When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

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Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #100 on: November 09, 2009, 01:41:40 AM
Do we even need Rock saying anything?
He's got his heater pointed at Wily!



Offline Flame

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Reply #101 on: November 09, 2009, 01:48:21 AM
doesn't mean much. Especially when his sprites in game put an emphasis on him always sticking his buster out. its more of a "stay where you are, wily!" the same way that police point their guns regardless of circumstances.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #102 on: November 09, 2009, 01:49:54 AM
Well a part of it, yeah. They have the same moral code as a human, but with the laws included as part of that. as a "general idea" or "moral".

The key part of Asimov's rules is the forced bit.  If the rules aren't forced then it doesn't matter if MM's morals have 1, 2, or all 3 laws in them.  They are just not meant to be understood as Asimov intended.  Moreover, Wily's robots probably lack a few of those laws.  So they really aren't laws at all.  Not in Asimov fashion.

Relating to morals, even people don't share all the same morals.  And you don't have to be a gun-toting extremist either.  I don't think all classic MM robots nessasarily have the same morals.  Especially not Wily's bunch.

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play the X series. If a robot harms a human, they are almost immediately investigated to see if they are maverick. In fact, we dont know what they do to reploids who hurt humans without being maverick. Reploids who do it simply in a criminal way. For all we know, they kill them too.

I am asserting that Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic series.  Despite Megaman X.

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thats basically what we've been saying for the last page. Capcom applied them- but in their own way. as in, they took creative liberty with them.

Then you will agree that Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic MM series?  Since Asimov's laws are clearly different than Capcom's laws.  Because, at the least, one is forced while the other is not.

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Personally, I dont even see the MEGA-man 7 "die wily" bit as canon. it was the localization team thinking it was cool. and they are not the ones who make the story. They are not the writers who planned out the story.

Yeah, MM is pointing the gun right in Wily's face.

More than that he shoots him down as he tries to escape in MM2 GB.  And he always blows up his mechs with Wily himself inside, clearly putting Wily in harm's way (in blatant contradiction to the first law).  Some even show Wily all burnt up.  The games nessesitate breaking rule #1 of robotics.  


Edit: and on 0th law: The plot shows classic robots breaking the second rule of robotics by disobeying a human in a few games.  While 0th law *might* allow MM to gun down Wily in cold blood in MM2 GB (although MM7 and X1 don't imply this to be the case), it doesn't allow Protoman to disobey Light.  So, not only is 0th law implicitly denied by X1 Light and MM7 Wily it's also not enough to explain everything away.  I'm not even sure you can apply 0th law to Wily's bots; which it would have to be if classic series bots follow Asimov's rules.  0th law defence is FAIL.

Edit #2: I must be slow today.  Protoman's refusal to be repaired also violates the third law (that robots must protect their own existence) in direct contradiction to law #2 (to obey a human).  So, Protoman alone violates all three laws within the MM series ... and he's the prototype unit.  You might even say that he violates the 0th law by allowing Wily to live after he beats him in PU and 9. 


Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #103 on: November 09, 2009, 05:58:36 AM
Personally, being that since the MM Universe is completely different from ours, due to the super fighting robots and what not, there's a chance that  I, Robot was never written, and that Dr. Light is the leading authority on the laws of robotics, as well as the pie eating champion of monsteropolis!



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #104 on: November 09, 2009, 06:35:41 AM
Yikes, imagine washing out his beard after the championship.



Offline Zan

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Reply #105 on: November 09, 2009, 07:21:21 AM
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The key part of Asimov's rules is the forced bit.  If the rules aren't forced then it doesn't matter if MM's morals have 1, 2, or all 3 laws in them.  They are just not meant to be understood as Asimov intended.  Moreover, Wily's robots probably lack a few of those laws.  So they really aren't laws at all.  Not in Asimov fashion.

Gauntlet, I think you need to go back to page 3 and reread where over and over again I've explained how exactly Right's mentioned rules of robotics exist, originate with Asimov, but are not used in the same way as Asimov used them. In other words "Asimov's laws used in a non Asimov-fashion" is what I've been saying from the very beginning.

But, no, you keep on mindlessly quoting how there's no practical application and how X1 is a plothole amongst plotholes.

I've also many times over mentioned "guidelines", "conscience", "determining right and wrong for themselves" and "worrying". Those are the key factors in the practical application of the rules Right mentioned. In other words; Rockman's rules of robotics, not Asimov's, but certainly derived from his basic idea.

