MegaMan Legends 3 is REAL, AND IT'S SPECTACULAR...LY IN 3-D

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Offline Kieran

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Reply #425 on: October 09, 2010, 02:16:19 AM
It was more a jab at Capcom's apparent attitude of "this isn't important enough to work on ourselves," Zan.  Although there are many, many elements of Inti's games that get on my nerves to a great degree.

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Reply #426 on: October 09, 2010, 02:36:07 AM
Anyone remember the whole deal of Z1 just being one title (by the words of the creator himself)? I think Collection fufills that.  -_-

It was more a jab at Capcom's apparent attitude of "this isn't important enough to work on ourselves," Zan.  Although there are many, many elements of Inti's games that get on my nerves to a great degree.

One aspect is wasted potential on some of those designs. I REALLY liked Ceil's beta outfit.  >w<

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Reply #427 on: October 09, 2010, 03:21:33 AM
That's quite a silly objection when the game outright refers to Sera and Geetz as Ancients.
I agree, although you could really pick it apart in several different ways.  Sera and Geetz claimed to be the Carbon ancestors which is a load of crock; Carbons were created artificially per the Master's recollection.  They also lied as to the Keys being related to Refractor production.

I think said weirdo believed that "Ancients" should refer solely to "true humans", as in Yuna referring to the CRP restoring them.  I could be wrong, it was a long time ago.  But I don't buy it, since no context has implied that the term refers to race rather than timeframe.

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Nevertheless, Inti's oversights have never been of the same kind that broke X5, X6 and X7. They're more of a personal preference thing than anything else.
There are personal preference issues (four games and no Earth Gaizer variant is simply wrong), but it's more than that.  Their buster charge mechanics are more extreme than other games, undermining the value of rapid-fire attacks and rendering them all but worthless against bosses.  They have a severe inability to vary saber skills between games (ZX's Arc Blade excepted).  When they finally introduced weapon energy to ZX they offered absolutely no restore points for it (Classic/X recharge it after every non-castle stage, as Zero/ZX do with health).  And in both ZX games, they leave valuable power-ups in the post-game with no New Game Plus to take full advantage of them.  It's especially offensive in Advent, given how nearly all of the Chip upgrades are in that boat.

I rather despise MM9's stage layout, as well.  Too often the game blindsides you in ways that no X game can compete with.  At least in an X-series game you have aerial maneuvers in case you're dropped directly onto a spike pit with no prior warning that spikes are even in the stage (Splash Woman), and you will not be grabbed by completely off-screen enemies with literally no reaction time while they threaten to ram you into a spike wall/pit (Galaxy Man, Wily Fortress, ENDLESS ATTACK).  Further, 9 makes frequent use of enemies who chase you very nearly as fast as you can run (potted plant missiles), which is a terrible time to decide that you're no longer allowed to slide.

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Offline NEO Ness

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Reply #428 on: October 09, 2010, 05:18:37 AM
-In Mega Man 9's Defense=  I'm pretty sure they were trying to simulate the whole "Difficulty with old games" feeling, as well as give a new challenge to people who beat Mega Man 1 through 8.

-Seeing Inti not being involved might be a good thing=

Inti made decent games (I'm not to particularly fond of the Z series all that much, I did like ZX a lot, ZX advent has been if-y)  

Inti makes a lot of Anime2D/Side-Scrollers stuff, were-as Mega Man Legends is Anime3d/Cell-Shaded.  Its not too far 'out of their league', but a good example is with Earthbound and Earthbound 64.  The Earthbound (MOTHER) team wasn't used to making 3D games on the 64, so the Earthbound 64(MOTHER3) was actually almost done (with many bugs and errors being corrected left and right) and they took too long.  With many things not finished and unpolished, they canceled the project when the announcement of the GC raised hype.

So, they eventually made (After a long time, with little hope) a MOTHER3 for the GBA.  

When Legends gets the old team back, as well as others used to new-gen stuff as well, tackling a new project of 3D head-on with less to hold them back (severe handicap of lack of 3D games developed frequently), I'd say it was a really smart move on CAPCOM's part.

No offense Inti.

(I always saw MML1 being like a 'test-run' for MML2.  Kind of "Make the engine, and get used to this, because we're going to do MUCH better on the next one" type of thing)



Offline Zan

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Reply #429 on: October 09, 2010, 02:37:17 PM
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Sera and Geetz claimed to be the Carbon ancestors which is a load of crock; Carbons were created artificially per the Master's recollection.

