Topic: When Megaman is about to shoot Wily...

[Flame]

Thats true. They say only X worries and has free will, But Megaman was pretty free himself, and he was just a susceptible to mind games as X, as shown by Power fighters. Although Megaman is programmed to be a goody goody. Cuz Light is a goody goody, and he wanted a goody goody little boy around the house. X was kinda left to his own devices.

[Gauntlet101010]

The three laws are just not practically applicable in the series.  There's nothing that stops MM from blowing Wily out of the sky in 2GB.

Saying they have a losse "concience" that they can ignore is not a real application of the rules.  It's a totally different thing than Asimov's rules. 

[Flame]

Its pretty much just a sense of morals. However, they DO have the rules in their heads one way or another, whether they are forced to abide by them or not. They KNOW the rules, in any case. If Light himself mentions them, then they are quite applicable.

[The Great Gonzo]

I gotta wonder: Did anyone try to force Asimov's Three Laws on the Megaman series before Megaman X and MM7 came out?

I cringe whenever they're brought up in conversations about Megaman, because Asimov had nothing to do with the series (robots who don't constantly maim people/destroy things aside), and it reeks of fanon.

[HyperSonicEXE]

For me, it really hinges on the "laws of robotics" Dr. Light refers to in MMX1. If it's the same as Asimov's, well, that's one thing. If Dr. Light found out about the events of the ending of MM7, it would have encouraged him to build Megaman X, in an attempt to avoid any human deaths by robots.

But if Asimov's Laws do not apply, then it's just Mega Man getting sick of jumping Yoku Blocks and the damage Wily does without remorse, instead of finding a constructive way to make whatever point it was that he had in mind. Granted, though, there might still be a Maverick problem, but at least Mega Man would not be found specifically at-fault, same for Light.

[Gauntlet101010]

Its pretty much just a sense of morals. However, they DO have the rules in their heads one way or another, whether they are forced to abide by them or not. They KNOW the rules, in any case. If Light himself mentions them, then they are quite applicable.

Saying the rules of robotics apply to classic series bots is as incorrect as saying humans are bound by Asimov's three laws.

Despite what Light says in X1 the laws don't practically apply.  If you want "no plotholes" then, possibly, the classic series universe has laws like humans have laws; robots can break them at their own risk, but it is their choice.  This is very different than Asimov's laws (which hings on robots having no choice at all).  So different that you shouldn't even bring up Asimov in a MM discussion.

Which is why I maintain that Asimov's rules don't practically apply. 

[Satoryu]

I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.

Let's not forget how fast Mega Man was shooting Wily when he turned into an alien. Mega Man's racist.

That was a hologram.

[Gauntlet101010]

I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.

Well, lock the thread then.

[Flame]

Tell me how they dont apply. They dont apply to Megaman, in the same way that they dont to X. However they are still present. Remember, Im not saying that they have them programmed into their heads or any of that shpiel, but that they exist, and the robots know them, even if they dont have them. And even if they dont know them, but the humans do, even then, they exist, Light himself is proof.

For me, it really hinges on the "laws of robotics" Dr. Light refers to in MMX1. If it's the same as Asimov's, well, that's one thing. If Dr. Light found out about the events of the ending of MM7, it would have encouraged him to build Megaman X, in an attempt to avoid any human deaths by robots.

The thing with your statement is that it delves into the territory of "what is canon" that we were discussing before. The actual game, as produced by Japan, does not have the line, it just has Megaman silent, which could mean a number if things. Maybe megaman was calmly listening to wily's pleas, probably thinking to himself what a rotten person Wily is.
the American version added in "Im more than a robot! Die Wily!!" The question is more, is that canon? or should it be dismissed as a localization blunder of them doing, I quote, "the reverse 4kids thing"?

[Protoman Blues]

Dr. Light follows his own rules!

#1. Clean up after my mess.
#2. Help me around the lab.
#3. Defeat evil.

[Flame]

Dr. Light follows his own rules!

#1. Clean up after my mess.
#2. Help me around the lab.
#3. Defeat evil.

What I mean, is he outright mentions them in the intro to X1. And honestly, Im hearing some say 'if they are the same rules"
Asimov CREATED the Rules of Robotics. And in pretty much any scenario, when someone mentions "The Rules of robotics", its those.
From I Robot, to Bicentennial Man.

[Protoman Blues]

Technically, he only mentions the 1st Law of Robotics, in the X intro.  Who's to say whether he is programmed the 2nd or 3rd law into him.  I mean, keep in mind that Light is a douche.

[Zan]

Technically, he only mentions the 1st Law of Robotics, in the X intro.  Who's to say whether he is programmed the 2nd or 3rd law into him.  I mean, keep in mind that Light is a douche.

