Topic: Dark Souls

[Blue Valkyrie]

to be fair, The Lost Sinner was already a throwback to that.

True but they reference the Witch of Izalith in pretty different ways.

The lost sinner was obviously a queen of her own time (popular theory is she was Princess of Venn) but at some point acquired the Old Witch's Soul much in the same way we would from a previous owner. But it's her actions that make her really interesting, she punishes herself for some forgotten sin committed. We all would figure that would be trying to recreate the first flame like the Witch originally did but Shalqouir's comments seem to contradict that.

"Once, people tried to round up the Undead and hide them away from the world. They thought that imprisoning the Undead would solve the problem. They created a towering bastille to contain them, but in the end, it did no good. The Lost Sinner lives deep within the bastille. The fool. Trying to light the First Flame..."

Perhaps she like Vendrick had a shard of Manus manipulating her and like him hid herself away to avoid some catastrophe? Who knows, fun to speculate though.

As for The Ivory King, Eleum Loyce seemed to have been built upon the mountain where below Lost Izalith was still located (although it seems most of the old city had been consumed by the lava at this point). My theory on that is that the Flame of Chaos (what the witch of izalith tried to make to mimic the first flame in Dark Souls I)) can rekindle it's self at the start of new cycle like the first flame can.

[Flame]

thats some mighty theory crafting there.

Lost Sinner was a pyromancer, evidenced by putting out the lights with a swipe of her sword, and having pyromancer red spirits accompanying her halfway through her fight in NG+

she just, like The witch before her, tried to [tornado fang] with the first flame. only instead of trying to recreate it, she tried to re-light it. Obviously this seems to have ended in disaster of some sort.

the old Chaos is very much related to the original bed of chaos. apparently it sprouted chaos everywhere, not just that one place

[Blue Valkyrie]

thats some mighty theory crafting there.

Thank you I love the souls lore and all the fan theories thats poped out of all three games.

Lost Sinner was a pyromancer, evidenced by putting out the lights with a swipe of her sword, and having pyromancer red spirits accompanying her halfway through her fight in NG+

Agreed, the Red Phantom Pyromancers basically confirmed she was either one or had a close connection to them. Odd she never uses pyro attacks, but that might be out of atoning for her sins.

she just, like The witch before her, tried to [tornado fang] with the first flame. only instead of trying to recreate it, she tried to re-light it. Obviously this seems to have ended in disaster of some sort.

This is where I'm a little stumped, we know what re-lighting the first flame does; it begins a new cycle and restores souls to the hollowed shells of all the races. (Humans aren't the only race that can go hollow and in the intro scene of Dark Souls 1 prior the first flame everyone who wasn't a dragon was a hollow before claiming the lord souls. The Pygmy was the one who split the Dark Soul and gave birth to humanity.)

So what could have happened? She didn't try to "Re-create" the first flame like the Witch did the in game text from Shalqouir specifically says relight, as in to rekindle. Sadly theres not enough to draw a solid theory.

the old Chaos is very much related to the original bed of chaos. apparently it sprouted chaos everywhere, not just that one place

I still think it's Lost Izalith where you fight the Ivory King, the ruined platform has the same style of stone work as the city of Lost Izalith and while it's possible the Bed of Chaos' roots spread throughout the earth I don't think it's a new location. Remember all these kingdoms were built on the ruins of Lodran. Brightstone Cove is obviously the Duke's Archive/Crystal Forest for example.

Plus the way the lava is being sucked into a vortex could symbolize where the Bed of Chaos was destroyed by the Chosen Undead in the first game.

[Fxeni]

Perhaps the Lost Sinner decided to not rekindle the first flame in the end after all, much like what could be done by the chosen undead in the first Dark Souls? In the end, she may have ended up regretting the decision.

[Blue Valkyrie]

Perhaps the Lost Sinner decided to not rekindle the first flame in the end after all, much like what could be done by the chosen undead in the first Dark Souls? In the end, she may have ended up regretting the decision.

It's possible.

