Topic: Sonic and Knuckles 3D - Mushroom Hill Zone

[Protoman Blues]

You know what Ben, it's not Sega that doesn't care, it's you who doesn't care. If you can't realize that them listening to fans' complaints and fixing the mistakes they made is a small sign of caring, especially considering 06 and other games were rushed out with myriad problems, you're just bitter and butthurt that it's not the game you want.

Actually, what both he and you described does not seem like caring at all, to me. To me, there's a huge difference between caring and "saving face" which is more of what Ben described.  Again, I haven't been following up on this as much as the most determined gamer or hardcore Sonic fan, but he does bring up a good point. If the leak had never happened, would SEGA have listened to fans or fix the mistakes made in the first place?

If you want a "real" Sonic 4, go play Sonic and Knuckles. Cause a "real" Sonic 4 can never be made ever again. The Sega of today is not the Sega of yesteryear. Without the original team, you can't capture the same charm.

Then they shouldn't market it as such, which unless I miss my guess, has always been Ben's main complaint about Sonic 4. If it was marketed as Sonic Rush 3, then I don't think there'd be an issue.

[Bueno Excelente]

I think Ben's problem lies more with the physics of Sonic 4, rather than the artwork. From what I've seen regarding the reactions towards this video, people are upset not because the artwork is so beautiful compared to Sonic 4, but more because the guy who made this pretty much captured the correct physics pretty well.

That's just my guess anyway.

It's easy to work physics when someone's just trying to make a full motion video. =P I think Dimps feels that the new kind of physics works better in accordance to the gameplay/level design.

Well, let's see...

Sonic 4 is a game that should have, by all means, been an easy knock out of the park. You mention "Sonic 4" and you immediately draw comparisons to the original 16-bit anthology, and the good memories inspired by that much. For all that set-up, all Sega had to do was knock the pins down. The build up to the reveal of Sonic 4 footage (including appearances by PR manager, Mr. "Sonic-Cycle-is-dead" Ruby Eclipse) should have been able to do what the CG "proof of concept" posted above did, only more so, because of all the "hype" they were trying to generate.

Gee, what a surprise when they didn't do as such.

Then came the "leaking". I liked how some people, throughout the whole ordeal, actually wanted to say things to the effect of "Oh, poor Sega~!" and the like. Whatever, if the game was truly well made, a leak would have only served to be little more than FREE advertising for the game amongst the hardcore base that followed such exploits. Instead, it did anything but that.

So now, the name of the game is trying to go with this faux-apologetic "We're gonna get it right this time, we PROMISE~!" thing. I guess that's the new tag-line of choice, seeing how "We're taking him back to his ROOTS~!" has exhausted itself of all meaning. But you can bet that if the leak didn't happen, we would have gotten Sonic 4 as is (or was). The only thing that separates the more recent Sonic 4 episode of earlier this year from the 2006 disaster, is that, of course, Sega ALREADY made their money off of the latter. Here they were caught with their pants down before release, and they were left with either the choice to shape it up a bit to try and fix some of the glaring faults people saw through the leak, or just "quietly cancel" the title. Obviously, Iizuka and co. were still interested in the idea of trying to make money, so there you go.

But in the end, again, there's little to showcase that they actually "care". If they actually cared, things would have been different starting from the moment that "Sonic 4: Episode 1" was revealed. They had their "big chance" to show that they were turning over a new leaf, and they're likely never going to get such a thing again.

EXACTLY. I mean, the concept vid definitely is beautiful, but it's the way that the vid does more to showcase the kind of things that we should want to see from a game that calls itself "Sonic 4". The momentum is there. The level design is there. The reliance on an unnecessary game play element for this type of game (re: Homing Attack) is NOT there.

I hope Sega keeps on getting hammered with emails relating to this vid. If that's what it takes for them to finally take a hint...!

You're seriously comparing Sonic 4 to Sonic 06? SERIOUSLY? A game which actually does look pretty damn good in the leaks, except that it was being played by someone who couldn't mess with a controller to save their lives, is being compared to the buggiest, most broken, so called "game" this generation? I love the fact that people [sonic slicer], not because it's a good or bad game, but it's because IT'S NOT JUST LIKE IT USED TO BE. They should suck it up and accept the new, more speedy gameplay, the homing attack, and yes, the GREEN EYES. Because the way fans have bitched, I've seen more complaints about green eye bullshit than actual level design. I actually haven't seen ONE single mention of level design or how the actual gameplay works with the rest. It's "CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES, CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES" as far as the eye can see. The way the game was leaked, which was some guy showing off the entire play of the game, while running into walls and having the reaction time of a turtle.

