Topic: Rockman Online artwork and details.

[Hypershell]

Axl flying is something that Bass has already done with Treble Boost.

Alternate weapons are far from exclusive to him; Zero's done the same in every title that he has.  X COULD do buster attachments as well ala Command Mission.  I will admit, though, I myself am quite fond of Axl's G-Launcher.  I'm just saying from an objective standpoint that I think Zan has a point.

Except for this:

...copy chip. The latter of which likely will not be balanced well because it quite overshadows other characters in versatility.

That depends wholly on how it's adapted for gameplay.  As a matter of perception, ZXA throws us off due to copying other MegaMen.  If you were to take that setup, reduce it only to animaloids, and throw it into the same roster as X-series style X and Zero (VWS/Learning System included), then I'd imagine more than a few players would consider a traditional weapon system superior to a roster of forms that, while granting high versatility as a whole, come off as extremely limited individually.

It all depends on how it's played.  There's any number of ways to limit the Copy Chip without going to the extreme gimmick junk that X7/X8 do, rendering it near worthless.  But I'd imagine the greater issue at hand is the sheer redundancy of Copy Chip Hunters copying a Copy Chip Hunter.  There's no point to copying Axl except for Axl's core abilities, unless the current tech is somehow less flexible than his (granted that is very well conceivable if the current hunters are locked to a single copy for life, which might go a ways as to explaining copied Navigators).

Honestly, for them to have gone the whole "copying legendary heroes" route, while planning this game as an MMO originally, I was expecting more player types than 4-7.  I mean, considering the abundance we've already had in single-player games like ZXA and PU...

[Aresian]

Bass needs attachments to fly.

Wasn't counting Zero into the mix, as this was mostly just a relevance between the shooting characters. Why?

Because of common sense. RPG common sense that is. Zero is the melee character obviously, Duo could be considered a tank/monk type. Cinnamon is the OBVIOUS healer.

You see what I'm getting at here? X takes up the obvious Megaman position. Having Bass or Protoman is POINTLESS because that spot is already taken. Axl however, has non-attachment based attributes and readily used factors that make it obvious that he could fit in a variety of other roles, unlike the lack of versatility that is the other two candidates. It really is an irrefutable point when you don't bring in unrelated material into the discussion. Such as Zero's weapon use. That just goes under how Zero has multiple melee weapons... which a melee fighter would need. To do melee fighting.

Axl however could use different kinds of guns, be more of a long range fighter strictly. Or who knows, like stated, something involving the Copy Chip, with the guns as an obvious main weapon. That is my point.

[OBJECTION MAN]

Honestly, for them to have gone the whole "copying legendary heroes" route

<_<

Everyone is playing as Axl, A-Trans'd into a legendary hero.

*dodges brick*

[Align]

I don't really see how Bass is a clone of Megaman any more than Axl is of X. You do know that Bass has the rapid-fire capabilities of Axl as well, right? They play quite differently in Megaman & Bass.

[Aresian]

You weren't paying attention obviously. Yes, I'm aware of Bass' whole rapid fire buster deal. However, it goes into more than just gameplay. (even though Axl still plays noticeably differently than X as opposed to Bass just being a better Megaman)

I'm also marking off of their abilities both in-game and out of the game. The fact that Axl is more his own existence with his own technologies, potentials and extras that set him apart from X. Where as, Bass was literally constructed to be an equal challenge to Megaman. (or superior, if you ask Wily when he made him) However, all Bass literally has everything Megaman has. A support unit that he can combine with, a weapon copy system, buster and so on.

X has all those traditional things, minus a support unit obviously. He has the armor system instead.

Axl has access to a variety of weapons to compensate for a lack of buster-used weapon copy system. He has hover jets, wings that can extend and maybe be used for gliding and a copy system.

Hmm. If you step out of your understanding of X7 and X8 and take the picture for what it is, you can see that Axl has more potential for a character type in a MORPG as opposed to Bass or Protoman.

End of discussion, there really is nothing left to be said on my part. This post should sum up what I have to say.

[Hypershell]

Bass needs attachments to fly.

It's an attachment which he's had since the birth of the character.  How often do you see Bass without Treble?  That is every bit as valid as any non-standard weapon used by Axl.

Wasn't counting Zero into the mix, as this was mostly just a relevance between the shooting characters. Why?

Because of common sense. RPG common sense that is. Zero is the melee character obviously, Duo could be considered a tank/monk type. Cinnamon is the OBVIOUS healer.

I only compared Zero to Axl for the sake of noting that Axl has no exclusive rights to the use of varying weapons.

