Topic: The Mario Kart Thread

[Protoman Blues]

That's another thing I think MK has lost Post MK64, and that's level design.

[Mirby]

Yeah... Baby Park is good, but only for the reason that it's supposed to be a quick track. Other ones... not so much.

[AquaTeamV3]

Hm, pretty interesting discussion going on here.  Here's some of my own thoughts regarding items:

• Am I the only one here who misses the special effect that backwards-tossed Red Shells had in Super Circuit?  The one where it'd remain stationary until someone passed it, in which case they'd get smacked?  I thought that it was a nice way to allow someone in first place to keep their lead, and further held a general balance to things.  At the time, Red Shells were pretty common in 2nd place, and even some could be found in 1st.
• Character specific items should return.  That one of the things that I felt made Double Dash unique, and the items themselves were pretty balanced, although the Heart Shield was pretty evil.  The Fireball was my personal favorite, actually, effectively letting you toss out 5 green shells in a spread-like pattern.  The items made character choices a lot more personal, and added some charm to the game.
• Come to think of it, item stealing was pretty neat too.  If you played co-op in Double Dash, the backseat driver could do this nifty little swipe maneuver with the kart, which could not save you from careening off of a cliff due to your buddy's driving, but could also 'punch' adjacent karts, stealing whatever items they had on hand.  I think Mushrooms have been able to do the same in more recent titles.  For the record, I'm against dropping items when you get hit, but the whole concept of swiping them seems fun.

-The Ice Flower would give you the ability to freeze opponents in front of you or behind you.

Kind of reminds me of how the Ice Slasher worked in Battle & Chase, where you'd effectively nullify the steering of your opponent's car until they smacked a wall or another driver.  You can imagine what something like this would do to people on Rainbow Road... 

[Police Girl]

That's another thing I think MK has lost Post MK64, and that's level design.

Yoshi Falls. Its good proof.

[Hypershell]

Double Dash had a few good ones (including my personal favorite Rainbow Road), but yeah, the track design has been a bit boring.  I especially feel this was the case in DS, and the few awesome tracks (Bowser Castle, Airship Fortress) were generally not permitted in online play.

And I will *NEVER* understand why in 2 games of retro titles, Wario Stadium and Royal Raceway have not reappeared.

[Protoman Blues]

• Character specific items should return.  That one of the things that I felt made Double Dash unique, and the items themselves were pretty balanced, although the Heart Shield was pretty evil.  The Fireball was my personal favorite, actually, effectively letting you toss out 5 green shells in a spread-like pattern.  The items made character choices a lot more personal, and added some charm to the game.

BULL. [parasitic bomb].

In no way whatsoever should that travesty be allowed to occur yet again.  The character special supers were NOT balanced at all.  I know this for a fact because using my favorite character in all of Mario Kart was literally akin to me losing the race.  Koopa Troopa's special were either 3 Green Shells or 3 Red Shells, most of the time 3 Green Shells.  Never mind the fact that they didn't spin around you like a shield, another negative to Double Dash, but his special was literally a basic item choice.  Meanwhile, you've got characters with chain chomps, or giant shells, or fireballs, supers that were literally game changers.

The problem with the supers is the exact same problem with the bikes, in that it takes away skill for specialty, and thus ruins any semblance of balance.  In SNES & MK64, choosing a character was essentially choosing a driving skill.  No one was better than the other, and it was perfectly balanced.  However, DD then brought in character supers, and some were so much better than others that there was essentially no reason to pick some characters.  They got rid of that, thankfully, only to add in the new imbalance of different carts in MKDS, in where it got to a point that certain karts became superior to others, which further moved its way into MKWii, in which clearly after you unlock 3-4 bikes, there is ZERO reason to use any other vehicle in the game.  Granted, like I said earlier, if items were as strong and placed fairly standing wise, it wouldn't be as huge of an issue, but there would still be that imbalance.  Adding supers back to that equation would only go further towards making the game even more unfair, and is why I don't think they have returned yet.  Here's hoping they never do.

[Hypershell]

I must disagree with you on that one, PB.  I loved the signature items.  It sucked when previously universal items went signature, this is true, but Koopa Troopa and Toad are the (very unfortunate for you) exceptions, not the rule.  While their particular items blew, the rest of the cast got some overall strong stuff.

And you can't blame the signature mechanic for how the game handles triple ANYTHING.  No getting around that.

However, I will say this: Signatures have better impact when you're building teams.  I'm not sure how I'd feel about them in your traditional single-racer Mario Kart.  In a double kart, you can pick one character you just love and one who has an awesome signature, creating a balanced duo.  In a single kart it would be all-or-nothing, which would make balance concerns more severe.

