The Z Buster

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Offline Hypershell

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Reply #50 on: July 02, 2009, 12:40:38 AM
No, there isn't.  And it was also missing in both Xtremes, despite the first one taking place before X3.

Yet another anomaly with the Z-Buster is the fact that the design changes between X2 and X3.  X5 uses the X2 design in sprites, but the X3 design in artwork.  X6 uses the X3 model consistently (barring Nightmare Zero, being reused X5 sprites).

For the most part I think the developers just don't care, as lacking the Z-Buster seems to be their way of cementing Zero's difference from X.  Which is a shame, because its absence is especially peculiar in Command Mission, when the gang comes under surprise attack at the beginning of the final chapter.  X and Axl are seen returning fire, and Zero is just off-screen doing God knows what.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #51 on: July 02, 2009, 12:52:24 AM
Zero DOES have 2 Z busters yknow... Its just a matter of the artwork favoring one, and the sprites another.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #52 on: July 02, 2009, 12:58:42 AM
Source?  To the best of my knowledge that's merely a popular assumption.

And the art/sprite favoring shpiel is only valid in X5 because, here's another one to chalk up to the list of Z-Buster oddities, it was artwork and NOT sprites that changed between X2 and X3.  Despite Zero's body sprites being completely redone, the sprite of the buster itself in X3 is copy/pasted from X2.  However the sprite doesn't really fit either model too well due to the SNES style's general lack of detail.

Incidentally, X5 also shows both the X2 and X3 Z-Buster models in the appropriate flashback images.  So Sensei and co. were definitely aware of the difference.  Whether or not the spriters were is another question.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #53 on: July 02, 2009, 02:31:04 AM
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Source?  To the best of my knowledge that's merely a popular assumption.

Well, X5 is the source... trashing one in plot only to whip out another at the ending...



Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Reply #54 on: July 02, 2009, 06:05:54 AM
Well, X5 is the source... trashing one in plot only to whip out another at the ending...
And you don´t think that Isoc (aka Dr.Wily), would have created a new Z-Buster to replace the one which was destroyed by Sigma´s explosion in the ending of X5?



Offline Flame

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Reply #55 on: July 02, 2009, 06:32:16 AM
I think Isoc just simply didnt rebuild the X5 one. He just left in the one he then uses in X6.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #56 on: July 02, 2009, 12:40:17 PM
And you don´t think that Isoc (aka Dr.Wily), would have created a new Z-Buster to replace the one which was destroyed by Sigma´s explosion in the ending of X5?

You seem to misunderstand what I'm referring to...

I'm talking about how in X5, Zero trashes his X2 style buster in the intro to the game. But, Zero uses his X3 style buster in the ending to defeat Sigma. If Zero had just one buster, Zero could not have defeated Sigma in the manner that he did.



Offline Flame

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Reply #57 on: July 02, 2009, 04:40:24 PM
S that would mean that X's intro stage is the one that actually occurs stoywise?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #58 on: July 02, 2009, 09:27:41 PM
I'm talking about how in X5, Zero trashes his X2 style buster in the intro to the game. But, Zero uses his X3 style buster in the ending to defeat Sigma. If Zero had just one buster, Zero could not have defeated Sigma in the manner that he did.
He can also not be using the X2 style buster against X.  But he does anyway.

So, yeah, that's a pretty weak source.  It's highly suspect as falling under developer laziness.  From a choreography standpoint, especially when videos are not in use, the Z-Buster is just easier to work with.

S that would mean that X's intro stage is the one that actually occurs stoywise?
If anything it would be the other way around.  Play as X, lose the Z-Buster; play as Zero, lose the 4th Armor.  The Z-Buster appears in cutscenes.  The 4th Armor does not.

Of course, take that with the grain of salt that that NONE of the X5 armors appear in cutscene.  Not even the X4 version of the Ultimate Armor, which is specifically shown to remain intact after X collapses unconscious, yet is gone when they come to.



