Topic: Keiji Inafune leaves Capcom (UPDATE)

[Aresian]

That's pretty much the gist of it in a nutshell. Nice to see it, really.

[Ninja Lou]

Still though,

we should try and play MH one day. Maybe the new PSP one. I suck at MH PSP though.

If they make one that can go online that would rule. My PS3 is the 20 gig so I can't use the ad-hoc party inorder to get my psp online. It sucks that we can't play together on the Wii version. That would have been awesome.

[Hypershell]

Out of curiousity, why not?  Monster Hunter 3 Tri for Wii is on my B-Day/Christmas list...

I wouldnt mind doing the same to those who keep mentioning Megaman X and Classic 2.

Theyre good and all, but the games that came after were better, and the constant praising of those two is starting to make them overrated.

But definitely. ZX was amazing, and should not be talked down on.

Very much agreed.  Although, the first X game is pretty damn awesome (IMHO surpassing its PSP remake; sorry but nerfing the best buster the series ever saw to half-strength doesn't hack it with me).  I don't think it's the BEST, per se, but it set one hell of a standard.

MM2 is, likewise, great, but at the same time a bit over-rated.  The fact that Inafune himself is the textbook example of that mentality is one thing about him that I don't appreciate.  We get it, 3 was nightmarish development for him, and shipped with unfinished [parasitic bomb], but that doesn't make the end result any less freaking awesome.  We love Rush, we love ProtoMan, we even love Doc Robot, and we like to FREAKING SLIDE.  How MM9 reused 2's drum beat over 3's epic weapon theme, I will never know.

[Ninja Lou]

Out of curiousity, why not?  Monster Hunter 3 Tri for Wii is on my B-Day/Christmas list...
Very much agreed.  Although, the first X game is pretty damn awesome (IMHO surpassing its PSP remake; sorry but nerfing the best buster the series ever saw to half-strength doesn't hack it with me).  I don't think it's the BEST, per se, but it set one hell of a standard.

MM2 is, likewise, great, but at the same time a bit over-rated.  The fact that Inafune himself is the textbook example of that mentality is one thing about him that I don't appreciate.  We get it, 3 was nightmarish development for him, and shipped with unfinished [parasitic bomb], but that doesn't make the end result any less freaking awesome.  We love Rush, we love ProtoMan, we even love Doc Robot, and we like to FREAKING SLIDE.  How MM9 reused 2's drum beat over 3's epic weapon theme, I will never know.

Acid is in another region. Monster hunter isn't like FFXI sadly and you can not play outside of your region. You, PB (play the god damn game you ass), and I can play the game since we are all in the same region.

[Flame]

Very much agreed.  Although, the first X game is pretty damn awesome (IMHO surpassing its PSP remake; sorry but nerfing the best buster the series ever saw to half-strength doesn't hack it with me).  I don't think it's the BEST, per se, but it set one hell of a standard.

Same sentiment here, bro. while X might get hype like 2 does, it IS still a great game, and in a few ways, still superior to the remake. HELMETS. HELMETS EVERYWHERE.

God damn- couldnt resist, but it's true XDThough the helmet thing bothers me almost more because it was not born out of some artistic preference or redesign like X8, but simply because it would be easier to model? Really? THATS the reason? Its  VERY, well, pardon my saying so, stupid.
(I aint makin' it up folks, check the concept art for MHX Zero in Complete works. It shows Zero 1's head with his helmet proper, and has notes detailing how if it's design for the game is streamlined more, it would allow them to use less polygons on the model, which also shows laziness on their part. ANd lets face it, MHX had pretty bad models for a PSP game. especially one that isnt exactly big as opposed to say, Monster hunter, which ive seen mentioned. or even Powered up.)
MHX also butchered Zero's theme. Its almost as if they were trying to make it sound like the Zero series version.

MM2 is, likewise, great, but at the same time a bit over-rated.  The fact that Inafune himself is the textbook example of that mentality is one thing about him that I don't appreciate.  We get it, 3 was nightmarish development for him, and shipped with unfinished [parasitic bomb], but that doesn't make the end result any less freaking awesome.  We love Rush, we love ProtoMan, we even love Doc Robot, and we like to FREAKING SLIDE.  How MM9 reused 2's drum beat over 3's epic weapon theme, I will never know.

