Topic: Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (Wii, PS3, 360, iPhone)

[Protoman Blues]

But the point applies. people used to ENJOY getting their asses handed to them in ames, becuse it made you want to play till you got through the section. The ragequits and all were just part of the experience. Now, one death and people complain the game is flawed, or is too hard. they blame level design, game mechanics, controls, camera, the developers, whatever- Whatever happened to trial and error in videogames?

Really?  Well, perhaps I'm just speaking for myself here, but as a much, much older gamer than the two of you, let me tell you that if a game ever pissed me off to the point of "ragequit" status, I stopped playing it and never played it again.  Rage should never be a part of the equation of a leisure time activity, in my view.  If I'm not enjoying myself playing something that is made for the SOLE purpose of enjoyment, then I see no point in playing it.  Ever.

The patience of gamers these days is either small or nonexistent, sadly enough. The older games like us, Flame, know what it's like to have to go through a challenge (apparently, Nintendo remembers too judging by Grandmaster Galaxy) in order to do something. It's something that the newer generation of gamers knows nothing about due to cookie-cutter licensing and games with the difficulty so low a blind gerbil could beat most of them. It's just part of the sad state of gaming nowadays.

There's a difference between something being challenging and something being cheap or just badly made.  I'm 123 stars into Super Mario Galaxy 2, and like the first one, the game is challenging, but still pretty easy in the long run.  As for the "sad state of gaming" you mentioned, personally I think gaming is at an all time high level right now.  There are so many games I wish to pick up right now, but can't due to time & money.  

[Flame]

Hmm. Milage may vary I guess. I know that a ragequit never kept me away from a game for too long.

[Archer]

Older? Im not THAT old.

indeed. i don't get how one could make that mistake

[Mirby]

PB: What I meant was the sad state of difficulty in gaming. Your example regarding SMG2 still being somewhat easy proved it. I miss the days when games tested every facet of your skill with each level.

[Protoman Blues]

PB: What I meant was the sad state of difficulty in gaming. Your example regarding SMG2 still being somewhat easy proved it. I miss the days when games tested every facet of your skill with each level.

I'm curious as to what older games you think tested every facet of your skill with each level.

[Mirby]

I'd say the original Mega Man, of course. Several Konami games from the NES era as well; the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles game; Garfield - Caught in the Act... to name a few.

[Kieran]

I'm with PB.  There's challenging, then there's artificial difficulty.  The original Sonic games were challenging because you had to have quick reflexes and be able to scan the terrain ahead of you on the fly.  Meanwhile, there's a stage in Unleashed that will dump you into a bottomless pit every couple SECONDS, and there's one so close to the start line that you don't even have time to react.

The stage design was just shitty as a whole.  There were a few fun ones, but overall they were poorly done.  Sonic moving so fast that it's impossible to actually see any details because of the motion blur didn't really help.  I think Sonic reached what should've been his peak speed in Sonic Adventure 1.  And don't even get me started on the medal collection thing.  That's the reason I never finished the game.

All that said, it looks like Dimps is avoiding that problem with Sonic 4.  I'm not 100% sold on the stage layouts from what I've seen, but I do think I'll enjoy the game a lot more than the last two or three Sonic games I've played.

[Bueno Excelente]

Lol, totally forgot bout that for a sec. 8DIm just saying, is all. I mean, I recall people always complaining about newer Castlevanias "because you can just grind to level up, and how theres no challenge and it doesnt require skill and strategy like the originals because of that"

Granted, Sonic isnt Castlevania. But the point applies. people used to ENJOY getting their asses handed to them in games, because it made you want to play till you got through the section. The ragequits and all were just part of the experience. Now, one death and people complain the game is flawed, or is too hard. they blame level design, game mechanics, controls, camera, the developers, whatever- Whatever happened to trial and error in videogames?

If I want a challenge, I'll go play Demon's Souls or Ninja Gaiden. If I want to die repeatedly until I memorize all the stupid obstacles in a level I am forced to speed through because this game has no [tornado fang]ing sense of speed or actual design quality. In the first level, a bottomless pit is put right before a bridge, it's near-impossible to see if you're going through the level as fast as you can, and it's in the worst possible place to put a pit. But it's there, and if you fall, you die. Why? Bad level design. Level design is supposed to be logical and be a challenge to you. Not a chore.

[HokutoNoBen]

Granted, Sonic isnt Castlevania. But the point applies. people used to ENJOY getting their asses handed to them in games, because it made you want to play till you got through the section. The ragequits and all were just part of the experience. Now, one death and people complain the game is flawed, or is too hard. they blame level design, game mechanics, controls, camera, the developers, whatever- Whatever happened to trial and error in videogames?

As a guy who loves the likes of "hard-boiled" games like the Rockman Zero series, Viewtiful Joe, God Hand, Earth Defense Force, so many NES classics and even more recently with Bayonetta, I am no stranger to games that pit my abilities to the test.

My only thing? The game needs to deliver on its end, as well. Controls need to be tight. Camera needs to work with me, and not against me. Level/Enemy design should offer a bonafide challenge, without being "cheap". The game mechanics need to all work together for good, such that if/when "death" happens, it's nothing more than MY BAD. I can respect a game that has a propensity to beat my ass 7 ways til Sunday, provided it's done more to be well-made.

