The Marvel vs. Capcom 3 Topic (ITS MAHVEL 3 BAYBEE)

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #150 on: April 22, 2010, 07:10:20 AM
I expect Blues to be Blues-Tier.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #151 on: April 22, 2010, 07:59:04 AM
lol PB YOU SO CRAZY!

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
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Offline Fxeni

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Reply #152 on: April 22, 2010, 09:40:24 AM
FACT: This is a fighter game developed largely by Capcom.
FACT: There has not been truly balanced fighting game ever made, with the no company in the lead as far as balance.

I don't expect this to change, but I never did. I don't play any game competitively, nor would I recommend playing competitively until we one day get that balanced game where one character doesn't have a unique combo or set of attacks that outweighs the use of every other character.

That is not the nature of combat. There can only be one winner, one superior.
No ban can change that.

If we ever get the balanced game, it's a long way off. In the meantime, do what you can to enjoy it the way you do.

Me, I'll pick either my favorites or best, and do my best, and have a fun time trying to win.
>_>

Some games are more broken than others in that respect. The way it usually works is that the more characters you have, the larger the chance the game will be ridiculously imbalanced. MVC2 is a perfect example of this type of shenanigan. FACT.



Offline Solar

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Reply #153 on: April 22, 2010, 04:05:13 PM
MvC2 feels more like a "they didn't care to balance it" instead of "they couldn't balance it  because of the size of it" though. If they really wanted to it could've had SOME balance at least *points to KoF 2k2UM for an example of a balanced huge roster game*


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Offline Copy X

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Reply #154 on: April 22, 2010, 08:29:13 PM
FACT: This is a fighter game developed largely by Capcom.
FACT: There has not been truly balanced fighting game ever made, with the no company in the lead as far as balance.

I don't expect this to change, but I never did. I don't play any game competitively, nor would I recommend playing competitively until we one day get that balanced game where one character doesn't have a unique combo or set of attacks that outweighs the use of every other character.

That is not the nature of combat. There can only be one winner, one superior.
No ban can change that.

If we ever get the balanced game, it's a long way off. In the meantime, do what you can to enjoy it the way you do.
I would like to point out that Tekken 5 DR is among the most balanced games out there and also VF5 ver C (This is from competitive playing) HOWEVER there will always be characters that have better tools than others in any game. That inFACT is a fact. Current versus games (other than MVC1, XVS, MVS) are completely out of the question which is why I don't play them.

To try something new, is to explore your true potential.

-CX


Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #155 on: April 23, 2010, 12:35:20 AM
>_>

Some games are more broken than others in that respect. The way it usually works is that the more characters you have, the larger the chance the game will be ridiculously imbalanced. MVC2 is a perfect example of this type of shenanigan. FACT.

Taiyo's point is basically correct. MAHVEL was just an example of what happened when Capcom just didn't give two shits about trying to balance things. As stated before, MvC2 was a game that they were able to just throw together with minimal effort required, and yet made them plenty of money. They COULD have tried to do anything akin to what SNK is able to do on a good day (98, 2002, XI, etc), but they just couldn't be bothered.  8D

Besides, having a smaller roster is DEFINITELY NOT a thing that does more to promise balance, either.

Pretty much all of ASW's "beginning entries" in the FG world are all horridly unbalanced. GGX, Hokuto no Ken and Sengoku BASARA X are all games that only have 10 characters apiece, by default. ALL 3 are some of the most unbalanced games ever made (unless you count how everybody has access to silly crap, which in its own way "balances" things 8D). Capcom isn't that much better in this light, with MSH fixing some of the problems that COTA had, but only opening up more. And there were only 10 default characters there, too!  XD



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #156 on: April 23, 2010, 01:27:50 AM
TatsuCap seems pretty balanced to me, but that could just be cause I suck!   8D



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #157 on: April 23, 2010, 01:29:59 AM
TatsuCap seems pretty balanced to me, but that could just be cause I suck!   8D

TC is admittedly the most balanced entrant in the series. Dunno how much that says when all of the other entries were BUSTED AS ALL GET OUT, but it was definitely a nice showcase that such a thing is not impossible.

Also...

http://kotaku.com/5522160/marvel-vs-capcom-comic-books-a-natural-thing?skyline=true&s=i

Well, more work for Udon, I guess...? 8D



Offline Mirby

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Reply #158 on: April 23, 2010, 01:30:28 AM
U SHOULD LIEK GET THE GUIDE FOR THAT!

Seriously though... there are a few chars in that game I'd like to cosplay...  -_-

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #159 on: April 23, 2010, 01:39:54 AM
TC is admittedly the most balanced entrant in the series. Dunno how much that says when all of the other entries were BUSTED AS ALL GET OUT, but it was definitely a nice showcase that such a thing is not impossible.

Was the original Marvel vs. Capcom unfair?  I mean, I do know that my friend, who is a DEMON in fighting games, said that MvC Gief was one of the greatest characters ever in ANY fighting game.



Offline Solar

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Reply #160 on: April 23, 2010, 01:53:30 AM
Strider and Wolverine IIRC.