But if you must, forget Zero, because X did it in Command Mission.  Between the Gatling Buster and the X-Collider, the game showed a lot of potential for varying arm attachments to mix up his attacks.  And isn't it "RPG common sense" that all characters should have varying equipment in the first place?  You're attacking your own point with that.

You see what I'm getting at here? X takes up the obvious Megaman position. Having Bass or Protoman is POINTLESS because that spot is already taken. Axl however, has non-attachment based attributes and readily used factors that make it obvious that he could fit in a variety of other roles, unlike the lack of versatility that is the other two candidates. It really is an irrefutable point when you don't bring in unrelated material into the discussion.

Varying weapons is easily refutable to anyone familiar with Command Mission, and I said all I had to on the Copy Chip in my last post.  Whether or not it's viable as a gameplay addition really depends on what direction they're going with the current hunters' copy abilities.

I would also stand by Zan's previous post of a visual difference going a long way.  Seriously, in a multiplayer game is it really necessary that all our buster players HAVE to look like X?

Such as Zero's weapon use. That just goes under how Zero has multiple melee weapons... which a melee fighter would need. To do melee fighting.

Irrelevant.  Melee combat in and of itself by no means constitutes a more valid reason for alternate weapons than distance combat.

Axl however could use different kinds of guns, be more of a long range fighter strictly. Or who knows, like stated, something involving the Copy Chip, with the guns as an obvious main weapon. That is my point.

Barring the Copy Chip, which is questionable under the game's premise, I have to agree that there's nothing there that X couldn't do.  Not that I don't want to see Axl in there, I do.  But I do not see how "clone logic" can be used to favor him over Bass.  The fact is, in gameplay, Axl is the X-series Bass.  If you're going to argue "possibilities", then you need to offer that same leeway to all characters on the table.  To do otherwise is simply playing favorites.

[Aresian]

And yet somehow, I see Busters as plasma oriented weapons, not sniper rifles (even though he had a range amplifying weapon in Command Missions), Gernade Rifles, Flame Throwers... you get my point? It's more than just "lol X has multiple weapon ATTACHMENTS on his arm" so to speak.

Oh well. I've said my part and I stand by it. Treble is still an attachment by the way. He ATTACHES himself to Bass. Then Bass can fly. Attachment.

Yeah.

Ciao.

NOTE: Yes, they will all be exacts outside of how we play/equip/level our characters. Why do I say this? Because if you play any MORPGs like Grand Chase or what have you, you pick a CHARACTER and play that character.

[Hypershell]

Oh well. I've said my part and I stand by it. Treble is still an attachment by the way. He ATTACHES himself to Bass. Then Bass can fly. Attachment.

I don't believe I ever denied that.  But you have yet to explain how an attachment somehow invalidates itself as an ability, much less when it has long been established as a recurring standard power-up for the character.

The glaring contradiction in your argument is that Treble being an "attachment" doesn't make the Treble Boost ability any less Bass's.  Treble is Bass's support and noone else's.  Axl's varying weapons, on the other hand, are not his own, but are either purchased or found.  His own weapon is the pistols, and that's it.  By the same logic you could invalidate his Copy Chip: In the absence of expansions, the Copy Chip is worthless except for viral defense.

And yet somehow, I see Busters as plasma oriented weapons, not sniper rifles (even though he had a range amplifying weapon in Command Missions), Gernade Rifles, Flame Throwers... you get my point?

Double-standard.
Those weapons are not Axl's own, but are acquired as a matter of game progression.  To pit them against X, you must therefore pit them against X's equivalent to such progress, the Variable Weapon System.  Incidentally that supplied him with a flamethrower in his very first appearance.

[Flame]

Treble is a reoccurring power up much like Armors are for X. And incidentally, this game actually has armors for even characters such as Zero, Duo, and from what it seems, Protoman.

Characters who have never really gotten armors. (Outside of the Megamissions Zero armors)

[Aresian]

Treble is a reoccurring power up much like Armors are for X. And incidentally, this game actually has armors for even characters such as Zero, Duo, and from what it seems, Protoman.

Characters who have never really gotten armors. (Outside of the Megamissions Zero armors)

Those armors are consequence of it being an RPG not LIGHT made Armor Upgrades. 8|

God, you people.

Oh well, I'm done debating this. I'm standing by my statements. We'll know soon enough either way, how they're going to play this. So, [tornado fang] it.

[Flame]

Those armors are consequence of it being an RPG not LIGHT made Armor Upgrades. 8|

God, you people.