The guidelines (the rules of robotics) that establish simplistic ideals that a robot conscience should abide, the application in a conscience allowing Rockman to feel guilt like a human whenever he breaches his own moral principles programmed into his conscience, the concept of worrying being a unique feature that allows a robot to determine right and wrong for themselves being dangerous exactly because they can by their own accord determine that doing harm to humans is a moral thing to do.

Really, you need to get over the idea of any mention of "Asimov" having "Asimov logic" by default. From the very beginning I've explained this in Rockman logic; they're only Asimov's rules by virtue of him having created the basic concepts that lie at the root of this. Asimov logic is an antiquated fictional device that in the Rockman universe has been replaced with it's own unique variation of the core concepts of a multitude of rules that a robot creator must avide by.

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Relating to morals, even people don't share all the same morals.  And you don't have to be a gun-toting extremist either.  I don't think all classic MM robots nessasarily have the same morals.  Especially not Wily's bunch.

I think you missed the memo where Rock alone has a strong sense of justice and Wily's robots are programmed to take over the world.

Nobody said they all have the same conscience.

Also, it's strangely silly to consistently mention Blues. The fact that he is an aberration is a fact he himself attest to. It's also a well known fact that Blues has more freedom than almost any other robot.

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Personally, being that since the MM Universe is completely different from ours, due to the super fighting robots and what not, there's a chance that  I, Robot was never written, and that Dr. Light is the leading authority on the laws of robotics, as well as the pie eating champion of monsteropolis!

You're talking about the Rockman series in which Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky was written. You're talking about the Rockman series in which the Rockman.exe series was popular software from the 21st century.

Saying I, Robot was never written is quite a stretch.




Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #106 on: November 09, 2009, 07:28:01 AM
You're talking about the Rockman series in which Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky was written. You're talking about the Rockman series in which the Rockman.exe series was popular software from the 21st century.

Saying I, Robot was never written is quite a stretch.

When was Crime & Punishment mentioned?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #107 on: November 09, 2009, 05:13:23 PM
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Rockman logic; they're only Asimov's rules by virtue of him having created the basic concepts that lie at the root of this. Asimov logic is an antiquated fictional device that in the Rockman universe has been replaced with it's own unique variation of the core concepts of a multitude of rules that a robot creator must avide by.

Then you should be agreeing with me instead of arguing with me.

If Asimov's laws as Asimov saw them implemented (as being forced) don't apply, then you know what?  Asimov's laws are not practically applicable in the classic Megaman series.

Which is what I kept on saying to begin with.

The fact that some laws in the MM Universe overlap means nothing if those laws aren't forced on the robots.  The fact that robots HAVE to obey the laws is the point of them.  That's why it's a big deal if a robot breaks the laws.  If they can just do that as a matter of course (as you admit MM and co does), then it's not Asimov in practical effect.  It's simply overlap.  And it doesn't matter if MM can harm a human; it's no big deal; it doesn't make MM special.  Not as far as the laws go.

As for the plothole, fine.  I'll correct myself.  It might not be a plothole, but it might infer another set of laws within the MM Universe.  Laws that are not Asimov's laws.  However, if you think it means Asimov's laws (as it seems to imply) then it's a plothole.


Offline Turian

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Reply #108 on: November 13, 2009, 01:54:14 AM
You guys like those animes with long bouts of complicated dialogue, don't you?   owob 

And just to jump in here, I'm gonna say that unless it's written in some book, or in one of the games itself. It didn't happen. No matter how much you argue.



Offline Zan

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Reply #109 on: November 13, 2009, 02:46:29 AM
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When was Crime & Punishment mentioned?

