The Marvel vs. Capcom 3 Topic (ITS MAHVEL 3 BAYBEE)

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #175 on: April 25, 2010, 12:08:26 AM
Well there's no good reason for string inputs for regular combos, either.
It serves no logical purpose.

Hyper combos, different story. Those would take considerable doing on the part of the superheroes and should stay string input with a one-button option that loses attack power/numbers of hits.



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #176 on: April 25, 2010, 12:53:58 AM
Well there's no good reason for string inputs for regular combos, either.
It serves no logical purpose.

Ummm...there's plenty of logic. A good combination-oriented system in a fighting game, especially, is supposed to be a free-form system that allows the user to discover combos on their own. In that light, it's simply on the player to discover how to use the system to get results. 

Ever since the emergence of "combos", which occurred in the midst of SF2's development, it has since gone on to become a fundamental aspect that makes fighting games what they are. "Dial-a-combos", which are preset combos, do not offer this same thing.






Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #177 on: April 25, 2010, 01:09:44 AM
Combos and Dial-a-Combos?

Oh lordy, this just got more complicated! I'm talking about Unibeam and Tornado Hold and Hadoken! You wanna "freestyle" your own combos, man, go for it! Just so long as it's balanced!



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #178 on: April 25, 2010, 01:35:06 AM
Combos and Dial-a-Combos?

Oh lordy, this just got more complicated! I'm talking about Unibeam and Tornado Hold and Hadoken! You wanna "freestyle" your own combos, man, go for it! Just so long as it's balanced!

So in other words, I believe you mean to say "special move inputs"? 8D

But in any case, this goes back to my original response. These types of "muscle memory" things are just another facet of what makes FGs what they are. Learning the execution for a Shoryuken is only the first step, where learning how to adequately use it and integrate it into your overall strategy comes later. This is where the notion of how learning a fighting game is akin to learning a martial art definitely rings true. FGs, by nature, can be such that you can spend many months learning one character/fighting style inside-out. Then after you learn that much, tactics and strategy (MIND GAMES, SON!  8D) comes later.
 
Again, for those who don't want to deal with that, give them their EO mode, and keep it moving. But don't "streamline" it and ruin it for the rest of us who are more likely to keep at it long after the casual crowd has since moved on.


 



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #179 on: April 25, 2010, 01:44:00 AM
But that's just it! You've got a crowd that doesn't want to bother with the time it takes to do that junk! AKA, most of the buyers!

Make 2 modes or something! And no damage penalty.



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #180 on: April 25, 2010, 02:00:22 AM
But that's just it! You've got a crowd that doesn't want to bother with the time it takes to do that junk! AKA, most of the buyers!

Make 2 modes or something! And no damage penalty.

There's such a thing as meeting half way, and doing it in a way that still is conducive to wanting to teach players to learn. Super Guide/EO is one such way. It works, because it's a means to give players immediate gratification, but at the price of not giving the player everything they want for free, either.

Mario Galaxy 2's Super Guide gives you the "out" if you're having trouble and just want to finish. But at a price! No Gold Star for you, you get a "Bronze Star", instead. So, with that much, the game gives you the incentive to want to do it for yourself, if you want to complete the game. Or, you could just elect to keep the Bronze Star, if you just want to get that much closer to finishing the game. That's up to the player.

EO/Automatic in some fighting games is the same way. Immediate gratification for those who just want flash, but you're not going to get the full experience of playing the actual game and learning it in-depth. 

So, no, I don't agree with "No Damage Penalty". An EO should be a privilege that allows the player a sizable handicap as it is.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #181 on: April 25, 2010, 05:18:00 AM
No, there should not be a damage penalty. That defeats most of the purpose of having this issue dealt with, to begin with.

Again, only damage penalties for Hyper Combos. And not every special attack can get mapped to these button presses (at least, I don't think so). Either way, no sense punishing players who want a more fluid experience.

You want to do some sort of penalty? Do a "time-to-execution" penalty, since that's the difference in combat between inputting and single button, but not damage.



Offline Solar

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Reply #182 on: April 25, 2010, 05:35:32 AM
As long as there's some kind of penalty.

Ugh, I still haven't gotten over HADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKI
HADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKI
HADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKIHADANGEKI


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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #183 on: April 25, 2010, 05:37:28 AM
And SSB puts a damage penalty on spamming. Smart.

Not intuitive.
Not logical.

But smart.



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #184 on: April 25, 2010, 06:38:31 AM
No, there should not be a damage penalty. That defeats most of the purpose of having this issue dealt with, to begin with.
...
Either way, no sense punishing players who want a more fluid experience.