Well, at least he showed interest in doing 3 all over again. (lol, imagine it turning out more like 2)

But MM9, I just couldnt help but feel it was just Megaman 2 with a new coat of paint. I very much consider 10 better than 9. At least it did what SHOULD have been done with the 8 bit retromakes. Its very nice to make 8 bit megaman games, but innovation can also be used. 10 had a character select much like MM&B, That Fortress which went up to space was REALLY unexpected and a very nice touch, and the overall game feels much more like a "new" 8 bit Megaman game than 9 did.

But thats just me.

[Fxeni]

What they did for MHX wasn't laziness, they just weren't sure how much resources they had to work with and didn't want to run the risk of having the game slow down. So they streamlined/optimized the designs beforehand just in case. Could they have used more polygons in the long run? Probably. Does it really matter? No, not really. At least the games were guaranteed to run smoothly this way, and that's what really matters.

[Flame]

what matters about it is that they changed the design of the character JUST for the models. Nothing else.

X1 Zero's sprite had no booblights. I dont recall them removing them from his design because of it.

Its not uncommon for the in game sprites or models to not fully match certain details in artwork.

[VixyNyan]

Acid is in another region. Monster hunter isn't like FFXI sadly and you can not play outside of your region. You, PB (play the god damn game you ass), and I can play the game since we are all in the same region.

Region never had anything to do with it. It's the version of the game that matters. If Acid was able to run USA version on a PAL Wii, he could play with all of you. I own all 3 versions of the game so I can play with any of you just fine. ^^ </wii>

[Acid]

If Acid was able to run USA version on a PAL Wii,

I ain't. Sadly. And I don't think I could import my character either.

[Flame]

What they did for MHX wasn't laziness, they just weren't sure how much resources they had to work with and didn't want to run the risk of having the game slow down. So they streamlined/optimized the designs beforehand just in case. Could they have used more polygons in the long run? Probably. Does it really matter? No, not really. At least the games were guaranteed to run smoothly this way, and that's what really matters.

Also, Im pretty sure when you start a game in a company such as Capcom, you know how much you have in the way of resources.

[Zan]

God damn- couldnt resist, but it's true XDThough the helmet thing bothers me almost more because it was not born out of some artistic preference or redesign like X8, but simply because it would be easier to model? Really? THATS the reason? Its  VERY, well, pardon my saying so, stupid.
(I aint makin' it up folks, check the concept art for MHX Zero in Complete works. It shows Zero 1's head with his helmet proper, and has notes detailing how if it's design for the game is streamlined more, it would allow them to use less polygons on the model, which also shows laziness on their part. ANd lets face it, MHX had pretty bad models for a PSP game. especially one that isnt exactly big as opposed to say, Monster hunter, which ive seen mentioned. or even Powered up.)

You're making a big fuss over nothing.

MHX also butchered Zero's theme. Its almost as if they were trying to make it sound like the Zero series version.

I'm much more concerned with the exclusion of the ending credits.

X1 Zero's sprite had no booblights. I dont recall them removing them from his design because of it.

And they could have easily added them to his sprite.

Its not uncommon for the in game sprites or models to not fully match certain details in artwork.

We've long passed the time when this was an acceptable practice. Square ran it into the ground with their SNES Final Fantasy games.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a REMAKE to change a design. It does not overwrite the existence of the original; if you so please, just imagine Zero as he's always been.

[Flame]

You're making a big fuss over nothing.

I know.

I'm much more concerned with the exclusion of the ending credits.

I dont own MHX or a PSP so ive never played it through in full, but when i think back, that too.

And they could have easily added them to his sprite.

They didnt though (but I REALLY do wonder often how that was overlooked on his sprite...)

We've long passed the time when this was an acceptable practice. Square ran it into the ground with their SNES Final Fantasy games.

Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a REMAKE to change a design. It does not overwrite the existence of the original; if you so please, just imagine Zero as he's always been.

Oh, I do. But what bothers me, is that it was not redesigned simply to redesign it or change how it looks, it was just done so they could be lazy on the model, on a detail which is actually a pretty minor one to really be so concerned with in terms of resources. is it THAT hard to add a few extra curves to the helmet on the model? Really?

THATS what bothers me. I can accept X8's helmet being just redesign, (though that wont stop me from disliking it!) but MHX kinda bothers me with WHY they changed it.
But whatever. At least it wasnt changed as badly as X8 anyway.