I think you missed the memo that said there's no such thing as programmed laws for robots such as Rockman. And especially not for robots such as X.

The rules of robotics have their own unique presence in the series. And your namesake himself implicated the existence of the second law. By their very definition robots are to follow orders.

So different that you shouldn't even bring up Asimov in a MM discussion.

Asimov's three rules/laws of robotics have established a presence beyond fiction; they have become a part of the real world's robotics by infamy and simple common sense in regards to autonomous robots.

I think you still don't understand what I meant with "they apply, but not in the way Asimov uses them"...

Asimov's original concept of hardwired commands is not the way his rules have found their way in reality. In reality they exist simply as guidelines for the construction of autonomous robots; it's afterall perfectly logical not to create disobedient, homocidal, suicidal robots.

Rockman uses the those notions, that have their origin in Asimov's fiction, in its own unique way; robots are given a conscience, becoming as similar to humans as possible.

[Gauntlet101010]

Tell me how they dont apply. They dont apply to Megaman, in the same way that they dont to X. However they are still present. Remember, Im not saying that they have them programmed into their heads or any of that shpiel, but that they exist, and the robots know them, even if they dont have them.

The key to Asimov's laws are that they are forced on the robots.  The robots have no choice to obey them.  

I get what people say when you say "those are MM's morals".  But MM/Proto/Bass is not FORCED to follow those morals.  So they are not Asimov's laws.  They may simply be morals, and those morals might not even include all three laws or may include more "laws".  Robots may (and probably do) have different morals.  

Furthermore, robots that follow Wily can not be shown to follow even a distortion of the three laws.  Not only do they disobey him at times, but they also fire on him (Power Fighters / Battles) thereby endangering his life ... certainly causing some harm.

Dr. Light and Wily mention rule of robotics #1, but it's not shown that it's in effect.  MM is never FORCED to obey Wily because Wily is a human.  Wily's robots are never FORCED to obey him becaus ehe is a human.  There's a deference, but there is no forced coersion, not that I can see.

Because there is no actual evidence of the three laws in effect .... then they simply aren't in effect.  X1's intro has a plothole.  Or, if you wan tto think that robots have laws as humans have laws, go ahead.  But they are not Asimov.  They key to Asimov is them being hardwired.  Forced.

[Zan]

But they are not Asimov.

Asimov's rules stopped being his ages ago.

Dr. Right is like every modern scientist, somebody that exists in a timeframe after Asimov's rules of robotics became popularized in society and the industry. He simply is the one person that figured out a way to implement the basic principles of those rules in working robots without relying on the antiquated details of last century's fiction.

[Gauntlet101010]

Dr. Light is a fictional character and the way he made his ficticious robots =/= the way Asimov imagined his own fictional robots.  That is, with forced compliance to the laws.

[The Great Gonzo]

I think you've said that enough, Gauntlet. It's been in like every post of yours in this topic.

Because almost every post after his were "But they DO apply to the Megaman series in a way."

That was a hologram.

That he had every reason to believe was Wily.

Dr. Right is like every modern scientist, somebody that exists in a timeframe after Asimov's rules of robotics became popularized in society and the industry. He simply is the one person that figured out a way to implement such notions in working robots without relying on the antiquated notions of last century's fiction.

And we're sure that his timeline and ours are one and the same because..? I don't doubt that there would be safeguards put in place (or just subjecting the robots to the same laws as humans), but honestly, I'm tired of the laws being used in canon discussions like this, even if they and other concepts of Asmimov's are popular. Too many discussions where someone says "BUT THEY CAN'T DO THIS IN CANON BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH MAGIC ASMIMOV'S LAWS ASSPULL."

[Flame]

They exist regardless. They need to exist. Its the same way that Humans know that certain things are bad. Humans have morals, yes? a sense of right and wrong? a conscience to say "murder is bad! adultery is bad! etc." The laws of robotics in the Megaman universe work in a similar way to that. They exist because Asimov created them, and Robots such as Megaman , live in the future, where the self thinking robots from Asimov's fiction writings are quite real. They therefore know of Asimov's laws, and understand them. They dont have them inertly programmed in, the same way that humans do not have morals inertly implanted into their brains at birth. It is the way that just as a human can disregard the morals of modern society and kill someone, a robot can disregard the rules, and kill a human. Its the whole idea behind the X series. Robots who have broken the first rule of robotics, and not just as a petty crime such as to rob or anything, but because they wish to eradicate humans. those are brought about by things such as glitches and errors, as well as th Sigma virus, which manipulates a reploid into Sigma's bidding.