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Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #110 on: November 13, 2009, 07:02:54 AM
In Osamu Tezuka's original Astro Boy mangas, he wrote up some robot laws that were actual legally enforced laws rather than hard-coded programs of robot conduct. Although robots were expected to follow these laws, they were able to break them of their own accord. Supposedly Tezuka wrote these independently, without in-depth knowledge of Asimov's laws. Naturally enough, one of them was a robot may not harm or kill a human being, but he didn't make use of the second half of the first rule, that a robot could not through inaction allow a human being to be harmed. No forced heroics there. In that singular aspect, Rockman's world seems more like Tezuka's laws of robotics than Asimov's. Though it wasn't Tezuka didn't bother to number his laws with any consistency, so it wasn't really his "first" law. I don't think Rockman subscribes to Tezuka's laws or Asimov's laws, I'm just exploring another potential influence.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #111 on: November 13, 2009, 07:12:39 AM
In Osamu Tezuka's original Astro Boy mangas, he wrote up some robot laws that were actual legally enforced laws rather than hard-coded programs of robot conduct. Although robots were expected to follow these laws, they were able to break them of their own accord. Supposedly Tezuka wrote these independently, without in-depth knowledge of Asimov's laws. Naturally enough, one of them was a robot may not harm or kill a human being, but he didn't make use of the second half of the first rule, that a robot could not through inaction allow a human being to be harmed. No forced heroics there. In that singular aspect, Rockman's world seems more like Tezuka's laws of robotics than Asimov's. Though it wasn't Tezuka didn't bother to number his laws with any consistency, so it wasn't really his "first" law. I don't think Rockman subscribes to Tezuka's laws or Asimov's laws, I'm just exploring another potential influence.


Hmmm, very interesting points here.



Offline Fragman

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Reply #112 on: November 13, 2009, 08:15:59 AM
Marsmallow Man, I've been reading the Pluto manga recently which is a more serious reinterpretation of Tezuka's Astro Boy series, and it's brought me much to a similar way of thinking, that perhaps robots are required by legal means, rather than by programming, to obey certain robotic laws.  Though Asimov would be an interesting angle to view the series, through it's looking more like Megaman applies the Tezuka robot laws, rather than the Asimov laws.

Though this too brings up the question of why Wily brought the point up at all if he knew Megaman could and would harm him, unless he was pointing out that it would make Megaman a criminal.  Though it could be that Megaman himself has the law hardwired into him, while others don't.  Regardless of taking the American slow speech, or the Japanese just raising the buster, both seem to indicate a powerful internal struggle. 

I thought it carried over well to Megaman 8 where this struggle seems to have become ingrained in Megaman's mind and made him a target for Evil Energy.  The whole end sequence of MM7 shows something is really weighing on him.  Now Megaman has been online for much longer than most robots, so it's entirely possible that he's developed a sense of free will he wasn't originally programmed with, just the same as Protoman.


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Offline Zan

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Reply #113 on: November 13, 2009, 03:45:17 PM
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Though this too brings up the question of why Wily brought the point up at all if he knew Megaman could and would harm him, unless he was pointing out that it would make Megaman a criminal.  Though it could be that Megaman himself has the law hardwired into him, while others don't.  Regardless of taking the American slow speech, or the Japanese just raising the buster, both seem to indicate a powerful internal struggle.

It's more of guilt and what is truly right and wrong, actually. Rock raised his weapon against a defenseless human, humans who have their place as the creators of robots. Is it truly right for Rock to do so, even if this one human has caused countless tragedies? Rock being a hero, designed with a strong sense of justice, can not quickly come up with the answer to this question but there's a feeling of guilt that overcomes him as he hesitates.

Naturally, there will be legal consequences of Rock's actions, but this is Wily, would the law really be that harsh to him?

In a similar case, in the Power Battle, Wily brought up that Rock was as bad as him for destroying countless robots. Rock felt quite guilty and couldn't come up with an answer of his own; he needed Dr. Right and his friends to help him set his conscience straight.

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Astroboy

As Tezuka didn't label his rules in a numerical order, whereas Right on the other hand, referred to something that was discribed as "the first rule of robotics". X1 certainly appears to literally quote the simplified form of Asimov's first law. Are both not somehow involved?

In regards to which rules Rockman follows, I think it's a bit of a lot of things actually. Rockman certainly takes inspiration from a lot of other series. AstroBoy being a dominant example as it has the same charming atmosphere as the classic series...

In regards to the original Astroboy, doing some googling to confirm that, I found this:

http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002winter/tezuka.shtml
Underpinning the Astro Boy stories is the "robot law," which states that the two main rules are "robots exists to make people happy" and "robots shall not injure or kill humans."

"Robots exists to make people happy"
"Robots shall not injure or kill humans."

Using the type of numeric ordering that Asimov used, which of these rules is more important?

