Ancient Theories/Fanon

The Great Gonzo · 91005

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Offline Zan

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Reply #375 on: October 11, 2009, 02:30:31 AM
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Funny, the manual didn't bring the X, EXE, and ZX series into this...
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Stupid translations?  That's canon.  Maybe not literal, but it's canon.  Never said it was great.  Saying it exists.

No, really, without me being rhetoric or sarcastic.. I will ask this seriously: how are we to reconcile multiple different names for the same character, which is the true canon one?

Likewise, I must seriously ask: What are robot-like humanoids and what is the land of Monsteropolis they are charge of? How does that compare to what we see in the game and especially its remake Powered Up?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #376 on: October 11, 2009, 02:31:52 AM
You never specified that before. You outright said that whatever Capcom US presents is part of US canon.

I did so say it before.  I said Wily was Light's assistant because it does not contradict.

You guys are just being irrelevant now.


Offline Flame

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Reply #377 on: October 11, 2009, 02:31:57 AM
Hey shouldn't this topic maybe be split into its own Classic section thread over "US vs Japanese canon" or something?

This topic is for small little discussions and little funny tidbits we find online, not for a full scale argument over it. >_>;

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #378 on: October 11, 2009, 02:37:51 AM
No, really, without me being rhetoric or sarcastic.. I will ask this seriously: how are we to reconcile multiple different names for the same character, which is the true canon one?

Likewise, I must seriously ask: What are robot-like humanoids and what is the land of Monsteropolis they are charge of? How does that compare to what we see in the game and especially its remake Powered Up?
Maybe robot-like humanoids are people who care enough to answer your serious questions?  Or spend so long on inane trivia (which makes us robot-like humanoids).

I'll just let you fill in that blank yourself.  Whatever it is, it's Capcom game canon.  Ask them.  It's up tot hem to explain it, not me.  The topic's gone on too long for me to be anything more than rhetorical or sarcastic at this point.  But all those stupid differences come from official sources.  And are canon to the series to varying degrees.

Capcom USA makes capcom USA's game canon.  And, as you've pointed out, there are differences.  In some cases, stupid differences.


Offline Flame

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Reply #379 on: October 11, 2009, 02:41:43 AM
What would be nice is if maybe our other Megaman experts would jump in and give their two cents so its not just Us thee arguing about the matter.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #380 on: October 11, 2009, 02:44:02 AM
No, they're much too smart for that.


Offline Flame

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Reply #381 on: October 11, 2009, 02:45:44 AM
:(
But this is getting stale.

Whatever. If you wish to believe your thing about the US Canon, go ahead, theres no reason for you to not believe if you want to that badly. Ill stick with everyone else to the notion of one canon, and a messed up US localization.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #382 on: October 11, 2009, 02:53:46 AM
Come now, drop those weapons for a moment.

I know I'm sidetracking here, but I'm seriously asking this out of interest. Not going to discredit the US canon, let us debate what it actually says and be clear on it.

Under the premise of "ancient theories/fanon", how did we ever account for Monsteropolis and robot-like humanoids? The manual statements paint a fairly weird picture in my head. Those few paragraphs seem quite easily misread and turned into exactly what this topic is about.

Just as much, I wonder which names you think of as the actual US canon. Even ignoring such issues as the weird name changes in EXE, and DASH. Within classic we've had such peculiar cases as Light vs Write, Wily vs Wiley and Rock vs Mega. How do we reconcile multiples names such as that into one concise canon? You say canon is what does not contradict, what about these oddities?

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Wily being Light's assistant does not contradict.

Going back to this. I have mentioned before that I find Wily's self imposed exile after being banished from the scientific community to be rather peculiar when compared and merged with the assistant notion, but I do suppose I can not accurately pinpoint that in relation to the creation of Rock and the other industrial robots. His exile could indeed theoretically postdate that event. Touché.