[Protoman Blues]

I must disagree with you on that one, PB.  I loved the signature items.  It sucked when previously universal items went signature, this is true, but Koopa Troopa and Toad are the (very unfortunate for you) exceptions, not the rule.  While their particular items blew, the rest of the cast got some overall strong stuff.

Doesn't matter.  Love or hate, it still makes it unbalanced.  It's no different than the 3-4 bikes in Mario Kart Wii.  There's no reason to pick your favorite cart over the bikes, because you won't win.  I want Mario Kart back to being a balanced game again.  Superiors karts/bikes, signature moves and supers creates an unbalanced effect in which one character or vehicle will be vastly superior to another.

And you can't blame the signature mechanic for how the game handles triple ANYTHING.  No getting around that.

I don't.  I blame the whole game for that.  It's why I don't play it.

However, I will say this: Signatures have better impact when you're building teams.  I'm not sure how I'd feel about them in your traditional single-racer Mario Kart.  In a double kart, you can pick one character you just love and one who has an awesome signature, creating a balanced duo.  In a single kart it would be all-or-nothing, which would make balance concerns more severe.

And here in lies the problem.  Mario Kart, unless playing a CHOSEN team mode, should never be about teams.  I won't even bring up MKWii's battle mode, because much like X being unlockable/save data in his own series, I don't even acknowledge its existence.  You're absolutely right in that a team of Koopa Troopa & Toad have are unfortunate in Double Dash, but those were our favorite characters.  If we can't even play as our favorite characters, then what's the point?  It means one of us has to sacrifice our favorite character in order to have a chance at winning.  That's not fun.  Also, picking a character you love and a character who has an awesome signature is not a balanced duo.  It's just picking one character you like and another with a great signature to pick up the slack of the character you like's suckitude, in order to give you a chance.  That's not balance, it's acceptance.  It's no different that mastering the 3-4 bikes in MKWii.  You don't pick it because you like it (some might), but you pick it because every other kart sucks compared to it.

[AquaTeamV3]

Well, it's not like anyone had signatures that were absolutely BAD or anything.  Yes, the triple shells could no longer orbit to protect the user, but three green/shells are still just as potent as ever.  The super shroom wasn't the greatest, but it was still functional at the very least.  The other signatures never really felt broken to me, especially with flying blue shells running amuck.  Even the giant Bowser shell had a counter in the Giant Banana, and I never really saw the Chain Chomp as being that game-breaking as I've seen people get killed due to those things.

Looking at it now, the mechanic did work better in team mode, but it's still not a terrible idea and could potentially be patched up.  It's possible to just give people like Toad & Koopa better items.

[Protoman Blues]

Well, it's not like anyone had signatures that were absolutely BAD or anything.  Yes, the triple shells could no longer orbit to protect the user, but three green/shells are still just as potent as ever.  The super shroom wasn't the greatest, but it was still functional at the very least.  The other signatures never really felt broken to me, especially with flying blue shells running amuck.  Even the giant Bowser shell had a counter in the Giant Banana, and I never really saw the Chain Chomp as being that game-breaking as I've seen people get killed due to those things.

No they were not, and I'll explain why.  Like I mentioned earlier up above, Double Dash created a system where one could not get 1st place without the help from the last place racers shooting those flying Spiny Shells you mentioned.   So, when Koopa Troopa got 3 Green Shells in 6th - 7th place, they were absolutely useless.  Also, I didn't say that they were broken.  I said it made the game unbalanced, which it does.  Even if they were to give Koopa Troopa and Toad better signature moves, some characters would still have supers that were better, thus making the game unbalanced.

[AquaTeamV3]

Oh wow, I didn't know that they'd actually give you green ones when you're that far behind.  Initially I figured that you got red ones when you were towards the rear and green ones in 1st-2nd.    That certainly puts thing into perspective.  

Eh, I do see your point as far as signatures go as a whole, though.  In terms of single racers (a la everything but DD), it'd pretty much kill the point of picking a character for their attributes, as you'd be more pressed to pick the one with the better item.  I mean, it's possible to pull both off at the same time; Battle & Chase had the customization system, but even then I'm sure there were balance issues all over the place, as the game was pretty much based on counter-picking according to whatever track you were going to, but I digress.

It's too bad though, the whole balance thing has pretty much been out of whack since Super Circuit.  It's a sad day when you play a racer and you actually dread being in first just because the game's out to get you at that point.

[Solar]

Koopa Troopa's special were either 3 Green Shells or 3 Red Shells, most of the time 3 Green Shells.

You could get triple Red Shells with Koopa? I thought that was Paratroopa's signature and Koopa's was only the green ones.