Since it were the Ancients that created the robotic Decoys, and Sera is both a robot and an Ancient herself. I'd say the term "ancestors" is pretty fitting. Also recall Rock's original configuration being similar to a Decoy.

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They also lied as to the Keys being related to Refractor production.

To be fair there's a great deal of confusion with the "Great Legacy" which the Decoys refer to as the "Mother Lode." Both the Mother Lode and the Great Legacy would be Heaven's library, which could truthfully contain the knowledge of the Ancients to even create Deflectors. However, since it more importantly hold the Ancient's genetic information, the "Mankind Playback Plan" much more holds the Ancient's personal interest.

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There are personal preference issues (four games and no Earth Gaizer variant is simply wrong), but it's more than that.  Their buster charge mechanics are more extreme than other games, undermining the value of rapid-fire attacks and rendering them all but worthless against bosses.  They have a severe inability to vary saber skills between games (ZX's Arc Blade excepted).  When they finally introduced weapon energy to ZX they offered absolutely no restore points for it (Classic/X recharge it after every non-castle stage, as Zero/ZX do with health).  And in both ZX games, they leave valuable power-ups in the post-game with no New Game Plus to take full advantage of them.  It's especially offensive in Advent, given how nearly all of the Chip upgrades are in that boat.

I rather despise MM9's stage layout, as well.  Too often the game blindsides you in ways that no X game can compete with.  At least in an X-series game you have aerial maneuvers in case you're dropped directly onto a spike pit with no prior warning that spikes are even in the stage (Splash Woman), and you will not be grabbed by completely off-screen enemies with literally no reaction time while they threaten to ram you into a spike wall/pit (Galaxy Man, Wily Fortress, ENDLESS ATTACK).  Further, 9 makes frequent use of enemies who chase you very nearly as fast as you can run (potted plant missiles), which is a terrible time to decide that you're no longer allowed to slide.

For the most part, I see the above complaints as the very minor balance issues between different Rockman titles. Much like Special Weapons being useless in one game, and being epic in the the next. For other parts, it's the ever important need for a series to have its own identity, not becoming a mere copy of its predecessor and thus threading new ground.

Surely they could have done better at that time, but given the natural time constraints of game production, it's not something I would fault them or the game for. Also remember that they are always still learning, as evident from the difference of Rockman10 and Rockman9. In general, I'd say these issues aren't just Inti's, they are shared by even Capcom's NES and SNES greats, and cannot at all compare the problems that plagued the aforementioned three X-series titles.

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-Seeing Inti not being involved might be a good thing=

Inti made decent games (I'm not to particularly fond of the Z series all that much, I did like ZX a lot, ZX advent has been if-y) 

Inti makes a lot of Anime2D/Side-Scrollers stuff, were-as Mega Man Legends is Anime3d/Cell-Shaded.  Its not too far 'out of their league', but a good example is with Earthbound and Earthbound 64.  The Earthbound (MOTHER) team wasn't used to making 3D games on the 64, so the Earthbound 64(MOTHER3) was actually almost done (with many bugs and errors being corrected left and right) and they took too long.  With many things not finished and unpolished, they canceled the project when the announcement of the GC raised hype.

So, they eventually made (After a long time, with little hope) a MOTHER3 for the GBA. 

When Legends gets the old team back, as well as others used to new-gen stuff as well, tackling a new project of 3D head-on with less to hold them back (severe handicap of lack of 3D games developed frequently), I'd say it was a really smart move on CAPCOM's part.

No offense Inti.

(I always saw MML1 being like a 'test-run' for MML2.  Kind of "Make the engine, and get used to this, because we're going to do MUCH better on the next one" type of thing)

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Offline Copy X

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Reply #430 on: October 09, 2010, 03:57:18 PM
Been on a sabattical with no internet for so long and the first thing I do is check out this!? Great news indeed.. but now I have to buy a 3DS.. *sigh*
Why not PS3 Capcom? I'm saddened.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #431 on: October 09, 2010, 04:55:07 PM
EVERYBODY has to buy a 3DS, it's a NEW system.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #432 on: October 09, 2010, 05:11:12 PM
Indeed.  The system won't even be out for another 4 or 5 months and L3 most likely longer, so you've got plenty of time to save up, beg your parents for work, ask for cash on Christmas, whatever.

-In Mega Man 9's Defense=  I'm pretty sure they were trying to simulate the whole "Difficulty with old games" feeling, as well as give a new challenge to people who beat Mega Man 1 through 8.
10 did it better.  Hell, I'd even say the "MegaMan a" minigame did it better.  I know MM1-3 like the back of my hand, and played 4-6 on MMAC knowing near nothing about them. While you would die many times learning a Classic-series game, you generally had decent reaction time, or at the very least something looking out of place near a death-trap.  In 9, nothing looks remotely unusual, and all of a sudden an off-screen helicopter claw rams you into a spike wall.  That's not Classic MegaMan, that's I Wanna Be The Guy.