Asking this as seriously as the above questions: in that US canon, Wily being Light's assistant working on MegaMan and the 6 industrial robots, was or wasn't Wily involved in Roll's creation as well?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #383 on: October 11, 2009, 03:34:25 AM
Well, okay...

In the past people have uterly disregarded the term "Monsteropolis".  I, however, have embraced it and have it as the main location of all the fan fic adventures I write about.  Mainly because of how utterly bizzarre it is and because it's official. 

I've never really liked how MM fandom understands / understood continuity.  It's very much always was in the line of "one true" continuity and not "everything in their proper place".

Naming conventions are understood to be interpretations of the Japanese origional.  However, the most consistant name is understood, to me, to be the overriding one.  I view it as a TF fan does.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Hot_Rod_%28G1%29

The Transformers fandom is even worse than MM for this.  Take Hot Rod.  Hot Rod is his origional name, and Hot Rodimus is his Japanese name.  When he becomes leader he's Rodimus Prime (or Rodimus Convoy in Japan).  He later gets dumbed down to Hot Rod again.  Now, reletively recently his Hot Rod toy was reissued as "Rodimus Major" (because Hasbro lost the coyright for Hot Rod).  Then he became simply "Rodimus" in the Classis line.  ALL of these guys are the same character, from the same continuity.  And that's just the US and Japan; the relevant names.  However, Hot Rod is the name used in most media, so Hot Rod is the dominant name.

The most corect way to do it is the way it's done in the Transfandom.  You note ALL names.  All of them.  You note why they are the way they are.  You use the most consistant one, but they are all understood as "correct" in one facet or another.  In case of Rock, you'd note that his Japanese name is Rockman, his American name is Megaman.  You'd note that MM4 established his pre-MM name was Rock, but that this was changed in MM PU to be "Mega" (probably because they were being too literal).  For me personally I'd use "Rock" as his dominany pre-MM name, even though it was overridden by "Mega".  It's lasted a while while "Mega" was just in PU, so it hasn't shown it's staying power.  I'll admit that that's more arbitary; both would be correct.

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Beast_Wars#.22Other.22_Beast_Wars

This is how the TF Wiki explains the odd Beast Wars; a similar situation as the back of the box stuff in MM.  This is how I would catagorise US game and box continuity.  It's ALL canon.  But, it's not all nessasarily in the same continuity.  Since MM's story is so much sparser it would depend on how much it contradicts.

The Transfandom has this continuity and name stuff down pat.  It's a FAR superior way of cataloguing continuity than simply having one "true" continuity where we take a dash of Japanese with a smattering of American and season it with cartoon and mangas trivia.

As for Roll, she is not mentioned in the MM1 manual.  It would be too much to say that Wily was ivolved in Roll's creation as Light's assistant; it only says the MM1 RMs.  Thereofore: maybe Light made her on his own.  I don't like to stray too far from what the source material says.


Offline Zan

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Reply #384 on: October 11, 2009, 04:10:24 AM
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It's a FAR superior way of cataloguing continuity than simply having one "true" continuity where we take a dash of Japanese with a smattering of American and season it with cartoon and mangas trivia.

Allow me to explain what I think is a far superior way of cataloguing continuity.  It doesn't involve dashes of and smatterings of. The "game story" is completely separate from any manga or cartoon. The game story is the same in all regions. Each region just has translations of the original. Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #385 on: October 11, 2009, 04:31:15 AM
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Under the premise of "ancient theories/fanon", how did we ever account for Monsteropolis and robot-like humanoids? The manual statements paint a fairly weird picture in my head. Those few paragraphs seem quite easily misread and turned into exactly what this topic is about.

I can't answer that, but I did notice that Capcom, in regards to the Classic series at least, doesn't give a crap if the robots act like humans until it's convenient to the plot (like MM9, and that bit in MM7). So "robot-like humanoids" could be interpreted as robots who act fully human.

Monsteropolis could be seen as a huge region on land that Wily had occupied, or Wily's base (with the stages being different facets). I always found it funny that the stages were referred to as "empires"; when you think about it, they could easily cover more land than what you see in-game. (MMPC3 had very large stages, if they didn't just FEEL like it. Damn mazes)

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In the past people have uterly disregarded the term "Monsteropolis".