Certainly, Rockman bases itself in the way its robots interact on the charm presented by Astroboy. But as the series progressed, and the X-series came about. The X-series being considerably less light-hearted, inspiration from other more serious series finds its way into the continuity. Not to mention the setting of Rockman and RockmanX being dominantly set in America instead of Japan. One would be hard pressed to discount Asimov influencing the Rockman series. When it comes to all that; Tezuka's "must make people happy" concept certainly isn't going to cut it in the world of the X-series, the fact that robots can not harm humans becomes much more important than making people happy, and more serious rules then those are seemingly needed.

The last few pages of discussion here seem to have mostly been born from a misunderstanding of the term "Asimov's" being the whole "forced" aspect or simply the three basic concepts that each law exhibits.

In terms of just the written description, the Asimov's rules of robotics are in their simplified form:
-Robots must not harm humans.
-Robots must follow orders.
-Robots must not harm themselves.

Let's presume you simply heard these three concepts, but also let us presume you are unaware of these rules being hardwired into and forced onto robots; these are concepts that appear to be very much common sense for robotics to follow. But, you want to make a series like Astroboy, that has this magnificent freedom and charm in its robots. How are you to make your robots follow the above three basic principles without making your robots into emotionless automatons?

I don't think it can be denied that at least 2 of those core principles have been hinted at or even explicitly mentioned in the Rockman series. Right clearly mentions the first. And Blues hints at the existence of the second. Robots are not to harm humans, and robots should follow orders.

The third might not be hinted at, but I don't think it's something the Rockman series can easily violate. Afterall,. the intended charm of the series in general doesn't even allow such a heavy concept as robots deliberately committing suicide or causing harm to themselves, outside of robot heroics and such. Asimov covered such heroics by adding a disclaimer to each subsequent law that says "unless it contradicts the previous laws".

Rockman, which does not follow the principle of "forcing" these basic rules, naturally does not have any clear hierarchy in the rules like Asimov used, following Tezuka more; Rockman surely can decide to protect himself regardless of human order. After all, if he couldn't, he would simply be one of Asimov's mindless automatons instead of Tezuka's lighthearted robots.

Rockman seems to deal with these concepts by giving them a conscience. The conscience Rock was given, however, deals with many more complex matters than simply the three core concepts Asimov wrote down. Tezuka's "robots are to make people happy" concept certainly being one thing that's part of that conscience as well, in order to make him cover all aspects of right and wrong. After all, it was the kindhearted Dr. Thomas Right, who wrote his brain.

Put yourself in the position of Dr. Right. Certainly, from his point of view, robots are are to do good, robots are to follow these concepts with equal value depending on the situation at hand. Robots are to always do good and are not to make such unfair biased choices as putting humans ahead of robots. In order to make a utopia in which humans and robots can live together, robots are to be allowed to be equal to humans, but at the same time do good without a doubt. In his ideal of robots and humans, robots are exactly like humans but robots and humans are not in conflict, there is peace, tranquility and happiness. Every one is good, robots and humans alike.

Behind Dr. Right's ideals, however, is the whole scientific community. Which is certainly a much harsher world than the one of Dr. Right's ideal vision. Such notions as robots making people happy and robots being happy themselves, are of no concern to them. That robots are unable to harm humans is something that is of far greater importance to these people than the naive concept of human and robot "happiness". As long as Thomas Right makes reliable robots, they are satisfied. As long as they obey the "absolute" requirement that a robot can not harm a human, they are satisfied.

To the scientific community, to the world, the ideas of Dr. Thomas Right to place variable worth on such absolutely requirements as the inability to harm a human, is dangerous. Very very dangerous. Dr. Right, has always been on the border of the conflicting ideas of "making robots more like humans" and "making them the human's tools".

Regardless of Dr. Right's ideal, he himself realizes this as well. With RockmanX, "worrying", he's stepped over the boundary, he created something that is undeniable dangerous, something that is entirely to be feared. Something the world is not yet ready to accept.

No matter how it pains Dr. Right, he has to seal RockmanX away until the world has become more mature. Until the day arrives that humanity is ready to accept him. After all, for all the dangers X provides, for all he is feared. X embodies all of Dr. Right's ideals, and as his heart clearly tells him; RockmanX is the world's hope. RockmanX is his personal hope.

Returning to Tezuka and Asimov. I think somehow the inevitable conflict between the cold hard world of Asimov's robots, compared to the lighthearted and charming world of Tezuka's robot, is a core concept that lies at the root of the classic to X-series transition. After all, the difference between the Tezuka and Asimov approaches more than accurately describes the transition from the classic series to the darker and grittier X-series.