For other parts, it's the ever important need for a series to have its own identity, not becoming a mere copy of its predecessor and thus threading new ground.
That's why I didn't bring up the 3-element system or the weapon upgrades, those are more personal preference than they are quality.  But really, if you're going to star Zero in his own series, his signature moves should make SOME appearance besides the evil-twin boss.  It didn't even have to be every game, but somewhere in there, it should have been in the player's hands.  At least ZX pulled it off (even if Rekkoha was a bit impractical).

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In general, I'd say these issues aren't just Inti's, they are shared by even Capcom's NES and SNES greats, and cannot at all compare the problems that plagued the aforementioned three X-series titles.
If I read that as "X5", I'll agree.  I hold X6 in higher standing than the Zero series, as "balance issues" in that game are more a matter of style than fairness (players generally give up at problem-solving too easily and are unwilling to assume responsibility for exploration in a game which allows you to skip all 8 Mavericks without the loss of a player, not to mention they can't seem to find "Use Current Data" in the menu screen), and it actually did fix a lot of what was wrong with X5's items, ranking, and boss pacing/AI.

X7 I simply see as failure to commit to a new play style (we know from Legends that 3D MegaMan works, but the 3D/2D merger that X7 attempted is a train wreck) aggravated by lousy voices/script-writing.  The 2D design outside of Stonekong was half-assed and wound up detracting from the experience rather than adding to it, and numerous mechanics (auto-lock, Zero's attack reach) do not translate well from one style into the other.  With the possible exception of voices, I don't see those as the kind of mistakes one would make twice, much less in a 6-7 game stretch.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #433 on: October 09, 2010, 05:27:16 PM
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In 9, nothing looks remotely unusual, and all of a sudden an off-screen helicopter claw rams you into a spike wall.

To be fair, in Galaxy's stage the trap is shown to you beforehand without any consequence. They did warn you to thread carefully.

In Endless it's just plain mean.

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But really, if you're going to star Zero in his own series, his signature moves should make SOME appearance besides the evil-twin boss.  It didn't even have to be every game, but somewhere in there, it should have been in the player's hands.  At least ZX pulled it off (even if Rekkoha was a bit impractical).

Fanservice isn't quality.

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If I read that as "X5", I'll agree.  I hold X6 in higher standing than the Zero series, as "balance issues" in that game are more a matter of style than fairness (players generally give up at problem-solving too easily and are unwilling to assume responsibility for exploration in a game which allows you to skip all 8 Mavericks without the loss of a player, not to mention they can't seem to find "Use Current Data" in the menu screen), and it actually did fix a lot of what was wrong with X5's items, ranking, and boss pacing/AI.


X7 I simply see as failure to commit to a new play style (we know from Legends that 3D MegaMan works, but the 3D/2D merger that X7 attempted is a train wreck) aggravated by lousy voices/script-writing.  The 2D design outside of Stonekong was half-assed and wound up detracting from the experience rather than adding to it, and numerous mechanics (auto-lock, Zero's attack reach) do not translate well from one style into the other.  With the possible exception of voices, I don't see those as the kind of mistakes one would make twice, much less in a 6-7 game stretch.

I was moreso referring to well-established core mechanics being broken. X5 and X6 are extraordinarily slow in its airdashing, whereas X7 completely trashed the triangular kick. Things that certainly break those titles further are X5's complete and utterly stopping of gameplay at every screen, X6's suicidally backwards controller inputs, and the paradox of X7's premise.



Offline NEO Ness

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Reply #434 on: October 09, 2010, 05:38:20 PM
Ah, Hypershell, I see what you meant earlier by "Anthro Units"

Since I heard it used on Legends as like a 'basic' type of thing, (Kinda referring to Juno and Trigger at the same time, almost), being both Bureaucratic Unit and Purifier Unit I've generally used Anthro Unit as a "Reploid" term.

Here's an example=  Mega Man X is a Reploid, but he's also a Maverick Hunter.

Here's how I used it=  Mega Man Trigger is an Anthro Unit, but he's also a Purifier Unit.

But, during gameplay, they scarcely give any information regarding what an Anthro Unit really is,  and since I've used it like that for a long time, I guess I might have slipped.


 Doing a bit of research on Inti's past (as well as Game History), I've seriously underestimated how many games they've done that might have been cell-shaded. 