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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #161 on: April 23, 2010, 04:48:35 AM
Another interview with Niitsuma posted.

http://www.ausgamers.com/features/read/2889094

Some interesting things that come to light:

* Key team members from past Vs. games are on board with this project
* Expect more in the way of newer Capcom characters, as opposed to older ones
* Nothing has been decided, with relation to DLC
* Choice was made to go away from SF4 engine, because the MT engine was easy to use, and they didn't want MvC3 and SF4 to "look the same"
* Nemesis or Tyrant won't be joining this party for the same reason they didn't get into TvC: too "grotesque" and would have driven up the rating


A shame that it seems that we may not be able to expect some golden oldies on the Capcom side. Going with merely the PSX-PS2 era could make the roster a bit less lively than I'd like...  ;O;



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #162 on: April 23, 2010, 05:13:34 AM
Blues still has a chance!  XD



Offline Mirby

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Reply #163 on: April 23, 2010, 05:21:08 AM
Yes he does! YAY!

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #164 on: April 23, 2010, 05:41:40 AM
Quote
~No Nemesis or Tyrant
~SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS Nemesis and Tyrant
~Attempting to work in a Resident Evil villain
~Chris Redfield confirmed, Jill Valentine likely

And with Resident Evil's wild popularity, that means only one meaningful Resident Evil villain, who's actually very skilled at hand to hand combat, could be in the roster:




Offline Fxeni

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Reply #165 on: April 23, 2010, 05:48:10 AM
Sooo you guys are telling me that the size of the roster has nothing to do with why Capcom was too lazy to balance MvC2? Seriously? You do realize how hard it is to balance fighting games right? Just because some companies actually do it for a larger roster doesn't mean all of them find it worth their time all the time. As for some of the games with smaller rosters being unbalanced... again, laziness on their part. Also, I do believe I said that there was a higher chance of it being unbalanced, not a sure thing. Yeesh, people, it's not that hard to read.

Here's to hoping Capcom puts some effort this time, which is likely seeing how decent TvC was in this regard. Not perfect by any means, but better than lots of other games.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #166 on: April 23, 2010, 05:54:12 AM
You can balance a game regardless of roster size.

Just depends on how much detail you put into it (and how few combos/how simple the inputs are).

Which is why it's such a shame SSB is getting more and more unbalanced.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #167 on: April 23, 2010, 06:05:34 AM
Brawl is only really unbalanced one or one.  Anything more and it's anything goes.



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #168 on: April 23, 2010, 06:53:06 AM
Brawl is only really unbalanced one or one.

That's mostly what I play.

And you and Jelly seem to have some tricks I just don't bother to practice up on in that much detail.
'Course Falco's also been nerfed, so that wasn't cool either...



Offline Solar

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Reply #169 on: April 23, 2010, 01:55:31 PM
Also, I do believe I said that there was a higher chance of it being unbalanced, not a sure thing. Yeesh, people, it's not that hard to read.

And I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, we're (at least I anyways) only saying that MvC2's case is more of laziness thing. Are there even that many games with such big rosters anyways to form a proper comparison though?


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Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #170 on: April 23, 2010, 10:36:40 PM
And I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that, we're (at least I anyways) only saying that MvC2's case is more of laziness thing. Are there even that many games with such big rosters anyways to form a proper comparison though?

It's pretty much on the SNK side of things. Latter day KOFs and the last few 2D Samurai Spirits/Shodown games.

Funny that 0 Special is actually decently balanced game, and yet THAT'S the one SNK can't be bothered to give us a home console port for. We have to settle for Tenka.  8D



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #171 on: April 24, 2010, 07:16:35 PM
I'm transplanting this from my post on Capcom-Unity:

www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3178896
Quote
Streamlining inputs, however, may start heated discussions within the  community. "We're also looking at the possibility for some moves to be  one button." MvsC3 isn't the first time Capcom has attempted to lower  the execution barrier for neophytes. The GameCube port of Capcom vs. SNK 2,  a crossover fighter starring Capcom and SNK properties, implemented a  similar one-button command for special moves (which was aimed at  beginners). "It would be exactly like that [Capcom vs. SNK 2], but the  trade-off is that you'll lose something else. You can have the simple  one-button command, but we have to decide if that means the amount of  damage done to the opponent would be less than damage done with a full  command move." Would this mean a damage handicap for beginners who can't  perform even a Hadoken? And why is there a trade-off when previous  fighters didn't penalize players for using an easier input system?  Perhaps the handicaps are exploitable. With easier inputs, deft players  could string together combos impossible on normal execution. For  instance, many combo videos made by the fighting community are performed  with help of a programmable pad, which eliminates the physical barrier  needed to execute commands. A single press of a button is much faster  than inputting the command's motion.

I want everyone to think back to Street Fighter 2. Think about how much damage, how much hitbox, and how much priority that input combos received. This was back in the day when part of the appeal of most things fighter or "kung-fu"-ish were about how "great warriors had inner focus and after some buildup time, they would unleash their inner power." Look at Dragon Ball, at many of the 80's and 90's Hollywood karate movies. When they weren't about that specific theme, they were about the journey or training to become the best (Rocky, Karate Kid, etc.).