But that's the thing. It should be a "training wheels" experience, not give one the full gratification of experiencing the game/game engine at its fullest. There should be SOME incentive for the player to want to experience the game the way it was intended, right?  8D

Plenty of other games have addressed this issue in similar ways. NSMBW and the upcoming Mario Galaxy 2, both have "Super Guides". The Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe and the modern day Ninja Gaiden games, as well as God Hand and Bayonetta, have things akin to "Easy Automatic" modes that are more enough if you just want to beat the game, and experience it on a precursory level. But if you want to see what the game has to offer for real, take off the training wheels, and step up to "Normal" mode.

If such works for other games, it's more than enough for Fighting Games, as well. The EO/Automatic option that existed in Capcom games past is an ideal example of how they could do this.

Quote
You want to do some sort of penalty? Do a "time-to-execution" penalty, since that's the difference in combat between inputting and single button, but not damage.

Alright, how about this?

For example, in Street Fighter Alpha 2, there was an "Automatic" Mode that was suitable for beginners.

You would get a number of "freebie autoblocks", where the game would automatically have your character block, as long as you were not actively inputting any thing. After that, you had to block as normal. Additionally, in Automatic mode, you could do super combos by pressing an adjacent pairing of a Punch and Kick (where each level corresponded to any one among a character's 3 supers).

The trade-off was that in this system, you could not link normals to supers, thus limiting your character's combo potential. Additionally, you only got level of super meter, which took about as long to fill as a Level 3 meter.

So, in short, it was a compromise system. You still had to incur a penalty for playing with the "training wheels".  8)
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 07:27:52 AM by Protoman Blues »



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #185 on: April 25, 2010, 07:36:20 AM
But in any case, this goes back to my original response. These types of "muscle memory" things are just another facet of what makes FGs what they are. Learning the execution for a Shoryuken is only the first step, where learning how to adequately use it and integrate it into your overall strategy comes later. This is where the notion of how learning a fighting game is akin to learning a martial art definitely rings true. FGs, by nature, can be such that you can spend many months learning one character/fighting style inside-out. Then after you learn that much, tactics and strategy (MIND GAMES, SON!  8D) comes later.

Of course, with that, you come across players like my friend Joshmack.  To say he is a beast in FGs is an understatement.  I'll just simply go back to when SFIV was released.  GameStop had a tourney, and since Lou couldn't enter cause he worked there, he signed Joshmack up.  Joshmack had never played SFIV before, so while he's online he talking with someone and he asks him...

Joshmack - "So, have you played this before?"
Chump - "Yeah, it's awesome!"
Joshmack - "Does Zangief play the same way!"
Chump - "Yep."
Joshmack - "That's all I needed to know!"

He then proceeds to not just beat everyone there, but easily mop the [tornado fang]ing floor with them, to the point where they all feared playing him.  Since the top 2 got to go to the next round, the #2 guy who Joshmack wiped the floor with before just looked at him and said, "Well.....at least I get to go to the next round" and then proceeded to lose.  Joshmack had zero intention of moving on to the next round too, which sadly made him feel pretty good.

From what I've seen, Joshmack has mastered characters like Zangief to a point in which no matter what type of 360 character is in the game, he can instantly use him, and be devastating with him.  Alex, Hugo, and so on.  LoL, like you said Ben, I guess it's just muscle memory.



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #186 on: April 25, 2010, 07:51:53 AM
Of course, with that, you come across players like my friend Joshmack. 

From what I've seen, Joshmack has mastered characters like Zangief to a point in which no matter what type of 360 character is in the game, he can instantly use him, and be devastating with him.  Alex, Hugo, and so on.  LoL, like you said Ben, I guess it's just muscle memory.

It's not just muscle memory, though. Muscle memory insures that once you learn something well enough, that surmounts the "execution" thing. You're going to know how to do a Hadouken, Charge-motion, 360 or a SRK, and it's something that's applicable to any other game that contains such. Now, Geese's traditional Raging Storm and Akira's "Stun Palm of Doom"? That's examples of things that I'm STILL trying to get off with any degree of competence!  8D

But what your friend also demonstrates is that he knows the basics that govern tactics and strategy. If he's already a decent Zangief player in any other SF game, he already knows the fundamentals that govern how to play the Red Cyclone. And it works for the sake of SF4, because a number of those old strategies still apply.

Couple that with the fact that SF4 'Gief is a BEAST, with likelihood that the majority of the people there at that GStop tourney were probably newbies, and it's enough to dictate how your friend was able to do just fine. Proper training, combined with certain other things in his favor = RESULTS!  8D



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #187 on: April 25, 2010, 08:16:19 AM
But what your friend also demonstrates is that he knows the basics that govern tactics and strategy. If he's already a decent Zangief player in any other SF game, he already knows the fundamentals that govern how to play the Red Cyclone. And it works for the sake of SF4, because a number of those old strategies still apply.