I still like my example, though, and because they haven't done any Cell-Shaded Rock Man Games, I guess it isn't to far off t say that the group in the Inti corp.  that does Rock Man related stuff is more 2D based than their other PS2 and Wii releases.



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Reply #435 on: October 09, 2010, 05:41:06 PM
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We knew the next update on Mega Man Legends 3 would be coming at New York's Comic Con event this weekend. Now the game's official blog has provided an exact time.

Art director Yuji Ishihara updated the blog today with notice that the site's Comic Con update will come on Sunday at 26:30. That's early Monday morning at 2:30, or if you're on New York time, just past noon on Sunday.

The site's update will presumably include all the content that's announced at Comic Con. It's not entirely clear what that content will be, though, as Ishihara also wrote in the post that he expects the game's visuals to not be shown for a bit longer.

Teased Ishihara, "We're maintaining the important points like the bright and light atmosphere of the series, aiming for quality that matches the current era, and fighting with the new 3DS hardware and the schedule. We probably won't be able to show the visuals for a bit, but we're working to meet expectations!"
Source

Saying "we probably won't be able to show the visuals for a bit" has me a little worried. Does that mean no trailer or screens? Seems so. :\

Well, all we can do is wait. Having information is better than none.



Offline NEO Ness

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Reply #436 on: October 09, 2010, 05:52:09 PM
a.........animated teaser trailer?....maybe? 


It doesn't take that much money to make a two minute (maybe longer) clip of mega man running and shooting with familiar faces and voices or music going on.

*Fingers Crossed*

Wait, did that say Sunday night?  or, Sunday Afternoon?



Offline Night

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Reply #437 on: October 09, 2010, 08:00:26 PM
Maybe concept art? I'd like to see concept art!  owo



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Reply #438 on: October 09, 2010, 11:27:06 PM
New MM Legends, a lot of concept art... MM Legends Official Complete Works, anyone?



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Reply #439 on: October 10, 2010, 01:40:23 AM
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the paradox of X7's premise.
Paradox? You mean the X thing?

Also, X7's stage design, for a game that mixes 2D and 3D, was horribly linear.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #440 on: October 10, 2010, 02:00:39 AM
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Paradox? You mean the X thing?

I meant the 2D and 3D merger.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #441 on: October 10, 2010, 03:56:12 AM
To be fair, in Galaxy's stage the trap is shown to you beforehand without any consequence. They did warn you to thread carefully.
There's a difference between being careful and having to tip-toe pixel by pixel.  When a claw drops, there's not enough time to react if you're already running.  Whether you know they're in the stage or not, you can't dodge them without prior knowledge of their actual location.

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Fanservice isn't quality.
I think that's debatable when said fanservice is very gameplay-relevant.

To me, Zero without a Messenko-esque attack is like X without armor.  Sure, it works, but if you can't be assed to even provide an option which is considered standard for the character, that doesn't say much for the effort.  By no means does it have to be implemented in the same manner as previous titles either (again, see ZX; or for X's armor, Command Mission).

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I was moreso referring to well-established core mechanics being broken. X5 and X6 are extraordinarily slow in its airdashing, whereas X7 completely trashed the triangular kick. Things that certainly break those titles further are X5's complete and utterly stopping of gameplay at every screen, X6's suicidally backwards controller inputs, and the paradox of X7's premise.
Air-dashing is an exceedingly weak argument to bring against X5/X6.  First of all it's just as applicable to X4 as to the others (in fact X5 is the strongest of the PS1 trio in terms of aerial maneuverability).  Secondly there are several titles which butchered it even worse.  Zero's "scoot" in X8 is atrocious, even more so in the air.  It makes the PS1 games look like Model HX by comparison.  And of course, there *IS* no air-dash in the entire Zero series, so I'd say that counts more against Inti than for them.

X7's triangular kick may feel awkward but it is functional.  Apparently less so if one attempts to dash-kick, but that's something I never considered to be a deal-breaker (you learn to use regular wall-climbing in X5/X6 if you have any desire to equip the Hyper Dash).

Nobody can really defend Sentsuizan, but it's not exactly a core mechanic.  It's technically optional (although my completionist nature gets the better of me every time), and unlike other craptacular "upgrades" the series has seen (X3's buster, anyone?), is something you can train yourself to avoid even if you do obtain it.

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Offline NEO Ness

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Reply #442 on: October 10, 2010, 06:16:24 AM
I'm not anyone.  I thought the whole "Two merge into One" was pretty kick-a.

