak against it, but there's quite a few times when Magnet Missiles are useful or Search Snakes.  So this point isn't true for every game.

You have a good point there, however, IMO MM9 has THE most useful weapons in the series. Not a single one of them is useless, none.

Anyways, I think choosing a best MM game is really difficult, hell, I haven't been able to choose between 2 and 3 for years. 9 just makes things harder @_@

[Gauntlet101010]

You have a good point there, however, IMO MM9 has THE most useful weapons in the series. Not a single one of them is useless, none.

Anyways, I think choosing a best MM game is really difficult, hell, I haven't been able to choose between 2 and 3 for years. 9 just makes things harder @_@

THAT depends on how you play.  It truly does.  Speedruns of MM2 show the Air Shooter used in some pretty creative ways.  I never use the Air Shooter, but one speedrun shows it to be one damned effective MM weapon.  I don't think everyone plays with, say, Conctrete Shot up to it's full usefullness. And I've seen other playthroughs that never use Hornet man's weapon at all (okay, except in boss fights). 

I'll accept that there's some weapons in MMs 4-6 that never get used by me and likely nobody else.  But on MM1-3, the weapons are pretty solid.  And, even if the weapo ns on MM9 are truly the best, that doesn't quite make it THE best.  It's one good point in it's favor, but not the ONLY point.  MMs 1-6 are not one game. 

[Solar]

Hmm, good point about the playing styles, but I think that what matters the most is the weapon's potential, just because not many people use C.Shot it does not make it a worse weapon. Still, in the end all of this is a matter of opinion anyways.

And out of curiousity, how would the 1-3's weapons compare to 9's?

[Gauntlet101010]

Hmm, good point about the playing styles, but I think that what matters the most is the weapon's potential, just because not many people use C.Shot it does not make it a worse weapon. Still, in the end all of this is a matter of opinion anyways.

And out of curiousity, how would the 1-3's weapons compare to 9's?

Potential is as potential does.  Used effectively even a so-called lame weapon has the potential to be really useful.  But that doesn't really mean they're all usefull, right?  In a pro's hands Air Shooter is awsome (like I said) but I have never used it. 

Anyhow, I'll take a crack at the weapon comparison.  It'll be tough since I haven't played MM9; I can't say which weapon I would find most useful.

MM1
Cut - First weapon I get; most used by me in MM1.  Many minor enemies are one-hit kills with the cutter and it has range.
Guts - It's forced to be useful in Wily's Castle, Elecman's level (to get the M. Beam), and against "Bubble Boy".
Bomb - Most useless weapon in MM1 that isn't forced to be useful.  Good against Guts but not against much else.
Elec - Range + three directions at once + pause trick = broken weapon and best against the Yellow Devil.  Great weapon in tight spots.
Fire - Another great weapon in tight spots thanks to the sheild.  I use this one whem Cutter runs out.
Ice - Great against Big Eyes sicne it freezes them in midair.  You can use this in Wily 1 to get past that "outside" part easily.  Great against the fire towers; has the potential to make Fireman's stage easy.
win - 5 / 6 (with Guts' weapon having forced usefullness)

MM1 has some losing weapons (bomb and guts), but even guts is forced to be useful, so it isn't a total loss.  However, the weapons we're left with are pretty powerful.  They're very good when playing the game.

MM2
Metal - Best weapon ever.  Used constantly.
Heat - Key to win against *some*bosses.  But it's charging drains so much energy that I, personally, never use it. 
Crash Bombs - forced usefullness against Piko Kun. Forced usefulness as a blockade-destroying device (especially in heat's level).
Flash - Useful in Quick's area.  Useful in Heat's area (freezing the tellys).  In fact: useful wherever tellys are.
Wood - I never use it, but it's useful in Crashman's area and in Wily's area (with the platforms).  Useful against Airman.  Useful against anywhere with Pipis.  Generally usefull to people who aren't really me.
Bubble - Forced usefullness against Wily.  Useful against most ground-trodden enemies.  Not a very useful weapon tho.
Air Shooter - Surprisingly useful if used correctly against all enemies directly above you. 
Quick - I never use this weapon except against the dragon and Guts Dozer. Not very useful.  Too much like the buster, not enough range.  Easily wastes out. 
win - 6/8 (with Bubble and Crash having forced usefulness)

MM2 is designed so that it's weapons are useful in parts of the game.  As such, each one has it's time to shine even if some aren't used as often as others (bubble).  Even if Bubble loses out, it still stands out in our minds, so I can't say it's a total loser.  The rest are also very solid.  Rather balanced.  They're all made to be used a certain way in a certain situation.

