Topic: The "gift" of mortality

[Align]

Why did they choose to limit reploid lifespans instead of allowing humans to change their bodies entirely to machines as they grew older? A workforce that can keep working indefinitely bar accidents, and grows ever more skilled... And overpopulation could be managed as long as you enforce sterility and abandon production of new reploids.

[Flame]

Review those last two measures. So those sound appealing at all? YOU CANT HAVE A FAMILY. NOPE.

Overpopulation would rock the place. no amount of sterility laws are going to prevent people from reproducing.

And besides, even with lifespans, they still live an exorbitant amount of time. Recall Ciel disappearing only shortly before ZX. That's 200 years after the Zero series. And whatsis name in ZXA claiming to be an "old model" reploid. (And looking it too) Reploids and humans have lifespans, but still live very long lives. lives more than long enough to set their affairs in order.

[Align]

But they still die, which certainly isn't something everyone would choose if it was a choice, rather than a law.
As for family, if you had a machine body you could probably opt out of biological urges (and of course, just because you have an urge doesn't mean it's okay to act on it); people would adapt. And I meant law in the enforced sense, just like the limited lifespans.

[Hypershell]

So no family, no new people, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can hypnotize themselves?

Align, do us all a favor and don't dominate the world.


"Biological urges" are not a simple matter of a to-do list.  People work for two reasons: to care for others, and to care for themselves.  To many people of reasonable age, taking care of loved ones constitutes the better part of motivation in life.  Deny the world the chance to start a family of their own, and your ideal work force breaks down.  Do so to a population that is virtually immune to hunger and the elements and it only gets worse.  Basic needs become non-threatening (the immortal don't really "need" food and shelter) and selfish gain becomes the only thing to work towards.  Assuming for the sake of decency that you somehow curb that, and there's little to nothing left.

Immortality can be a curse if life becomes too monotonous.  We, as a people, continually generate new experiences.  When that is lost, life is meaningless.  Weil himself suffered that, and MegaMan is far from the first piece of fiction to touch on the topic.  "Death Wish" on Star Trek Voyager is one of my favorites.  "Nobody says anything, because it's all been said."

Or hell, just look at the Master and Elysium in Legends 2.

[Align]

So no family, no new people, and if anyone has a problem with that, they can hypnotize themselves?

Align, do us all a favor and don't dominate the world.

Heh, well, I wouldn't take such drastic measures without having a big debate first. I'm a fair ruler.

"Biological urges" are not a simple matter of a to-do list.  People work for two reasons: to care for others, and to care for themselves.  To many people of reasonable age, taking care of loved ones constitutes the better part of motivation in life.  Deny the world the chance to start a family of their own, and your ideal work force breaks down.  Do so to a population that is virtually immune to hunger and the elements and it only gets worse.  Basic needs become non-threatening (the immortal don't really "need" food and shelter) and selfish gain becomes the only thing to work towards.  Assuming for the sake of decency that you somehow curb that, and there's little to nothing left.

Reploids may not need to eat or sleep, but their existence isn't economically free at all, as MMZ tells us...
Your family as it is would still exist and of course you could still form bonds with new people, so it's not like society would become a sea of lone individuals. People would still care for each other, though things like marriage might become sort of nebulous; I could imagine both parts agreeing to see what life is like with other significant others.
Plus there are other things in life than working for money that people enjoy, like art and sciences of all sorts, so I doubt all that will be left for people to do is be selfish when they have little want of anything.

Immortality can be a curse if life becomes too monotonous.  We, as a people, continually generate new experiences.  When that is lost, life is meaningless.  Weil himself suffered that, and MegaMan is far from the first piece of fiction to touch on the topic.  "Death Wish" on Star Trek Voyager is one of my favorites.  "Nobody says anything, because it's all been said."

I don't think that last would really happen; the universe is vast, our time in it short and our senses too narrow to get to appreciate all of it even if we live until the end of everything. And of course we're not going to FORCE people to stay alive; we're just not going to force them to age and die, either.

Or hell, just look at the Master and Elysium in Legends 2.

Not played it, unfortunately.

[Hypershell]

Reploids may not need to eat or sleep, but their existence isn't economically free at all, as MMZ tells us...

There are only so many kinds of labor that relate to energy resources.

Your family as it is would still exist and of course you could still form bonds with new people, so it's not like society would become a sea of lone individuals. People would still care for each other, though things like marriage might become sort of nebulous; I could imagine both parts agreeing to see what life is like with other significant others.