[Ninja Lou]

Region never had anything to do with it. It's the version of the game that matters. If Acid was able to run USA version on a PAL Wii, he could play with all of you. I own all 3 versions of the game so I can play with any of you just fine. ^^ </wii>

Heh, thats what I meant.
We need to play someday Vixy. Maybe you can get PB to freaking play.

Anyway back on topic, has Inafune mentioned what he is going to do after he officially leaves Capcom at the end of the month?

[Flame]

Not yet. but he mentioned he wont take any breaks, and that he was interested in starting his own company and work with Capcom on legends 3 before they said "no, that wont be necessary"

SO Im guessing he might just start his own company. Perhaps one that does all sorts of [parasitic bomb]. He mentioned interest in movies, i think he said writing, stuff like that- other things besides just games.

But I would definitely say I see an Inafune corp. some time in the future.

[Protoman Blues]

We need to play someday Vixy. Maybe you can get PB to freaking play.

I can't even play now if I wanted too!

[KudosForce]

A general purpose company, huh? That reminds me of the humble beginnings of certain companies (e.g. Konami, Nintendo).

It's a shame he won't get to do outsourced work for MML3, though (although, I wouldn't surprised if Capcom had read his interview before he asked them ).

[Flame]

They didnt. If I recall right. 4gamer agreed to not release it until he had already left capcom.
Though maybe im wrong.

[Hypershell]

We've long passed the time when this was an acceptable practice.

Compare Zero's TvC artwork to his in-game model.  There's a certain Command Mission trend which was carried over in one but not the other.  Differences between art and in-game still happen, they're just more subtle.  I think Zero's horns certainly fall into that category.

Further, the PSP models look like they belong in Sonic Rush; intricate details such as Zero's horn alignment are nigh impossible to make out.  Even if you could view the model that closely (as in X's Get Weapon screen), it'd look so damn ugly that you wouldn't notice/care.

What they did for MHX wasn't laziness

You may say that to excuse the craptacular character models, however the absence of armor in mugshots really can't be read as anything but lazy.  Bad enough X8 deliberately designed the armors to be both pallette-swaps and face-hiding so that they can reuse the hell out of ONE image, however MHX just ignores it outright.

Mind you, we are talking about a presentational issue which X6 did properly.  There's just no excuse for that.

[OBJECTION MAN]

He didn't say it never happens, just that it isn't nearly as acceptable now.

[Hypershell]

...

...they're just more subtle.  I think Zero's horns certainly fall into that category.

Seriously, who here can make out anything CLOSE to that level of detail in Zero's head during MHX?

To further the point I disapprove of the kind of design philosophy that this indicates.  Yeah, when the NES was booming, characters were designed rather strictly around system capabilities.  Heck, in many cases the dot art was done before the character was ever drawn.  However, when the Super NES era arrived, something which set the X-series apart from the classics before it, even from the beginning (as Zero's X1 sprites obviously tell) is that the artistic design came first and was then adapted as best it can be for the game, not the other way around.  It was that way from the birth of the series all the way up to Command Mission.  Then X8 happened.

Considering system limitations is one thing, but when the imagination behind the title is warped to fit strictly within, there's a problem.  And there is a very noticeable difference in the overall visual quality of the title to me; X8 and MHX can't hold a candle to their PS2 predecessors visually.  Consider the type of characters who were designed for the Xtremes, and the deal with Zero's helmet on a PSP game is just absurd.  I don't even CARE that his helmet looks different, it's just the reason that it looks different that bugs me (kinda mimicking what Flame said, I know).

They didnt though (but I REALLY do wonder often how that was overlooked on his sprite...)

I think in those days the bar was simply set lower for dot art.  I mean, look at Super Mario World; considering the level of detail, palette-swapping Luigi looks a LOT more conspicuous there than in previous titles.  Obviously Nintendo took notice seeings how SMA2 changed that.


Topic shift somewhat more relevant to original discussion:
This is probably mere coincidence, but does anyone besides me find it odd that Inafune is "calling out" the future sales of Capcom's franchises as to prove/disprove his point, when as of his quitting Capcom the two big MegaMan games we're looking forward to are both sequels to bombs?  We all know the deal with Legends, but even if the title says otherwise, MegaMan Universe may in more than a few ways be regarded as Powered Up 2 (seems to play vastly superior to PU, though, so long as they can nail down the "inching" issue).