That he had every reason to believe was Wily

Who was apparently not a human, meaning the laws did not apply there. They do not state that a robot cant harm an alien invader trying to take over the world. Plus do we really know if he knew it was Wily? Megaman never talks in the NES games. only we the player thought he might be an alien. Maybe from a story perspective, Megaman saw through the cheap trick.

[The Great Gonzo]

Gauntlet just pointed out that Light (and therefore, his world) are fictional. Their being real here doesn't make them real over there.

And I still don't see why you can't just subject robots to the same rules and laws as humans; yes, some things would have to be adjusted for the former, but there's a whole set of perfectly workable guidelines right there.

[Satoryu]

Because there is no actual evidence of the three laws in effect .... then they simply aren't in effect.  

The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

[Zan]

And we're sure that his timeline and ours are one and the same because..?

Because the world of Rockman preceding the 21st century is in nearly every way identical to the real world.

Asimov's rules of robotics found their way to real life scientist that envisioned the future of robotics. Asimov's rules from there also found their way to the reality that is Capcom's writers. Of course they're going to apply in some fashion. Not identical to Asimov's fiction, but in a Rockman fashion.

Dr. Light is a fictional character and the way he made his ficticious robots =/= the way Asimov imagined his own fictional robots.  That is, with forced compliance to the laws.

So where's the plothole? Right mentions rules of robotics, if they're not necessarily strictly Asimov's rules, then he can sure as hell apply them any way he pleases. And he did. That's how the rules practically apply to Rockman; in their own unique way.

Which is pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning:

The concept that Capcom's writers used originates with Asimov. But they're not being used in the way Asimov used them.

"BUT THEY CAN'T DO THIS IN CANON BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH MAGIC ASMIMOV'S LAWS ASSPULL."

Except, the entire previous page of discussion was about how such a literal use of the laws, DOES NOT APPLY.

[Protoman Blues]

They dont have them inertly programmed in, the same way that humans do not have morals inertly implanted into their brains at birth. It is the way that just as a human can disregard the morals of modern society and kill someone, a robot can disregard the rules, and kill a human.

.....By this statement, are you trying to say that Asimov's laws aren't programmed in, but rather are the definition for a robot's moral code?

[Gauntlet101010]

The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

Then show some evidence of them practically in effect.  Where a robot is FORCED to obey them.

if they're not necessarily strictly Asimov's rules, then he can sure as hell apply them any way he pleases. And he did.

Right.  Capcom applied the laws in their own way.  A way that is not consistant with how they are presented by Asimov: as laws that MUST be obeyed.

The concept that Capcom's writers used originates with Asimov. But they're not being used in the way Asimov used them.

Which renders the source material inapplicable.  You can not use Asimov-story logic in MM. Because it doesn't apply.  Similarily, you can't talk about how MM is about to break Asimov's rules or robotics in MM7 because Asimov's rules don't apply to MM as they apply to his own robots.  They are simply two seperate stories.  They're even less canon than Ruby Spears Megaman in a Megaman conversation.

Capcom may have been inspired by Asimov's rules, but as you say, they have gone their own way.  Asimov is no longer in the discussion.  Especially in a world where a robot can run down a human who is trying to run away.

[The Great Gonzo]

Except, the entire previous page of discussion was about how such a literal use of the laws, DOES NOT APPLY.

"They don't exist in MM's world literally, they're just differently applied" still feels like an Asimov cop-out, since they're his rules in spirit.

[Flame]

.....By this statement, are you trying to say that Asimov's laws aren't programmed in, but rather are the definition for a robot's moral code?

Well a part of it, yeah. They have the same moral code as a human, but with the laws included as part of that. as a "general idea" or "moral".

Then show some evidence of them practically in effect.  Where a robot is FORCED to obey them.

play the X series. If a robot harms a human, they are almost immediately investigated to see if they are maverick. In fact, we dont know what they do to reploids who hurt humans without being maverick. Reploids who do it simply in a criminal way. For all we know, they kill them too.

Right.  Capcom applied the laws in their own way.  A way that is not consistant with how they are presented by Asimov: as laws that MUST be obeyed.

thats basically what we've been saying for the last page. Capcom applied them- but in their own way. as in, they took creative liberty with them.

Which renders the source material inapplicable.  You can not use Asimov-story logic in MM. Because it doesn't apply.  Similarily, you can't talk about how MM is about to break Asimov's rules or robotics in MM7 because Asimov's rules don't apply to MM as they apply to his own robots.  They are simply two seperate stories.

Capcom may have been inspired by Asimov's rules, but as you say, they have gone their own way.  Asimov is no longer in the discussion.  Especially in a world where a robot can run down a human who is trying to run away.

Personally, I dont even see the MEGA-man 7 "die wily" bit as canon. it was the localization team thinking it was cool. and they are not the ones who make the story. They are not the writers who planned out the story.