Although you have to wonder how much of that desire to punish herself was her own doing and what was caused by the Old Witch soul, each of the old lords you fight all suffer fates not unlike the Primeval lords from the first game. Or at least are influenced to share a similar traits.

Old Witch Soul
"Soul of the ineffable.
This once magnificent soul continues to exert influence over the land, even after the eons have reduced it to these remnants."

This is shared among all the old souls acquired in NG+

Also I just noticed while reading descriptions from items and equipment...the Penal mask (the head piece from the Lost Sinner armor set) has spikes facing inward on the eyes. Yech. D =

[Flame]

keep in mind the REASON the Witch of izalith's attempt turned out badly. (if im remembering this right)

She tried to use souls to recreate it, but most beings, all beings really, specially humanity, are by nature, creatures of the dark. hollows.

So chaos = fire + dark

I assume The Lost Sinner attempted to kindle the first flame much in the same way that you kindled bonfires in DS. It probably didn't cause as much of a problem as a botched cloning attempt, but it must have done something to cause Lost Sinner to seal herself away.

Worthy of note is the chaos bug that possesses the Sinner right before the fight.

[Blue Valkyrie]

The main reason the Flame of Chaos came to exist was due to the Witch's inability to control it. Quelana in Dark Souls 1 has this to say before she asks you to defeat the Bed of Chaos

Quelana: "Hmm... I have a favour to ask... My mother, The Witch of Izalith, was one of the primeval Lords... Her power came from the soul that she found near the First Flame. She focused this power to light a flame of her own, but she failed to control it. The Flame of Chaos engulfed Mother and my sisters, and moulded them into deformed creatures. Only I escaped, and now I am here. But my mother and sisters have been in anguish since. I beseech you. Free Mother and my sisters from the Flame of Chaos. I cannot do it myself; I lack the strength, and the bravery... But you... I realize what I am asking. But please, free their poor souls... Mother's ambitions were misguided, no doubt, but surely a thousand years of atonement is enough! "

Sounds more like the witch simply lacked the strength to control the flame, and not anything to do with the Dark. Remember in the first game Chaos was an example of fire being misused just like the Abyss is an example of Darkness being misused.

I kinda wished one of the DLCs would have given us some more information on the Sinner, she's an interesting character with her obvious connections of the Bell Covenant story line and the Witch of Izalith. Maybe she's a daughter of Chaos? One or two were not in Dark Souls 1 outside the intro and Quelana might have not been the only one to escape the destruction of Lost Izalith.

[Kieran]

Man, part way through Crown of the Sunken King--I haven't even encountered a boss yet--and I am pretty much ready to never play Dark Souls 2 again.  The team working on it obviously had no [tornado fang]ing clue what made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so fun to play, and the DLC for DS2 only exemplifies that tenfold.

[Blue Valkyrie]

Man, part way through Crown of the Sunken King--I haven't even encountered a boss yet--and I am pretty much ready to never play Dark Souls 2 again.  The team working on it obviously had no [tornado fang]ing clue what made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so fun to play, and the DLC for DS2 only exemplifies that tenfold.

Wut? How does the placement of the bosses have any baring on the quality of the DLC? Shulva has excellent level design and it's mobs punish people who just try to stun lock everything, or spam magic. Only real issue with the DLC ((all three really)) is the crappy optional challenge areas and their bosses. Main bosses are honestly some of the best in the franchise though minus Elana whos a bit of reskin.

Are you having issues with a particular spot or something?

[Kieran]

No, and I wasn't complaining about the placement of the bosses, just pointing out that I hadn't progressed far enough to actually see one in Shulva.

Honestly, I'm just... sick of Dark Souls 2.  The game has never managed to make me like it as much as its predecessors, for a whole slew of reasons (bosses bypassing armor so they always kill you in 2-3 hits, sloppy hit detection from enemy attacks, character actions being slowed way the [tornado fang] down for the sake of what seems to me like artificial difficulty).