Defeats the point of marriage, I'd say.

"As it is" is the whole problem.  Families are supposed to shift over time.  You gravitate away from the people who raised you, and your ability to do so is a testament to how successful they were (or what a great self-tutor you are, if they sucked at it).  The immature grow self-sufficient until they feel comfortable taking care of others, at which point they establish a new branch.  If you enforce sterility, those who grow up find that they are not needed.  The family unit hits an impass and only those who find fulfillment in work can adjust.

The core problem, both in family and labor, of "immortality + sterilization", is that the world effectively stagnates.

Plus there are other things in life than working for money that people enjoy, like art and sciences of all sorts, so I doubt all that will be left for people to do is be selfish when they have little want of anything.

You're still working for people, though, just not in the material sense.  The arts exist either to inspire others or to express and satisfy yourself.  But not everyone is creative, and not everyone who is feels that they can make a big enough impact that it's worthwhile.

I don't think that last would really happen; the universe is vast, our time in it short and our senses too narrow to get to appreciate all of it even if we live until the end of everything. And of course we're not going to FORCE people to stay alive; we're just not going to force them to age and die, either.

Irrelevant.  Except in cases of extreme suffering, life is not something that is ended by choice.  

Not played it, unfortunately.

You are dead to me, and can get started on your resurrection by watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXflsg011Es
Even so, you'd best get your soulless husk into some PS1 action.  NOW.

Basically, perfection itself was the problem.  There was no death, no hunger, no disease.  And after about three millennia or so of no hardship, there was no appreciation.  Those on top followed their whims, those on the bottom had their duty.  That was all there was to life.  The Master decided they'd lost too much in that shift.

[Align]

There are only so many kinds of labor that relate to energy resources.

I meant energy would be the new food.

Defeats the point of marriage, I'd say.

I don't see the connection. If the love remains indefinitely, then there's no need to separate, but if it doesn't they shouldn't be forced together for eternity; the marriage contract as it is now doesn't actually expect the two to live forever, so doesn't take it account. Naturally it would change, or fall out of use.

"As it is" is the whole problem.  Families are supposed to shift over time.  You gravitate away from the people who raised you, and your ability to do so is a testament to how successful they were (or what a great self-tutor you are, if they sucked at it).  The immature grow self-sufficient until they feel comfortable taking care of others, at which point they establish a new branch.  If you enforce sterility, those who grow up find that they are not needed.  The family unit hits an impass and only those who find fulfillment in work can adjust.

As someone who does find fulfilment in work I'm not sure how to approach this. Is it the case then, that most people would feel like they have no purpose in life if they can't have children? (which I guess is biologically correct, but doesn't have to be that way in practice)

The core problem, both in family and labor, of "immortality + sterilization", is that the world effectively stagnates.

Hmm... people would stop changing and learning?

You're still working for people, though, just not in the material sense.  The arts exist either to inspire others or to express and satisfy yourself.  But not everyone is creative, and not everyone who is feels that they can make a big enough impact that it's worthwhile.

So these people work for money in our current society, and would have nothing to do without that? I don't believe that, either.

Irrelevant.  Except in cases of extreme suffering, life is not something that is ended by choice.

Which is my point. Enforcing death is the utmost cruelty.

You are dead to me, and can get started on your resurrection by watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXflsg011Es
Even so, you'd best get your soulless husk into some PS1 action.  NOW.

Well, I played the first game for the 64, so I didn't completely miss out. Just wasn't impressed enough by it to get the sequel, though I had forgotten how bad Megaman's voice was.

Basically, perfection itself was the problem.  There was no death, no hunger, no disease.  And after about three millennia or so of no hardship, there was no appreciation.  Those on top followed their whims, those on the bottom had their duty.  That was all there was to life.  The Master decided they'd lost too much in that shift.

This is perhaps excessively cynical, but how is that different from now? If you believe there's a better fate after death, I could see feeling that immortality does more harm than good, but...

[Flame]

Because as things are say, right now, even those on the bottom have whims, and live their lives. On Elysium, that was lost. the bottom did nothing but their duty, and nothing else. No lives, no whims, only their duty. And the top followed their whims with no aim, no goals or thoughts in life. A life of empty meaningless perfection.