And (Though I could care less about the Zero Series 'in detail') I did like the messenko reference.  (Were you talking about the move that Zero does when he punches the ground?)



Offline Zan

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Reply #443 on: October 10, 2010, 11:36:41 AM
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Air-dashing is an exceedingly weak argument to bring against X5/X6.  First of all it's just as applicable to X4 as to the others (in fact X5 is the strongest of the PS1 trio in terms of aerial maneuverability).

Point of the matter is that X5 and X6 feel very slow where they shouldn't. Maybe it's a trend that started in X4, but there's definitely a certain something that made it worse in X5 and X6. X5 of course being beyond salvation until someone shuts off Alia. Inti by comparison always had an extremely solid and fast core gameplay engine.

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X7's triangular kick may feel awkward but it is functional.  Apparently less so if one attempts to dash-kick, but that's something I never considered to be a deal-breaker

The game's intro stage is the perfect example of what is wrong with the (dashing) triangular kick. For a stage design that should be extraordinarily easy in any other 2D title, it just doesn't work well there.

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Nobody can really defend Sentsuizan, but it's not exactly a core mechanic.

Not just Sentsuizan, though. The crouching has ironically seen finer days in X5. Though arguably that's solely Metalshark Prayer's fault.



Offline Acid

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Reply #444 on: October 10, 2010, 07:09:49 PM
I followed Protodude's live updates.

MML3 will be big on fan-input.

I like that

VOTE THE NEW HEROINE:

Go here



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Offline Acid

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Reply #446 on: October 10, 2010, 07:12:35 PM
They said that they're not gonna show anything because the game is in VERY early development.

To take it from Protodude:

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    * Audience is assembling; show will begin in twenty something minutes.

    * To reiterate, updates from the show will appear on both Unity and the Legends 3/DASH 3 dev room shortly after the event.

    * The show has begun...

    * Nothing of note to report yet! Trailers for other games being shown.

    * Inafune is here among the panel's guests, if you're curious.

    *  Inafune takes the stage.

    * Talking about Mega Man Universe...

    * Reiterating everything we've known for a while; game based on MM2, you can make your own stages, etc.

    * "Now you get to feel how hard it is to have my job!" -Inafune

    * Discussing non-Capcom characters in MMU.

    * "Do you like Mega Man Legends?"

    * No MML3 trailer today.

    * L3's subtitle, "Project", refers to Capcom's desire to make the game with you, the fans.

    * "We need the help of everyone to make the Rocket to go save Mega Man!"

    * "You're going to help me make this game a success..."

    * Capcom Unity community will be involved.

    * "Boss characters wanted, voice actors wanted, ideas wanted..."

    * "Mega Man Legends 3: By the fan, for the fans."

    * Mega Man Legends 3 Developer Room liaison wanted. Interested? Shoot an e-mail to: Resume@capcom.com

    * Showing a trailer... BUT does not show any gameplay. Trailer features the development team tinkering away on the game. MML3 development started not too long ago, apparently.

    * Because the game is so early in development, it won't be ready to be shown in video form for a little while.

    * Inafune announces "Heroine Design Competition."

    * They are showing us heroine character designs from MM designers from the past. We will choose and vote which design will win.

    * Nine girls total. You can vote on them at Capcom Unity shortly.

    * HEROINE CONTEST DETAILS: http://www.capcom-unity.com/mikeeb13/blog/2010/10/10/introducing_the_mega_man_legends_3_heroine_contest!

    * LIAISON DETAILS: http://www.capcom-unity.com/mikeeb13/blog/2010/10/10/work_at_capcom!__announcing_the_mega_man_legends_3_developer_room_community_liaison

    * Shows over.


Posted on: 10-10-2010, 18:12:03
So.... is that it for the Legends info?

Not working for me.

The ! is part of the URL. Add that at the end



Offline Rin

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Reply #447 on: October 10, 2010, 07:17:25 PM
What the [tornado fang]... THEY WANT FAN INPUT?!
FAN [tornado fang]ing INPUT?!
Als,dsadlsadlsadmsadmsa

Yes... yes... I cann see it working. Just like it worked for Sonic series... owait.



Offline Acid

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Reply #448 on: October 10, 2010, 07:18:22 PM
What the [tornado fang]... THEY WANT FAN INPUT?!
FAN [tornado fang]ing INPUT?!
Als,dsadlsadlsadmsadmsa

Yes... yes... I cann see it working. Just like it worked for Sonic series... owait.

It worked for the Classic Series



Offline Blackhook

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Reply #449 on: October 10, 2010, 07:23:25 PM
Those designs look nice...I like the Met Helmet girl