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The Great Gonzo · 92967

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #400 on: October 11, 2009, 08:07:59 PM
I only threw it in because they're commercial.

Didn't forget it. :)

I'd love to see a section detailing the boxart, as well, and that story. By the way, would magazine covers like SWATPro's be eligible for inclusion in a an article like that? They do change up Megaman like the boxart did (at least, the earlier ones did).

I'd incluide anything SWAT Pro said, sure.  But it wouldn't really count towards the official story for that continuity, it's be it's own thing. 

Actually, getting back to the box thing, Monsteropolis was continued at LEAST until MM5 .... or the European version of that at least.  They seem to have stopped referencing the name, but they do make consistant references to "the city" throughout.


Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #401 on: October 12, 2009, 12:10:55 AM

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Offline Zan

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Reply #402 on: October 12, 2009, 12:55:06 AM
The easiest answer is just saying he never died in IHX. I'm pretty sure I neither saw a corpse nor a grave, let alone the result of that missile.



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #403 on: October 12, 2009, 01:21:53 AM
I was just hoping to fit IHX and X2 together somehow. I like the original story for the series, and I wouldn't like a small change or a retcon to ruin it. ; o ; </wii>

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #404 on: October 12, 2009, 04:31:37 AM
It's pretty easy to think Cain just survived.  Even if it looks like author intent might have been for him to die there, since there was no MHX2 it's easy to think of him escaping.


Offline Fragman

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Reply #405 on: October 12, 2009, 07:39:11 AM
Cain's appearance changed drastically after that too.  He went from being on massive life support to just hobbling.  Even survived a maverick attack in X2.  Maybe he did die but made a Reploid copy of himself beforehand which is the Cain we see in game.

Monsteropolis.  I assumed it was retconned into Neo-Tokyo.  Or maybe they just moved.


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Offline Flame

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Reply #406 on: October 12, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
He was never on life support. the only time we saw him with that machine was while he was eating. It is more likely a machine that helps him digest his food. be it a futuristic dialysis machine, or maybe just a machine that helps his stomach itself.
R20 has artwork of him standing around just dandy, with only those 4 circles on his back where the machine connects.

Plus, Wily has survived tons of [parasitic bomb] in his day. Cain can definitely do so as well. well, except plot holes. he cant escape those. He fell into one in X4 after all. Poor guy. must be starving down there.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #407 on: October 12, 2009, 10:03:42 PM
You know it's futuristic because it's so large.  In the future machines only get larger.  Why take digestive enzymes in pill form when you can attach huge cables to your back?   >0<

Maybe he only needs that huge machine some of the time?  Since there's no Maverick Hunter X 2 one can only assume so.  Maybe it prolongs his life through some .... unkown futuristic means?


Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #408 on: October 12, 2009, 10:12:52 PM
The easiest answer is to just ignore MHX



Offline Zan

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Reply #409 on: October 12, 2009, 10:23:38 PM
Nope, because IHX much more detailed shows what went on during X1.



Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #410 on: October 12, 2009, 10:29:00 PM
I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.



Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #411 on: October 12, 2009, 10:40:26 PM
You deny the awesome that is Takahiro Sakurai/Mark Gatha and Ryôtarô Okiayu/Lucas Gilbertson?! D:

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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #412 on: October 12, 2009, 10:47:51 PM
I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.

I gotta learn how to do this.


Offline Zan

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Reply #413 on: October 13, 2009, 12:59:30 AM
I guess if you ever plan on being serious business and pedantic about the storylines, sure. I just prefer ignoring it and enjoying the gameplay. It's so much easier.

Then you should have always ignored the storyline. Whether it's X1 or MHX, both should be discarded.

That, or you learn how to actually enjoy a storyline and how it connects between separate entries to create a whole.



