Topic: It Dumbfounds Me that People Find BBAMM Offensive

[Treleus]

http://www.rockmancorner.com/2012/09/dont-expect-bad-box-art-mega-man-game.html

I've been engaging in an argument with one or two people from the comments section of this article. Our contention is that they consider BBAMM to be an irredeemable insult to Mega Man because of bad timing and being ugly, whereas I recognize BBAMM as a fun, lighthearted joke that Mega Man fans should not be taking offense over. My argument is couched in the notion that people who are not necessarily Mega Man fans and who have played/enjoyed Street Fighter X Tekken actually love BBAMM for his silly novelty: a last-minute marketing flub cooked up to sell a new Japanese character to a Western audience. Ironically, I think BBAMM is in a position to do just that, but for real this time. And the best way he's doing that is by providing a comic foil to the same tired stereotypes of purity, heroics, and justice that we see in damn near every Mega Man hero we idolize. That people seem to be taking offense at this character's existence seems like nothing more than a convenient outlet of anger for something completely unrelated: the cancellation of Legends 3. I agree that they have every right to be mad at Capcom for how Legends 3 was handled, and I join them wholeheartedly. But BBAMM? He's a joke. People should treat him like one and lighten the [tornado fang] up.

What do you all think, true believers?

[Flame]

Its a joke that would have been fine if.not for recent bullshit. Its also gone on too long, since mm 9. Then sf x t gives us the most insulting version of him.  A fat mockery that has the legends backstory. It migt have gone over better if not.for l3s cancellation..

[Archer]

The game is called Street Fighter x Tekken, not Capcom x Namco.

There's no real reason for Megaman to appear at all in the first place so his joke form isn't surprising and makes sense since he was just supposed to be a fun addition, especially in contrast to his Namco counterpart Pacman who can't really be considered a serious entry himself.

I've never had a problem with it and I've found BAMM in general to be pretty amusing. People are just overreacting to something completely unrelated and still are over something that happened over a year ago now.

[The Great Gonzo]

I really [tornado fang]ing hate this idea that people aren't allowed to dislike ANYTHING, for any reason whatsoever.

It doesn't matter what game BBAMM showed up in; is it not to much to ask that Capcom demonstrate some goddamn tact and not include a "joke" that recent events have made uncomfortable at best?

[Treleus]

Is it too much to ask to lighten up and not be over-sensitive? You can like or dislike all you want, but there's no need for drama.

The idea that the use of BBAMM in any capacity would make Mega Man fans cry just makes me laugh. It's ridiculous. I don't care what time it is, because it doesn't matter.

[The Great Gonzo]

I don't mind if people like BBAMM; it's when they try to shame the ones who didn't into finding a poorly-timed joke funny that I get angry.

And you can argue all you want that timing doesn't matter...but it obviously does. As I keep saying, I wouldn't mind BBAMM if we didn't get him when we did, and I'm not alone in that.

[Treleus]

I don't doubt it. Nevertheless, I think the timing argument is an excuse, not a justification, because BBAMM has nothing to do with Legends 3. Disliking it is fine, but take it for what it is: a good-hearted joke. That's all it is.

[The Great Gonzo]

BBAMM has a backstory that's incredibly similar to Trigger's, and given how long ago he was planned, was likely meant to reference both MML3 and Universe. He does indeed have something to do with MML3.

And no, "timing" is not an excuse. I've already tried to tell you why, but my words just seem to keep bouncing off your skull.

[Treleus]

>bouncing off your skull

I could use the same retort with respect to you and my entire spiel, but let's not patronize each other.

The borrowing of the Legends backstory is the sliver of justification that seems to be holding up this outrage besides projection. That isn't enough for me. It is a weird decision, but not an entirely offensive one. I could understand how it would've rubbed people the wrong way at the time, but it's time to get over it. Once again, BBAMM didn't kill Legends 3 anymore than SFxT did. We need to dissociate our disappointment with Legends 3 from BBAMM--something that we know had already been formulated beforehand to commemorate the cancelled game, yes, but this is also a cameo character in a completely unrelated context. We need to consider how and to whom Mega Man is being exposed to thru BBAMM in this context. It's simply not for us.

[Flame]

BBAMM was supposed to tie into Universe and Legends 3, fyi.

[The Great Gonzo]

We need to dissociate our disappointment with Legends 3 from BBAMM

BBAMM is a freaking partial reference to MML3. It's kinda hard to completely dissociate BBAMM from MML3 when his back-story is more-or-less exactly like Trigger's.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as equally stubborn, but you're not even trying to understand how people could have such a negative reaction to BBAMM, instead writing off anything that could possibly explain it as an "excuse".

I know that BBAMM's meant to poke fun at how MM was localized in the past, or at least the MM1 boxart, and that not everyone will be bothered by timing or even know the context. I'm fine with that. What really pissed me off when BBAMM was revealed were all the people who, whether they thought so or not, were treating their opinion as objective fact and yelling at everyone who didn't like BBAMM.