It's not that I can't get through the DLC, it's that I don't want to.  It, and a significant chunk of DS2 as a whole, feels far more like a bloody chore to me than anything in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls ever did.

[Blue Valkyrie]

Fair enough, Hit detection can be iffy on all three games though. It's honestly not worse than the last two outside one or two weapon types. I'm not sure what game of the three I like the best, each has it's flaws and advantages.

Maybe you'll enjoy Bloodborne more when it comes out.

[Kieran]

When I say sloppy hit detection, I'm talking about situations like... my character abruptly teleporting into a Mimic's mouth, when I was standing my character's height behind it, and it was lunging in the opposite direction from me.  Yeah, Dark Souls and Demon's Souls had some questionable hit boxes, but Dark Souls 2 cranks it up to ridiculous extremes.

[Flame]

Man, part way through Crown of the Sunken King--I haven't even encountered a boss yet--and I am pretty much ready to never play Dark Souls 2 again.  The team working on it obviously had no [tornado fang]ing clue what made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls so fun to play, and the DLC for DS2 only exemplifies that tenfold.

The DLC is some of the best areas in Souls, period. Definitely the best in DS2. Shulva and Brume Tower are the best DS2 areas, and have the best Bosses. (barring a few exceptions, which still weren't that bad for the most part) Fume Knight and Sir Alonne are the best bosses in a souls game since Artorias. (which is to be expected, considering Fume is practically artorias 2.0 lorewise)

Shulva in particular is some King's Field tier mazelike dungeon design the likes of which I havent seen in ages, and the puzzlelike nature of it was something i really appreciated. And mind you i played all 3 DLC's on NG+ first, so everything hit frustratingly hard. Shulva's enemies also have a ridiculous amount of poise.

bosses bypassing armor so they always kill you in 2-3 hits,

Mind telling me which bosses? I dont remember this. Your own fault for trying to block everything with a shield when some bosses are designed for rolling. Fume Knight comes to mind.

sloppy hit detection from enemy attacks,

When I say sloppy hit detection, I'm talking about situations like... my character abruptly teleporting into a Mimic's mouth, when I was standing my character's height behind it, and it was lunging in the opposite direction from me.  Yeah, Dark Souls and Demon's Souls had some questionable hit boxes, but Dark Souls 2 cranks it up to ridiculous extremes.

looks like someone never leveled ADP. there ARE some weapons with stupid hitboxes, but you will mainly encounter that in PVP, not so much PVE. That is, if you actually leveled ADP at all.

character actions being slowed way the [tornado fang] down for the sake of what seems to me like artificial difficulty.

they are not that slow.

sounds to me like someone just needs to
[spoiler]
git gud[/spoiler]

Dont try to play DS2 like DS1, play it like DS2. It has many fundamental changes that make it very different from 1.

Poise and ADP come to mind as the biggest differences, with despawning enemies and reduced health while hollow as a close second.

[Kieran]

Mind telling me which bosses? I dont remember this. Your own fault for trying to block everything with a shield when some bosses are designed for rolling. Fume Knight comes to mind.

Any boss (or random enemy) that does strike damage, which all armor in the game is laughably ineffective at protecting against.  The most you can do is crank up your poise to ridiculous levels so you still take the same amount of damage, but it doesn't stagger you.  Rolling has... issues that present themselves in the PC version, and for the game seeming to rely on it so heavily I find it aggravatingly inconsistent.

looks like someone never leveled ADP. there ARE some weapons with stupid hitboxes, but you will mainly encounter that in PVP, not so much PVE. That is, if you actually leveled ADP at all.

My ADP is 26.

sounds to me like someone just needs to git gud

Sounds like someone needs to not be a prick.  Apparently I'm good enough to tackle every last challenge in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, up to and including Artorias and Kalameet, without anything remotely approaching the same level of frustration Dark Souls 2 causes me.  I feel like in DS2 I'm fighting the game itself more than I'm fighting enemies.

Dont try to play DS2 like DS1, play it like DS2. It has many fundamental changes that make it very different from 1.  Poise and ADP come to mind as the biggest differences, with despawning enemies and reduced health while hollow as a close second.