And yet you're acting as if they're shitting all over our faces with this, and showing us the biggest disrespect possible. While fans have been the ones to dish out most of the [parasitic bomb] around here. If there was a supportive fanbase, I'd blame Sega for just not getting the picture. But when your fanbase is a bunch of whiny, self-centered furry fapfic assholes saying THEY know better than people who've been working at the business for years, I'd get a little desperate with trying to please my fans too.

[Gaia]

Bravo Superbat, bravo~

Now, if only people would stop comparing fangames to Sega's recent works. To quote a Meerkat:

Kid, it's about time you put the past, behind you.

It's a moral I've lived with a looong time when I first heard it.

[Flame]

Bravo Superbat, bravo~

Same to Sato. Seriously.

Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?

[Protoman Blues]

It's easy to work physics when someone's just trying to make a full motion video. =P I think Dimps feels that the new kind of physics works better in accordance to the gameplay/level design.

Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots? 

[Align]

if the game was truly well made, a leak would have only served to be little more than FREE advertising for the game amongst the hardcore base that followed such exploits. Instead, it did anything but that.

All the rest notwithstanding, this just isn't true. Remember when HL2 was leaked and a lot of people were none to happy with what they saw? Remember when it came out and got several straight 10s in everything (undeservedly, but still)?

[Flame]

Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots? 

Well, its that in a way, it still is a return. Its going back to the very basic formula of the genesis games. No werehog, no boost system, no "useless" spindash... like the past few 3D games had it- just badniks, Egg head, and checkered loop-de-loops. (and a spindash that works proper)

[Protoman Blues]

Well, its that in a way, it still is a return. Its going back to the very basic formula of the genesis games. No werehog, no boost system, no "useless" spindash... like the past few 3D games had it- just badniks, Egg head, and checkered loop-de-loops. (and a spindash that works proper)

Didn't Rush do that though? Or is/was the boost system what separates it from Sonic 4?

[Phi]

Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?

It had an interesting concept, yes. But either the person in the video just sucked that much at correctly moving the cart or the level needed a bunch of tweaking/better physics. If it's the latter, then i think the level would have been really enjoyable if they fixed it and decided to stick with it.

Also, i haven't been that up to date with the recent Sonic 4 vids, so i don't know how much they have actually improved on the physics.

[Bueno Excelente]

Same to Sato. Seriously.

Also, am I the only person alive who thought the minecart level actually looked interesting?

I liked it too. The way the guy played it just seemed like someone who used motion controls the way he played the rest of the game. Badly.

Fair enough. However, if that's the case, then shouldn't they not try to market this game as a return to Sonic's roots?  

And isn't it? It's a 2D game with classic level design and theme. Physics alone doesn't change that fact. New Super Mario Bros was marketed as the same thing, and it had different physics and a walljump. Same deal.

Didn't Rush do that though? Or is/was the boost system what separates it from Sonic 4?

Rush worked ENTIRELY on a boost system basis. You did tricks and boosted, did tricks and boosted, all through the levels. It was a completely different kind of gameplay, more style-based than traditional.

[Protoman Blues]

And isn't it? It's a 2D game with classic level design and theme. Physics alone doesn't change that fact. New Super Mario Bros was marketed as the same thing, and it had different physics and a walljump. Same deal.

Fair point, but the difference I think is somewhat in the name, so to speak. With Mario games, the physics have seemingly always changed, to a point, from Super Mario Bros. forward.  With classic Genesis Sonic games, from what I can remember, different abilities were added, like the Spin-Dash & such, but the overall physics & momentum seemingly stayed the same. (I'm no expert, so this is all open for debate)

After Sonic & Knuckles, that type of gameplay took a different turn with Dimps and Sonic Rush, like you mentioned.  So if they are trying to market a game with their newer style of physics, then why not just call it Sonic Rush 3?

[Gaia]

Sonic Rush 3?

It's not on a DS and it doesn't have silly music.