Minus the yelling, that's about what's going on here. Anyone who doesn't like BBAMM is a humourless [dark hold] who is repulsed by the very idea of "fun" and not, you know, annoyed with Capcom's decision to go through with BBAMM even after both of the games he referenced were cancelled, thus making the joke thoughtless at best.

[Treleus]

BBAMM is a freaking partial reference to MML3. It's kinda hard to completely dissociate BBAMM from MML3 when his back-story is more-or-less exactly like Trigger's.

No it isn't. It's easy if you try.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as equally stubborn, but you're not even trying to understand how people could have such a negative reaction to BBAMM, instead writing off anything that could possibly explain it as an "excuse".

Yes I am. I do understand why people would react negatively to BBAMM at the time, like I've already said. The problem here is that you don't agree with my conclusion as to why, which is fine. Agree to disagree, I guess.

I know that BBAMM's meant to poke fun at how MM was localized in the past, or at least the MM1 boxart, and that not everyone will be bothered by timing or even know the context. I'm fine with that. What really pissed me off when BBAMM was revealed were all the people who, whether they thought so or not, were treating their opinion as objective fact and yelling at everyone who didn't like BBAMM.

This is implying that it's okay to see BBAMM as both an insult and a joke at the same time; that everyone is right and no one is wrong. I'm afraid I disagree. I think it's wrong to see BBAMM as an insult. I don't think it's wrong to dislike it, but I think it's wrong to take it as anything other than a joke, poor taste or not. Jokes either make you laugh or fall flat and are forgotten.

Minus the yelling, that's about what's going on here. Anyone who doesn't like BBAMM is a humourless [dark hold] who is repulsed by the very idea of "fun" and not, you know, annoyed with Capcom's decision to go through with BBAMM even after both of the games he referenced were cancelled, thus making the joke thoughtless at best.

You're misconstruing my argument, and the very premise of this thread. The title isn't "It Dumbfounds Me that People Don't Like BBAMM," it's "It Dumbfounds Me that People Find BBAMM Offensive." It's a subtle difference that nevertheless informs the tone and theme of the discussion differently from mere taste in jokes. It's the difference between a joke (unrelated to Legends 3's cancellation as opposed to it's existence) and an insult. That most of us seem to strongly be taking it as the latter is only making us look worse and breeding frivolous embitterment.

[The Great Gonzo]

It's easy if you try.

Didn't I just say why it wasn't?

I think it's wrong to see BBAMM as an insult. I don't think it's wrong to dislike it, but I think it's wrong to take it as anything other than a joke, poor taste or not.

That doesn't make it right to completely dismiss people's negative reactions to it.

You're misconstruing my argument, and the very premise of this thread. The title isn't "It Dumbfounds Me that People Don't Like BBAMM," it's "It Dumbfounds Me that People Find BBAMM Offensive."

You might've gotten me there, but I figured that by definition, if something offends you, then you aren't going to like it. Didn't want to sound like a broken record (though I'm pretty sure that I failed at that anyway).

It's the difference between a joke (unrelated to Legends 3's cancellation as opposed to it's existence) and an insult.

Jokes can be taken as insults, and if you don't get that now, you probably never will.

[Treleus]

Didn't I just say why it wasn't?

That's what I was rebutting.

That doesn't make it right to completely dismiss people's negative reactions to it.

Was I being dismissive about initial reactions? I don't think so. We're well past that point by now.

You might've gotten me there, but I figured that by definition, if something offends you, then you aren't going to like it..

But the converse doesn't apply: if you don't like something, that doesn't mean it's going to offend you. Taking offense, I think, is more an action than a reaction. With BBAMM, I don't see a good enough reason to be offended by him, or the prospect of him being promoted. Dislike it, sure, but offense?

Jokes can be taken as insults, and if you don't get that now, you probably never will.

See above.

[Flame]

Just to break up the back and forth between gonz and trelus... I never found bbamm offensive, just a joke with an unfortunate background. It was just tactless joke. It came of as insulting at first but after learning its story, just unfortunate.

[The Great Gonzo]

With BBAMM, I don't see a good enough reason to be offended by him

If nothing I say will ever be good enough, then I don't see the point of continuing this argument.

[Treleus]

Hey, that's up to you. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just saiyan.

[Flame]

I think offended is the wrong word here. IMO, the more appropriate emotion would be " insulted ". Feeling. Insulted as a loyal fan.

[Joseph Collins]

Here's my take on things: Don't hate the character just because games you were looking forward to got cancelled.  Yes, it's extremely disheartening that Capcom decided to cancel not one, not two, but three games (if you count Rockman Online) that would have been just the shot in the arm the series needed to get back on track and back in the spotlight.  But you know what?  It's not the old man's fault the games got cancelled.
On the topic of MEGA MAN (intentionally written in all-caps), or "Bad Box Art Mega Man..." he was never intended to be or replace Classic Rockman or even American Mega Man. (The angry, muscly midget on the cover of Mega Man 3 and onward.)  He was never intended to be "the one and only Rockman."  He wasn't a rebranding, or a relaunching of the series that started it all.  MEGA MAN was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek joke to Capcom USA's unique representation of and tenuous grasp on the various canons early on.  (Remember "Monsteropolis?")

