Topic: Zero turned good by the Sigma Virus

[Hypershell]

Hoo boy, time for Hyper to play a lot of catch-up...

But Omega is Dr. Vile's slave? Vile succeeded where Wily failed?

More like both have their own methods, parallel branches along the same tree.  Recall, if you will, that even without Dark Elf (one of many Sigma Virus derivatives), Omega still resonates the same energy signature as Dark Elf.

I'm not convinced that Wily is "failing" with Zero.  He aptly demonstrated in X6 (and is further implied in X4) that if he wanted to capture Zero, nothing's stopping him.  For some reason or another, it seems to me that he wants to take a more passive role.

After all, we just established that losing the virus after awakening returns him to hunter state.

In what way does getting one's ass kicked by X constitute losing the virus?  We know from Alia that "killed" qualifies under that, but not so with merely "beaten".

That scene always felt out of character to me - remorse isn't like Wily, and neither is gratitude - so maybe it's just that the idea of the whole Roboenza episode being a test appeals to me..

Personally, I'm still wide open to holding the Quint future as valid (Wily sincerely reforms, then re-evaluates his life after encountering his past evil self and betraying Rock).  If such were the case, it would only be natural for Classic Wily to be a bit more compassionate than X-series Wily.  I will admit that 10's ending was unexpected, though.

The question of what Wily is trying to accomplish in 21XX seems to be everlasting.  While I believe he's going less the world domination route and focusing more on his personal rivalry, it is simply my own personal speculation, and none of the recent info seems to impact it too much.

Sigma finding Zero's evil form incomplete is a poor translation thing.

Man, you really can't trust X5's translations, huh?  Now you have me wondering how Zero responds to the Light capsules.

I can't be stressed enough that the change to good wasn't planned by Wily.

I'm not convinced of that.  It's possible that the Hunter stage was intentional even if Wily's ultimate end for Zero turns out to be evil, as a "learning process" to aid Zero's growth.  Zero, like X, learns from experience in battle; what better way to ensure X does not challenge Zero prematurely than for Zero to gain experience on X's side?  Note that Learning System attacks have appeared as part of Omega's arsenal, as well as seemingly being the base from which several of Awakened Zero's attacks are derived.

I like how you tried to explain such specifics as "during missions." I think you might be on to something with the damage to Zero's systems. If a defensive breach not only can promote infection, but further damage can actually promote the virus leaving his systems, the importance of Sigma's knockout punch can be highlighted in relation to Zero's reversion to hunter state in X2 and X5.

Might also go a ways to explaining how nobody at Hunter Base noticed.  The Hunters have been aware of the virus since X3 and have been researching it since X5 at the absolute latest.  While it's true that the virus can often defy their analysis, especially with Zero, one does have to wonder how nothing even remotely suspicious (sans antivirus reactions) ever turned up while Zero was "chilling" at home.  Even if Zero himself showed no reaction wouldn't they notice if viral infections were following the same trail as him?  One only continues to raise eyebrows at that with X8's talks of the Hunters testing New Gen viral immunity.

Basically, if Zero is only spreading the virus in areas that are already combat zones to begin with, it would explain a lot.  Would fit nicely with my above question about him reverting at defeat, as well.  It's still conjecture, but it does fit nicely.

But then we arrive at the same question, to what end?  If the Hunter personna was established as permanent, others should be able to be written as permanent as well.  If it is indeed the ideal state for Zero to learn new abilities, then that would lend more credit to such a fall-back upon defeat as being intentional.

If they had just let those first mavericks be the results of various chip errors or *gasp* free will itself, there wouldn't be a problem here... but alas.

I personally would really like to know what kind of chip error-to-virus ratio we're dealing with in X1.  In playing MHX and re-examining The Day Of Sigma, the emphasis I'm seeing on X's worrying is that first-gen Reploids, in general, tend to be more ruthless than X is (X's compassion is always his defining trait, but X1 'roids strike me as less "human" in personality than later characters).  When you remove sympathy for others, it's not a small leap to think of disposing the weak to advance the superior race, or "sacrifice for evolution" is perfectly acceptable.