Oh, he's not just a decent Zangief player.  As of right now, I'd venture to say he's the best Gief player on the planet, because in all my years of watching people play SF, I've never seen or met anyone as good as him, or really even close to how good he is with 360 characters like him.  Hell, he's been banned in SFII XBLA because they think he's cheating somehow, or something.  Honestly, I wish he was at PAX with us, because I think he could take on the EVO fighters and beat them.  LoL, he just doesn't care enough.  XD

Quote
Couple that with the fact that SF4 'Gief is a BEAST, with likelihood that the majority of the people there at that GStop tourney were probably newbies, and it's enough to dictate how your friend was able to do just fine. Proper training, combined with certain other things in his favor = RESULTS!  8D

Yeah, from what he and Lou tell me, Gief's reach in SFIV is ridiculously good, to the point of grabbing Akuma out of said super before he can do it!  He also told me that MvC Gief was the best Gief ever in a fighting game!  But yeah, he's very good with tactics and strategy I believe.  He mastered Rolento in SFA3 (which he says is the best FG character ever created) to a point where he is 231-0.  Friendships former in Boston from people trying to beat him. 

What makes it worse is that he's an arrogant prick too.  LoL, not to random strangers, but to us, his closest friends!   8D



Offline The Drunken Dishwasher

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Reply #188 on: April 25, 2010, 08:51:33 AM
Ya know what I miss from specifically 3rd Strike that other fighters should add in for the lols?

System Direction.  Especially when having unlocked every page (Ben should KNOW exactly WHAT i'm talking about.)



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #189 on: April 25, 2010, 10:33:48 AM
It would indeed be nice. But all the same: Ono and Niitsuma need to be more worried about making solid games, first and foremost. They can worry about the silly [parasitic bomb], later. After all, Niitsuma has a lot to prove to the skeptics within communities such as SRK's, because TvC didn't last long. About a good 8 months between the first version and the last, and then the scene for the game all but fizzled out. That's sad.

And HS.EXE's comments don't help. People on SRK are either outright lol-ing at his essay that he posted, if not outright smh-ing because his brand of thinking, combined with Niitsuma's recent quotes about "MvC2 was too complex, LOL!" don't exactly do a lot to instill confidence on those who have already feel dejected by modern day Capcom's fighting games already. 

The more reasonable, like myself, are more amiable: we want to see what MvC3 has in store. But we also completely abhor the idea of trying to "simplify" things. Give people their easy mode, and keep the rest of the experience unfettered for the rest of us.



Offline Solar

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Reply #190 on: April 25, 2010, 07:40:01 PM
It would indeed be nice. But all the same: Ono and Niitsuma need to be more worried about making solid games, first and foremost. They can worry about the silly [parasitic bomb], later. After all, Niitsuma has a lot to prove to the skeptics within communities such as SRK's, because TvC didn't last long. About a good 8 months between the first version and the last, and then the scene for the game all but fizzled out. That's sad. 

That has more to do with SRK itself than with TvC being a good game or not. The console of choice in combination with the always stupid "lol it's not Marvel 3/it's not like Marvel 2" didn't help it there. Honestly, the latter is a good part of the reason why I'm really hoping it's more like TvC than MvC2 just to see the bitter tears >_> (the other part being that I like TvC's feel more than MvC2's)


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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #191 on: April 25, 2010, 08:25:16 PM
It would indeed be nice. But all the same: Ono and Niitsuma need to be more worried about making solid games, first and foremost. They can worry about the silly [parasitic bomb], later. After all, Niitsuma has a lot to prove to the skeptics within communities such as SRK's, because TvC didn't last long. About a good 8 months between the first version and the last, and then the scene for the game all but fizzled out. That's sad.

And HS.EXE's comments don't help. People on SRK are either outright lol-ing at his essay that he posted, if not outright smh-ing because his brand of thinking, combined with Niitsuma's recent quotes about "MvC2 was too complex, LOL!" don't exactly do a lot to instill confidence on those who have already feel dejected by modern day Capcom's fighting games already. 

The more reasonable, like myself, are more amiable: we want to see what MvC3 has in store. But we also completely abhor the idea of trying to "simplify" things. Give people their easy mode, and keep the rest of the experience unfettered for the rest of us.

Let me tell you right now, I don't give a [parasitic bomb] what those bloody little communities think. Odds are, most of them pirate the games anyway. And they're going to do what they're going to do to have their way (Brawl+ and ban lists are an excellent example of this). I'd rather not associate myself with the likes of Dylan Tnga and other like-minded idiots, and I don't think new players or fans of Marvel and Capcom that aren't privvy to this unadulterated BS deserve that displeasure.

