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Waifu · **on:** March 08, 2012, 07:18:38 AM

Although there are many reasons why people enjoy a variety of games, what is the appeal of exceptionally hard games such as Donpachi or any other shmup? Or just difficult games in general?

The Great Gonzo · **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2012, 07:32:23 AM

A sense of accomplishment, I guess.

Archer · **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:06:28 AM

maybe they're not as hard as you think they are

perhaps they're easier to a more skilled player

maybe you just suck

ever considered that, eh?

Align · **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2012, 09:44:57 AM

Failure may frustrate, but at least it causes SOME emotion rather than just walking through an easy game with a totally blank and unaffected mind. It's stimulating, which is the point of games.
It's also satisfying if a game causes you to swear "[tornado fang] that's unfair how am i supposed to deal with this bullshit?!?!" and then in the middle of a shower or whatever you suddenly realize a way to use the tools you have at your disposal to deal with it, which turns out to work perfectly.

Waifu · **Reply #4 on:** March 08, 2012, 05:57:27 PM

I know it me a month to beat donkey Kong Country as a child but still some games irritate me to no end. I know its a stereotype but is it true that our hard modes are the Japanese players easy mode?

Da Dood · **Reply #5 on:** March 08, 2012, 06:24:33 PM

It feels good to master a game, or in case of the really difficult ones, just beating them.

Of course, if it gets to a point where I'm just not having fun anymore, then the only incentive to keep going is the sense of accomplishment in the end, which is usually the moment I swear I'll never touch that game/mode again. Case in point, Vanquish on God Hard...

Hiryu · **Reply #6 on:** March 08, 2012, 07:21:13 PM

Quote from: Hanyuu on March 08, 2012, 05:57:27 PM

I know its a stereotype but is it true that our hard modes are the Japanese players easy mode?

The Japanese pool of players are a different breed than the US pool. That doesn't mean that the Japanese are an uber-elite while the Americans have the skill of a 5 year old. To me, it just seems to be a part of the way the culture and in which the Japanese were nurtured.

Back in the late 80's/early 90's, this sort of thing did happen where the US part of the company didn't want to bring a game over or toned the difficulty down because they thought it would be too hard for our feeble minds. Now a days, I don't think this happens any more.

Megaman 2 is a case where they offered two options of difficulty in the US release. The hard difficulty in the US release is the only difficulty in the Japanese release.

Super Mario Bros 2 was never brought over to the US because, again, they thought it would be too hard. Granted, this time their expectations were right, because that game is much harder than the first one. So, they decided to wrap Doki Doki Panic in another wrapping paper and called it SMB2. The actual SMB2 was released later in the All-Stars collection entitled SMB: The Lost Levels. (Also, the American version of SMB2 was released in Japan as SMB USA)

Another case is Final Fantasy IV, or as it was called II back then. They changed a lot of things, again, thinking that so many things in the game would over-complicated the game. Funny thing is, Square actually released an easy type version that was easier than the US release months later. I believe this was because RPGs were just starting to get mainstream, and also the original version itself can be challenging.

VixyNyan · **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2012, 08:27:39 PM

"Nintendo Hard" games are my favorite type of games~

It's always satisfying to beat a tough game and live to tell the tale!

Protoman Blues · **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:15:49 AM

I don't think there were ever any Nintendo Hard Games. Nintendo games are either Easy, Challenging, or Impossible!

KoiDrake · **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2012, 03:18:53 AM

Impossible is NOTHING!

Waifu · **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2012, 06:03:56 AM

Except if its design to be unwinnable then you just have a Kobayashi Maru.

N-Mario · **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2012, 06:18:18 AM

Maybe not Nintendo Hard, but..........

IWBTG, or anything with the series, spinoffs, etc.

Touhou games. Anything that has to do with bullet hell is Hard.

Seriously, I don't see how these people play these games without dying once.

Hiryu · **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2012, 06:53:53 PM

Quote from: VixyNyan on March 08, 2012, 08:27:39 PM

"Nintendo Hard" games are my favorite type of games~

It's always satisfying to beat a tough game and live to tell the tale!

You mean like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde? That one was hard, not to mention absolutely horrible.

ViperAcidZX · **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2012, 04:37:04 PM

I may be talking out of butt, but I find ironic how sometimes people wants a challenging game and games now-a-days are "holding your hands" to make things less difficult, yet people demonize games like Bloodrayne: Betrayal for being "too unforgiving".

*sigh* Wished I played more Shoot 'em Ups as a kid. Maybe I wouldn't suck at anything that isn't a Rail Shooter...

Waifu · **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2012, 06:50:18 PM

Me too.

Nexus · **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2012, 04:50:18 AM

Quote from: N-Mario on March 09, 2012, 06:18:18 AM

Maybe not Nintendo Hard, but..........

IWBTG, or anything with the series, spinoffs, etc.

Touhou games. Anything that has to do with bullet hell is Hard.

Seriously, I don't see how these people play these games without dying once.