I think the Dreamwave comic named Mega's home city something similar (Monstropolis, I think). Megaman Central also provided the name "Gigapolis".

You know, the Dreamwave comic was fairly interesting--it read like Megaman if you weren't too familiar with the games prior to 8, or like old Angelfire-exclusive fanon. The way Proto acts (more aggressive than usual), Mega's interactions with humans, Heatman's prominence (in #2, anyway), etc.

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Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.

Admittedly, some of the localization stuff is interesting (thinking specifically of that Bradbury K. Wells fellow). I guess we should count ourselves lucky that all of the JP-only games were side games or compilations (or quietly shoved to one side like SAR); I mean, look at Final Fantasy in the SNES era.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #386 on: October 11, 2009, 04:35:41 AM
@Zan - While you're right in distinguishing game story from cartoon continuity, not all sites do that.  Still.  Because it has not been properly catagorised.  So people find this information, which you can't eleminate because it exists, and they get steered wrong.

Regarding only the Japanese sources is fine .... if all we talk about is the Japanses game continuity.  And if that's all you're interested in considering, that's fine.  That's your area of interest.

However, it's an inferior way of calaoguing continuity.  Because you are "throwing away" information.  You're not accounting for it anywhere.  And, depite it not counting towards Japanese game continuity it still exists.  The information doesn't go away because you don't want to include it or because it's silly.

So, Wily being Light's assitant.  Thrown away.  You don't account for it.  However it's right there in the MM1 manuals.  And those manuals influenced a lot of other media, for years afterwards.  

The superior way is putting it within it's rigthful continuity.  The US game continuity.  It's a more complex system (since you're accounting for different continuities), but FAR more accurate.  

To put it simply: saying Japanese game comtinuity > all other continuities is not wrong.  Not really.  But it's not entirely correct either.  And it's not all encompassing.

Edit:
The DW comics were set in "Mega City" USA.


Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #387 on: October 11, 2009, 04:42:18 AM
There's fairly little to counter the Wily/Sagesse/Isoc theory. Inafune himself said Wily was brought back by the Virus. Between what Inafune said and what Sagesse and Isoc actually did in the plot, you'd raise more plotholes saying they aren't Dr. Wily than saying that they are. For example, how can both Sagesse and Isoc do the impossible? Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row fight the power.

Like the reference. :D

Yes, Inafune did indeed say Wily was brought back by the virus; we saw that clearly in X5. But seriously, plotholes? What's impossible for one scientist may not be for another. Isoc and Serges, having gotten their hands on Zero's technology and Wily's brilliance, combined with how many ever decades of technological progress (another thing to keep in mind) would probably have found it only moderately difficult to manipulate the coding. Look at all that Ciel did. She really specialized in robotics and programming, but next thing you know, she's designing ultra-efficient power generators, resurrecting Reploids from previously incorrigible states in bite-size format, and even starting to form some kind of pathway to the human soul (which Serpent and Model W promptly exploit in ZX).

I just think Wily would take more credit for his work; there's more Wily in Zero's head than there is in the outer world.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #388 on: October 11, 2009, 05:02:45 AM
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Edit:
The DW comics were set in "Mega City" USA.

My faulty memory, then.

About fans mixing continuities: Is that how the rest of us got so anal about continuity? XD I've been thinking of listing all the different continuities, just for the hell of it.