Offline Gotham Ranger

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Reply #414 on: October 13, 2009, 07:35:36 PM
You deny the awesome that is Takahiro Sakurai/Mark Gatha and Ryôtarô Okiayu/Lucas Gilbertson?! D:
I'm not saying I don't listen to them talk! I can enjoy as an isolated event within the confines of the singular game when I realise the whole plot spanning the series has become disjointed and convoluted.

I gotta learn how to do this.
It's how I got through FF7



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #415 on: October 13, 2009, 11:23:51 PM
Wow, I sure missed a lot. Looks like I'm gonna make another TLDR post.

Sounds like we're still figuring out "Canon" vs "Continuity." The current vernacular of Rockman canon includes the question of story continuity with the question of canonicity. Like Wikipedia's definition,  "Canon (fiction), material that is considered to be "genuine", "something that actually happened", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator." Rockman game continuity is the original version, the genuine story by the original authors and creators, the basis on which the franchise was built and from which all other regionalizations and spin-off material is derived. Here canon and continuity are combined.

If we regard canon as "everything with a Capcom logo" then there is a great deal of un-connected continuitites included under the general phrase of being canon, making what is canon a separate definition and continuity a subset of that. Here what is official or officially licensed is canon, but that has no bearing about what continuity or universe a set of data exists in relation to. They could be all together lumped like the Mandi-verse, or divvied out individually.

Apparently we want to reconcile these. Are we going to try and establish some kind of canon ranking system like Star Wars does? I'll abide by whatever you guys want to, if we can get a consensus going.

There was certainly a time Capcom USA tried to keep Mega Man its own thing. I don't know enough about all European regions to state the same, but in the US it's pretty clear. Starting with the MM1 intro, they reworked the story. They've just never done so very consistently, making the notion of establishing a "continuity" exceedingly difficult.

If we're trying to identify a US continuity then we should include games, manuals, and boxes, and deal with each contradiction in turn on an individual case basis, rather than throw out all manuals or all boxes because of a few discrepancies. Capcom USA's web site should also be included. Perhaps to some extent, the ads Capcom puts out as well.

We also need to address the nature of Capcom/developer comments, as in "do they only apply to Japanese game continuity since the designers are Japanese, or if the medium of the interview is in English and they talk of Mega Man, doesn't that make it US canon?" Most of the time the developers aren't making it clear that they're talking about only a certain regional continuity, or even that they consider the two to be wholly separate. It might be easier to categorize when it's a US publication's interview, but then some interviews are simply translated, like in Mega Man Zero Official Complete Works which were not initially about "Mega Man" but the names were region swapped to fit, at times misleadingly. And where the book retcons what's shown in the games, like the Big 4's death, which takes priority?

There's also the US "Official Guides" to consider, they deal directly with the game continuity but also make their own additions. A step below that would be gaming magazines and articles, things they say about it that may or may not have been information from Capcom.

On that subject, the most asupicious guidebook in my opinion is "The Official Guide to Mega Man" from 1991, produced in direct coordination with Capcom USA at the time. This book "goes much further than simply offering the tips and tricks necessary to complete each game. It purposefully attempts to fill in the missing details about Mega Man, Dr. Wright and Dr. Wily, and the wars in the mining colonies." When USA had  a deliberately original canon story, this was it. It wasn't 100% faithful to the MM1 manual, but kept Mega Man being "defender of the universe" and fighting in "Monsteropolis" and the association of "Dr. Wright, and his assistant Dr. Wily." Poor Roll is again omitted.

Yet this undertaking to establish Cap USA's own Mega Man story was undermined shortly after it began when Mega Man 4's intro denied many of the origin circumstances the book asserted. It was an Official book telling the Official story of the games... It just didn't stick. Many of its notions are recognized as quite contrary now (most games take place outside of Earth, Mega Man can't speak, Mega Man has "the emotional presence and maturity of an adult male" etc). We could say they have since been retconned out of continuity, or we could try to be fairer and salvage it on a line by line basis, "What exactly has been contradicted? What exactly has not?"