[Hypershell]

No, they both get triples of either colors.  In Double Dash, there are always two characters with every special.  Sometimes there's an aesthetic difference (Mario/Luigi, Yoshi/Birdo), but they always play the same.

Like I mentioned earlier up above, Double Dash created a system where one could not get 1st place without the help from the last place racers shooting those flying Spiny Shells you mentioned.

The AI in Double Dash is a complete dumbass.  You should frankly not need very much item help to get from 2nd to 1st at all, though I will admit the frequent Blue Shell does help if you got screwed over earlier.  Nevertheless, I really do feel that such complaints are better directed at DS and Wii, which attempted to fix AI while still holding to the same broken item system.

Double Dash's item setup is, IMHO, the testament of gamers needing to be careful what they wish for in regards to rubber-band AI bitching.  Because there are only so many ways you can go with racing AI.  You can make it adapt to the player (MK64), you can make it really freaking hard regardless (F-Zero GX), or you can constantly nuke the leader (Double Dash).  People bitched about 64's AI, and frankly, they shouldn't have.

Even if they were to give Koopa Troopa and Toad better signature moves, some characters would still have supers that were better, thus making the game unbalanced.

What you're describing is inevitable with any degree of customization, though.  And with kart stats having been established for the last three games, I don't think that's going anywhere.  I'd rather see signature items with only minor kart stats as in DD than kart stats that turn the whole game upside-down as in DS and Wii.

a CHOSEN team mode

I just want to say, we need this.  I missed the classic mechanics while playing DD, I admit, but there is something to be said for your own custom character pairings.  I really feel that both modes have enough merit that they should be able to co-exist.

[Mirby]

People bitched about 64's AI, and frankly, they shouldn't have.

I remember reading in an old issue of Tips & Tricks about someone bitching that it was impossible to play. Mainly because, as he claimed, the AI recovered from attacks faster than the player.

I never had that problem; I think that guy sucked. Tips & Tricks went on to point out the adjusting difficulty and basically said that he sucked.

[Hypershell]

Now I remember why Tips & Tricks was my favorite gaming mag...

(well, for that and for their Armored Core section)

[Mirby]

Where do you think I get my avatars? ^_^

Also, Armored Core ended in... I don't remember. Huh. But it was replaced by Final Fantasy World, and the guy who wrote Hard Core went on to write the Mega Man Mania section.

[Protoman Blues]

The AI in Double Dash is a complete dumbass.  You should frankly not need very much item help to get from 2nd to 1st at all, though I will admit the frequent Blue Shell does help if you got screwed over earlier.  Nevertheless, I really do feel that such complaints are better directed at DS and Wii, which attempted to fix AI while still holding to the same broken item system.

If only I had my PB Objection thing.  Either way...

Perhaps I should make myself clear here.  What I'm talking about refers more towards the TRUE fun of Mario Kart, the great joy of racing with friends. I'm not talking about the single player mode, because like you said, the AI is moronic.  Hell, you can see it in Mario Kart Wii with the Blooper, since it 99% of the time NEVER screws over real people racing.  However, even the single player mode benefits more from 5th-8th place racers screwing over 1st place. The problem is, usually YOU are in first place, but it's still 5th-8th place screwing you over, not 2nd-4th.  Also, trust me, my complaints about items & unbalance issues are directed at EVERY MK game post MK64.

Double Dash's item setup is, IMHO, the testament of gamers needing to be careful what they wish for in regards to rubber-band AI bitching.  Because there are only so many ways you can go with racing AI.  You can make it adapt to the player (MK64), you can make it really freaking hard regardless (F-Zero GX), or you can constantly nuke the leader (Double Dash).  People bitched about 64's AI, and frankly, they shouldn't have.

Oh, I agree. I'm sorry, but whoever complained about Rubber Banding in MK64 sucked.  Even with rubber banding, the game was not hard and the AI did not go completely out of it's way to screw you.  Hell, there was more of that in SNES MK, with "character rivals."  God forbid you were Toad, cause Luigi gunned for your ass with Invincible Eyes.
 

What you're describing is inevitable with any degree of customization, though.  And with kart stats having been established for the last three games, I don't think that's going anywhere.  I'd rather see signature items with only minor kart stats as in DD than kart stats that turn the whole game upside-down as in DS and Wii.

What you're describing is not customization.  And you're right, they're not changing kart stats back to pre MK64, and I think the game suffers because of it.  It makes it unbalanced.  Signature moves are also not customization, as they are directly tied in to what character you choose, again adding in an unbalancing effect, no matter how minor.  Customization is what ModNation Racers is all about, and it's done perfectly.  You can customize the look of your racers, your tracks, and the design of your kart, but in NO way does it change the game.  It's balanced and after playing it, it even further makes me realize what Mario Kart has lost, and it's sad.

