Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

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Offline Flame

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Reply #1075 on: May 30, 2010, 04:57:34 AM
Agreed. Im eager to play it.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #1076 on: May 30, 2010, 01:06:26 PM
Agreed. Im eager to play it.
I just hope we get a remake in the vein of Rocket Knight, for example. That captured the old feel, and was pretty damn good.



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Reply #1077 on: June 01, 2010, 03:14:26 AM
You know what? I just realized something about that little Curve Issue people were talking about quite a while back in the thread, with the curve on the hill that goes straight down. Chaotix had that too, and that game was good, so I don't see why people complain about it so much.



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Reply #1078 on: June 01, 2010, 11:38:47 AM
You know what? I just realized something about that little Curve Issue people were talking about quite a while back in the thread, with the curve on the hill that goes straight down. Chaotix had that too, and that game was good, so I don't see why people complain about it so much.
I do remember playing Chaotix and thinking it had quite alot of issues, though. The underpopulated labyrinthic levels, for one. And the fact that you could just pick Charmy and fly around looking for the objective. It was a loooooong time ago, though. Wonder if it was emulation issues.



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Reply #1079 on: June 01, 2010, 02:04:45 PM
I played Chaotix on an emu not too long ago and if there any issues then i didn't notice them.



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Reply #1080 on: June 01, 2010, 02:49:09 PM
Yeah, I had fun with Chaotix... then again I usually used Vector and Knux (or Mighty and Knux). No Charmy for me... stupid bee...

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Reply #1081 on: June 01, 2010, 03:35:16 PM
Oh God.
Knuckles Chaotix... I beat the game with my friend. IT WAS [tornado fang]ing AWESOME!
We played few times more, tough never beating again.
Al lthe laughs we had.
I like Chaotix. I often picked Mighty.



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Reply #1082 on: June 01, 2010, 04:18:16 PM
I just played as Sonic and Knuckles when i got my hands on the hacked version.

Vector and Knuckles for me  owob



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Reply #1083 on: June 01, 2010, 09:37:54 PM
I played Chaotix on an emu not too long ago and if there any issues then i didn't notice them.
Then... I guess it wasn't issues, I just didn't like the game. XD

Seriously, is Chaotix supposed to be just like that? A bigass labyrinth, you just keep stopping and boosting, no enemies at all, just constant rubber banding? And picking your character through a luck-based setting? O_o



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Reply #1084 on: June 01, 2010, 10:33:22 PM
Then... I guess it wasn't issues, I just didn't like the game. XD

Seriously, is Chaotix supposed to be just like that? A bigass labyrinth, you just keep stopping and boosting, no enemies at all, just constant rubber banding? And picking your character through a luck-based setting? O_o

Not luck if you're just awesome at hitting buttons, or if you have the item that lets you pick your characters. Now the stage selecting was completely random, but it didn't really matter.

(I usually played as Mighty with Knuckles as my partner, Vector, while awesome is too slow to start, Espio is a good replacement for Knuckles, I hate Charmy, and Bomb and Heavy need no Mention.)



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Reply #1085 on: June 01, 2010, 11:23:54 PM
Not luck if you're just awesome at hitting buttons, or if you have the item that lets you pick your characters. Now the stage selecting was completely random, but it didn't really matter.

(I usually played as Mighty with Knuckles as my partner, Vector, while awesome is too slow to start, Espio is a good replacement for Knuckles, I hate Charmy, and Bomb and Heavy need no Mention.)
The whole thing just seemed like one big empty place to me. No enemies, no action, no interactible scenery of any sort... Just... racing in this big maze and trying to find a way out. Felt lonely.



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Reply #1086 on: June 02, 2010, 03:30:44 AM
You know what? I just realized something about that little Curve Issue people were talking about quite a while back in the thread, with the curve on the hill that goes straight down. Chaotix had that too, and that game was good, so I don't see why people complain about it so much.
Any classic game not titled STH1 had Spin Dash, yet people [sonic slicer] about Homing Attack giving you free speed.

Simply put, people will complain about anything and everything regarding Sonic, regardless of whether or not there is any sense to their criticisms whatsoever  (GREEN EYES!  YOU BASTARDS! ::) ).  That's how it's been ever since Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, quite a ways before we were actually subject to the "horrors" of new-age Sonic Team (and I use that term loosely; having playing NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams, "bad" in the context of Sonic Team has been forever redefined).

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Reply #1087 on: June 02, 2010, 03:50:20 AM
Any classic game not titled STH1 had Spin Dash, yet people [sonic slicer] about Homing Attack giving you free speed.