Video games are in a state of reinvention and simplification as is obvious from the Wii's results. Marvel Vs. Capcom, like Super Smash Bros., is pretty obviously an intended mashup/fun fighter, rather than a serious competitive one.

You want to play like that, play Super Street Fighter IV or some other game that does deliver such balance.
Most of the people who want to play a crossover fighter like this are just in it for the fun. Balance should remain an important part of these games, and if it happens to do so, great, but it's not the end of the world if it doesn't happen.

What WILL be the end of the world is if there are no more games out, and the best way to ensure that is to SEPARATE THEIR ASSES and nitpicking into one game series which gets downloadable updates, then have a mass-appealing, but training, fighter that might teach people into the competitive scene if they so desire, and if not, is just a fun romp.



Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #192 on: April 25, 2010, 09:57:28 PM
As along time fighting game fan, and a rather good player at that, I have to completely agree with what Ben has been saying. Don't diminish the expected experience for the seasoned vets. I think Bleach DS did a pretty good job with this. The touch screen had shortcut buttons, however, it FORCED an EX use of the move you pressed the touchscreen button for as a draw back for being lazy. The supers had no drawbacks that I remember, so that was a little broken, but it did help a lot of my less skilled friends still compete reasonably. Some went on to actually learn the commands like I had, to get a better control over things. That was an acceptable 'easy mode' I thought. You could also enable auto guard too, but there was a few limitations if I recall correctly when using it. There was some technique you couldn't do when it was enabled. I think it was canceling into an attack or something. So it all sorta balanced out in its own way.

I did not particularly like MvC2's four button system. But I like the TvC three button system, since its a set of limb-ambiguous buttons, which works better for crossovers, especially anime. I think it worked VERY well in JoJo and MeltyBlood too.


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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #193 on: April 25, 2010, 10:29:34 PM
That has more to do with SRK itself than with TvC being a good game or not. The console of choice in combination with the always stupid "lol it's not Marvel 3/it's not like Marvel 2" didn't help it there. Honestly, the latter is a good part of the reason why I'm really hoping it's more like TvC than MvC2 just to see the bitter tears >_> (the other part being that I like TvC's feel more than MvC2's)

Fact of the matter is, TvC still didn't change the name of the game all that much. Looking at worldwide sales, as well as quotes from company personnel, it can be gleaned that it was not the Wii fanbase that really helped TvC throughout its two lifetimes. It really boiled down to players who more or less were PS360 fighting game fans, who happened to have a Wii in the household, as well. THEY were the majority that ended up helping the game.

And even there, the game itself couldn't last because it does not have the long-legs of some other fighters. "Casual appeal" not withstanding, it was also the makings of the game's downfall, when it came to longevity. You know some thing is not quite right when Famitsu, whose reviews' quality could always be called into question, stated that the game felt "flat" and that it really boiled down to how players can do the same Baroque combos over and over again. Lo and behold, that's EXACTLY the kind of things that even the most open-minded of FGers have said about the game.

So, honestly, that all said, the less MvC:FTW is like TvC, the better off the game may be already. Casual appeal is fine and good, but not if it sacrifices the game's long-lasting appeal in the process.

Let me tell you right now, I don't give a [parasitic bomb] what those bloody little communities think. Odds are, most of them pirate the games anyway. And they're going to do what they're going to do to have their way (Brawl+ and ban lists are an excellent example of this). I'd rather not associate myself with the likes of Dylan Tnga and other like-minded idiots, and I don't think new players or fans of Marvel and Capcom that aren't privvy to this unadulterated BS deserve that displeasure.

Video games are in a state of reinvention and simplification as is obvious from the Wii's results.

And this simplification is still part of the problem, NOT the solution.

For example, as inevitable as it may be, Ono (SF4 producer) getting his hands on a new Darkstalkers game is a source of worry for me and many. Doing what happened to SF4 is one thing, as SF has worldwide appeal that was waiting to be catered to. But what's the use of trying to "simplify" and "mass market" Darkstalkers, when such a series never had that kind of market share in the first place? No "Vampire" game ever had the appeal of a Street Fighter or MAHVEL game in the West. Udon's Darkstalkers comic run did not last long. Even in the midst of the fighting game resurgence of the last few years, as well as GGPO taking the scene to new heights, Darkstalkers has still been very much a niche thing, especially in the West.

Ono could try and "SF4-ify" Darkstalkers if that's what he REALLY wishes. But I'm thinking that the backlash from the old guard would be even worse than when it came from SF4. The fan-base demographic is much smaller than SF's, and the casual audience is NOT THERE. So, with that much stated, would there really be much that to benefit from trying to make a "casual push" for such a franchise? I say, definitely not.

Furthermore, not everybody believes in this "simplication" mantra, and still gets very positive results. Case in point: BLIZZARD.