But having the majority of Irregulars caused by defected thought circuits removes the special aspect from VAVA.

I think the MHX statement of "someone who can go Maverick of their own accord" references Sigma's position as a leader as much as it does viral manipulation.  Playing through MHX, I took notice that virtually nobody seems to actually believe in Sigma's cause.  The bosses are mostly following Sigma for the sake of following their leader (Spark Mandrill, Armored Armadillo), occasionally reaping some personal benefits (Chill Penguin, Launch Octopus).  Flame Mammoth is basically Vile on a leash.  Then there's Storm Eagle and Sting Chameleon who are seemingly being forced.  Boomer Kuwanger is about the only one who actually thinks about what's going on, and he's more centered on X's combat abilities than anything else.

Vile is unique in that he, like Sigma, was willing to challenge the status of the world.  The others who had gone Maverick did so only by Sigma's manipulation, whether the virus was or was not part of that manipulation is irrelevant.  One way or the other they would never have rebelled without Sigma.  With Vile, however, Sigma merely turned him loose and let him do as he pleased.

Probably. They didn't supply a picture showing exactly what they meant in the book. Zero's insides don't look quite the same way when shown in X5, but he still seems to have a upper chest gem and a head gem underneath, so I imagine the vague idea holds true. That page is the only place that ever talks about them, so far as I know.

I feel compelled to point out that X4's designs are identical to those of the armor kit figures, which are the same between X and Zero (barring faces and chest gem colors).  In X5 they probably felt the need to offer something a little more unique.

[Mirby]

Boomer Kuwanger is about the only one who actually thinks about what's going on, and he's more centered on X's combat abilities than anything else.

See? Not only does his stage have badass music, but he's pretty intelligent himself.

[Saber]

See? Not only does his stage have badass music, but he's pretty intelligent himself.

Kuwanger is described in the IHX manual as a pretty rational guy who thought that joining Sigma's cause was the only logical choice, ignoring whether it's right or wrong. Furthermore, he is noted for being very effective when it comes to gathering and evaluating combat data.

[Hypershell]

He must be.  He's about the only Maverick besides Sigma who took notice that there is more to X than a direct specs comparison.  That's something most baddies didn't get through their skulls even as late as X3.

[Flame]

Isnt the smart Kuwanger angle something that was also done by Iwamoto? Hell, Iwamoto Kuwanger went as far as to upload his brain into a supercomputer in the tower, with some sort of connection wirelessly to his body

[Zan]

More like both have their own methods, parallel branches along the same tree.  Recall, if you will, that even without Dark Elf (one of many Sigma Virus derivatives), Omega still resonates the same energy signature as Dark Elf.

I'm not convinced that Wily is "failing" with Zero.  He aptly demonstrated in X6 (and is further implied in X4) that if he wanted to capture Zero, nothing's stopping him.  For some reason or another, it seems to me that he wants to take a more passive role.

But he contained a flaw in his cognitive program that made him violent and unwilling to obey instructions, so Dr. Wily himself sealed Zero in a capsule.

Zero contained a flaw in his cognitive program for which Wily sealed him. That is Wily at the beginning failing to properly complete Zero's cognitive program. Wily has found a way around that with X2 and X5, but initially he seemingly didn't. Dr. Vile on the other hand, has no problem reprogramming a virusless Zero to become his slave. Which is rather surprising with Wily's own initial problems, and the mental instability of such copies as the Zero Nightmare. But then, we do not know the mental state of X2's copy, and TvC's Zero vs Zero battle also seemingly has both Zeros equally sane.

In what way does getting one's ass kicked by X constitute losing the virus?  We know from Alia that "killed" qualifies under that, but not so with merely "beaten".