[Bueno Excelente]

Fair point, but the difference I think is somewhat in the name, so to speak. With Mario games, the physics have seemingly always changed, to a point, from Super Mario Bros. forward.  With classic Genesis Sonic games, from what I can remember, different abilities were added, like the Spin-Dash & such, but the overall physics & momentum seemingly stayed the same. (I'm no expert, so this is all open for debate)

After Sonic & Knuckles, that type of gameplay took a different turn with Dimps and Sonic Rush, like you mentioned.  So if they are trying to market a game with their newer style of physics, then why not just call it Sonic Rush 3?

I think the physics eventually changed quite a bit. But this isn't about the physics, really. It's more about the elements of the game itself, and how the game's trying to go back to its roots in those terms.

And again, Rush 3 would have to be a boost-based game. This one has changed physics, but not THAT changed from the originals that reaches Rush levels. Let it be Sonic 4. As long as it's good, haters should go screw themselves.

[Protoman Blues]

I think the physics eventually changed quite a bit. But this isn't about the physics, really. It's more about the elements of the game itself, and how the game's trying to go back to its roots in those terms.

And again, Rush 3 would have to be a boost-based game. This one has changed physics, but not THAT changed from the originals that reaches Rush levels. Let it be Sonic 4. As long as it's good, haters should go screw themselves.

Really? I thought that one review that KG showed me of the guy playing it said the game was pretty much Rush. I could be wrong though.

So, just so I'm clear on this regarding what you & Flame have said, the only thing that separates Sonic 4 from being a "Rush" type game is the boosting?

[Satoryu]

Pretty much yeah. The physics in 4 do seem very similar to those in Rush. The gravity in Sonic's jumps and those dreaded curves that everyone but me has had a problem with are the biggest clues. Otherwise, 4 has no boosting and no tricks and no other playable characters.

[Phi]

So, just so I'm clear on this regarding what you & Flame have said, the only thing that separates Sonic 4 from being a "Rush" type game is the boosting?

In my opinion, i definitely believe so.

When you think about it, Sonic Colors for the DS is more or less like "Sonic Rush 3". Not just because it uses the same graphics engine, but because it uses the same qualities like, again, boosting and even the level design (dunno if DS Colors incorporates tricks). Even with the added abilities involving the wisps, the quality is still there. And i'm pretty certain that every Rush title would have to have Blaze playable, though i could be wrong about that. I mean, wasn't that one of the reasons why the Rush series was created for in the first place?

[Gaia]

I mean, wasn't that one of the reasons why the Rush series was created for in the first place?

Idunno, I never really played the games for Plot. BTW, I think this topic needs a name change.

[Klavier Gavin]

I think this topic needs a name change.

[Acid]

Here you go.

[Klavier Gavin]

Here you go.

<3

[Fxeni]

[Flame]

I lol'd.

[Protoman Blues]

Pretty much yeah. The physics in 4 do seem very similar to those in Rush. The gravity in Sonic's jumps and those dreaded curves that everyone but me has had a problem with are the biggest clues. Otherwise, 4 has no boosting and no tricks and no other playable characters.

Well alrighty then. So, lemme see if I've got all the information down pat here...

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is marketed as a return to "old school Sonic roots" not because of its classic Sonic physics and momentum based gameplay, but rather because of its classic Sonic level design and 2D gameplay, which Rush essentially did except for the boosting, gravity, and dreaded curves. Sonic 4 also doesn't have any other playable characters like classic Sonic, even though Sonic did indeed have other playable characters by the 3rd game. So this game is essentially marketed as a return to classic Sonic roots even though quite a lot of aspects of Sonic's gameplay & other established 2D playable characters have been lost, forgotten, or ignored to focus on making a new, classic game which returns to Sonic's classic roots, even though it seems to look, play and handle like a "Rush" type game, sans the boosting & Blaze the Fire Kitty.

Did I miss anything?

[Bueno Excelente]

Well alrighty then. So, lemme see if I've got all the information down pat here...

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 is marketed as a return to "old school Sonic roots" not because of its classic Sonic physics and momentum based gameplay, but rather because of its classic Sonic level design and 2D gameplay, which Rush essentially did except for the boosting, gravity, and dreaded curves. Sonic 4 also doesn't have any other playable characters like classic Sonic, even though Sonic did indeed have other playable characters by the 3rd game. So this game is essentially marketed as a return to classic Sonic roots even though quite a lot of aspects of Sonic's gameplay & other established 2D playable characters have been lost, forgotten, or ignored to focus on making a new, classic game which returns to Sonic's classic roots, even though it seems to look, play and handle like a "Rush" type game, sans the boosting & Blaze the Fire Kitty.