Blizzard, as a rule, has always gone to say that they craft a game with the "hardcore" sect of their fanbase in mind, first and foremost. They say that, because they know that their hardcore fanbase is inevitably the hardest one to please, but also because the design model provides a game that will serve to have many levels of depth. This is why, especially, SC2 is the game it is, because as much as some people may not like that the game looks to be little more than a graphical facelift of a game from over a decade ago, the game will still serve to keep its fans happy.

That's the thing that I wish Capcom would get, as well. You can craft a game that can still be hardcore oriented, yet still has various levels that can cater to so many different people, as well. This "streamlining" process may lower the skill threshold required for their games, but it also kills the game's possible livelihood in the process.

I mean, honestly, how many times are Capcom going to allow the continuing of this insanity of "dumbing down" perfectly fine games, and expect a different result?



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #194 on: April 25, 2010, 10:54:59 PM
What WILL be the end of the world is if there are no more games out, and the best way to ensure that is to SEPARATE THEIR ASSES and nitpicking into one game series which gets downloadable updates, then have a mass-appealing, but training, fighter that might teach people into the competitive scene if they so desire, and if not, is just a fun romp.

LoL, the END OF THE WORLD?  I think you are being a tad bit dramatic here.  

Also, you keep bringing up Smash Bros.  Keep in mind, I don't play competitively with Smash, nor do I have any intention too.  However, Smash Bros. is definitely not Marvel vs. Capcom in any way.  MvC, like all the VS series games are still pretty traditional FG's, just a little bit more flashy.  They still require Combo systems.  Now, Brawl has combos as well, but not on the level of real FGs, plus with the Items, Slipping, Smash Balls, etc., it adds a level of craziness, randomness, and silliness that makes the game not a traditional fighter.  

There are people who like to play Smash like a competitive fighting game, and that's there right.  I simply don't play those people, cause I don't find it fun.  But it seems to me that your problem is that people, I'm guessing like Jericho & I, tend to get so good in the game that it becomes un-fun for you, as judged by this comment here...

That's mostly what I play.

And you and Jelly seem to have some tricks I just don't bother to practice up on in that much detail.
'Course Falco's also been nerfed, so that wasn't cool either...

What you call tricks is really just our specific style of playing a character.  I play Marth differently than Jericho does (I like to call it....Not-As-Good Marth), just like he plays Capt. Falcon differently than I do (cept for the PANCH, because PANCHING is universal.  ALSO, PICK YOUR OWN COSTUME, JELLY!).  These are just how we develop and learn with specific characters.  From what I remember of playing your Falco, you pretty much just Blaster spammed and smashed (I could be confusing you with someone else, so I apologize if I am).  If this is the case, then I can see why you think Falco was nerfed.  Falco was NOT nerfed, in ANY way whatsoever.  If anything, he either kept his Melee awesomicity, or he was improved.  Jigglypuff was nerfed (I STILL cannot understand why Rest was weakened), Fox was nerfed, Sheik was nerfed, but Falco is easily one of the best characters in the game.  But again, you're only judging based on one-on-one play, because like I said, when 3 to 4 people are playing, anything goes.

MvC may be a mash-up of characters, but it's still a FG and thus the same rules of how one plays a FG still apply.  Listen, I suck at fighting games.  I have little to no chance against people like Lou, or my friend Joshmack, because they've been playing fighting games all their life.   TatsuCap is the only one I stand somewhat of a chance in because it's simple enough where I can do some combos, and plus both Lou & Joshmack don't practice as much.  So either I can get better and try to learn how to truly play and do combos, or simply play for fun and lose.  But to nerf the game so that I have a chance to win is kinda silly.  It's why I think MvC2 is such an awful game.  Any game in which I can pick a certain 3-5 characters and even come close or beat people like Lou or Joshmack means there is something wrong with the game, cause it's CERTAINLY not my skill level.  I hope they fix this in MvC3.

So, honestly, that all said, the less MvC:FTW is like TvC, the better off the game may be already. Casual appeal is fine and good, but not if it sacrifices the game's long-lasting appeal in the process.

Personally though, I hope MvC3 is more like TatsuCap than MvC2, just in regards to no Cable, Sentinel, misc.  XD



Offline Mirby

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Reply #195 on: April 25, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
PB, we have more in common than I thought! ^_^ All very valid points.

As I see it, it all depends on how you play the character. For instance, my ALLSMASH main (meaning I use him in all 3 Smash Bros) is Kirby. And I play Kirby smart; I don't commit Kirbicide (HEY I'LL EAT YOU AND JUMP OFF A CLIFF!), I use his abilities wisely. When one power ceases to be effective, I lose it and try getting another. It all depends on how one plays the character; no one character is inherently better than another. The true strength of a character lies within the cunning and strategies of the player. Even the character with the weakest attacks can become a true monster in the right hands.