Offline Align

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Reply #114 on: November 13, 2009, 05:43:47 PM
TELOS, Diary: Alouette's Good Day.
Oh, that got translated?



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #115 on: November 13, 2009, 06:06:15 PM
Astroboy's logic works for the classic MM series and it's interesting to know.  Especially since Astro is a MM influence.

The wording implies an Asimov influence, but they just might have either consiously or subconciously channelled Astroboy.


Offline Fragman

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Reply #116 on: November 14, 2009, 08:29:55 AM
Good reply ZanWell Inafune is an admitted Tezuka fan so I'm pretty sure the Tezuka connection is intentional. 

A good argument against hardwired laws would be seen in Protoman ignoring laws 2 and 3, Bass blatantly ignoring law 2 to the point of outright defying his creator.  Though it could be argued that his core purpose overrides all other orders, and that being to defeat Megaman.  Just as in Asimov's laws a robot's core purpose trumps all other orders received after programming.  Of course in later Asimov works it's said that after the initial paranoia about robots died down, that the second law was actually made weaker than the third, so that robots couldn't be ordered to commit suicide, as they were extremely expensive, and it was previously far too easy to get one to destroy its self for just about anyone.  Imagine if someone could just jump in your car and crash it into a tree.  Much the same.

Clearly robots in the MM series won't follow just any order, but do follow a purpose that could be categorized under the second law.  Protoman seems to be the only one who could be said to totally ignore the second law entirely.  Megaman's is to fight for justice, Bass to defeat Megaman, and both will ignore other orders to do so.  Though Protoman as a prototype might not have been given a purpose, thus has no second law.

King brings up an interesting idea, that he's the first robot (far before Sigma) to outright defy humanity in general and thus ignore the first law to some degree.  He defies humanity, his creator, and even self preservation, breaking all three laws in the course of one game.

You know, in the course of this discussion I think I've done a total 180 on my opinion of Asimov "hardwired" laws vs Tezuka "legal" laws. 


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Offline Zan

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Reply #117 on: November 14, 2009, 02:58:53 PM
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Oh, that got translated?

Nope, because of its length, people haven't really tried to translate it sentence by sentence. I've been told the basic gist of it, though.

Allouette's basically on a quest to find names for the Baby Elves. She talks to everyone around the base about it. -Andrew talks about his past as a teacher, and the differences between humans and Repliroids. Repliroid children are apparently much better in school than human children, but Repliroids unlike humans have notable issues with things like singing; they would only repeat the song like a record player.
-Rouge and Joan bring up nerdy facts from centuries ago. They tried naming the Baby Elves after popular 21th century software, in particular Rockman.exe3 and 4's subtitles. Somewhere along the line Crime and Punishment is mentioned too. -Zero is being mean as usual, and Ciel saves the day by coming up with their known names, derived from the French words for "to pray" and "to create".

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Astroboy's logic works for the classic MM series and it's interesting to know.  Especially since Astro is a MM influence.

The wording implies an Asimov influence, but they just might have either consiously or subconciously channelled Astroboy.

For the classic series, Atom is certainly the biggest inspiration. The X-series is a bit different from classic, though. But classic does inevitably lead into the X-series. There's certainly quite a lot of other influences here.

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Clearly robots in the MM series won't follow just any order, but do follow a purpose that could be categorized under the second law.

I think instead of thinking about the numbered humanoid robots all the time, we should extent our thoughts a bit to the less intelligent robots. The met for instance. We know it's purpose. So, how does its AI work?

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King brings up an interesting idea, that he's the first robot (far before Sigma) to outright defy humanity in general and thus ignore the first law to some degree.  He defies humanity, his creator, and even self preservation, breaking all three laws in the course of one game.

I think this is mostly the way Wily (and Right as well) programs his robots. Views of right and wrong and such. But not just that, the robot's personality is also a factor. And maybe as you say, "core purpose" is also an important one.

All in all, sometimes their own creators can't quite predict what will happen.

King is certainly a special case in that every aspect of his being was designed to be "the King of Robots". He can only be who he is, and follow his reason for being. Even if it defies his own creator, he must follow his own feelings about the complicated affairs Rock and Forte made him realize.

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You know, in the course of this discussion I think I've done a total 180 on my opinion of Asimov "hardwired" laws vs Tezuka "legal" laws.