Oh well, I'm done debating this. I'm standing by my statements. We'll know soon enough either way, how they're going to play this. So, [tornado fang] it.

And Treble was made by Wily. Your point?

We also dont know how X or Zero's armors come about. Duo made his himself it seems, but we dont know bout the others

[Align]

Oh well, I'm done debating this. I'm standing by my statements.

Those are mutually exclusive.

Either prove you're right, stay silent and prove nothing, or gracefully admit you're wrong.

[Zan]

Because of common sense. RPG common sense that is. Zero is the melee character obviously, Duo could be considered a tank/monk type. Cinnamon is the OBVIOUS healer.

Even if those characters all fit a certain niche, why would we limit the visual variety of those? Why limit things to just having everyone play as one character with different armors? For example, we could be playing as Lifesavor using Cinnamon's gameplay, just as much as we could play as Rockman and Blues using X's gameplay, just as much as Axl and Forte can share the same gameplay.

Not taking advantage of said variety is not a decision based on player character gameplay, but much more one based on a need to return characters to their original antagonistic and support roles; having Forte return as a boss, having Blues become the mysterious ally once again. Not entirely unlike Zero's case, their promotion to player character has removed an aspect of what originally made them who they are.

[Aresian]

Those are mutually exclusive.

Either prove you're right, stay silent and prove nothing, or gracefully admit you're wrong.

No. I'll do as I please, I'm not limited to your choices. Like I said, I'm standing by what I've said. I still decree that my opinion is correct, I'm just choosing not to debate it any further. It's a waste of time, a circle jerk if you will. I'll wait for the game to prove my point right or wrong.

Even if those characters all fit a certain niche, why would we limit the visual variety of those? Why limit things to just having everyone play as one character with different armors? For example, we could be playing as Lifesavor using Cinnamon's gameplay, just as much as we could play as Rockman and Blues using X's gameplay, just as much as Axl and Forte can share the same gameplay.

Not taking advantage of said variety is not a decision based on player character gameplay, but much more one based on a need to return characters to their original antagonistic and support roles; having Forte return as a boss, having Blues become the mysterious ally once again. Not entirely unlike Zero's case, their promotion to player character has removed an aspect of what originally made them who they are.

That would be nice, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be that way. I'm just saying, if you know anything about these kinds of MORPGs, you'll know that there are generally two types in this area. Games where you make your own character with a class. And games where every character is a physical clone and representation of that class.

It isn't that you are playing a Melee Hunter, it is that you are playing the character Zero. And so is the other guy next to you. And the other person too. Though, someone else might be playing X.

That is to say, AGAIN reference Grand Chase. All Melee characters are Elesis. All Archers are Lire and so on and so forth.

What am I saying this over and over again for? Because no one is getting the point. My POINT is, that this is the style of game I'm EXPECTING. SPECULATING. When someone said "There will be a bunch of Zeros running around" they weren't kidding. You will play CLONES of characters, that you level up accordingly and probably distribute points and what have you.

So, until the company says otherwise, I believe this is the most accurate assumption in terms of how it'll work. That's all. Nothing else. Okay?

And Treble was made by Wily. Your point?

We also dont know how X or Zero's armors come about. Duo made his himself it seems, but we dont know bout the others

Pretty sure armor in THIS game will be provided by whatever faction/Hunter Base/Neo Arcrapia exists as opposed to Duo clones popping armor out of no where and X and Zero armies getting their armor from dead scientists.

But my point is th-- Naw... nevermind.

[Hypershell]

Hoo boy, we lost you on the train somewhere, and my apologies for the misunderstanding.  There's no "speculation" as to whether or not Bass and ProtoMan are playable; it's stated that they currently are not, despite appearances in artwork and trailer.  In discussing that possibility we are discussing merely a hypothetical scenario, which only wishful thinking dictates *MIGHT* yet happen as the game is still in development and less than halfway finished.  In arguing against that, you are arguing against its validity, not its likelihoood (it is already understood by those following RMO news that the likelihood is pretty low.).

Pretty sure armor in THIS game will be provided by whatever faction/Hunter Base/Neo Arcrapia exists as opposed to Duo clones popping armor out of no where and X and Zero armies getting their armor from dead scientists.

As old as this is getting, I feel compelled to point out that X getting armor from someone other than Light is nothing new.  That's been going on since Xtreme2 at the earliest; X5 at the latest.  Command Mission features three armors for him and one for Zero, the origins of such are never explained (though it is strongly implied that X's default "New Armor" is current tech due to the dash upgrade discussion).