[Krystal]

Because if the population was gonna remain exactly the same and there wasn't a flux or a deadline or a target, the general robot/human/whatever sentient being will start to wonder

[spoiler]WHAT AM I WORKING FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR?![/SPOILER]

Also, children are cute. I sure as hell ain't livin' in a world without them.

On the serious side, basically, despair gives meaning to joy, hunger gives meaning to food, disease gives meaning to health. Death gives meaning to life.
Simple as that.

[Mirby]

Exactly. Nothing has meaning, has purpose, without its opposite. Light needs shadow, cold needs warmth, loneliness needs company, wet needs dry, etc. When you take away half of the equation, its whole meaning is lost.

[Align]

Yes, yes, there are loads of adages and sayings like that, but I can't help but feel it's a case of sour grapes; we've never been in a position to have anything else so we're going to justify it as being better in the first place anyway.

Because as things are say, right now, even those on the bottom have whims, and live their lives. On Elysium, that was lost. the bottom did nothing but their duty, and nothing else. No lives, no whims, only their duty. And the top followed their whims with no aim, no goals or thoughts in life. A life of empty meaningless perfection.

I see... but is that scenario really inevitable? Self-improvement and exploration seems like they'd go on forever.
Heck, consider terraforming Mars into a habitable planet; people could have children as long as there's space and resources, so huge projects like that could give them something to look forward to as well as something meaningful to work on, if the old urges are retained.

[Krystal]

What. What? Whaaaaaaaat? Do you have no imagination? Or is your brain stuck in 'idealism'?

This is a simple matter of relativity. Walk from a bright room into a normal one. Does it look dark or light? Walk from a dark room into a normal one, does it look dark or light? You can try this at home by the way.
Go inside a 25 degree area after being out in the hot sun. Go inside a 25 degree area after being out in the snow.

People living in eternal happiness with no fear of death will never be able to appreciate the glory of being alive. Living and 'happiness' will be the normal state. There won't be anything higher to look forward to or to enjoy.

And then there is the question: Why? Why are you continually trying to work towards something 'better'? To continually improve technology and your skills and your self? What's the point? You're happy, you're immortal, you're perfect. Everyone is friends with each other, there are no flaws anywhere. What else do you want? Nothing.
...Oh.
Right well...that's awkward.

[Mirby]

Its not an adage; its fact. Think on this: if there was no such thing as darkness, by what would we define light? There'd be nothing, as it would be a persistent condition that we wouldn't think on. The same goes for life without death. When there is no comparison, no opposite, there is no meaning. The very fact that death exists makes life precious; we only have a limited time in life so we use it the best way we can.

By giving Reploids lifespans, it gave their existence a value that simply didn't exist before.

[Align]

Obviously. It's just not very meaningful, especially since death would still be there - at the end of the universe, if nothing else.

[Mirby]

But that's after an eternity of meaningless existence, far too distant in time to give meaning to anything.

[Flame]

Obviously. It's just not very meaningful, especially since death would still be there - at the end of the universe, if nothing else.

Thats assuming their universe will end.

[Align]

That's... true. I suppose with Cyberspace capable of altering reality, the MM universe isn't necessarily bound by inevitable entropy.

But that's after an eternity of meaningless existence, far too distant in time to give meaning to anything.

The fact that it's still there as a "threat" would be enough to give contrast. And what of non-aging-related deaths?

[Flame]

Such as? There would be none in a perfect world.

Except for mavericks of course, which even the master system seemed to have.

[Align]

But the idea wasn't a perfect world, it was humans with machine bodies.

[Tri Hex]

But the idea wasn't a perfect world, it was humans with machine bodies.

I thought they were like cyborg bodies 

[Align]

Well, humans with machine parts. I don't remember how exactly they phrased it in MMZX...

[Zan]

After a certain degree of age, by law, the flesh body can partially or fully be replaced with machine. Those fully replaced will have their flesh bodies stored in a facility somewhere and are given a Hu Number to indicate such.

[Align]

Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.

[Tri Hex]

Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.

Your still a cyborg if you have a human brain.

[Zan]

Hmm... Is it still a cyborg if it's 100% machine but was originally flesh?
Guess asking "why can't they have their bodies replaced" was incorrect then, but the question of the enforced ageing remains so I'll leave it for posterity.

Note that only the humans that had their bodies fully replaced, are able to be Rockmen. Especially the model A user would require such, transforming the whole body to forms much bigger and much smaller.

The biggest message here; the equality laws are ultimately all part of two madmen's masterplans.