Oh trust me, they die plenty of times. All these 'no-death' perfect runs are after a long, long time of honing and memorizing every possible thing they can. (How long varies from person to person, game to game.) Unless it's tool-assisted, then all bets are off on how good the player really is considering frame-by-frame and save states can make a gigantic difference.

Hypershell · **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2012, 03:03:35 PM

Thank you, Nexus, for proving that common sense on the internet is not entirely dead.

I'm always more into reaction than memorization, myself. Most NES/SNES games that people think of as "Nintendo-hard" give you plenty of room to do that; heck even certain one-hit kill ones like Contra take care to not let enemies spawn directly next to you. Unfortunately, many people, including many game developers, think that retro difficulty is solely about memorization (WayForward and even at times Inticreates). It isn't. Advanced knowledge always helps but it should never be outright required.

Sometimes, even if you're not specifically into games that are REALLY FRIKKIN HARD, certain ones can tickle you in the right way with visuals, music, characters, abilities, etc., that you're driven to keep trying until you nail it. That's pretty much what got me through ActRaiser 2; that game is gorgeous in every sensory input that does not include pain. And I still don't know how the hell I cleared as many Hard Mode story chapters as I did in F-Zero GX.

ViperAcidZX · **Reply #17 on:** March 15, 2012, 01:16:46 AM

Quote from: Hypershell on March 11, 2012, 03:03:35 PM

Thank you, Nexus, for proving that common sense on the internet is not entirely dead.

I'm always more into reaction than memorization, myself. Most NES/SNES games that people think of as "Nintendo-hard" give you plenty of room to do that; heck even certain one-hit kill ones like Contra take care to not let enemies spawn directly next to you. Unfortunately, many people, including many game developers, think that retro difficulty is solely about memorization (WayForward and even at times Inticreates). It isn't. Advanced knowledge always helps but it should never be outright required.

Sometimes, even if you're not specifically into games that are REALLY FRIKKIN HARD, certain ones can tickle you in the right way with visuals, music, characters, abilities, etc., that you're driven to keep trying until you nail it. That's pretty much what got me through ActRaiser 2; that game is gorgeous in every sensory input that does not include pain. And I still don't know how the hell I cleared as many Hard Mode story chapters as I did in F-Zero GX.

One of my experiences with this was Crsecent Pale Mist on PC. At first I scorned this game for being damn hard as a hack-and-slash game with no map of any kind, some enemies and bosses can ~~and will~~ be a real pain in the arse (don't get me started with Soray at Chapter 5...), and enemies are capable of unleashing all manners of bullet hell when things get ugly. But the goal of trying to get equipable items to dish some revenge on some of these guys is what sorta kept me playing.

Please, Rockin' Android, release Crescent Pale Mist (and every other doujin games you sell out to Sony ~~especially since these games originated on a Microsoft platform~~) on XBLA already.

Hiryu · **Reply #18 on:** March 15, 2012, 06:03:27 PM

Science confirms old games are hard: http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/research-old-video-games-were-really-hard-190649951.html

Police Girl · **Reply #19 on:** March 15, 2012, 11:23:03 PM

Quote from: Hiryu on March 15, 2012, 06:03:27 PM

Science confirms old games are hard: http://games.yahoo.com/blogs/plugged-in/research-old-video-games-were-really-hard-190649951.html

I find it terribly troubling that people think SMB1 is hard in any way, shape or form.
Metroid? Fine
Zelda 1? Eh, maybe second quest.
Mario 1? [tornado fang] no.

Waifu · **Reply #20 on:** March 16, 2012, 03:24:23 AM

Well, SMB1 wasn't that hard but TASVideos has shown me some shortcuts like the 1UP tricks.

Hiryu · **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2012, 05:47:45 PM

World 9 is infuriating at first. It's a pain to beat it without any extra lives. On the whole, SMB isn't hard, but there are some aggravating parts. Maybe the second quest is harder? I've never played it.

But there are definitely harder games than Mario. Ninja Gaiden and it's constantly respawning enemies, for example.

Karai · **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2012, 03:43:58 PM

It absolutely doesn't mean that said games are hard, but that they include complex mathematical problems. Just look at the original paper, there are lots of screenshots that show how the research was made.
Finding the best possible path (even through SMB level or Zelda dungeon) is a well-known problem, and a real [sonic slicer] to solve. I think that the point of this research is that people can solve these problems on the fly, without even knowing how difficult it would be for a computer.

ViperAcidZX · **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2012, 05:38:14 PM

Not sure this relates to the topic, but what about doing something to make the game feel Nintendo Hard? Let's say playing a game naked (as in have no upgrades, power-ups, etc.) if it's even doable.

One time I played through Mega Man X4 since I got bored with 100%-ing the game all the time, so went through the game with no Heart Tanks, no upgrades for X, and stuck to normal weapons only unless special weapons are necessary (like Sigma's 1st form). Completely turned things around for me and it became more of a challenge.

Hypershell · **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2012, 12:45:25 AM

A vast multitude of games can be made challenging that way, which is why I don't think much of "challenging" games that only achieve their challenge by encouraging the player to ignore upgrades (IE, the Mega Man Zero series).

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