Then it begs the question of how we describe Techno's, Doppler's and Gate's return to normalcy after getting beat up by X. But, maybe Zero works completely different than regular Repliroids? After all, the piece of DNA Gate found was spreading the virus like crazy.

Iwamoto's X2 Zero vs X scenario had X punching out a Sigma Virus chip within Zero's head lens (Z-brain?)  and so returning Zero to normalcy. This scenario works very nicely with what we see in X2 the game. But compared to X5, in which we can't really establish a loss of the virus by beating up Zero, maybe we should at a different reason for his suddenly sacrificing himself for X? Was that Hunter Zero, or actually the awakened Zero giving up his life? More on that a few quotes below.

I'm not convinced of that.

Zero and Sigma's change in allegiance represents "circumstances can change anything". Ergo, not as planned. There may be some planned aspect that worked toward it, but it was not intended in that way, at that time, with those results.

Might also go a ways to explaining how nobody at Hunter Base noticed. 

I just wonder what that means for the poor smuck that has to repair the virus spreading damaged Zero. Considering the difficulty of that, maybe the human Cain did it all the time?

If the Hunter personna was established as permanent, others should be able to be written as permanent as well.  If it is indeed the ideal state for Zero to learn new abilities, then that would lend more credit to such a fall-back upon defeat as being intentional.

Zero's Hunter Person might be "ideal", but its lack of order input would not be. Wily has no control over this Zero, but he certainly seems eager in keeping that brain chip. Inafune specifies that change to good as circumstance; Zero should still remain evil. But the evil Zero's personality isn't really that different from the Hunter Zero; only the person that is his reason for fighting has changed. Which goes a long way to explaining how X5's awakened Zero actually sacrificed himself for X; fighting for X and fighting for Wily. With Sigma trying to kill X with the battle of destiny yet incomplete, what is best for both X and Wily coincide. Sigma himself threatened Wily's rivalry then and there.

I took notice that virtually nobody seems to actually believe in Sigma's cause.

Spark Mandriller?

[Saber]

Spark Mandriller?

Mandriller does not necessarily have to believe in Sigma's cause. He merely notes that it might as well be X who's in the wrong. And besides, Mandriller himself is not the brightest light in the sky.

SPARK MANDRILLER: Do you think Commander Sigma is insane, X?
X: He's no commander. Not anymore. He's nothing but a Maverick now.
SPARK MANDRILLER: Now, X... You've never thought that maybe Sigma was right and
you were wrong?
X: ...
SPARK MANDRILLER: I don't like thinking either... Maybe we can find the answer
together... in battle!

[Hypershell]

Mandrill expresses what is at best a gut instinct.  He clearly doesn't want to think too hard about it.

Zero contained a flaw in his cognitive program for which Wily sealed him. That is Wily at the beginning failing to properly complete Zero's cognitive program. Wily has found a way around that with X2 and X5, but initially he seemingly didn't. Dr. Vile on the other hand, has no problem reprogramming a virusless Zero to become his slave. Which is rather surprising with Wily's own initial problems, and the mental instability of such copies as the Zero Nightmare. But then, we do not know the mental state of X2's copy, and TvC's Zero vs Zero battle also seemingly has both Zeros equally sane.

To be fair Weil is working much later on top of at least 50 years of dedicated Zero/virus research, and having an example in the pre-existing Hunter Zero to follow.  Also, as I mentioned earlier, one can still get a loose virus derivative to Omega in the form of Dark Elf; whether she's present or not Omega does share similarities to her that Copy Zero does not.  I don't think such an oddity is to be dismissed.

In light of all that I think it's completely impossible to say that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.  Wily first of all did not fail, he took time, and how much time is unclear (especially in light of the 1XX years ago label); and Weil had a mountain of research and a previous example to follow.  Don't underestimate the progression of modern tech in understanding X and Zero during Elf Wars, either; by XCM some unseen entity has outdone Light as far as Zero enhancements go.