I just want to say, we need this.  I missed the classic mechanics while playing DD, I admit, but there is something to be said for your own custom character pairings.  I really feel that both modes have enough merit that they should be able to co-exist.

Again, the only way I would accept this is if both the items and the karts themselves were balanced, with no signature moves.  However, since we both know that's not going to happen, I don't want it. 

[Hypershell]

What you're describing is not customization.

Bad choice of words on my part, but you know what I mean.  It adds an extra layer to player preference.  It just happens to suck if that extra layer conflicts with your love of characters; as we already established, Toad fans got royally screwed in Double Dash (seriously, the Triple Mushroom was better).

As far as any non-gameplay-relevant personalization goes......I want icons back.  I really do.  Miis are fun, but not enough.  Especially if you happen to, you know, like Mario characters.

[Jericho]

Just wanted to chime in and say that this is the most excellent Mario Kart mechanics discussion I've seen in years. If I had anything to add, I'd make a mention on how the terrible bump physics of MKWii did a lot more to hinder older fans while introducing newer fans to a very questionable design choice. You guys have already done a great job of covering that though.

[Protoman Blues]

Bad choice of words on my part, but you know what I mean.  It adds an extra layer to player preference.  It just happens to suck if that extra layer conflicts with your love of characters; as we already established, Toad fans got royally screwed in Double Dash (seriously, the Triple Mushroom was better).

You're right, it does add an extra layer to player preference.

I think the only real way to satisfy everyone (although I might be the only one with a problem) is for Nintendo to go all out in their next game.  Since they're not going to take away the already common place aspects of the newer series, then the only logical choice is to actually have a choice.  Like I always tend to say, you can NEVER have enough options in a game.  Make different gameplay modes, similar to what Brawl does.

Standard Mode
Your basic Mario Kart.  Karts only with slight differences in weight, turning, acceleration, and speed, but no one with an advantage.  Essentially Mario Kart 64.

Double Kart Mode
Double karts & characters, ideal for team mode and racing.  Different looking karts (maybe) but with absolutely no character difference to them.  Essentially Mario Kart Double Dash.

New Age Mode
Karts & Bikes, different handling for different karts.  Essentially Mario Kart Wii.

Also, like Brawl, make it where certain items can be switched on or off.  Same with modes, as in YOU CHOOSE YOUR GODDAMN MIRROR MODE OR NOT WHEN RACING OTHER PEOPLE.

As far as any non-gameplay-relevant personalization goes......I want icons back.  I really do.  Miis are fun, but not enough.  Especially if you happen to, you know, like Mario characters.

Agreed!

[Fxeni]

I like the idea of modes, although I'd have to chime in that perhaps "New Age Mode" would most likely be the "Standard Mode", and the one you have listed would probably be something along the lines of "Classic Mode". Just seems more likely to me that it would turn out that way, is all.

[Protoman Blues]

You're probably right actually.

[Hypershell]

Like I always tend to say, you can NEVER have enough options in a game.

Very true.

Of course, they're not going to want to reprogram physics for every game mode.  The way I see it, though, a Classic Mode that bars kart selection is plenty feasible using a vehicle setup such as MKWii's; simply mandate that all must use their respective Standard kart (this is basically what MKDS does in Battle Mode).

Same with modes, as in YOU CHOOSE YOUR GODDAMN MIRROR MODE OR NOT WHEN RACING OTHER PEOPLE.

Thank you.

Seriously, what the hell were they thinking?  Random engine classes, bizarre, but acceptable; but random MIRROR?!  Oi.

[Protoman Blues]

Of course, they're not going to want to reprogram physics for every game mode.  The way I see it, though, a Classic Mode that bars kart selection is plenty feasible using a vehicle setup such as MKWii's; simply mandate that all must use their respective Standard kart (this is basically what MKDS does in Battle Mode).

Fair enough.  As long as all the standard karts are balanced, I see nothing wrong with this.

[Dexter Dexter]

One more point of mine I wanted to add to this thread, and this time it goes for almost all of the Mario Kart series. It's about the number of laps on almost all of the tracks in Mario Kart. WHY 3 LAPS ON ALMOST ALL THOSE TRACKS?! It's ridiculous, it's not fun, so change it already for Jesus Christ's sake. Sometimes I just have this urge to drive around the track more than 3 times, and I want to do something about that urge. I mean, I am happy that Double Dash did it, but DD sucks. The next Mario Kart that comes out better have tracks that have 2 laps or more than 3.

I'm done here. For now.