Simply put, people will complain about anything and everything regarding Sonic, regardless of whether or not there is any sense to their criticisms whatsoever  (GREEN EYES!  YOU BASTARDS! ::) ).  That's how it's been ever since Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, quite a ways before we were actually subject to the "horrors" of new-age Sonic Team (and I use that term loosely; having playing NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams, "bad" in the context of Sonic Team has been forever redefined).
You know what's ironic? Nights: Journey of Dreams was actually good by Sonic Team standards. The final level, for example, was slightly playable.



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Reply #1088 on: June 02, 2010, 04:08:17 AM
I can only imagine our difference in Sonic Team standards stems from my never playing STH2006, because I do not *AT ALL* agree with that.

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Reply #1089 on: June 02, 2010, 04:31:48 AM
I can only imagine our difference in Sonic Team standards stems from my never playing STH2006, because I do not *AT ALL* agree with that.
Let's see what they've done.

- Sonic Heroes (decent game. Shitty when you put it to normal standards, but nowadays, it's a breath of fresh air)
- Shadow the Hedgehog (OH MY GOD THIS IS SO DAMN HORRIBLE. Seriously, the vehicles handle like something in Big Rigs and making the objectives of the level OPPOSITE to those of the gameplay? A game about collection with a speed boost special through a linear level? A game about not killing certain enemies with a "kill all" special? WHAT THE HELL. It's like Sonic Team made an RPG where to traverse down the world map you must fall through it like a Tetris block. And if you missed anything, tough luck. Go back through sparce teleporters.
- Sonic the Hedgehog (Horrible, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE game. It's not a game, it's a pile of bugs. Not a single level is playable. Not one single part can be salvaged. It's probably the worst game I've ever, ever, ever played in my whole life. And I've played Big Rigs, Aquaman and ET)
- Sonic and the Secret Rings (surprisingly decent. It's... not really what we expected, but it's not a bad game, really. If only the controls were all on buttons...)
- Sonic Unleashed (I think you all know my opinion on this, so no reason to illustrate it further)
- Sonic and the Black Knight (a game free of bugs, but also can be finished in half an hour and it pretty much sucks. Can be completed by pressing up at all times, flailing around like an idiot and doing a timing minigame for the last bosses).


So, yeah. Nights sucked, but at least it wasn't marred with bugs. It just... sucked. The controls for the flying portions were okay, but the key-nabbing was stupid. Still, it was a bit fun to fly around in a few levels. Kids' gameplay WAS HORRIBLE. Specially for the fact that it was forced on us, unlike the original Nights.



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Reply #1090 on: June 02, 2010, 05:42:39 AM
Any classic game not titled STH1 had Spin Dash, yet people [sonic slicer] about Homing Attack giving you free speed.

There is a difference, though.

The spin dash (at least in its proper form from the 16-bit and 8-bit games), was meant to play to Sonic's "pinball" like nature. Classic Sonic, which used to be all about momentum, actually made it believable that Sonic was basically a pinball with legs. In that light, the spin dash was basically akin to having the option to "pull back the lever/flip the flipper" and have an option to get Sonic back to speed.

The Homing Dash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a rather lazy game play mechanic that was designed because Sonic Team likely couldn't be bothered to answer two critical question when it comes to modern Sonic game design: hit detection, and an actual momentum.

The first stance is a "natch" response: Homing Attack is basically a "win button", such that it circumvents a need to actually have to do the work necessary for real hit detection. You hit the button twice, and Sonic will automatically attack whatever the game deems is a "target".

The other stance is another "no [parasitic bomb]" thing. Modern Sonic games are all about speed. So in this era where Sonic can get automatic speed by just pressing a button without even needing to stop, the fact that the Homing Attack is able to help in that same avenue is just another thing that highlights that Sonic is what he is currently.


Again, none of this would be so bad, if Sonic 4 was allowed to actually be a classic-style, momentum based Sonic. The fact that we now have Sonic Colors on the Wii and DS, which both serve to continue the "pure speed" Sonic of the modern day era, seems to defeat the point of Sonic 4 needing a Homing Attack. 



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Reply #1091 on: June 02, 2010, 06:34:51 AM
Especially since, as Flash pointed out, they're basically Unleashed 2 and Rush 3, HUD and all.

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Reply #1092 on: June 02, 2010, 11:59:31 AM
There is a difference, though.

The spin dash (at least in its proper form from the 16-bit and 8-bit games), was meant to play to Sonic's "pinball" like nature. Classic Sonic, which used to be all about momentum, actually made it believable that Sonic was basically a pinball with legs. In that light, the spin dash was basically akin to having the option to "pull back the lever/flip the flipper" and have an option to get Sonic back to speed.