Asking how Weil tamed the God of Destruction is like asking how he wound up with Zero's registry number.  He had the thing encapsulated for half a century, he's bound to actually learn something.

Zero and Sigma's change in allegiance represents "circumstances can change anything". Ergo, not as planned. There may be some planned aspect that worked toward it, but it was not intended in that way, at that time, with those results.

There is a TREMENDOUS amount of personal interpretation in that statement.  Not planned, or not expected?  By who?  The context of Inafune's statement in no way whatsoever references Wily's plans or expectations.  Suppose for the sake of argument that it was intentional; wouldn't Cain and the Hunters learn a thing or two about how "circumstances can change anything"?  Wouldn't we?

"Circumstances" can mean anything.  It simply says that one event influences another, it does not specify intent, much less by who.  Change happened, that is fact.  Whether it was intentional, or how much was, cannot be derived from Inafune's statement.  It simply says that other factors caused Zero and Sigma to come out of their fight in a different condition than they had entered.  We knew that already.

Wily has no control over this Zero, but he certainly seems eager in keeping that brain chip.

That's what timed force fields and quite possibly W-headaches are for.  For whatever degree of control you're implying that Wily is after, he isn't using the methods available to him very often.

Inafune specifies that change to good as circumstance

cir·cum·stance
–noun
1.
a condition, detail, part, or attribute, with respect to time, place, manner,agent, etc., that accompanies, determines, or modifies a fact or event; a modifying or influencing factor: Do not judge his behavior without considering every circumstance.

Explain to me how outside, unseen manipulation does not qualify as circumstance.

Which goes a long way to explaining how X5's awakened Zero actually sacrificed himself for X; fighting for X and fighting for Wily. With Sigma trying to kill X with the battle of destiny yet incomplete, what is best for both X and Wily coincide. Sigma himself threatened Wily's rivalry then and there.

Zero: ...No, I won't allow you to! I know everything you're trying to
do!
??: Then, be a good boy and just die!
(Zero is hit with the blast intended for X.)
Zero: ...Uh, Uwaaaaa! ...X...X... Please survive...! ...Survive! X...
Live...for...me...


It's a pretty long limb to go out on, I'd say.  Seems a bit unusually sentimental for Awakened Zero to beg for X's survival during/after the attack.  Furthermore, you're suggesting the personna was maintained but without the power to stand up to Sigma?  I'm not sure about that one.

[Zan]

Explain to me how outside, unseen manipulation does not qualify as circumstance.

Even when added with statements such as "nothing is absolute", "created to be an evil Repliroid." "Unable to control him." Wily wanted to control an evil Zero, not create a good Zero. Inafune's statement is heavily about changing what should not have been changed; such as the virtuous Hunter Sigma becoming an evil Irregular. That meaning is lost if its Wily that deliberately changed Zero to good.

In light of all that I think it's completely impossible to say that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.

The point is that we must give more credit for his creation of Omega. If we acknowledge Inti's scenario of something of the original Zero still remaining in the body and Vile using that to create Omega as a clear cut possibility. Vile seemingly accomplished something what troubled even Wily. To bend that uncontrollably violent god of destruction to his will is certainly an extraordinary feat.

That's what timed force fields and quite possibly W-headaches are for.  For whatever degree of control you're implying that Wily is after, he isn't using the methods available to him very often.

It's nothing new that Wily's been gloating over Zero's victories regardless of that Zero being good or evil. But Wily's goal is still ultimately that evil Zero for the sake of the destined battle with X.  Wily may be taking his time NOW. But from the very beginning, the battle with X was not something Zero was ill-equipped for.

Remember that Hunter Zero was originally a superior to X, before they became partners of equal standing on the battlefield. For the sake of his battle with X; Zero did not originally need more power. It's only in subsequent titles that there exist some form of competition in growth between X and Zero, which Wily seemingly witnesses with great interest in the hopes that his Zero comes out on top where X failed.