Health reduction after death is not new.  It was a major thing in Demon's Souls, and was in fact more harsh--you dropped to 50% max health after ONE death.  Poise is unquestionably important, but it only takes you so far--even if you don't get staggered when you take a hit, you still lose the same amount of health.  Strike damage working the way it does, no amount of poise is going to save you if you're relatively low on health and a boss with a large weapon manages to get in a glancing blow.

[Blue Valkyrie]

Odd, i've never encountered any issues with Rolling on the PC version, my agility was at 100 where you gain the most I-Frames from your roll. As for the high damage from bosses? That should only be an issue on NG++ and beyond, as long as you have 25 points of Vig or higher you should be able to take at least three to four hits before you need to chug an estus.

By NG+++ though the damage is high enough that you should be trading out heavy armor to maximize your mobility, like the last two games heavy armor just can't guard against the damage output of mobs and bosses anymore. Well unless you have enough equip load to fast roll.

Example: On NG++++ with 50 points of Vig I can tank two swipes from Aava in Co-op wearing the following gear
Crown of the Ivory King+5
Black Robe+5
Drakeblood Gauntlets+10
Raime's Leggings+3 (currently)

That set up is purely fasion souls and is hardly giving me any defense or poise and I've been doing okay. I co-op against a lot of the hardest hitting bosses and I rarely die even if I get combo'd twice. Even in PvP dueling I do okay.

Kieran whats your build right now I might be able to help you out if you want?

[Kieran]

You actually gain the most iframes at 120 AGI--100 is 12 frames, which is what I've got (120 AGI is 16 frames).  The thing of it is, and bear in mind this seems to vary wildly with hardware specs of the PC in question, but there's a weird issue with the game where running it at 60 FPS messes with the timer values of certain things like durability and iframes while rolling.  The durability thing is well known--weapons degrade twice as fast in the PC version, generally speaking.

The rolling thing is less known, and for some reason it seems to affect some people worse than others.  In my case, with the game running at 60 FPS, I still only get 12 iframes when rolling, but the game is counting enemy attacks as doing damage for twice as many frames, and so instead of a half-second worth of invincibility I get a quarter of a second.  I have managed to work around this by limiting the game's FPS to 30 in my video drivers, and it makes a world of difference, but it causes other issues like increasing input lag.  So... damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I'll post a screenshot of my status screen later.  I haven't got time right now.

[Flame]

Any boss (or random enemy) that does strike damage

I had no more problem with them than any other boss/enemy type. they all hit hard if they catch you.
honestly I shouldnt criticize, since most of my playthrough in NG and NG+ was with a greatshield.

My ADP is 26.

then im surprised you have much trouble. I had 20 adp and I had minimal trouble with dodgy hitboxes.

Apparently I'm good enough to tackle every last challenge in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, up to and including Artorias and Kalameet, without anything remotely approaching the same level of frustration Dark Souls 2 causes me.  I feel like in DS2 I'm fighting the game itself more than I'm fighting enemies.

DS1 gave me far more frustration than DS2 personally. on the matter of slower animations, DS1 felt slower to me. even more so with the locked 3fps on consoles

Health reduction after death is not new.  It was a major thing in Demon's Souls, and was in fact more harsh--you dropped to 50% max health after ONE death.

Still, its that combined with other things like poise and whatnot.

DS2 is very much a bizzare combo of DkS and DeS elements

Kieran whats your build right now I might be able to help you out if you want?

this. im curious to see your build/stats

[Blue Valkyrie]

You actually gain the most iframes at 120 AGI--100 is 12 frames, which is what I've got (120 AGI is 16 frames).  The thing of it is, and bear in mind this seems to vary wildly with hardware specs of the PC in question, but there's a weird issue with the game where running it at 60 FPS messes with the timer values of certain things like durability and iframes while rolling.  The durability thing is well known--weapons degrade twice as fast in the PC version, generally speaking.