We can try to evaluate all the variables...  Yet it might be easier to just go post a thread on Capcom Unity and ask what they want us to consider Mega Man US canon, since that is essentially going to the source of said canon. Depending on what kind of reply we get, go from there.

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The US stories, such as they are, don't offer up many bothersome contradictions.

They offer enough that we wound up here in the first place. You wouldn't be so eager to toss out the packaging info if they didn't.

In the past, US Mega Man games and materials have often been devalued from canon as the result of fans wanting to understand the story at a greater level. Somewhere between awkward translations and inconsistent regionalizations, from the beginning to the present day, fan sites have picked up on that US continuity was a mismatched mess and tried to figure out what was "real story" was by looking at the original version. In other words, it became like this for a reason. For the sake of in-depth discussion on plot and continuity, it's something only possible with the Rockman version, or by combining Rockman with Mega Man.

With US canon as strictly its own animal, some simple questions which would otherwise have answers thanks to Japanese sources become unanswerable again. Who is that character shown in the MM7 password screen when you entered the data wrong? In strict US continuity, it is a character with no official name and no clear understanding.  In Japanese continuity, we can say it's Wily's pet bird Reggae who first appeared in the game Rockboard. What is Iris using when she transforms and fights Zero in X4? Japanese canon says she's combining with her brother's CPU to fulfill the Ultimate Soldier project of Repliforce. US canon knows nothing about that project, and can't answer what it was. We're left to speculate something about evil energy powered ride armors. This kind of thing should change as more materials are brought over by Udon like the MM and MMX OCWs. Provided we count them as US canon when they're released.

Even within themselves, the US games sometimes fall short on clarity. Like Protoman's beginning in Powered Up that was previously discussed. Comparing to the Japanese version allows us to understand what was meant.  Instead of "Who are you?" Wily's Japanese line is "Ki- kisama wa?"  basically means "Y-You?" (a very derogatory version of "you" at that.) It can hold connotations of anything from "Who are you?" "What's your name?" "What are you doing here?" "What do you want?" "What are you trying to say?" "What about you?" and so on and so on. You can say it to someone you've just met (who has greatly irritated you somehow) or to someone you've known for years and want to verbally disrespect. The stuttering is a sign of surprise and recognition, as is the immediate jump to anger and insults, and the continued exposition that Wily knows Blues is a robot who doesn't follow orders. Thus "Who are you?" is an inappropriate translation, unless taken facetiously.

Mega Man X4's flashback scene might be one of the worst, starting off with Sigma telling a story and ending with Sigma being surprised and Zero acting as though he knew all along, or rather as if he was the one doing the telling, despite that it follows Sigma's perspective. It's an error that could totally change one's understanding of the scene. Translation can make a huge difference.

But it isn't always clear what's a translation error and what's an intentional swap. Typos are usually easy to identify, and name irregularities. But did they mean to alter continuity by saying Sigma's partner was X's former comrade in X5? Were we supposed to think that X must be Mega Man (because Light and Wily were former partners, building US canon on US canon) or that Dr. Cain was actually evil (X4 US manual says Cain made Double, after all!) ...Who knows.

I can think of a few major changes to Mega Man continuity from the Japanese version that have stuck around in some persistent form in US canon, licensed spin-offs and fanon. Things that generally go beyond a single mistranslated line or altered source. Wily and Light as partners before MM1 is one of them. Everybody here's familiar with that.

That Mega Man knows Protoman is his brother is another. MM7 is the strongest support of the case. Even when regionalizing the Upon A Star OVA, they changed the script so that Protoman calls Mega Man "brother." It is seemingly the impression they were trying to give is that they are familiar with each other and their relationship. It hasn't been entirely consistent though, and can cause some theoretical problems. Like where Protoman lies to Duo about his relationship with Mega Man in their combined Power Fighters ending. It lends the question of, why? Maybe he misunderstood the question as Duo saying that their personalities are completely alike when they are not, or maybe he just doesn't trust giant Mary Sue aliens (but then why ask him to come back sometime?)