It's a pretty long limb to go out on, I'd say.  Seems a bit unusually sentimental for Awakened Zero to beg for X's survival during/after the attack.  Furthermore, you're suggesting the personna was maintained but without the power to stand up to Sigma?  I'm not sure about that one.

Then you're back to square one; a loss of the virus and its corruptive effects is witnessed by X beating up Zero.

Though, I'm not sure you can entirely say it's a different persona of Zero. The difference between Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero is something a bit more subtle, I think.

[Mirby]

I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.

[Saber]

I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.

The whole rank thing is kinda messed up in later games. I recall that X was at one point stated to be the same rank as Zero, but because of his hesitation him battle, his actual combat results have earned him only at B-rank when he could be SA. I believe that was X7. In X8, X, Zero and Axl are all Class A Hunters (VAVA is stated to have been a former Class A Hunter), while in Command Mission, they are all S class Hunters.

[Mirby]

I was talking X4 and X5 when it explicitly states it in the character select screen.

[Zan]

I've seen nothing stating X's rank in X8. As far as I'm concerned, unless otherwise said it's still B.

But X's rank means nothing to his combat skills.

[Mirby]

Yeah, in the games, it's not really a functional indicator of skill. You could just go to a place with easy enemies that spawn endlessly and kill a lot of them, and your rank goes up.

Still, I thought it might be relevant.

[OBJECTION MAN]

I cant help but to think in XCM that X was also called an S rank hunter, along with Zero and Axl. Maybe I'm imagining things.

[Zan]

I cant help but to think in XCM that X was also called an S rank hunter, along with Zero and Axl. Maybe I'm imagining things.

Yes, in XCM, all three are S-class Hunters.

[Flame]

Then you're back to square one; a loss of the virus and its corruptive effects is witnessed by X beating up Zero.

Though, I'm not sure you can entirely say it's a different persona of Zero. The difference between Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero is something a bit more subtle, I think.

its a stretch, but considering that X has perfect Virus countermeasures... Could it be possible, that, maybe his weapons have a purifying property to them? or maybe in the same way that Zero radiates Virus, X... I dunno, has like and aura around him that negates such things?

[Align]

I wouldn't say perfect, he does take damage from a sufficiently high dose.

[Hypershell]

Well, there IS such a thing as viral vaccines being applied to weapons.  It's been done since X3.  But in X5, it's manifested in gameplay as a Power-Up Part for X (and Zero's black armor).  On his own, X is unable to damage the virus.

The aura shpiel would be more plausible, but yeah, it's a hell of a stretch.  Such an idea does have me curious about how often "deathbed normalcy" would occur with other Hunters, but sadly gameplay mechanics do not allow us to compare that.

Even when added with statements such as "nothing is absolute", "created to be an evil Repliroid." "Unable to control him." Wily wanted to control an evil Zero, not create a good Zero. Inafune's statement is heavily about changing what should not have been changed; such as the virtuous Hunter Sigma becoming an evil Irregular. That meaning is lost if its Wily that deliberately changed Zero to good.

It's still very much your own personal interpretation.  Your "added with" bits, save for the first, are out of context to the statement you're arguing for.

4) What was the inspiration for Sigma?

KI: Some people think he might have been inspired by Sagat from Street Fighter because of his look, but that's not actually the case.  Sigma and Zero basically represent the idea that nothing is absolute. Sigma was a powerful leader of the Maverick Hunters but after Zero passed the virus to him, his allegiance changed.  Circumstances can change anything, and nothing is absolute.

Here is where "circumstances can change anything" comes from.  Wily is not part of that.  Hell, strictly speaking, Zero's allegiance isn't even part of that.  The question is about Sigma, and whether you bring Zero's allegiance up or not, his relation to Sigma going Maverick, and thus circumstances changing anything, still holds.