Not taking advantage of said variety is not a decision based on player character gameplay, but much more one based on a need to return characters to their original antagonistic and support roles; having Forte return as a boss, having Blues become the mysterious ally once again. Not entirely unlike Zero's case, their promotion to player character has removed an aspect of what originally made them who they are.

Thing is, from what we've seen in the trailers, it's possible Rock might be in this boat as well (gameplay scenes show closeups of him attacking while Zero is clearly the selected player, in addition to his aiding X, from the sidelines, against AirMan in the anime trailer).  Maybe ProtoMan could be the "mysterious guy that nobody knows who's side he's on" as he was in 3-5, whereas Rock may be the "good guy on the sidelines" that ProtoMan became in 6-9.

I'm just wondering if the entire current playable Classic cast being NPCs isn't overdoing it.  That Duo may well be the only player character from that era is a bit of a letdown, but I'm still interested in seeing what they do with it.

[Align]

No. I'll do as I please, I'm not limited to your choices. Like I said, I'm standing by what I've said. I still decree that my opinion is correct, I'm just choosing not to debate it any further. It's a waste of time, a circle jerk if you will.

You can certainly just keep saying you're right without bothering to further your point if you want, but it's not significantly different from the staying silent option. Also those weren't meant as commands, just a list of options.
As for circle jerk, well... that's when everyone agrees on something, not arguing about it. Currently you seem to be having a different conversation than what the rest of us are seeing.

[The Great Gonzo]

I still decree that my opinion is correct,

Opinions are subjective.

Kinda pointless to be saying on the Internet, but still.

I'm just wondering if the entire current playable Classic cast being NPCs isn't overdoing it.  That Duo may well be the only player character from that era is a bit of a letdown, but I'm still interested in seeing what they do with it.

It's hardly overdoing it if it means no roving gangs of Airmen. D: I'm hoping that something interesting comes out of this, too, and that no one shows up just to hand over their data, say a few words, and then drop dead. (If "no one" turns out to be Megaman, I'd have to break something)

[Aresian]

@Hypershell: Yeah, I guess maybe it is from the way I talk or how I word things, but obviously my direction of point is different than everyone else present. Story of my life really. It seems like people were of the persuasion that it would make perfect sense for Bass and Protoman to be playable characters. I'll say one more time what my point was, for clarification.

I don't think (key words, don't think) Bass and Protoman will be playable because of the RPG quota. The quota that exists in my little head (and various RPGS, MORPGS and MMORPGS) indicates that they will sooner fill specific roles with the limited character slots they have left. Going old school on you, traditionally there is a DPS Melee, Tank, Healer, Magic Attacker, Ranged Physical, Thief and so on. Because of this and the fact they said they are only adding so many more characters... well, it should be self explanatory at this point.

In case it isn't (and no, I'm not being an ass, it just seems like others have missed my point) Bass and Protoman wouldn't fill this quota for not being THAT much different from X. X probably already fills... hmm, some kinda cross between Ranged Physical and DPS Melee. Really, I'm not too sure how to rate him, someone else can do that. Zero would be DPS Melee strictly. I'm pretty sure Duo is Tank. If he isn't someone is smoking good stuff, since he's the biggest, baddest guy I know that fits that role outside of [tornado fang]ing General. Healer? Need I go any further than Cinnamon.

OK. So... I hope I didn't lose anyone there. My point/opinion/view of the game comes from the information provided at this point, that is all. I don't have any intention of being hopeful of a better situation, since I know how these things go. They aren't going to put the time and effort into making full-blown character creation or make gender swaps of specific classes. (I.E. for Healer you have Lifesaver and Cinnamon or for X-style you have X and Alia) It won't happen, pretty sure.


@Others: *shrugs* Opinions ARE subjective. I just want the logical points in my opinion to at least be understood, since it seemed like no one was understanding that. And uh... don't really care what Align said at this point. Reached that point by now.


NOTE: X looks like AOE, basically the equivalent of a Mage. Just another side note I guess.

[Zan]

In case it isn't (and no, I'm not being an ass, it just seems like others have missed my point) Bass and Protoman wouldn't fill this quota for not being THAT much different from X. X probably already fills... hmm, some kinda cross between Ranged Physical and DPS Melee. Really, I'm not too sure how to rate him, someone else can do that. Zero would be DPS Melee strictly. I'm pretty sure Duo is Tank. If he isn't someone is smoking good stuff, since he's the biggest, baddest guy I know that fits that role outside of [tornado fang]ing General. Healer? Need I go any further than Cinnamon.