Then there's the infamous ending to Mega Man 7. Clearly not a mistranslation of Japanese, since the lines in question were pretty much all added and didn't exist in the original. Some hate it, some love it, but for fans of the change it winds up being a source of frustration when later games don't feature Mega Man acting like such a badass, wondering what happened to his resolve.

And then, there's the Mega Buster. In Japan, the Rockbuster uses solar energy condensed into a solar bullet. In the US, the arm cannon has been said to be running off plasma energy since at least 1990's Mega Man Dr. Wily's Revenge. Some people think the Mega Buster didn't exist until Mega Man 4 because of the intro, mistaking "the New Mega Buster!" for "the new Mega Buster!" Contradicting that, recent games like Mega Man Collection and Powered Up have showed that the Mega Buster  has been Mega Man's weapon since his battle conversion.  Likewise, plasma power comes into slight question when we get to the X series and X gets the Plasma Shot, leaving some wondering how if X's weapon has always been plasma based, what makes the Plasma Shot is so different?

Those are some things I would conclude as being inherently "US canon" if we're not going to call it "those weird little things that got changed from the actual canon" anymore.

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Anyway, there are certainly a few stories that are of peculiar "semi-canon" status in regard to the games. MegaMission1 for instance is accepted by R20 and had Inafune's design involvement.

I guess the new phrase would be "canon, but outside of continuity."  R20 still calls it a Carddas Original Story, just as the sequels are called in other books.

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Like Heatman's being hotter than two suns.

At 12000 degrees celsius, Heatman can burn at temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun. The surface is also the coolest part of any star. The layers of the core, and even the corona, burn at temperatures hundreds of times greater than Heatman. Heatman can supposedly get ridiculously hot. But he is not "hotter than two suns" unless you want to be way more specific about what part of the sun you're talking about.

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They took a page from the manga, and had them repaired and their programming restored.

As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #416 on: October 14, 2009, 12:13:36 AM
Well said, sir. :)

Do you own "The Official Guide to Megaman", or was the info you provided just word-of-mouth? It sounds very interesting.

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As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.

The hell? I never heard that, anywhere. :/



Offline Flame

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Reply #417 on: October 14, 2009, 02:16:37 AM
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As it turns out, the idea that the robots would be restored to goodness was part of the first Rockman story, long before Ariga's or Ikehara's mangas came about. Having to collect those chips from the 6 RM1 bosses dropped wasn't just to gain weapons but to recover the hearts and minds of the robots themselves. We never did see that plot element come to full fruition in-game until later on though.
I dont think many folks knew that though. they figured thats how Megaman got the weapon. And certain appearances elp to blur that, as with Cutman in Megaman 8, and Gutsman in 7. (which, have we ever established whether it is Gutsman or a copy?)
PU was just the first one to actually show the idea in game though.

also, another note on when you mentioned guides, the Command mission guide- is of questionable canonity as well, as it's intro tells of story events but then kind oif has its own story, telling of the events in the firm of a message from Alia to Signas, saying that the Eastern Maverick hunters, (AKA Redips,) is requesting backup from them.

Ill put up the scans later.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #418 on: October 14, 2009, 08:38:40 AM
While not debating it anymore, I'm still more in favor of calling it "US canon" out of sheer usefulness than anything else.  Not only has many things been changed (as has been pointed out), but it gives a very consice answer to lenthy debates as to why something does or does not count.  It counts, just for the US stuff only.  Or it doesn't count of the discussion at hand, because the discussion is on the Japanese continuity.  This topic isn't the first time I've seen people question why the Japanese stuff gets more respect  and I doubt it'll be the last.  Putting all the stuff that belongs in the US continuity actually IN something we can call "US continuity" saves some headaches.  

I don't see why reason why it can't be as full of contradictions and misunderstandings as the games themselves.  But that's just me.  There's already different continuities, so .... this is just one more.


Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #419 on: October 21, 2009, 05:05:43 PM
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Do you own "The Official Guide to Megaman", or was the info you provided just word-of-mouth?

I do own it. Got it off ebay a while back, for about the price on the book's back after shipping and handling. That's also how I got the Mega Man 2 Worlds of Power book. It might have even been from the same seller, who might have been a fan in his/her youth. Or maybe they just had a huge retro juvenile book stockpile. You can get it on Amazon from used booksellers too.

http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide-Mega-Man/dp/0874552419/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256136246&sr=8-1

The Official Guide to Mega Man by Steven A. Schwartz, ISBN 0-87455-241-9 published from COMPUTE Books in 1991.

It recants the "history" of Dr. Xavier Wright and his assistant Dr. Jerome Wily, who created 6 powerful androids together for use in the space mining colonies, until Wily turned betrayed the government and reprogrammed them. Now a seventh robot, meant to be the overseer of them all, has been converted (the book says by Wily in one instance, but I think that's a typo since every other part says Wright) into a battle robot to stop the rampaging. The story is told in the form of reports and communiques between Galactic Council officials and scientists (who share names with then-members of Capcom USA and the author himself) called "reproductions of top-secret government documents" from between the years 2035 and 2055 (the suggested timeframe of MM1-3 and DWR). The Mega Man games themselves are referred to as historical simulations that allow people to learn about and interact with history. It's clever in a cheezy 80s way.

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also, another note on when you mentioned guides, the Command mission guide- is of questionable canonity as well, as it's intro tells of story events but then kind oif has its own story, telling of the events in the firm of a message from Alia to Signas, saying that the Eastern Maverick hunters, (AKA Redips,) is requesting backup from them.

M Sipher himself is from the same vein of creative storytelling as the OGtMM author. It's cool he goes through the extra effort, even if he isn't always 100% accurate with it. In this case, the Japanese CM Official Complete Guide does mention Signas, Alia and Douglas, so they're probably still around, just not relevant to the story at hand, not unlike how the US guide portrays them.



Offline Zan

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Reply #420 on: October 21, 2009, 10:29:34 PM
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The Official Guide to Mega Man

You know, we really need to properly compile all of this information somewhere. So THAT is where Light's first name of "Xavier" comes from.

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between the years 2035 and 2055

200X >.>

But if that's "history", at which time are they recollecting all of this? You could consider any mistakes made as historical inaccuracies.

The overall idea here reminds me of how the Dune universe has both the original books, and the newer books to form its canon. When some of the original books were still being written, another author developed an encyclopedia with help from the books' actual author. This book presented itself as a historical recollection of events, so it shrugged off inconsistencies by considering them historical inaccuracies. Over time, the original author occasionally used ideas from the encyclopedia to write his books. But when the author of the originals died and his son took up the mantle, all the newer stories made no efforts to take ideas from the encyclopedia and clearly decided to contradict it.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #421 on: October 21, 2009, 11:16:25 PM
200X, 20XX, same thing.

Jerome
Dr. Wily is The Nutty Professor!!!



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #422 on: October 22, 2009, 02:08:15 AM
Thanks for the info. :)

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The story is told in the form of reports and communiques between Galactic Council officials and scientists

Consequences of the otherworldly MM3/Wily's Revenge boxart?

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The Mega Man games themselves are referred to as historical simulations that allow people to learn about and interact with history. It's clever in a cheezy 80s way.

I'd love to see them try to explain the games with multiple endings.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #423 on: October 22, 2009, 02:16:43 AM
Alternate history fanfics!

But they would probably have disclaimers in the "real" MegaMan world.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #424 on: October 22, 2009, 05:07:28 AM
Interesting book.  I wonder what sorta takes it has on MM.  And who it's endorsed by ... the Worlds of Power book was endorsed by Nintendo, not Capcom.