MM3
Shadow - I actually don't use the Shadow Blade very often.  Forced usefullness against Wily 1 boss.  Useful against Gamma (VERY usefull).  Still, too similar to arm cannon and not enough range.  However, it CAN hit those frogs in Shadow's level that was previously mentioned.  Others do seem to find it useful, even if I don't usually.
Magnet - Most useful weapon in MM3.  Good against the stationary subboses.
Top - Useful against Gamma, Shadowman, Mega Clone, and at least one Doc Robot.  Hidden usefulness.
Hard - Good against any number of fortress bosses.  Good against the subbosses.  Good for removing blockers.  Useful.
Gemini lazer - Brings Needle down to size.  I found myself using this a lot in my childhood because of it's range and ability to hit things above me.  But time has worn on and I don't use it too often.
Neelde - I always find myself button mashing more than using Needle, but it actually uses very little weapon energy.  Has the potential to be a much better weapon than I usually use it as.  Good against the Docs.  Semi-useful.
Spark - Freezes the big "jumpers" in place, so it shares that use with Ice Slasher in MM1.  Still, it's too much like Arm Cannon.
Snake - Forced usefulness against Gamma if you used up all of Top or just don't know about that weakness.  Good against the top-spewers.  Good against the turtle enemies (Gem's level) and most other ground-based foes.  I'd say it has hidden usefullness, but isn't really used too often.
win - 5/8  Weakly tho, Magnet is so useful it overshadows other weapons when I play.

Each weapon in MM3 is pretty good all in all, with Spark and Neelde losing a bit since they;'re so like the regular weapon.  Top was fun as a kid because it was so unique.  People never think to use it, but it does have it's uses.  Snake's weapon also has hidden potential.  This game was designed to be beaten with the arm cannon if possible, however, so only a few weapons get a chance to truly shine.  Still, each one has it's strong suit.  With the exception of Spark and Needle, each one is memorable.

MM9 (and brear in mind I watched only vids)
Plug - Most useless weapon in MM9.  Has some uses, but mostly useless.
Hornet - Nice for average players to get powerups.  Wins for that.
Concrete - I don't see myself actually using this weapon much.  However, speedruns show this weapon as having hidden win.
Splash - Powerful and broken, but shoots straight ahead.  Good for some key opponents, but I dunno how many others.  Still, pretty useful from what I've seen.
Galaxy - Key for those bombs in Splash's level and against the dragon and the Devils.  However, I see this used in only those places and not many others.  Still pretty useful.
Tornado - I don't see this as having any more or any less win than Gravity Hold.  Forced usefullness in Wily 1.  But not really useful.
Magma - Inafune says "finally, the charge is a gimmick again".  Useful against Hornetman, but I haven't seen it do things that Splash's weapon can't. 
Jewel - possibly the best weapon in the game.
win - 5/8  I've never seen Plug or Magma used too often.  Tonado is useful, but not overly much it seems to me. 

MM9 tries to mimick MM2 in that each weapon is useful in a specific situation.  It also purposefully breaks certain weapons.  Liek MM3, this leaves some weapons to be overshadowed.  However, I don't see magma or Plug as being especially useful.  Tornado seems good in a jam, but that's true of most special weapons in general.  If we stack them up, I think MM9 is mostly impressive because of the neat visual effects they put in to make the weapons more memorable (sucking the flames off the dragon).  Objectively speaking, if this came out right after MM8 I don't think people would be all that wowed by the weapons.

[Satoryu]

because you haven't played the game, it shows why you're underestimating some of MM9's weapons.

- Plug is a good rapid fire weapon when the pea shooter doesn't cut it, and when you need to conserve ammo.
- Concrete is not only a boss raper, but creates makeshift platforms, which are quicker to climb than using Rush Coil. oh, and you can do short little zips with them.
- Laser Trident should become your default when you get it. Goes through shields, and you get a ton of ammo.
- The BHB is incredibly useful to take out guys that are tricky to take out with other weaponry. the mine carts and totem poles are good examples.
- Tornado Blow is not only a Giga Attack, it extends you jump height.
- Mazooka up close does a lot of damage. a good way to take out the big hoppers.

and Plug Man's block puzzles were the easiest yet. it didn't take any memorization, and barely any trial and error. the first time, i was only tripped up in one place, and that was that cheap [tornado fang] you spot during the second? puzzle.

So, if I'm to understand this correctly, MM9 is better than MM1-6 because of it's lack of trial and error?

far from it. there's still a lot of trial and error in the game, maybe even more so than previous games. the first spike trap in Splash comes to mind.

[Gauntlet101010]

Yeah, I can only judge on what I've seen.  I still don't see Magma Bazooka as being something that gets used very often, however.  It has it's moments, but I see that weapon used the least in just about every run of the game I see. 

Maybe Plug has it's uses.  But I didn't count Bubble Lead as a "win" weapon, and Plug Ball is in the same veign. 

Tornado might boost your jump, but again, I haven't seen it used in that capacity either.  I've seen it used, mostly, as a deperation weapon and against magma.  And that's well and good, but the full-screen weapons tend to be limited like that.  It's usually pretty full by the end in the runs I've seen.