The Homing Dash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a rather lazy game play mechanic that was designed because Sonic Team likely couldn't be bothered to answer two critical question when it comes to modern Sonic game design: hit detection, and an actual momentum.

The first stance is a "natch" response: Homing Attack is basically a "win button", such that it circumvents a need to actually have to do the work necessary for real hit detection. You hit the button twice, and Sonic will automatically attack whatever the game deems is a "target".

The other stance is another "no [parasitic bomb]" thing. Modern Sonic games are all about speed. So in this era where Sonic can get automatic speed by just pressing a button without even needing to stop, the fact that the Homing Attack is able to help in that same avenue is just another thing that highlights that Sonic is what he is currently.


Again, none of this would be so bad, if Sonic 4 was allowed to actually be a classic-style, momentum based Sonic. The fact that we now have Sonic Colors on the Wii and DS, which both serve to continue the "pure speed" Sonic of the modern day era, seems to defeat the point of Sonic 4 needing a Homing Attack. 
The Homing Attack isn't a "win button". It's simply a mechanic that helps to play 3D Sonic games.

In 3D Mario games, the developers thought it necessary to give direct melee/water attacks to Mario, even though many of the common enemies can be defeated by his regular jump. Why didn't they just keep the jump as the only way to defeat them? Because jumping is not so easy in 3D. And aiming your jumps, much less. Sonic attacked most of his enemies by jumping or spinning into them, and back in Sonic Adventure, doing this all the time would be way more frustrating. The homing attack fixed it. It made 3D Sonic playable at high speeds without you having to fall into a pit. Of course, ever since the Adventure games, no game did Homing Attacks well. >_> Which leads me to think it's one of the reasons Sonic games have pretty much sucked lately.

...I can understand your stand that it has no place in 3D Sonic games. But if developers have a chance to make it work, I don't see what the problem is.



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Reply #1093 on: June 02, 2010, 11:31:52 PM
The Homing Attack isn't a "win button". It's simply a mechanic that helps to play 3D Sonic games.

In 3D Mario games, the developers thought it necessary to give direct melee/water attacks to Mario, even though many of the common enemies can be defeated by his regular jump. Why didn't they just keep the jump as the only way to defeat them? Because jumping is not so easy in 3D. And aiming your jumps, much less. Sonic attacked most of his enemies by jumping or spinning into them, and back in Sonic Adventure, doing this all the time would be way more frustrating. The homing attack fixed it. It made 3D Sonic playable at high speeds without you having to fall into a pit. Of course, ever since the Adventure games, no game did Homing Attacks well. >_> Which leads me to think it's one of the reasons Sonic games have pretty much sucked lately.

...I can understand your stand that it has no place in 3D Sonic games. But if developers have a chance to make it work, I don't see what the problem is.

I have to agree here. The homing jump was a good natural progression for the series leaping to 3D. It is a little overkill being borrowed back into 2D, though. On a related note, I think Rush's boost meter filled that natural progression nicely in the 2D games. I wish Rush Adventure wasn't filled with useless crap, and was more like Rush.


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Reply #1094 on: June 03, 2010, 01:39:10 AM
The Homing Attack isn't a "win button". It's simply a mechanic that helps to play 3D Sonic games.

In 3D Mario games, the developers thought it necessary to give direct melee/water attacks to Mario, even though many of the common enemies can be defeated by his regular jump. Why didn't they just keep the jump as the only way to defeat them? Because jumping is not so easy in 3D. And aiming your jumps, much less. Sonic attacked most of his enemies by jumping or spinning into them, and back in Sonic Adventure, doing this all the time would be way more frustrating. The homing attack fixed it. It made 3D Sonic playable at high speeds without you having to fall into a pit.

It IS a win button though, in that you can spam it with no real penalty/recoil time in the least. You press the button over and over, while Sonic does things automatically until there's no more targets in his immediate range. 8D

At least with the various things that occurred in the 3D Marios, it wasn't so much a "free pass". Melee attacks in 64 required you to get up close and personal, with danger to yourself still present, since Mario didn't have invincibility frames on his moves. FLUDD had, fundamentally speaking, "limited ammunition". The Galaxies had the spin attack which had a "reload" time before you could use it again.

For Homing Attack to be a base ability available to the central character of a platformer without upgrades/power-ups, it's a pretty busted ability, admittedly. And if the best that Sega could do to "account" for the ability is integrate "enemy bridges" as a part of the level design, then that's just another facet that represents something's not quite right with the overall design of the game/games.