As a result of your previous post, I started reading Pluto myself. Quite an interesting read.

I've also taken the time yesterday to watch the American produced Astroboy movie. Also worth a watch, especially to people that are fan of both Astroboy and MegaMan. It was really quite a homage to the previous versions of Astroboy.

In both stories, things like Robot Laws are occasionally mentioned. The Astroboy movie unexpectedly felt like it had a more American flair in its mention of it, like they were quoting Asimov. In one instance a robot tried to kill a human: "The robot laws, they've been in place for ## years!", to which the robot replies "I'm old school!" They constantly make it sound like newer robots are incapable of such a feat. Despite this, the robots are all lighthearted like in the original Astroboy.

Pluto on the other hand. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. But I think that's the whole point of the story in many ways, delving into the humanity of these robots and the unfolding mystery regarding Pluto. It seems that the robot laws are legal laws by virtue of Gesicht's investigation into it as a police officer, but at the same time, there's a strong impression that perfectly functioning robots can't kill a human; only malfunctioning robots can. The only exception being the incident of 8 years ago, in which no malfunction was found... Even in the 39th Central Asian conflict, the world's strongest robots could only harm other robots...

As for the original Astroboy. I admit that I haven't had too much exposure with it. I watched the first episode of the 1960s version, 3 episodes of the 1980s version, quite a few of the 2004 one, and played Omega Factor to completion. I don't recall too much of the Robot Laws being mentioned yet.
 







Offline Fragman

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Reply #118 on: November 15, 2009, 11:53:15 AM
The 1980 Astro Boy series was closest to Tezuka's original manga, and early on makes reference to a "Robot bill of rights," however It doesn't go very deep into robot law either.  The source prior to Pluto to make the most reference to robot law would be the original manga, which Dark Horse has been releasing lately, however the chronological order is rather scattered in the Dark Horse release leading it to read more like a "Best of" but it's still worth picking up.  The old manga is very raw, but there's a lot of hidden depth to it, that I think is worth examining.


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Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #119 on: November 17, 2009, 06:01:46 PM
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For the classic series, Atom is certainly the biggest inspiration. The X-series is a bit different from classic, though. But classic does inevitably lead into the X-series. There's certainly quite a lot of other influences here.

Yeah, but this conversation is classic Megaman robots VS the rules of robotics.  Astroboy is a good point.  It seems closer to the intentions of Capcom for the classic series.

I mean, obviously the laws couldn't be exactly the same.  But they just might have intended their robots to work like Astroboy's.  The laws themselves wouldn't have to be exactly the same for this intention to work.


Offline Zan

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Reply #120 on: November 17, 2009, 06:41:50 PM
The X-series is in the same universe as the classic series, one is the future of the other. As a a result, both series are undeniably connected and influence each other.

The rules of robotics were mentioned in the X-series in regards to the classic series timeframe, do not forget that. In the presented setting, there is fear of robots, there is unwillingness to advance closer to humans. Dr. Right's overly idealistic ideals stands in sharp opposition to the cold harsh reality that exists underneath.

No matter how classic tries to channel the lighthearted atmosphere of Tetsuwan Atom, you mustn't forget what classic will eventually become.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #121 on: November 17, 2009, 06:57:44 PM
I don't see that as precluding the classic series robots working like Astroboy's robots, though.


Offline Zan

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Reply #122 on: November 17, 2009, 06:59:58 PM
Nobody ever said that, though.



Offline Gauntlet101010

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Reply #123 on: November 17, 2009, 07:02:22 PM
Then ... why are you disagreeing with me when I saying Astroboy is a good point?


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Reply #124 on: November 17, 2009, 07:18:15 PM
To emphasize the importance of what I said two walls of text ago; the conflict between the lighthearted approach of Tetsuwan Atom's robots and the emotionless cold approach of Asimov's laws stands at the root of the classic to X transition. In that transition there is simply a strong feeling in the robotic community that robotics can not progress in the way of Atom, but rather in a more sterile and predictable fashion. Further advancements to make robots more human are shunned.

Though this does not seem to have happened yet in the classic series, it is the unfortunate future of the classic series resulting from the fear brought by the Dr. Wily incidents. The basis for that change already exists underneath the lighthearted Atom based classic series. For instance, look at R9's expiration date law. Why are free willed individuals so willing to let themselves get scrapped?