What I'm trying to say here is, even if the characters are unbalanced or there's too many to keep a consistent level of quality, it doesn't matter. Any character has the potential to be deadly if the person playing them has the right strategy.

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #196 on: April 26, 2010, 02:45:52 AM
Nah, I'm not going out shoo'd like some dog:

As along time fighting game fan, and a rather good player at that, I have to completely agree with what Ben has been saying. Don't diminish the expected experience for the seasoned vets. I think Bleach DS did a pretty good job with this. The touch screen had shortcut buttons, however, it FORCED an EX use of the move you pressed the touchscreen button for as a draw back for being lazy. The supers had no drawbacks that I remember, so that was a little broken, but it did help a lot of my less skilled friends still compete reasonably. Some went on to actually learn the commands like I had, to get a better control over things. That was an acceptable 'easy mode' I thought. You could also enable auto guard too, but there was a few limitations if I recall correctly when using it. There was some technique you couldn't do when it was enabled. I think it was canceling into an attack or something. So it all sorta balanced out in its own way.

I did not particularly like MvC2's four button system. But I like the TvC three button system, since its a set of limb-ambiguous buttons, which works better for crossovers, especially anime. I think it worked VERY well in JoJo and MeltyBlood too.

I'm currently browsing the SRK forums, and they're just all up in arms "Oh it's gotta be six buttons or it won't be good." Frankly I think you can make a very diverse set of four (I dunno about three, though) buttons that have different time spans and some launch and be well off. But that's my experience (actually, if you spanned the hit-times out, that might help with balance and priority!).

As for an Easy Mode, I wouldn't rule it out, and since there is a way to do it, I think that the easy mode would have a time-to-execution penalty (and possibly a very negligible damage penalty on the higher damage specials).

Right now, though, I feel like just taking out inputs altogether! Particularly when it's causing this level of grief!!!!!!!!

Fact of the matter is, TvC still didn't change the name of the game all that much. Looking at worldwide sales, as well as quotes from company personnel, it can be gleaned that it was not the Wii fanbase that really helped TvC throughout its two lifetimes. It really boiled down to players who more or less were PS360 fighting game fans, who happened to have a Wii in the household, as well. THEY were the majority that ended up helping the game.

And even there, the game itself couldn't last because it does not have the long-legs of some other fighters. "Casual appeal" not withstanding, it was also the makings of the game's downfall, when it came to longevity. You know some thing is not quite right when Famitsu, whose reviews' quality could always be called into question, stated that the game felt "flat" and that it really boiled down to how players can do the same Baroque combos over and over again. Lo and behold, that's EXACTLY the kind of things that even the most open-minded of FGers have said about the game.

So, honestly, that all said, the less MvC:FTW is like TvC, the better off the game may be already. Casual appeal is fine and good, but not if it sacrifices the game's long-lasting appeal in the process.

And this simplification is still part of the problem, NOT the solution.

For example, as inevitable as it may be, Ono (SF4 producer) getting his hands on a new Darkstalkers game is a source of worry for me and many. Doing what happened to SF4 is one thing, as SF has worldwide appeal that was waiting to be catered to. But what's the use of trying to "simplify" and "mass market" Darkstalkers, when such a series never had that kind of market share in the first place? No "Vampire" game ever had the appeal of a Street Fighter or MAHVEL game in the West. Udon's Darkstalkers comic run did not last long. Even in the midst of the fighting game resurgence of the last few years, as well as GGPO taking the scene to new heights, Darkstalkers has still been very much a niche thing, especially in the West.

Ono could try and "SF4-ify" Darkstalkers if that's what he REALLY wishes. But I'm thinking that the backlash from the old guard would be even worse than when it came from SF4. The fan-base demographic is much smaller than SF's, and the casual audience is NOT THERE. So, with that much stated, would there really be much that to benefit from trying to make a "casual push" for such a franchise? I say, definitely not.

Furthermore, not everybody believes in this "simplication" mantra, and still gets very positive results. Case in point: BLIZZARD.

Blizzard, as a rule, has always gone to say that they craft a game with the "hardcore" sect of their fanbase in mind, first and foremost. They say that, because they know that their hardcore fanbase is inevitably the hardest one to please, but also because the design model provides a game that will serve to have many levels of depth. This is why, especially, SC2 is the game it is, because as much as some people may not like that the game looks to be little more than a graphical facelift of a game from over a decade ago, the game will still serve to keep its fans happy.

That's the thing that I wish Capcom would get, as well. You can craft a game that can still be hardcore oriented, yet still has various levels that can cater to so many different people, as well. This "streamlining" process may lower the skill threshold required for their games, but it also kills the game's possible livelihood in the process.