......you know, it just occurred to me.  I just demonstrated, without trying to, that it's impossible to get any kind of consistency out of the X vs. Zero fight if you started the game as X.  Either Zero has something he shouldn't, or X is lacking something he shouldn't.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #59 on: July 02, 2009, 10:44:21 PM
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He can also not be using the X2 style buster against X.  But he does anyway.

So, yeah, that's a pretty weak source.  It's highly suspect as falling under developer laziness.  From a choreography standpoint, especially when videos are not in use, the Z-Buster is just easier to work with.

But developer laziness applies to the battle moreso than anything else. With the introduction stage, they went to great lengths to justify a mere gameplay limitation in the plot, creating new sprites for both X and Zero. Subsequently in the ending they're using a buster even though they justified Zero not having one before...

And in this case, they for some reason went and made the X2 buster in sprites, even though they could just as easily have made the X3 buster... All in all, it would seem they were trying to tell us something, but screwed up by not respriting Zero's buster for the X and Zero battle.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #60 on: July 03, 2009, 12:33:47 AM
But developer laziness applies to the battle moreso than anything else.  With the introduction stage, they went to great lengths to justify a mere gameplay limitation in the plot
But that's just it, if Zero does in fact hold two busters, their entire justification crumbles.  There is no reason for gameplay to favor either model over the other.  If Zero can access a buster for a last-second save, not to mention when he's missing half his body, he should be able to access it at any other time.  The number of buster models is irrelevant.

Hence developer laziness comes into play moreso for their failure to acknowledge the loss of the Z-Buster in any manner but player arsenal after the intro stage.  The easiest way to have someone finish a baddie in still shots is to shoot them; they were unwilling to draw an alternate scenario.  Same applies for the boss fight against Zero, in which one of his two attacks (big effort there) utilizes the buster.  If the artist depicts only one and the spriters depict only another one, that does not equal the story writers acknowledging the simultaneous existence of both.

Best fitting explanation I could come up with would be a healing effect of the Zero Virus restoring the Z-Buster, especially since the Virus is the full and sole justification to the change in Zero's attacks to begin with.  But either explanation, or any other that we may come up with, is still fan-based assumption.

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And in this case, they for some reason went and made the X2 buster in sprites, even though they could just as easily have made the X3 buster...
This isn't saying a lot considering that X3 didn't sprite the X3 buster.

The significance in effort to the opening applies every bit as equally to X losing his armor as to Zero losing his buster.  But in X's case it's completely irrelevant to the story, as his armor never appears in any scene whatsoever, yet they did it anyway.  Why do we need anymore reason for a 3-frame animation (which is exceedingly little effort given that Zero's breathing uses more frames than that) than to justify a gameplay mechanic that would have made no sense without it?  The entire power-up system in X5 relies heavily on pick-and-choose elements, part of what makes it so aggravating.  The intro stage is just one more piece on the pile.

I don't consider a spriting mishap to be adequate justification to Zero retaining multiple busters.  By that logic X keeps two different chest plates (the back is different between art and sprite).  The X2 buster ceased to exist in artwork after X2, by time of events, not time of drawing, as X5 itself establishes.  That's a bizarre coincidence to be showing up in a game that is allegedly supposed to be the first to acknowledge the simultaneous possession of both models.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #61 on: July 03, 2009, 12:42:30 AM
Of course, take that with the grain of salt that that NONE of the X5 armors appear in cutscene.  Not even the X4 version of the Ultimate Armor, which is specifically shown to remain intact after X collapses unconscious, yet is gone when they come to.