If Super Castlevania's "limp whip" isn't immune from this type of critique (and I love that game to pieces), then the Homing Attack certainly is not something that can be ignored either, in my eyes.



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Reply #1095 on: June 03, 2010, 02:03:32 AM
It IS a win button though, in that you can spam it with no real penalty/recoil time in the least. You press the button over and over, while Sonic does things automatically until there's no more targets in his immediate range. 8D

At least with the various things that occurred in the 3D Marios, it wasn't so much a "free pass". Melee attacks in 64 required you to get up close and personal, with danger to yourself still present, since Mario didn't have invincibility frames on his moves. FLUDD had, fundamentally speaking, "limited ammunition". The Galaxies had the spin attack which had a "reload" time before you could use it again.

For Homing Attack to be a base ability available to the central character of a platformer without upgrades/power-ups, it's a pretty busted ability, admittedly. And if the best that Sega could do to "account" for the ability is integrate "enemy bridges" as a part of the level design, then that's just another facet that represents something's not quite right with the overall design of the game/games.

If Super Castlevania's "limp whip" isn't immune from this type of critique (and I love that game to pieces), then the Homing Attack certainly is not something that can be ignored either, in my eyes.
Sega got around this by placing stuff like the electric shielded enemies and the robots that had shields and needed a summersault to the legs to die. It's not like the homing attack is invincible either. If you use it without aim just to get velocity, you might lose control and fall off whatever platform you're in. If you have any other idea of how to control speedy spin jumps to kill enemies with precision, you have my attention. But as far as I'm concerned, the homing attack is simply a means to play the game, just like the other attacks. SA1 and 2 had levels adapted for the homing attack and Sonic's other abilities. They worked.



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Reply #1096 on: June 03, 2010, 08:29:40 AM
If you have any other idea of how to control speedy spin jumps to kill enemies with precision, you have my attention.

That's the thing, though. The way that Sonic was designed in 2D was what made it so that it became even more of a challenge to try and convert him into the 3D realm. What they've been trying to do for the last decade is basically just take some aspects of the 2D formula, focus on the speed portion of that and take into the 3D realm. It hasn't worked nearly as well as it could have, and the Homing Attack, much like every thing else, comes off as a half-assed mechanic that has been allowed to fester for too long. 

To me, the simple answer would have been to take advantage of a model that works: any where from Mario's 3D outings, to Dante in DMC, you get a a good idea of how to adequately control a character in 3D space, with precision AND speed (especially in Dante's case, where going between a multitude of foes, killing them in a speedy fashion is actually part of the game itself).

Since they seem to have a love for making Sonic do things beyond just running and jumping now-a-days any way, I would have thought a well done, easy to grasp melee aspect would have been a part of the mix long before even the likes of the Werehog or Sword-wielding reared its head (and doing it poorly, no less). The way Sonic performs in Brawl is pretty much how I could have imagined some thing of this sort employed in the actual games a long time ago. Bonus points if they could have integrated Sonic's some what playful/daredevil nature into such a thing, like the anime-cuts in Sonic CD seemed to hint at.

If they really wanted 3D/new-style Sonic to be different beast altogether (much like 3D Mario is to its 2D counter-part), they should have taken advantage of the new medium as a way for Sonic to do things he couldn't do in the 2D space, and furthermore, things that could ONLY work in the 3D realm. But more than a decade after Sonic has "officially" come into the 3D reality, and he's STILL trying to do a lot of the exact same things as before.

So, I can't stress it enough: Sega has done a lot to undermine the potential that Sonic could have had in the 3D arena. But it is what it is, at this point.



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Reply #1097 on: June 03, 2010, 12:47:21 PM
That's the thing, though. The way that Sonic was designed in 2D was what made it so that it became even more of a challenge to try and convert him into the 3D realm. What they've been trying to do for the last decade is basically just take some aspects of the 2D formula, focus on the speed portion of that and take into the 3D realm. It hasn't worked nearly as well as it could have, and the Homing Attack, much like every thing else, comes off as a half-assed mechanic that has been allowed to fester for too long. 

To me, the simple answer would have been to take advantage of a model that works: any where from Mario's 3D outings, to Dante in DMC, you get a a good idea of how to adequately control a character in 3D space, with precision AND speed (especially in Dante's case, where going between a multitude of foes, killing them in a speedy fashion is actually part of the game itself).