I mean, honestly, how many times are Capcom going to allow the continuing of this insanity of "dumbing down" perfectly fine games, and expect a different result?

How can you call TvsC good? I can't even do that. It was only on the Wii, had a brand new team that even fewer people were familiar with, a different control style, and felt flat? Not that that's uncommon; most games feel static these days.

At some point, the hardcore crowd was new. Okay? Learning everything. Still has to pick up on new features and frame-timings each installment too, at the very minimum!

Now consider what all we've discussed so far.
Got that?
Okay, now keep in mind that there are people that have trouble with SMB1.
...yeah. Give a marginal benefit for the input crowd, but don't slap new fans in the face for not being "hardcore" right off the [hard knuckle]ing bat.

Or for people, like me, who could probably learn all the strings and combos, and probably do them very well, but really just don't want to bother with that level of headache! Same went for Snaking! Same went for Brawl (which I'll touch on here in a minute)! Same for Guitar Hero!
There's a lot of people and potential buys and even future greats that say "Eh, I dunno" because they see conversations like this, and all the lingo, and all the overcomplication.

And I say, if you're going to value a set of button inputs over just having fun getting together with people, you need to get a life or devote your energies to something actually productive to society. How about that ****?

LoL, the END OF THE WORLD?  I think you are being a tad bit dramatic here. 

Also, you keep bringing up Smash Bros.  Keep in mind, I don't play competitively with Smash, nor do I have any intention too.  However, Smash Bros. is definitely not Marvel vs. Capcom in any way.  MvC, like all the VS series games are still pretty traditional FG's, just a little bit more flashy.  They still require Combo systems.  Now, Brawl has combos as well, but not on the level of real FGs, plus with the Items, Slipping, Smash Balls, etc., it adds a level of craziness, randomness, and silliness that makes the game not a traditional fighter. 

There are people who like to play Smash like a competitive fighting game, and that's their right.  I simply don't play those people, cause I don't find it fun.  But it seems to me that your problem is that people, I'm guessing like Jericho & I, tend to get so good in the game that it becomes un-fun for you, as judged by this comment here...

What you call tricks is really just our specific style of playing a character.  I play Marth differently than Jericho does (I like to call it....Not-As-Good Marth), just like he plays Capt. Falcon differently than I do (cept for the PANCH, because PANCHING is universal.  ALSO, PICK YOUR OWN COSTUME, JELLY!).  These are just how we develop and learn with specific characters.  From what I remember of playing your Falco, you pretty much just Blaster spammed and smashed (I could be confusing you with someone else, so I apologize if I am).  If this is the case, then I can see why you think Falco was nerfed.  Falco was NOT nerfed, in ANY way whatsoever.  If anything, he either kept his Melee awesomicity, or he was improved.  Jigglypuff was nerfed (I STILL cannot understand why Rest was weakened), Fox was nerfed, Sheik was nerfed, but Falco is easily one of the best characters in the game.  But again, you're only judging based on one-on-one play, because like I said, when 3 to 4 people are playing, anything goes.

MvC may be a mash-up of characters, but it's still a FG and thus the same rules of how one plays a FG still apply.  Listen, I suck at fighting games.  I have little to no chance against people like Lou, or my friend Joshmack, because they've been playing fighting games all their life.   TatsuCap is the only one I stand somewhat of a chance in because it's simple enough where I can do some combos, and plus both Lou & Joshmack don't practice as much.  So either I can get better and try to learn how to truly play and do combos, or simply play for fun and lose.  But to nerf the game so that I have a chance to win is kinda silly.  It's why I think MvC2 is such an awful game.  Any game in which I can pick a certain 3-5 characters and even come close or beat people like Lou or Joshmack means there is something wrong with the game, cause it's CERTAINLY not my skill level.  I hope they fix this in MvC3.

Personally though, I hope MvC3 is more like TatsuCap than MvC2, just in regards to no Cable, Sentinel, misc.  XD

Of course it sounds dramatic, but the point is, the series may have a bunch of hardcore fans, but those are likely half to less of the current buying market. And appealing to the same market, basic business logic, they're going to eventually fade and disappear, then what?
This isn't a sponsored sport; it's a video game. It's software. It's gotta be purchased by the same mass public as...well, I'm not gonna get into that topic.
So, the game needs to be as didactic as it is hardcore, up-to-snuff, balanced, etc.