Alternately, you can think of him as A parody.  Kind of like how Konami made Kid Dracula as "Dracula" as a kid.  Or how they made the entire Parodius franchise.  ... or are those insults to their respective characters and games, too?  I can never be too sure these days.  :B

[The Great Gonzo]

Don't hate the character just because games you were looking forward to got cancelled.

The character IS A REFERENCE TO THOSE CANCELLED GAMES.

And not all parodies are insults to the things they're parodying; this one just came at a bad time. And don't try to tell me that timing has no effect on how something's perceived.

[Treleus]

I'll hand it to you that it was bad timing. What I won't hand to you is that it should be held against the character anymore. Or is he still bad timing?

I guess he is, considering that we don't have a Mega Man game yet that'll placate us, but what I'm saying is what if a game comes out starring him that we could all enjoy? Would we choose not to enjoy it because we still feel BBAMM is in poor taste? In that case, it would seem like a total waste. Can we afford to be that picky at this point?

I'm not saying we should shut up about what we want, but we should probably be a little more open minded about what other people want, or what we could get.

[The Great Gonzo]

What I won't hand to you is that it should be held against the character anymore.

You know, at this point I've stopped caring about BBAMM. I still don't appreciate Capcom's lack of tact, and I REALLY wish one of those other designs got picked instead, but BBAMM himself I can't really muster up much rage for now.

but we should probably be a little more open minded about what other people want, or what we could get.

Megaman Xover looks to be so phoned-in that Capcom actually put negative effort into it. I would be more open-minded about something they actually gave a [parasitic bomb] about.

[Joseph Collins]

The character IS A REFERENCE TO THOSE CANCELLED GAMES.

And not all parodies are insults to the things they're parodying; this one just came at a bad time. And don't try to tell me that timing has no effect on how something's perceived.

Don't put words in my mouth, or I'll sick Roll on you.  She's pretty mean with that broom of hers.  XP

Seriously though, you quoted the key statement of what I said: Don't hate the character just because games got cancelled.  While it's absolutely true that "Bad Box Art Mega Man" initially started as a character in Mega Man Universe, he really didn't have any defining qualities to him, other than looking like an American drawing of an Asian guy in funky armor. (Which is more or less how the Mega Man box art looked like.)  And then along came MEGA MAN in Street Fighter x Capcom.  Visually, he was a fat, old version of Bad Box Art Mega Man, but story-wise, he was Rock Volnutt.  Naturally, for most everyone, this was outrageous and served only as a reminder of what they would never have the chance to play.

However, he was more than just the sum of his parts.  And still is.

But if you want to stick to the "Capcom did this just to [acid burst] people off" defense, go for it.  Just bear in mind, he was planned to be included in Street Fighter X Tekken practically since the beginning -- long before there was even any consideration in cancelling Mega Man Universe.  Could Capcom have removed him from the game?  Absolutely.  But they decided to go ahead and risk it.  And hopefully, they learned from it.  Though I doubt it.

Edit: I'm also not saying "don't hate MEGA MAN."  I'm just saying I may not agree with why you hate him.

[The Great Gonzo]

Seriously though, you quoted the key statement of what I said: Don't hate the character just because games got cancelled.

He's still a sorta-living reminder of what we could've been looking forward to, and it's very hard to separate that from him. As for the character himself, doesn't he come across as a bumbling coward? Even if one disassociates references, there isn't much to like.

But if you want to stick to the "Capcom did this just to [acid burst] people off" defense

I don't think it was deliberate trolling (though I could certainly understand why people would think that). Capcom still should've known that going with the design they did even after everything that happened in-between its approval and the release of SFxT could potentially raise a shitstorm (which it did). They've really got no excuse for that lapse in forethought (oh sure, maybe they put too much work into the model to throw it out--but surely they could've tweaked it without losing the groundwork).

[Treleus]

Megaman Xover looks to be so phoned-in that Capcom actually put negative effort into it. I would be more open-minded about something they actually gave a [parasitic bomb] about.

I agree that Xover looks like D-grade [parasitic bomb], but for all we know, it could be a hit with the iOS crowd. I think MMXiOS sold pretty well after it's price dropped. If there are enough iOS Mega Man fans who are either desperate, have kids, or are blithely accepting, they'll probably grab the game up. Capcom's experimenting with the mobile gaming front right now. They're not going a great job, but they're nevertheless experimenting.

But anyways, I was just talking about BBAMM, let alone Xover.

The character himself is a washed up nobody with a big heart and big dreams. He also does whatever Roll tells him to do, like climb mountains or something looking (digging) for treasure.

Speaking of the people behind SFxT, I think this is a good time to bring up that Capcom doesn't necessarily work like a centralized hive mind. There are projects conducted by separate groups and led by different people at any given time. They're the ones to make these kinds of calls, and not necessarily Capcom Heads. Before this all started, I think this was something that Inafune either asked for or thought was pretty funny and good-hearted. That was a more hopeful time, though. Now, I'm not even sure if the guys behind SFxT were even paying attention to Legends 3, but I'd be surprised if they weren't.