EDIT: I did; hope I didn't miss anything. EDIT 2: Fixed. EDIT 3: fixed again. >.>

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Megaman:
- Original games (separated by region if desired)
- Licensed games
- Manuals
- Boxart
- Rockman Kikki Ippatsu
- Origin of Rock strip (included in R20)
- Picture book
- Ruby-Spears cartoon
- Captain N
- Ariga’s mangas
- Ikehara’s mangas
- Izuki’s mangas
- Battle and Chase mangas
- 4-komas
- Dreamwave comics
- Upon a Star
- Novas Adventuras de Megaman
- Club Nintendo
- Marvel VS. Capcom
- Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom

Megaman X:
- Original games (separated by region if desired)
- Manuals
- Boxart
- Ariga’s manga
- MegaMissions series
- Iwamoto’s mangas
- Ikehara’s manga (X1 only)
- X5 manga (not Iwamoto’s)
- X7 4koma
- Dreamwave comic (unfinished story)
- Ruby-Spears cartoon (one episode only)

Megaman.EXE:
- Original games (mostly name changes between regions)
- Takamisaki’s mangas
- Anime (.EXE, Axess, Stream, Beast, Beast +) (Separate by region if desired)
- Takumi’s mangas
- Onimusha Blade Warriors

Megaman Zero:
- Original games
- Kajima’s mangas
- SNK Vs. Capcom: SVC Chaos
- Onimusha Blade Warriors

Megaman Legends:
- Original games
- Namco X Capcom
- Tatsunoko VS. Capcom
-  Manga

Megaman Star Force:
- Original games
- Itagaki’s mangas
- Takumi’s mangas
- Anime (RNR, RNR Tribe) (Separate by region if desired)

Megaman ZX:
- Original games, Gigamix
- Manga (ZX, ZXA)

Unofficial:
- The Protomen
- The Megas
- Pirate games with their own stories (ex: Rocman X, Zook Z, Rockman Zero, Rockman and Crystal)
- Doujinshi



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #389 on: October 11, 2009, 05:31:21 AM
The US game continuity.  It's a more complex system (since you're accounting for different continuities), but FAR more accurate.
Ah, the ability of anonymous Reploids to reconstruct and enhance the unanalyzeable, the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia, the destruction of Zero by X's hands, the ancient partnership between Wily and X...  U.S. canon rocks. 8D

Sorry, Gauntlet, but I have to disagree on the "accuracy" point.

Anything that sneaks in during localization is regarded as just that; something the translators made up and is therefore not part of the game story.
Mostly agreed, however there is one exception to the rule if you account for terminology changes.  It is exceedingly rare, although possible, for a change in terms to impact story events.  This happened in Legends 2.  Instead of Barrel enjoying a pun-name for his mysterious baby, we're left to ponder what powers of persuasion Roll had at less than one year of age.

Yes, Inafune did indeed say Wily was brought back by the virus; we saw that clearly in X5. But seriously, plotholes? What's impossible for one scientist may not be for another. Isoc and Serges, having gotten their hands on Zero's technology and Wily's brilliance, combined with how many ever decades of technological progress (another thing to keep in mind) would probably have found it only moderately difficult to manipulate the coding.
The problem is it's not "one scientist", it's the entire scientific community of 21XX, as explicitly stated by Izzy Glow in X5.  It's also the direct statement of the almighty credits cast list of X2 and X3.  By X5 "nobody" has fully analyzed X and Zero.  This is not to say noone ever will (somebody evidently surpassed Light's knowledge of Zero in 22XX, looking at XCM, then of course there's Zero-series two centuries later), but Serges and Isoc need to be taken in the context that is a much earlier timeframe than other events that establish the eventual better understanding of X and Zero.

Serges not only reconstructed but enhanced Zero (including the introduction of the Z-Saber, which X5, X6, and Z1 all establish as linked to Zero's power).  He also makes references to X's maker, which CoA conveniently chose to ignore.  Isoc is working as an assistant to Gate, who has made remarkable progress analyzing Zero yet still does not understand it fully (as he himself admits upon defeat).  Despite this, Isoc's knowledge of Zero actually surpasses Gate's, as does his interest (which Gate himself refers to as an obsession).  He is also the only character to have claimed to see Zero prior to Nightmare Zero's defeat, making him the likely candidate for Zero's repair (including a replacement saber).  That's an awful lot to dismiss.