Because that's all I could get a lag-ridden Falco to do! You probably also saw me do some really "WTF?" stuff, too; I got rid of Brawl because the online component was constantly serving to be an unknown variable in trying to judge my performance or change in tactics, MUCH LESS trying to deal with a nerfed Dair. That's right, that spike's timing was nerfed. In Melee? If you ran into that thing, you were going down. Brawl? Pfft, nah, you MIGHT get hit with it at just the right time. Other than that, Falco's severely outgunned trying to deal with a Marth; Marth's sword gets ALL SORTS of priority over Falco's Standard, Strong, and Air attacks. Smashes are all you can do! That and projectile spam. Especially in a lag setting, whereas Marth can fairly well do whatever and get a wide, sweeping strike (see: all his Aerials, FFS). If I lost IRL, eh, I might be a little upset that I'm not doing better, but true, I don't spend a lot of time on any game. I'll gladly admit that, because I'm just in it for fun, not to mention I've got work, workout, dating, MBA, and tons of other things to do.

That's why I had to pick Pikachu, and you know what? I was doing pretty good. See if Marth or Capitan can get near me when I DSmash!
But! It wasn't who I wanted to be.

Is it silly to nerf a game? In a competitive setting, obviously. Pro golfers and tennis players don't bloody use handicaps or get to use the lanes. But that's a perfect example of where I'm going with this; especially online, FG's don't offer at least the control fluidity to every player. I think some sort of simplification is in order, then, IF a player learns the inputs, they're rewarded with the competitive edge of extra timing or damage, whatever Capcom (or any dev) decides on.

PB, we have more in common than I thought! ^_^ All very valid points.

As I see it, it all depends on how you play the character. For instance, my ALLSMASH main (meaning I use him in all 3 Smash Bros) is Kirby. And I play Kirby smart; I don't commit Kirbicide (HEY I'LL EAT YOU AND JUMP OFF A CLIFF!), I use his abilities wisely. When one power ceases to be effective, I lose it and try getting another. It all depends on how one plays the character; no one character is inherently better than another. The true strength of a character lies within the cunning and strategies of the player. Even the character with the weakest attacks can become a true monster in the right hands.

What I'm trying to say here is, even if the characters are unbalanced or there's too many to keep a consistent level of quality, it doesn't matter. Any character has the potential to be deadly if the person playing them has the right strategy.

Not true in all cases, Green. You can evade and guard or just generally run like heck as weaker characters, and then wait for openings and start wailing.
But that goes for any character. That's one of the most basic (and not surprisingly, effective) combat tactics. It still does not account for rampant overlaps in priority or timing when it comes to matching up characters.



I still love playing video games, always will. But my business mind and empathy for the public is starting to clash with the fanbases. Can't count how many topics and times I've dreaded coming to the Gaming sub-forum to have to argue with Hypershell, HokutoNoBen, or whoever. I want to appreciate games, and make them accessible to more people so that there can be more shared passion for it. But that clashes with the people that are already playing.

Done conflicting. Done arguing. Not what I'm here to do. I'm here to wonder at distant galaxies with head-shaped planets, puzzle my brain with falling blocks, and be the funny, timeless hero when I can't myself. And if I get shell-shocked? Grab some pizza, and get back to making the party cuh-raz-uh.

And I want you guys to as well.
So, I'm just going on ahead and logging out.
Been a good run, eh? I don't guess I ever really fit in, but you're a great bunch, really. The fact that you're and your own individual selves instead of blindly following what's fed to you really says something for each and every one of ya, and I'm gonna miss that about this place.
Hey, there's only one stylish way to go about this. owob

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #197 on: April 26, 2010, 03:25:15 AM
Jesus Christ, it's Sonic Unleashed all over again... XD

Remember guys, these are just video games, even with our love for them.



Offline Solar

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Reply #198 on: April 26, 2010, 03:32:55 AM
You know some thing is not quite right when Famitsu, whose reviews' quality could always be called into question, stated that the game felt "flat" and that it really boiled down to how players can do the same Baroque combos over and over again. Lo and behold, that's EXACTLY the kind of things that even the most open-minded of FGers have said about the game.

Huh? I've been watching the scene since the beginning and that's not how I've seen it. Hell, combos are not the best use of baroque, it's just one of them.


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Offline OBJECTION MAN

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Reply #199 on: April 26, 2010, 03:33:38 AM
I honestly prefer 3 buttons to 4 buttons (2k,2p). Having a low mid and high, even if just one set, I find much more engaging and strategic. Games with a WIDE variety of combat styles and or weapons seem to benefit from having 3 buttons, since it takes away the 'kick' and 'punch' division which some characters do not comply with very well.

Street Fighter's main series should never get away from the 6 buttons though. I dont particularly think they should go for an easy mode either. Command delays and hit delays are also a stupid idea for punishment on using easy mode. A damage penalty is also stupid. That would break things way too much, and possibly spur the normal gameplay being changed to accommodate for the easy mode.

Darkstalkers I agree 100%. If they even so much as look at the core gameplay of that series the wrong way the fans will jump ship like its on fire.

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