The rolling thing is less known, and for some reason it seems to affect some people worse than others.  In my case, with the game running at 60 FPS, I still only get 12 iframes when rolling, but the game is counting enemy attacks as doing damage for twice as many frames, and so instead of a half-second worth of invincibility I get a quarter of a second.  I have managed to work around this by limiting the game's FPS to 30 in my video drivers, and it makes a world of difference, but it causes other issues like increasing input lag.  So... damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I'll post a screenshot of my status screen later.  I haven't got time right now.

Sorry 120, derp on my part. Really wow I had no idea about the issues plaguing the PC version, I play the PS4 version, and only tried the PC version for a run at my friend's place.

But yeah send a pic my way when you can I might be able to recommend a few changes.

(My current main character)
Ruelia
Soul Level 262
Soul Memory (blegh) 19485984
VGR 51
END 40
VIT 30
ATN 30
STR 50
DEX 50
ADP 24
INT 25
FTH 25

Black Knight Greatsword+5/Bone Fist+5
Bone Fist+5/Retainer Staff+10
Head - Crown of the Ivory King+5
Body - Black Robes +5
Arms - Drakeblood Gauntlets+10
Legs - Raime's Leggings+2
Ring 1 - Ring of Blades+2
Ring 2 - Ring of Steel Protection +2
Ring 3 - Chloranthy Ring+2
Ring 4 - Ring of the Living (To appear as a human rather than a phantom when in co-op/invasion)

[Fxeni]

The only issues I've had on the PC version was the durability, really. Then again, I rarely used a shield in DS2 so dodging was my jam (since the parry timing was changed to something that was not to my liking).

[Blue Valkyrie]

Not having a shield equipped is also a huge buff to you're fashion souls power levels.

[Flame]

figure I might as well post my stats then

[Blue Valkyrie]

That stash!

[Phi]

With a name like Sir Wagner, I doubt he's allowed near children.

[Flame]

With a name like Sir Wagner, I doubt he's allowed near children.

i dont get it

[Da Dood]

It's weird, though... so many people complain about the hit detection (even with ADP through the roof) that I wouldn't doubt there being something odd happening. I don't have a lot of hit detection issues in DkS2 personally, but maybe I don't remember too well, or maybe my whiffed attacks should have connected and I just shrugged it off.

I've shared my opinion on the DLC here, but I understand Kieran's frustration. One thing I noticed is that, for good or bad, sometimes it's hard to pinpoint exactly just what the hell DkS2 is trying to do.

If it helps, I did the whole DLC in NG++, and I played through it in the mindset of knowing I'd be frustrated somewhere, but also that I would see interesting things. Overall, that was the ideal mindset for me. Sunken City was a blast to explore, I took my time and really enjoyed the nuance of the level design. The bosses, not so much. The other two DLCs were more of a struggle, but I'm convinced now it's probably because I was anxious about being in NG++ and not wanting bosses to take forever to die (which they do, and I still don't agree with). The level design in Iron King and Ivory is definitely interesting enough, often brilliant.

I'd say they're worth slugging through, despite most of the bosses being really uninspired. I don't agree that they're among the best in the series, not even Sir Alonne, which is a pretty cool fight. I feel that Artorias of the Abyss handled the bosses much better, making them increasingly more epic (sorry for using that cliche word), challenging, and not relying on recycled content, numerical advantage or super long treks to make them difficult. I generally don't mind running a long distance to fight a boss in these games because there's always a way to make the trip less painful and I kinda enjoy figuring it out. But I guess because I was in NG++, the added Black Phantoms, overall enemy defense and boss HP were a little discouraging every time I died. It's like they want you to consider despawning enemies as a solution, but they don't necessarily understand how much of a bore that is if you're doing it on purpose. It's a trade, but not the best trade in these DLCs because (again IMO) for the most part, the bosses aren't worth the long trip.

Nothing I'm saying here is set in stone, though, it's just impressions and I could be wrong. I will definitely do the DLC in regular NG one of these days, and hopefully will change my opinion for the better.