THAT is not something that all Sonic games, especially those made in the last decade, can claim. They're NOT well-made games. A number of the errors that have even plagued more recent entrants like Black Knight and Unleashed, have been aspects that have been plauged 3D Sonic games since Adventure. Camera controls, hit detection, level design/enemy placement and then of course....physics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze582VGaAkY&playnext_from=TL&videos=8d6QuyHoLoE

Some thing like the above draws attention to a very thing that has plagued the majority of Sonic games made in the last few years. They're not even trying to make anything close to "momentum-based" speed game play, any more. It's all event-based triggers now. That's why Sonic can just go for a "stroll" in 06/The Fresh One, as you saw demonstrated, and do the "Spider-Hog" act in the Rushes and this leaked footage of Sonic 4 (gifs posted pages ago).

If Sonic Team and Dimps just want to do more to make Sonic into speed-run based "thrill rides" from here on in, they could at least make sure that their games are well made in that area. But they don't even do that much!

[Bueno Excelente]

As a guy who loves the likes of "hard-boiled" games like the Rockman Zero series, Viewtiful Joe, God Hand, Earth Defense Force, so many NES classics and even more recently with Bayonetta, I am no stranger to games that pit my abilities to the test.

My only thing? The game needs to deliver on its end, as well. Controls need to be tight. Camera needs to work with me, and not against me. Level/Enemy design should offer a bonafide challenge, without being "cheap". The game mechanics need to all work together for good, such that if/when "death" happens, it's nothing more than MY BAD. I can respect a game that has a propensity to beat my ass 7 ways til Sunday, provided it's done more to be well-made.

THAT is not something that all Sonic games, especially those made in the last decade, can claim. They're NOT well-made games. A number of the errors that have even plagued more recent entrants like Black Knight and Unleashed, have been aspects that have been plauged 3D Sonic games since Adventure. Camera controls, hit detection, level design/enemy placement and then of course....physics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze582VGaAkY&playnext_from=TL&videos=8d6QuyHoLoE

Some thing like the above draws attention to a very thing that has plagued the majority of Sonic games made in the last few years. They're not even trying to make anything close to "momentum-based" speed game play, any more. It's all event-based triggers now. That's why Sonic can just go for a "stroll" in 06/The Fresh One, as you saw demonstrated, and do the "Spider-Hog" act in the Rushes and this leaked footage of Sonic 4 (gifs posted pages ago).

If Sonic Team and Dimps just want to do more to make Sonic into speed-run based "thrill rides" from here on in, they could at least make sure that their games are well made in that area. But they don't even do that much!

YES. EXACTLY. RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Thank you. And Secret Rings actually showed that it knew how to make "always run"-based gaming. Its only fault was to make the turning so incredibly frustrating.

[Flame]

I should Get Secret rings one of these days.

[Turian]

::shudders at secret rings rock songs:: Seriously got on my nerves.

[Archer]

::shudders at secret rings rock songs:: Seriously got on my nerves.

then mute it

[Bueno Excelente]

I should Get Secret rings one of these days.

It's fast, but it's not gameplay-breakingly fast. The jumps are well done since you have to kinda charge them, in a way, and it's a whole different kind of gameplay. There's isn't "platforming", but more of a sense of obstacle course. The homing attacks feel natural and the bosses are fun. Ifrit and Erazor are really good bosses.

::shudders at secret rings rock songs:: Seriously got on my nerves.

WHO GONNA ROCK DA PLACE

PLACE

PLACE

[Protoman Blues]

YES. EXACTLY. RIGHT ON THE MONEY. Thank you. And Secret Rings actually showed that it knew how to make "always run"-based gaming. Its only fault was to make the turning so incredibly frustrating.

Actually, I had no real problem with turning in Secret Rings.  My only issues were moving backwards and grinding on top of the railings.  Other than that, I was a huge fan of the game.

::shudders at secret rings rock songs:: Seriously got on my nerves.

MAKE BELIEVES REBORN!

[Turian]

MAKE BELIEVES REBORN!

Thats the one! ::runs screaming into the night::

[Protoman Blues]

Thats the one! ::runs screaming into the night::

How dare you!  That song is all kinds of awesome.

[Bueno Excelente]

Actually, I had no real problem with turning in Secret Rings.  My only issues were moving backwards and grinding on top of the railings.  Other than that, I was a huge fan of the game.

MAKE BELIEVES REBORN!

Seriously? Wouldn't you rather have a... you know... actual d-pad controlling how you moved to the sides? I thought the movement was incredibly annoying in an otherwise decent game.

[Protoman Blues]

Seriously? Wouldn't you rather have a... you know... actual d-pad controlling how you moved to the sides? I thought the movement was incredibly annoying in an otherwise decent game.

Honestly I really had no problem with the movement of it.  Just moving backwards.

[Bueno Excelente]

Honestly I really had no problem with the movement of it.  Just moving backwards.

It was very unresponsive when I played it. And annoying in the Erazor fight, when you had to have certain quick reactions.

[Turian]

How dare you!  That song is all kinds of awesome.

Not when it plays for the millionth time!! Too much of a good thing makes it bad!

[Bueno Excelente]

Not when it plays for the millionth time!! Too much of a good thing makes it bad!

You probably just left the main menu open for too long while you browsed for something.

[Protoman Blues]

It was very unresponsive when I played it. And annoying in the Erazor fight, when you had to have certain quick reactions.

I just used the Time Slow in the Erazor fight.  It made it much easier.

[Kieran]

I still hate the in-game version of Seven Rings In Hand.  The guy singing sounds utterly lifeless.  At least Gioeli puts his heart into it.

[Protoman Blues]

I still hate the in-game version of Seven Rings In Hand.  The guy singing sounds utterly lifeless.  At least Gioeli puts his heart into it.

I disagree.  It sounds more like he's whining it.