......you know, it just occurred to me.  I just demonstrated, without trying to, that it's impossible to get any kind of consistency out of the X vs. Zero fight if you started the game as X.  Either Zero has something he shouldn't, or X is lacking something he shouldn't.
X's armors NEVER show up in cutscenes. EVER. Its called not wanting to have to make separate images and cutscenes for each armor, or each  combination thereof. Do you think the X8 developers are seriously going to make 4 different cutscenes for each of X's armors? (Neutral, Icarus, Hermes, Ultimate) and for each part combination? and then there's Zero and Axl's secret armors. Do you know how many variations of images and cutscenes they have to make?
similar goes for the other games since X4. they have to identify which parts you have equipped, which armor, etc... thats too much. its easier to draw him with no armor. To this extent they draw him teleporting without armor im sure.

also, Zero =lazyness. in the intro, he trashes his X2 buster, and cannot use it again. Unless we say that in that scenario, Fighting Ultimate armor X is the fight that actually happens, then its lazy spriting. they didnt want to make a new set of sprites just for that fight, even though they had already made sprites for his Awakened form's levitating, and for his Giant Saber swing, and it wouldnt have been that hard to make a new set of buster sprites, even if it was just the buster and not the pose that changed.


...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #62 on: July 03, 2009, 01:01:00 AM
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This isn't saying a lot considering that X3 didn't sprite the X3 buster.

But, as you yourself admit, the X1~3 style is barely adequate in depicting what it is supposed to depict. X5 is a completely different story as X6 shows it is entirely possible.

Of course, X5 is one mucked up game anyway.... so many small weird things.

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The X2 buster ceased to exist in artwork after X2, by time of events, not time of drawing, as X5 itself establishes.  That's a bizarre coincidence to be showing up in a game that is allegedly supposed to be the first to acknowledge the simultaneous possession of both models.

Maybe we should note it down for the next round of "ask Inafune-san".




Offline Flame

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Reply #63 on: July 03, 2009, 02:09:32 AM
Good idea.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Fragman

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Reply #64 on: July 03, 2009, 02:22:42 AM
One could just write the whole issue off as being the same as "What happens to X's armor?"  Can we assume that Zero just gets so trashed in the last battle in every game that he has to rebuild his buster each time?  Sometimes they build the same one, sometimes a different one, sometimes none at all.  It's one way of looking at things anyway.  Considering how frequently he dies or takes heavy damage, it seems like a safe assumption.  Though I doubt Capcom is thinking much more beyond wanting to mix up gameplay on occasion.


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Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Reply #65 on: July 03, 2009, 01:32:56 PM
My actually question to Inafune would look that way.

"Were both of Zero´s Z-Buster armcannons still to 100% funktional, when he later sealed himself for the first time? When they were funktional, why uses Omega a Bustershot instead of the two armcannons?"



Offline Cpie

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Reply #66 on: July 03, 2009, 01:42:44 PM
Omega didn't use them cause they got too funky to be funktional XD

 I am kidding.



Offline Flame

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Reply #67 on: July 03, 2009, 02:01:31 PM
One could just write the whole issue off as being the same as "What happens to X's armor?"  Can we assume that Zero just gets so trashed in the last battle in every game that he has to rebuild his buster each time?  Sometimes they build the same one, sometimes a different one, sometimes none at all.  It's one way of looking at things anyway.  Considering how frequently he dies or takes heavy damage, it seems like a safe assumption.  Though I doubt Capcom is thinking much more beyond wanting to mix up gameplay on occasion.
X returns his armors to Light.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Align

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Reply #68 on: July 03, 2009, 02:02:05 PM
(except in x5 and 6)



Offline Flame

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Reply #69 on: July 03, 2009, 05:32:17 PM
in X5 he either returns Gaia and ditches Fourth, or loses both, and keeps Falcon. After all, 6 is only mere weeks after X5. [parasitic bomb] is still smokin hot. No time to return the armor, he still needed it.

and he returns his armors after X6, what are you talking about?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Align

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Reply #70 on: July 03, 2009, 05:46:51 PM
Not after. Before. And that's pretty handwavy of you, "He returns all the armors except the ones he doesn't".