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #390 on: October 11, 2009, 06:21:42 AM
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Ah, the ability of anonymous Reploids to reconstruct and enhance the unanalyzeable, the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia, the destruction of Zero by X's hands, the ancient partnership between Wily and X...  U.S. canon rocks.

Sorry, Gauntlet, but I have to disagree on the "accuracy" point.

Hey, being facetious about it does not discount it's accuracy.

It's not about making sence of the MM universe.  It's about accounting for information.  Where it comes from and what it pertains to.  You're not incorrect to adhere to the Japanese stuff.  However, you're missing some stuff.  I don't like missing stuff.  

Frankly, the more rediculous .... the better.

@The Great Gonzo
Doujins aren't canon in any way.  You or I could make them, if we wanted to, so .... no.  If you wish to make a list include every fan fiction ever made by anyone.

You're missing the various licenced games (seperated out by manufacturer since we know for sure that they're canon within their own series, but not with each other)
Is the Radio drama part of Japanese game continuity proper?  If not, it goes on the list.
US box continuity.  It conflicts too much ith everything.  I gotta make a section on that stuff.  Really, I forgot how wacky it was and my site is all about the shitty elements of MM.
There a two page "origin of MM" strip that came with RM4 (I believe) that's been overwritten by RMRM.  It's in it's own little bubble now.
Novas Adventuras de Megaman.  Crappy, but licenced.
If you follow Zan's logic you might wanna seperate out the MM1 manual from itself, or group it box stories.  I don't, but I leave it to you.
There's a picture-book about Plantman and Roll that I am unsure is Japanese game canon.  Might be tho.  I dunno.

Of the classic series, those are the ones I think you missed that I can remember offhand.


Offline Flame

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Reply #391 on: October 11, 2009, 06:29:19 AM
Iceman likes his sister. 8D

anyway, you most definitely should make a section for that! you could have 1, and 2, (and show how the box art eventually progressively got better, then show coa's funny 9 joke)

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #392 on: October 11, 2009, 06:31:57 AM
I was inspired by this topic.  I tried to make good copies of the MM box art using peices from various sources on the net and here at home.  

Sadly, the result was .... not so good.

I do have a section on the old MM box art already in my image gallery.  It's pretty old now tho.  Although I did find a very detailed story of how Wily betrayed Light in a gaming magazine ... relating to MM5!  Its not canon since it's not from any official source, but it is interesting.  I'm planning on posting it pretty soon.


Offline Flame

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Reply #393 on: October 11, 2009, 09:00:26 AM
Cant wait. :)

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #394 on: October 11, 2009, 12:50:44 PM
-MegaMan told Wily to die!
-MegaMan is more than a robot!
Hmm, now I wonder if MegaMan was just lying to try to scare Wily out of doing anything again.  Obviously it didn't work, as Dr. Wily must have lost his fear of death by now.

I suppose Megaman 1's box art is also what Megaman really looks like right? Since Capcom US had it made. Megaman 1, 2, and 9's horrendous art.
Yes, and everyone had tiny bodies with huge heads until the second game, and they all kept on growing until they snapped back like rubberbands in 9.

Well, if you don't want to disregard wonky art styles, then... Maybe MegaMan was trying on some alternate armor for a short time?  Had to get his face re-smoothed once in a while?  Anything's possible!

In case of Rock, you'd note that his Japanese name is Rockman, his American name is Megaman.  You'd note that MM4 established his pre-MM name was Rock, but that this was changed in MM PU to be "Mega" (probably because they were being too literal).  For me personally I'd use "Rock" as his dominany pre-MM name, even though it was overridden by "Mega".  It's lasted a while while "Mega" was just in PU, so it hasn't shown it's staying power.
With this reasoning, which would you say has greater precedence, "Bolts" or "Screws"?

And those manuals influenced a lot of other media, for years afterwards.
"Thanks to you, my former partner has transformed Rock into a humanoid like yourself."



Offline Zan

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Reply #395 on: October 11, 2009, 01:29:50 PM
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Still.  Because it has not been properly catagorised.  So people find this information, which you can't eleminate because it exists, and they get steered wrong.