This is now archaic, outdated, and unnecessary. Now it seems the developers are trying to make the game balanced, which is already a pain to do between an increasing roster and the "someone's gotta win, someone's gotta lose" nature of combat. Squirrel Girl or Thanos vs. Dan or a Servbot would be over in half a second in canon, but the devs are challenged with creating a game where people who love their characters can feasibly have a chance at winning.

Even in recent competitive play, combos are not nearly as important as Launchers, Infinite Loops, and good old fashioned brawling/jabbing/haymaking/blitzing. Combos are for eye-candy or specific situations. But they can also break the game, too; if a player strings a set of regular attacks then uses a combo that loops or sets up into enough attacks that it wipes out most of the roster, that kills the game. I'm not saying "setting up" isn't okay. That's the deadliest fastest way to win any battle (ever played Blitzkrieg Chess?). But in this setting, it must be balanced out, or have some way for the opponent to break out of it.

On top of that, these combos are unintuitive and stodgy. Do you think Iron Man has to sit there and think about pulling out his Repulsors or Unibeam? No, he just flat-out uses them. Ryu? Oh yeah, when he was first learning the Hadoken, he probably had to concentrate very hard on his Chi before getting it to work, but you know what? He's a world champ, now. A legend. It shouldn't take him DownDownrightRight Fierce to do a Hadoken, anymore. Mega Man's weapons are as instantaneous as his buster; why Tornado Hold, Leaf Shield, and Mega Ball are string inputs and not one-button presses like the Mega Buster (Heavy Punch) is beyond me.

I don't need to remind everybody here how much this would help new players, but there's a good reason for it. You know, the majority of people don't, and shouldn't, bother having to memorize a list of combos just to be their favorite character and look awesome doing it. Especially when you're trying to show the game to someone new, either to the series, or to video gaming, or new to you! The majority of the buying public plays these games for the trademark atmosphere and the fun. That's why games like Power Stone and Super Smash Bros. are so enjoyed.

It's time to move on, it really is. I feel for veteran players, and I do think there should be some challenging modes, but A) I really think this obsession with the supposed "elitism" that comes with doing these string inputs has gotten very unhealthy, and B) players should NOT be penalized for using a one-button press compared to a string input.

Veteran players should be more rewarded with challenges and harder achievements that require the skill that they have in their other capacities such as how to analyze chains of attacks and setups, and how to evade the most damage with hitboxes and positioning, in addition to learning attack patterns. And then the timing of pulling that all off. That's worth more than practicing a set of button inputs ad nauseum.



Offline Cpie

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Reply #172 on: April 24, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
Marvel vs. Capcom vs. Tatsunoko vs. Disney anyone?

Pogo stick Scrooge for God Tier. XD

Someone hit this guy.

I hope X is in this ;_;



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #173 on: April 24, 2010, 10:17:06 PM
I'm transplanting this from my post on Capcom-Unity:

www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3178896

Now, see? I have no problem with an optional "Handicap/Easy Operation" model that helps ease people into the system. Let them have that, so that the more "casual" crowd can have it their way, as well. But making that the "standard"? And in short, trying to ditch what basically amounts to the better portion of 2 DECADES'S worth of what makes fighting games what they are? Sorry, I don't buy that. It's not necessary, and doing as such would be jeopardizing the intermediate and advanced levels of competitive play for no good reason.

Whether those who want to try and "streamline" everything realize it or not, EVERY GAME requires a good deal of memorization and actually "learning the game", in order for you to get competent at it. And for those games that require the highest amounts of such memorization, like say, FPSes, RTSes and yes, Fighting Games, this is a hallmark of those genres. Learning what's necessary, in order to be able to hold your own, is part of what makes these games so appealing to those who love them most. Even a game like Gundam vs. Gundam NEXT (one of my new favorite passions) requires memorization and learning, and it's not even a "real" fighting game like Street Fighter. 

But the beauty of it is? You don't NEED to learn that level of devotion required for high level play, if you have no desire to play the game on that kind of competitive level. Stick with the casual tip. Stick with the EO mode input. Play through story mode for another time. All of that is there for those who just want to be able to enjoy the game on that kind of level, for as long as their casual desire wills them to keep playing, until they move on.

In short, this "streamlining" thing is completely unnecessary. All it sounds like is the same rhetoric that I've been hearing for the better portion of the last decade since "Smash Bros." came on the scene. Not every game needs to be like Smash. Hell, SF4 is practically as close as you can get, while still keeping an air of what makes SF what it is.

But in any case, I do not see Capcom doing any thing that would [acid burst] off its fanbase. They want to expand their appeal, true, but they're not about to do that at any cost.



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #174 on: April 24, 2010, 10:24:21 PM
Yeah, I'm with Ben on that. A fighting game like that should never force you to play in Single Button mode. But if you want to include shortcuts on the right analog stick, that's fine.


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