That's understandable, but comparing Forte and Axl in a sidescrolling shooter environment, what other niche than "multidirectional rapid fire" exists? If anything, Axl would be more preferred as a player character to go with X and Zero, and also because unlike Forte, he's never been a boss.

The "Tank" should have been Signas, though!

[Aresian]

That's understandable, but comparing Forte and Axl in a sidescrolling shooter environment, what other niche than "multidirectional rapid fire" exists? If anything, Axl would be more preferred as a player character to go with X and Zero, and also because unlike Forte, he's never been a boss.

The "Tank" should have been Signas, though!

OK, I don't mind the rest. Just glad it is understandable now. Though... Signas. Huh, if he wasn't so useless, I might've thought he might fit that place marker. And in retrospect, he's big enough, and cool looking enough. Sure, why not. I'd play Signas. If Duo wasn't in it, I'd say Massimo myself. He's major Tank material.

[Gaia]

The "Tank" should have been Signas, though!

Having a certain ancient cannon in your arsenal would be quite interesting.. yeees..

[Zan]

Having a certain ancient cannon in your arsenal would be quite interesting.. yeees..

Blastoff!! *repeat from multiple angles*

If Duo wasn't in it, I'd say Massimo myself. He's major Tank material.

Ah yes, Massimo too, completely forgot about him. Since Cinnamon is in, he would have been the preferred choice. As a matter of fact, I'd also like to see Marino included in a more speedster/agility type role as well. If they can find a way to include even Cinnamon with a combative role in a sidescroller, the entire Command Mission team should be in.

[Hypershell]

I was wondering about that.  The primary "hurdle" in including Classic characters in X-style side-scrolling is the use of dashing and wall-kicking as standard mechanics.  Duo I can sort of excuse, since he's a space-alien robot who already pulled his own VWS out of nowhere, but even though Cinnamon's an X-series character she falls into that same boat.  She always runs, never dashes, and pretty clearly wasn't built to be athletic.  So how is she going to work with that?

Yep, we needs us some more gameplay footage...

the limited character slots they have left.

I get what you're saying, but such a barrier is not set in stone.  And that it even exists is kind of a letdown for me, as I believe I mentioned somewhere earlier.  If we've had 16 distinct player types in ZX Advent, a MegaMan platformer, then we should not be limited to "maybe 7 or 8" in what was originally planned to be a MegaMan MMO.

[Aresian]

I'm wondering about that.  The primary "hurdle" in including Classic characters in X-style side-scrolling is the use of dashing and wall-kicking as standard mechanics.  Duo I can sort of excuse, since he's a space-alien robot who already pulled his own VWS out of nowhere, but even though Cinnamon's an X-series character she falls into that same boat.  She always runs, never dashes, and pretty clearly wasn't built to be athletic.  So how is she going to work with that?

Yep, we needs us some more gameplay footage...

Maybe Cinnamon can Fly/Hover with her wings?

Or maybe she CAN dash now or could always dash but it was never necessary? But it is a point against the Classic characters. Bass could dash, but not wall jump. Duo is a beast, so I won't worry about him. He can do whatever he wants.

Ah yes, Massimo too, completely forgot about him. Since Cinnamon is in, he would have been the preferred choice. As a matter of fact, I'd also like to see Marino included in a more speedster/agility type role as well. If they can find a way to include even Cinnamon with a combative role in a sidescroller, the entire Command Mission team should be in.

Yeah, I stated Marino a few pages back due to her Thief/Ninja-esque style. She fits that role very well. I dunno if Massimo will make it in still, because of Duo... but it'd be nice. They just fit the same character type from an RPG perspective. Of course, idealistically, we could just get them both in. Or Massimo could play the Heavy Damage Dealer role that is in some RPGs as opposed to Tank. Or maybe Duo could be more akin to a Monk than a Tank and Massimo could take Tank.

Getting ahead of myself though, I guess. Hopefully we'll get some answers as to who else is added soon.

[Hypershell]

Maybe Cinnamon can Fly/Hover with her wings?

Or maybe she CAN dash now or could always dash but it was never necessary? But it is a point against the Classic characters. Bass could dash, but not wall jump. Duo is a beast, so I won't worry about him. He can do whatever he wants.

Her "wings" are her hair, that's not at all believable.  And this is saying a lot from fans who swallow cyber-elves.

All Classic-characters were shown to wall-kick in the arcade games, they simply can't wall-climb.  They could do something like Buckfire's Canyon Jump without raising too many eyebrows.