Regarding only the Japanese sources is fine .... if all we talk about is the Japanses game continuity.  And if that's all you're interested in considering, that's fine.  That's your area of interest.

However, it's an inferior way of calaoguing continuity.  Because you are "throwing away" information.  You're not accounting for it anywhere.  And, depite it not counting towards Japanese game continuity it still exists.  The information doesn't go away because you don't want to include it or because it's silly.

Actually, what I've done for all my timelines is make clear cut notes on what the US games say, such as the different dates in Cain's journal. I haven't thrown them away, I just don't view them as important enough to influence the timeline of events; the order is determined by what is factually known in the original story, the localization changes are listed for some one else to work in if they ever so please.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #396 on: October 11, 2009, 05:42:28 PM
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Doujins aren't canon in any way.  You or I could make them, if we wanted to, so .... no.  If you wish to make a list include every fan fiction ever made by anyone.

I only threw it in because they're commercial.

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Novas Adventuras de Megaman.  Crappy, but licenced.

Didn't forget it. :)

I'd love to see a section detailing the boxart, as well, and that story. By the way, would magazine covers like SWATPro's be eligible for inclusion in a an article like that? They do change up Megaman like the boxart did (at least, the earlier ones did).



Offline Zan

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Reply #397 on: October 11, 2009, 06:15:56 PM
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the centuries of Maverick Wars before Eurasia

Actually, the Reploid War mentioned is the fight against Repliforce. Which makes it all the weirder.

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however there is one exception to the rule if you account for terminology changes.  It is exceedingly rare, although possible, for a change in terms to impact story events.  This happened in Legends 2.  Instead of Barrel enjoying a pun-name for his mysterious baby, we're left to ponder what powers of persuasion Roll had at less than one year of age.

In the MegaMan universe, Mega is a perfectly fine pun on Roll! >.>


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If you follow Zan's logic you might wanna seperate out the MM1 manual from itself, or group it box stories.  I don't, but I leave it to you.

I think games, manuals, sourcebooks and such should not be separated.

Hence, the MM1 manual goes wherever the things I previously listed go. That is; the list of things that slipped in during the localization process, whether it be included in the manuals or games.  So, the Wily is assistant notion goes in the same term as "Die Wily!" and such. Said term being either "US canon", "localization oddities," etc.

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Is the Radio drama part of Japanese game continuity proper?  If not, it goes on the list.

Not sure if that one is Capcom produced , but even if it was, I think its timeline placement is too unclear to count immediately. Being after R6 but disregarding R7 elements.

Anyway, there are certainly a few stories that are of peculiar "semi-canon" status in regard to the games. MegaMission1 for instance is accepted by R20 and had Inafune's design involvement. However, its sequels MegaMission2 and 3 are outright invalidated by X5 and had no such acceptance from Capcom. (Other than say, Capcom artists drawing the art for the model kits.)

Likewise, Challenger from the Future is also mentioned in R20 (using Sprites Inc's rips no less!), but has a distinctly contradictory date of 200X for a 20XX game.

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hope I didn't miss anything.

Taking a closer look at your listing...

Under MegaManX:
-MegaMission1 to MegaMission3
-Ariga's MegaMission manga.

And under classic, Ariga's Rockman MegaMix and Ariga's Rockman Remix are two distinctly different canons.

Also, you might want to account for both EXE and ZERO's appearence in Onimusha Blade Warriors.



Offline Flame

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Reply #398 on: October 11, 2009, 06:34:39 PM
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(using Sprites Inc's rips no less!)
that is still pretty funny. they just took the art and didnt even bother to clean it and separate it from its source.

kinda like they did with Okami, ripping the art off of IGN. now THAT was hilarious.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #399 on: October 11, 2009, 07:10:54 PM
@Zan: I know Megamix and Remix are different, hence "Ariga's mangas". I didn't feel like listing them all, honestly. Thanks for pointing out what I missed.