But even if we relate that statement to Zero, then as I said earlier, the unknown plans of a background character can easily qualify as circumstance.  You only arrive at the assumption you do by relating "change" to Wily's point of view (as opposed to the Hunters, the player, or the nameless casual observer), despite the fact that Wily's point of view means jack in relation to Sigma.

There's plenty of room for doubt.  But given how adamant you are about this, I'll refrain from attempting to refute anything further from your post that requires, from my point of view anyway, first breaking that assumption.  Marshmallow or somebody else can chime in if they want to present a different angle.

The point is that we must give more credit for his creation of Omega. If we acknowledge Inti's scenario of something of the original Zero still remaining in the body and Vile using that to create Omega as a clear cut possibility.

The possibility, and a high one at that, is old news, as it's an argument that Marshmallow had previously pursued with me quite aggressively, citing previous interviews from Inti. (I wasn't so much arguing against it as I was against equating Omega's and Awakened Zero's personalities, but that's beside the point).

Remember that Hunter Zero was originally a superior to X, before they became partners of equal standing on the battlefield. For the sake of his battle with X; Zero did not originally need more power. It's only in subsequent titles that there exist some form of competition in growth between X and Zero, which Wily seemingly witnesses with great interest in the hopes that his Zero comes out on top where X failed.

Remember also that a good Zero turned evil could easily pick up the opportunity to stab X in the back, something that only Nightmare Zero ever attempted.  Wily is, seemingly, interested in proving superiority to X, not destroying at all costs.  To that end, is it that far a stretch to allow X to grow, or at least overcome his initial hesitation, before throwing down the gauntlet?  Sigma did the same, after all.

It all depends on how much we're banking on taking over the world versus how much we're banking on Wily's rivalry.  Given AZ's disregard for the Mavericks, I have always leaned towards the latter.

I'm thinking from a gameplay standpoint in the later X games, where Zero is always a higher hunter rank (SA, I think) than X (who is B), which to me seems like it might point out the difference in strength. If this isn't important, feel free to disregard it.

X is ranked as a B-Class Hunter due to his hesitation and general distaste for combat.  He is power-wise very well above what one expects of such a rank.  Even in MHX, Kuwanger makes note of that.

Yeah, in the games, it's not really a functional indicator of skill. You could just go to a place with easy enemies that spawn endlessly and kill a lot of them, and your rank goes up.

Actually, in X5, that would cause your rank to plummet.  Makes little sense considering X5 made a huge point of X's disliking combat and Zero's ruthless nature on missions causing Zero to be ranked higher, but that's the way it is.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, the only indicator of skill is who's standing when it's all over.  Ranking in the games is generally about whatever play style the creators feel like endorsing.

[Mirby]

That last part there is also part of what I was trying to convey. Honestly, I just pulled that from T&T's X7 guide from the Nov 03 issue.

[rock_volnutt2010]

i was wondering when i play X5 the sigma virus and the zero virus about that when i choose X he gets his life energy drain and zero his life energy doesn't how does it make it difference to it?

[Flame]

Im not sure what your asking... But with Zero, the virus is beneficial to him. it purifies him, and thus makes him invincible upon infection.

X has the perfect Virus countermeasures, so the Virus cannot corrupt his heart like other reploids. However, since the virus in X5 are concentrated energy bodies, they still do damage to him as malignant energy.

[rock_volnutt2010]

oh i get it now. still the zero virus is more dangerous and agressive. did the zero virus come from the sigma virus and the colony eurasia virus combined together?

[Flame]

Bingo!

[TheOnly]

I always thought the Zero virus was just Zero virus, they just changed names like example, Zero virus got into Sigma, now its the Sigma virus, the virus go into the colonly and now the colony has its own virus. Don't know that made since to you fellow members. I also want to add in that the Nightmare Zero jig was just a failed attemped to get Zero's DNA since the DNA that Gate got was only so much that he could do with it. Correct me if am wrong but that's what I understood.