Offline Zan

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Reply #71 on: July 03, 2009, 05:52:45 PM
It's not handwavy, Capcom actually proposed the idea. >.>



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #72 on: July 03, 2009, 05:54:17 PM
I though they get damaged beyond repair after the fights with Sigma


Offline Flame

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Reply #73 on: July 03, 2009, 06:16:53 PM
X5 was the only one in which they got THAT badly damaged. Remember X was actually pretty much killed by Sigma along with Zero. He was reduced to near scrap, a chest and a head. no arms not even his lower torso. It was Light that saved him.

...

With all that, its amazing that Alia was able to fix it at all. >.>;

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Hypershell

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Reply #74 on: July 03, 2009, 06:26:32 PM
'tis true.

Also, the 4th Armor in X5 is NOT the armor the Light gave X, it was a replica made by Alia.  This is why it lacks a Giga Attack and the head part doesn't work as well as it used to (I still say that armor should have used the Stock charge and not Plasma, would have given Ultimate a more unique feel).

And yeah, X6 is three weeks after the whole planet was ravaged by the Sigma/Zero Viruses and the nearby Eurasia explosion.  They may be over the hill, but they're not finished, so it makes sense that X isn't ready to turn in the armor just yet.

X's armors NEVER show up in cutscenes. EVER. Its called not wanting to have to make separate images and cutscenes for each armor, or each  combination thereof. Do you think the X8 developers are seriously going to make 4 different cutscenes for each of X's armors? (Neutral, Icarus, Hermes, Ultimate) and for each part combination?
In FMVs, of course not.  But still shots such as X5 uses are a different story.  Get Weapon screens of X1 and X2 responded to X's armor parts, as does his mugshot for X/Zero communications in X3, and his mugs in X4 and X6.  X5 is the odd-ball in that no mugshot, nor still image, features X's armors.

Varying images is much, much easier than varying videos.  Rather than redoing the entire image, it's a popular practice with X's armors to paste it over him as an extra layer.

However, there has been a growing amount of laziness with X's armors in recent games.  X8's armored mugshot have only one position, the armor seemingly designed on purpose to hide X's face, therefore his expressions.  MHX just ignores the armor outright, which looks really weird when at the end of the game you're seeing Vile's ride armor grab an unarmored X.

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and then there's Zero and Axl's secret armors. Do you know how many variations of images and cutscenes they have to make?
Pallette swaps in 2D artwork are ludicrously simple.

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To this extent they draw him teleporting without armor im sure.
Half the beam-in frames are reused in special weapons, so they really only save about two frames per armor by doing this.  That's more for effect than anything else, as the animation was designed in X4 when the traditional armor system was still in use.

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also, Zero =lazyness. in the intro, he trashes his X2 buster, and cannot use it again. Unless we say that in that scenario, Fighting Ultimate armor X is the fight that actually happens, then its lazy spriting. they didnt want to make a new set of sprites just for that fight, even though they had already made sprites for his Awakened form's levitating, and for his Giant Saber swing, and it wouldnt have been that hard to make a new set of buster sprites, even if it was just the buster and not the pose that changed.
Speaking of laziness, on the vs. Ultimate Armor X battle, would have been so hard to have the armor dissolve as/after X collapses?  Once again, a small effort would have gone a long way.

But, as you yourself admit, the X1~3 style is barely adequate in depicting what it is supposed to depict. X5 is a completely different story as X6 shows it is entirely possible.
But as I have often said, the inadequacies of the SNES style are more negligence than they are system limitations.  Even with those proportions some alterations could have been made.  But it is pixel-for-pixel identical to X2's, showing that they didn't even try, despite creating an otherwise entirely new sprite sheet for Zero.

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Of course, X5 is one mucked up game anyway.... so many small weird things.

Maybe we should note it down for the next round of "ask Inafune-san".
Agreed on both counts.

Considering how frequently he dies or takes heavy damage, it seems like a safe assumption.
It would be if not for the fact that he's unscathed in X6, which is when the final Z-Buster appearance is.  X3 being the last I could have bought as either Mosquitus damage or an antivirus reaction.

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