Did I miss anything?

Sonic Rush, having levels that matched the design of the original in any way? The curves, gravity, boosting, verticality, size and overall COMPLETELY different design didn't make you realise it's pretty much a totally different game on all counts? Plus, even without using the boost mechanic, the levels there are pretty much based on speed with little platforming. if anything, I'd consider this Sonic closer to Sonic Advance. And how does it LOOK like a Rush game? Or play? Except for different physics, it's pretty much all classic. And it's only Episode 1. I'm guessing other characters will be available in the next episode. Or if they're not, I don't really see anything wrong with it. Didn't Megaman 9 get rid of the dash that had been in the game for years, and the charge beam just so it could be more like 2?

[HokutoNoBen]

Then they shouldn't market it as such, which unless I miss my guess, has always been Ben's main complaint about Sonic 4. If it was marketed as Sonic Rush 3, then I don't think there'd be an issue.

Again, EXACTLY.

You're seriously comparing Sonic 4 to Sonic 06? SERIOUSLY?

In a word? Yes. You didn't read what I said, though.

In my example, I pointed out how one case (Sonic 06) was a thing where a project made it to the market place, and its issues that made it to the final version where what incited bawling. Sega couldn't care less though, because they already MADE their money. Sonic 4 was a thing where the project was shown for what it was, and well, the joke was on Sega this time. They didn't even get a chance to make any money for "all their trouble". Oh! NOW they care!

Again, if the leak had not happened, Sega would've been fine releasing the product as was, funky physics and design decisions not-withstanding.

I actually haven't seen ONE single mention of level design or how the actual gameplay works with the rest. It's "CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES, CART LEVEL AND GREEN EYES" as far as the eye can see.

And where are you checking, pray-tell? A lot of the rhetoric that you have seen me spout? Echoed at the likes of NeoGAF, Sonic-Retro and etc. There are people who actually care about level design and game play, believe it or not, and not the borderline "Sonic Passion"-inspired kids/furs who dominate Sega USA's forums, believe it or not. If all you're citing is the likes of Sega USA's forums or whatever, then you're bound to not see what I see.

All the rest notwithstanding, this just isn't true. Remember when HL2 was leaked and a lot of people were none to happy with what they saw? Remember when it came out and got several straight 10s in everything (undeservedly, but still)?

Different cases, here. In HL2's case, hackers stole what was effectively incomplete source code and maps from Valve, compiled it all together and made it all into a make shift "beta". The game was clearly not ready for consumption yet by any means, and people were getting notions from what was a "game" basically thrown together by hackers. To put it in perspective, this is comparable to when some Neo Geo rom-hackers/pirates took a beta version of Garou (Fatal Fury): Mark of the Wolves, and did whatever bit of rom-tweaking necessary to put a "working" rom online for people to play, back in 1999/2000.

In Sonic 4's case, code was released to those who had access to devkit/presskit software on the 360, which was available to those who had specific connections (reporters, reviewers, etc.). Since Sonic 4 had already been submitted for ESRB certification by that point, and data already existed for PSN and Live certification, as well, again, it's highly likely that the game was well on its way to meeting that original Spring/Summer release date that Sega had in mind. Then, for whatever reason, some schmuck was willing to jeopardize his livelihood to showcase what was basically a completed version (or close enough to it, if they were willing to show it off to the press) of Sega's new game.

Again, clearly different cases in mind here. Comparably speaking, Sonic 4's episode earlier this year has more in common with how Halo Reach got leaked on the internet earlier this week, 3 weeks before its intended release.

http://tantraman.net/smilies_files/BeatDeadHorse2.gif

If it's what it takes for Sega to take a hint, by all means, rake up the "deadweight" combo some more. Sega's definitely aware of the video now, it'll be on them to see what they do with the knowledge presented to them.

After all, it only took several years, and a number of 8-bit MM rom-hacks/fan works being made, before Capcom finally wised up to the idea of "HEY! Maybe we should listen to what is going on out there!". Perhaps Sega's "Eureka" moment is still out there, waiting to be grasped.