[Flame]

The Xtremes actually totally slipped my mind...

But thats just the final nail then. if the Xtremes could represent Zero's helmet well enough on the GAME BOY COLOR, then theres no excuse for a PSP game.

Not to mention, the design notes dont mention any concern over resources, just that they want to skimp out on the curves in the model. AKA lazyness. if you were telling me it was something to do with his hair, or even legs, thats one thing, but the back of his helmet?

Also, Agreed on X8's visual quality. Funnily enough, for all its flaws, X7 is vastly superior to X8 in terms of visual quality. the models are all rather smooth looking, so are the environments, and the Cell shaded outline only smooths it more.  (another thing X8 actually apparently skimped out on. in early promo videos, the X8 models had cel shaded outlines. that was removed in versions further down the line)

Also,

Mind you, we are talking about a presentational issue which X6 did properly.  There's just no excuse for that.

well, X4 did it too actually. it showed X's head and chest armor in his mugshot, whenever it was used. AND, it changed to accommodate whether he had the Head armor and Chest armor, or either or. I think. It didnt have mugshots for the Ultimate and Black armors though. (instead it used the force armor mugshot for the UA) X3 also did that with X's pause menu call mugshot. which also accommodated for armor acquired.

X6 though, going back there, what makes it special is that it even had mugshots for the ULTIMATE Armor, and BLACK ARMOR. the two armors that were both cheat code armors. Thats smething NO other X game has done. not X4, not even X3. anbd CERTAINLY not X8. (with its lazy armor)

[Fxeni]

Also, Im pretty sure when you start a game in a company such as Capcom, you know how much you have in the way of resources.

Yes, because every big company automatically knows how to get the most out of every platform right out the gate, right?

The Xtremes actually totally slipped my mind...

But thats just the final nail then. if the Xtremes could represent Zero's helmet well enough on the GAME BOY COLOR, then theres no excuse for a PSP game.

Are you... are you serious? Are you really comparing sprites to 3D models? Seriously?

Not to mention, the design notes dont mention any concern over resources, just that they want to skimp out on the curves in the model. AKA lazyness. if you were telling me it was something to do with his hair, or even legs, thats one thing, but the back of his helmet?

Again, seriously? The reason they decided to skimp out on the curves of the helmet was because they figured no one in their right mind would even care/notice as compared to a bigger visual item like his hair and legs. Generally, when skimping on curves, it's to save resources. This was one of their earlier games on the system, so they probably weren't sure if they would have enough resources.

You may say that to excuse the craptacular character models, however the absence of armor in mugshots really can't be read as anything but lazy.

That yes, is probably laziness. No arguments there.

As far as X8... I can't say for sure. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the matter, but I seem to recall the backgrounds of X8 being far more detailed than in X7. That might have had something to do with it.

[Flame]

Are you... are you serious? Are you really comparing sprites to 3D models? Seriously?

Yes I am. Because if they can make a proper Zero on the limitations of the GBC, and yet they cant make a proper Zero model on the VASTLY superior PSP, theres a problem there.

That yes, is probably laziness. No arguments there.

I dont see you defending with "resources" to that argument. how is it that skimmping on such a petty detail on Zero's model is not laziness but "resources", because

"Yes, because every big company automatically knows how to get the most out of every platform right out the gate, right?"

and yet the absence of armored mugshots suddenly is laziness, unexcused? When it would have taken its few resources as well, what with the different possible variations in armor percentage acquired taken into account?

Does he have the head armor? Buster upgrade? Body armor?

does he have the head and arms?

head and chest,

chest and arms,

etc? All those variations, versus a simple few extra curves in the back of Zero's head?

[Fxeni]

Yes I am. Because if they can make a proper Zero on the limitations of the GBC, and yet they cant make a proper Zero model on the VASTLY superior PSP, theres a problem there.

That's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. Bravo, Flame, bravo. Do I really have to get into the differences between pixel art and 3D models here? Nah, I won't even bother, there's no point.

Also, 3D models =/= 2D pictures.

[OBJECTION MAN]

Zero's helmet being changed is probably more of a personal preference on the designer's part, rather than a resource issue. The amount of tris needed to form the old helmet style would have been negligible, especially at this scale. Sure, it could have saved modelers a half hour perhaps, but in the end, its a needless change.