Since they seem to have a love for making Sonic do things beyond just running and jumping now-a-days any way, I would have thought a well done, easy to grasp melee aspect would have been a part of the mix long before even the likes of the Werehog or Sword-wielding reared its head (and doing it poorly, no less). The way Sonic performs in Brawl is pretty much how I could have imagined some thing of this sort employed in the actual games a long time ago. Bonus points if they could have integrated Sonic's some what playful/daredevil nature into such a thing, like the anime-cuts in Sonic CD seemed to hint at.

If they really wanted 3D/new-style Sonic to be different beast altogether (much like 3D Mario is to its 2D counter-part), they should have taken advantage of the new medium as a way for Sonic to do things he couldn't do in the 2D space, and furthermore, things that could ONLY work in the 3D realm. But more than a decade after Sonic has "officially" come into the 3D reality, and he's STILL trying to do a lot of the exact same things as before.

So, I can't stress it enough: Sega has done a lot to undermine the potential that Sonic could have had in the 3D arena. But it is what it is, at this point.
The melee attack wouldn't work well from a gameplay perspective. Remember how most people who can't direct Sonic when playing Brawl, just spin him all over the place, and many times fall off platforms. The homing attack is necessary, because Sonic games have never been about very tough enemies. They've been about straight progression. And no, Sonic is trying to do much more than before. It's the very notion that they haven't been able to make him do more than before, that makes the games bad in the first place. They tried to work weapons into Shadow, sword attacks into Black Knight, and even psychic attacks into Silver's gameplay in 06. But it failed, because Sonic works better as a character of straight progression, and the homing attacks make sense. They've basically like a lock-on mechanism, doesn't mean instant win. He uses it for progression, mostly. You gave an example of Mario and Dante. But it's much different. They don't move at the speed Sonic does, to which would be much difficult to implement a straight combat mechanic that isn't locked on.



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Reply #1098 on: June 03, 2010, 07:45:35 PM
The melee attack wouldn't work well from a gameplay perspective. Remember how most people who can't direct Sonic when playing Brawl, just spin him all over the place, and many times fall off platforms.

Sonic may not be the best character in vBrawl (in Brawl+ and Brawl-, that's another story! 8D), but the basic thing that any body who dares to main him could say? You don't try to spin all over the place. You use Sonic's speed, range and array of attacks to your advantage in a fashion that allows him to "hit and away", frustrating the opposition because a good Sonic should rarely be cornered, much less actually be hit. I at least believe Sonic controlled well, in that game.

Quote
The homing attack is necessary, because Sonic games have never been about very tough enemies. They've been about straight progression. And no, Sonic is trying to do much more than before. It's the very notion that they haven't been able to make him do more than before, that makes the games bad in the first place.

Incorrect statement in my eyes, and I'll tell you why.

The notion that Sonic that has been doing more than ever is NOT what's inherently wrong. It's actually based on the notion that Sega has been forcing Sonic to wear so many hats, with no real rhyme+reason to go along with it.

Pretty much every "gimmicky" thing that Sonic has had in his games from these last few years, from the extra play-styles/characters in the Adventures, the "Teams" in Heroes, to the Werehog and Sword-wielding in his most recent offerings, has NOT been given the kind of quality control that it could have been. And that is where the problem lies. Nothing is giving the time it needs to truly develop, and Sega is just as quick to force the team to focus on some new gimmick for a new game.

Case in point: they were quoted on saying that "we'd be seeing more of the Werehog". Well...here are, with yet another Sonic release, and the Werehog has yet to be seen (and likely won't be) in Sonic Colors, which focuses on yet ANOTHER set of gimmicks.

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You gave an example of Mario and Dante. But it's much different. They don't move at the speed Sonic does, to which would be much difficult to implement a straight combat mechanic that isn't locked on.

Again, I think the main thing is that it's a challenge unto itself to ascertain just how "difficult" it would be, until it was placed in the hands of a more competent development team with a decent amount of dev. time to its credit. Even Sonic Team was capable of some definite good ideas, such as the "Bounce" ability that Sonic had in SA2/Battle. In my opinion, it was a good answer to Mario's "Butt Stomp", as well as an ability that guaranteed how Sonic would move in a 3D space: straight up, straight down, unless there was other DI from the user. You can't get too much more precise than that, and control of Sonic remained firmly in your hands, and not trusted to the lock-on attributes predetermined by the game itself.

That's a basic ability that could have been honed over games, and served to develop Sonic's own moveset that much more. But...wouldn't you know? It was taken away, and later replaced with other things by the very next game... -u-'



Offline Mirby

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Reply #1099 on: June 03, 2010, 08:13:51 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that you keep referring to this stuff as "gimmicky" when the little things in most sidescrolling Sonic games that let you get air and such are called Gimmicks?

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything