The Double Edged Nintendo Fallacy

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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Offline Jazz Shaking

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Reply #51 on: May 08, 2010, 11:38:07 PM
Whoa calm down dude. You sound so angry over a videogame company. Anyway while I can understand the complaints, this generation isn't over yet. Let's just wait and see what's been done before we make any remarks. I mean they are trying more this year to appeal to "core" gamers as it were. And we are getting new franchises more geared towards "core" gamers. Xenoblade and The Last Story being prime examples. Sure you can argue Xenoblade is 2nd Party with Monolith Soft and The Last Story's being just a collaboration with Mistwalker, but it does show they're trying.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #52 on: May 08, 2010, 11:39:31 PM
I wasn't done because I was lost. I was done because I didn't see the point in arguing with you over something, and I stopped before I said something I'd really regret. Stop gloating like you won; you didn't.

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #53 on: May 08, 2010, 11:42:44 PM
Whoa calm down dude. You sound so angry over a videogame company. Anyway while I can understand the complaints, this generation isn't over yet. Let's just wait and see what's been done before we make any remarks. I mean they are trying more this year to appeal to "core" gamers as it were. And we are getting new franchises more geared towards "core" gamers. Xenoblade and The Last Story being prime examples. Sure you can argue Xenoblade is 2nd Party Monolith Soft and The Last Story's just a collaboration with Mistwalker, but it does show they're trying.
I'm not angry. Just laughing at the replies made towards me. And I know, I know there are alot of core games coming. But they're not coming at a steady rate. So while for example, now I'm playing a bit of Muramasa for fun, most of the time, the console gathers dust in the corner while I play some other games. Not enough truly awesome titles coming out for it. And they could try harder.

I wasn't done because I was lost. I was done because I didn't see the point in arguing with you over something, and I stopped before I said something I'd really regret. Stop gloating like you won; you didn't.
Silly kiddy. Internet debates aren't won.  8D They're just a source of one person's fun, and another's rage.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #54 on: May 08, 2010, 11:43:53 PM
Yeah, and you've triggered mine. I'm literally shaking right now. Stop arguing like you know everything about everything; you don't.

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Klavier Gavin

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Reply #55 on: May 08, 2010, 11:46:06 PM
Man is a cancer. And I've chosen to cut out the disease.


...Oh wait. I'm not a mod. Nevermind. :v



Offline Jazz Shaking

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Reply #56 on: May 08, 2010, 11:46:56 PM
 -AC

People let's all be civil about this. Let's not make it personal as it seems to be appearing.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #57 on: May 08, 2010, 11:47:53 PM
Yeah, and you've triggered mine. I'm literally shaking right now. Stop arguing like you know everything about everything; you don't.
I like my whiny net kids shaken. Not stirred.



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Offline Jericho

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Reply #58 on: May 08, 2010, 11:48:04 PM
Goddamn you speed posters...

Man is a cancer. And I've chosen to cut out the disease.


...Oh wait. I'm not a mod. Nevermind. :v

I am though! 8D

Thread could have been interesting, but getting invested in arguments online to that degree means I have to close this.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #59 on: May 09, 2010, 09:25:22 AM
Okay, being that I was actually enjoying my debate (Yes, not argument, DEBATE) with the Fastest Man Alive here, I'm actually unlocking this topic, as I found most of the posts in here interesting and such.  So, sorry Jericho, but I'm willing to keep going with this, as soon as I take care of one small issue...

Imma finding Kyouya so I can slap him for inviting you.. :P

At this point, you're arguing from a corner, and just repeating yourself. Which means all we can do is repeat ourselves. Just stop; you've lost, be gracious and accept it.

First of all, he was not repeating himself, but actually countering points and issues I brought up.  Second of all, this isn't about either of us trying to win anything because it's a [tornado fang]ing internet debate about video games.  Third, and finally, interrupt my or anyone else's debate again in the future with petty, nonsensical, and almost brown nosing BS again and punishment will be dealt. 

I trust I've made myself clear on the issue.

Now, back to the debate...

The Wii Sports games really offer a new experience, but they both seem more like tech demos to show what the console can do than something you can lose hours in. And as for Mario, platforming isn't really the kind of game type to necessitate co-op, thus the constant mess the game offers of everyone throwing each other down cliffs and into lava. Co-op games should require other players to proceed in the action rather than them be a hinderance. Little Big Planet did this well. New Super Mario Bros Wii just rehashes most things the old Mario titles offered, without bringing anything new to the table. I don't feel like I'm playing anything I haven't played time and time again. The old games felt unique and like something wonderful. New Mario Bros Wii just feels samey.

I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder, per se.  I actually wasted plenty of hours with both Wii Sports & Wii Sports Resort.  Like I said earlier, I find Archery very relaxing in Resort. As for NSMBWii, the hindrance aspect of the game was what I found the most fun aspect of it. From what I can see, the game is pretty simple when you play 1 player. I wouldn't know since I never played the game one player. However, when you have 3-4 people playing at the same time, that's where the "new experience" and uniqueness come into play, at least for me. It's-a the chaotic aspect of having your friends hinder you that makes the game such a blast, in my opinion, to the point that you wanna jump on their head and force them down a pit or into lava. I'm not saying that the mechanics and such are anything we haven't seen before, but it's the co-op chaos which makes the game a truly unique experience for me, especially as a long time Mario fan. Honestly, the only thing I wish the game had was online play, so that I could've played the game with people here, or some of my other online friends.

Quote
Why the HELL do I want more sequels? I have Power Stone 1 and 2 for both the Dreamcast AND the PSP. I want to see Capcom try new things! Dead Rising, Dark Void, THOSE games took chances. One was awesome, the other was mediocre. But they TRIED SOMETHING NEW. And I applaud them for that. Platinum Games tries new things, and every single thing they put out is awesome incarnate. They tried new things back when they were Clover and Capcom put them out of the team. But Nintendo is swimming in rivers of money, and they don't take ONE. SINGLE. RISK. A tiny little innovation, ANYTHING. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I like sequels alot when they try something new, but Nintendo is just throwing revivals and rehashes at us. I don't like it.

Sequels that try something new are definitely great, but sometimes not breaking the formula can work well too, especially in a business sense.  I mean, the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games try something somewhat new, it worked, and now they simply rehash the games over and over again because people keep buying them.  You can't really fault the companies for cashing in on their successes, just like Nintendo is doing right now.  The Wii itself was a innovation, a risk, and a gamble, and it paid off for them. Wii Sports, Wii Fit were also gambles for them as well, and again they paid off.  You're right in that Nintendo is most likely swimming in money right now, and they probably want to continue their dip in the money bin, so they are going to milk this for a while.  Dead Rising might be the next series to be milked as well.

In another sense, sequels that improve upon a somewhat proven formula are also great as well.  ZOE2 is probably my best example of that.  I really liked ZOE1, but it had its flaws, whereas ZOE2 essentially fixed every problem I had with the 1st game and improved upon it.  Power Stone 2 is probably another example of improving upon a certain formula, which is why I would love a Power Stone 3 to improve upon the Power Stone formula I already love and fix some of the flaws that the game had, as well as give Wang Tang back his Super Spirit Bomb.

Getting back to the point though, if Nintendo is not trying anything new, then what would you define Metroid: Other M as?  I haven't played the game yet, but from the vids I've seen, Ninty & Team Ninja are taking the series in a new direction in terms of what seems like more background story/info into Samus herself, with much more voice acting and possible plot development, etc.  Also, the gameplay quickly switching from 2D/2.5D to 3D FPS like that seems pretty new to me, in the sense that I can't recall another game doing it ever.  I'm no gaming expert, but I could be wrong.  To me though, this seems like a risk because they could probably make more money just putting together a new NSMBWii or another proven $20 Million seller. 

Also, for that matter, what about the Wii Vitality Sensor?  Sure, it can be a gimmick for who knows what, seeing as how at E3 Nintendo gave us nothing to work with regarding it (terrible marketing IMO).  But who knows what they have planned for it.



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #60 on: May 09, 2010, 09:57:39 AM
Well, this has been mentioned, but it probably would be good to reiterate. Ninty's R&D section probably takes up a decent section of their budget, and it's pretty much guaranteed that they're working on their next console. Sony and Microsoft have other sources of income to fund their R&D; Nintendo does not. Ninty could use a bit more experimentation in their craft, admittedly, but to say that they're not putting any experimentation at all is going a bit far. As PB was saying, basically every company does this. Sure, the other companies tend to be a little more adventurous with what they release, however these same companies don't have to worry about competing in the console wars. Ninty has to worry about their tech staying relevant enough compared to their competitors in the future.

PS: I apologize if this post isn't quite structured as well as it could be, but I am typing this at around ~4am my time. Work's a [sonic slicer].



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #61 on: May 09, 2010, 09:59:16 AM
PS: I apologize if this post isn't quite structured as well as it could be, but I am typing this at around ~4am my time. Work's a [sonic slicer].

No excuse, Fox!  It's 4AM my time, and look at my gem of a post!   :P



Offline Mirby

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Reply #62 on: May 09, 2010, 10:01:28 AM
Well, this has been mentioned, but it probably would be good to reiterate. Ninty's R&D section probably takes up a decent section of their budget, and it's pretty much guaranteed that they're working on their next console. Sony and Microsoft have other sources of income to fund their R&D; Nintendo does not. Ninty could use a bit more experimentation in their craft, admittedly, but to say that they're not putting any experimentation at all is going a bit far. As PB was saying, basically every company does this. Sure, the other companies tend to be a little more adventurous with what they release, however these same companies don't have to worry about competing in the console wars. Ninty has to worry about their tech staying relevant enough compared to their competitors in the future.

This is what I was trying to say all along. Apparently, tired Fox is more articulate that migraine Mirby. (Hey, alliteration!)

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Fxeni

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Reply #63 on: May 09, 2010, 10:04:27 AM
No excuse, Fox!  It's 4AM my time, and look at my gem of a post!   :P
I've been up forever now, cut me some slack 8D

Another thing came to mind... the Wii Vitality Sensor. Man, what a wacky experiment that is. I don't think there's any real target demographic for it, just some hypothetical group that might exist somewhere. Maybe. I'd love to see what people manage to do with it, but I'm willing to bet lots of companies won't even bother with it, much like what they do for other peripherals.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #64 on: May 09, 2010, 10:22:25 AM
Another thing came to mind... the Wii Vitality Sensor. Man, what a wacky experiment that is. I don't think there's any real target demographic for it, just some hypothetical group that might exist somewhere. Maybe. I'd love to see what people manage to do with it, but I'm willing to bet lots of companies won't even bother with it, much like what they do for other peripherals.

I still don't really know what purpose it even serves.  Like I said in that long E3 post, it was the 2nd worst thing shown at E3 in terms of just marketing alone.  The worst was obviously the PSP Go!



Offline Flame

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Reply #65 on: May 09, 2010, 10:24:29 AM
Wow... This topic... Just wow.
I cant keep up. 8D

I'll throw a few cents in though. I can kinda see where Flash is coming from, here. Sort of. The least Ninty could do is try to make something refreshing and new. When I think about it, they SHOULD try a new franchise. besides just stuff like the tried and true Pokemon, Zerlda, Mario and the few ones they keep and keep on making. We get a new one for each almost every year now. Its like Megaman back in the day. Perhaps they should try something new. Take a small risk. maybe start out small, a wiiware game. if its successful, make another. this time better. and build up to full fledged console DISC based games for that franchise. the Wiiware thing is actually a pretty convenient thing. It can be used as a testing ground for them to try new things with slightly less risk. No production costs for making billions of copies. they just distribute digitally, and only if popularity grows enough, they can take the bigger risk of making it a "real" game.

But I really only pay attention to a few different game series... Im not exactly so broad in tastes, and very lazy on trying new things. (the majority of my games are Megaman, and  Sonic. With a few sparse others.)

Also, if I dare to be so bold, reading through a few of the previous pages, I think this thread needs this.


Dont hurt me...

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #66 on: May 09, 2010, 01:09:21 PM
Okay, being that I was actually enjoying my debate (Yes, not argument, DEBATE) with the Fastest Man Alive here, I'm actually unlocking this topic, as I found most of the posts in here interesting and such.  So, sorry Jericho, but I'm willing to keep going with this, as soon as I take care of one small issue...

First of all, he was not repeating himself, but actually countering points and issues I brought up.  Second of all, this isn't about either of us trying to win anything because it's a [tornado fang]ing internet debate about video games.  Third, and finally, interrupt my or anyone else's debate again in the future with petty, nonsensical, and almost brown nosing BS again and punishment will be dealt. 

I trust I've made myself clear on the issue.

Now, back to the debate...

I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder, per se.  I actually wasted plenty of hours with both Wii Sports & Wii Sports Resort.  Like I said earlier, I find Archery very relaxing in Resort. As for NSMBWii, the hindrance aspect of the game was what I found the most fun aspect of it. From what I can see, the game is pretty simple when you play 1 player. I wouldn't know since I never played the game one player. However, when you have 3-4 people playing at the same time, that's where the "new experience" and uniqueness come into play, at least for me. It's-a the chaotic aspect of having your friends hinder you that makes the game such a blast, in my opinion, to the point that you wanna jump on their head and force them down a pit or into lava. I'm not saying that the mechanics and such are anything we haven't seen before, but it's the co-op chaos which makes the game a truly unique experience for me, especially as a long time Mario fan. Honestly, the only thing I wish the game had was online play, so that I could've played the game with people here, or some of my other online friends.

Sequels that try something new are definitely great, but sometimes not breaking the formula can work well too, especially in a business sense.  I mean, the Guitar Hero/Rock Band games try something somewhat new, it worked, and now they simply rehash the games over and over again because people keep buying them.  You can't really fault the companies for cashing in on their successes, just like Nintendo is doing right now.  The Wii itself was a innovation, a risk, and a gamble, and it paid off for them. Wii Sports, Wii Fit were also gambles for them as well, and again they paid off.  You're right in that Nintendo is most likely swimming in money right now, and they probably want to continue their dip in the money bin, so they are going to milk this for a while.  Dead Rising might be the next series to be milked as well.

In another sense, sequels that improve upon a somewhat proven formula are also great as well.  ZOE2 is probably my best example of that.  I really liked ZOE1, but it had its flaws, whereas ZOE2 essentially fixed every problem I had with the 1st game and improved upon it.  Power Stone 2 is probably another example of improving upon a certain formula, which is why I would love a Power Stone 3 to improve upon the Power Stone formula I already love and fix some of the flaws that the game had, as well as give Wang Tang back his Super Spirit Bomb.

Getting back to the point though, if Nintendo is not trying anything new, then what would you define Metroid: Other M as?  I haven't played the game yet, but from the vids I've seen, Ninty & Team Ninja are taking the series in a new direction in terms of what seems like more background story/info into Samus herself, with much more voice acting and possible plot development, etc.  Also, the gameplay quickly switching from 2D/2.5D to 3D FPS like that seems pretty new to me, in the sense that I can't recall another game doing it ever.  I'm no gaming expert, but I could be wrong.  To me though, this seems like a risk because they could probably make more money just putting together a new NSMBWii or another proven $20 Million seller. 

Also, for that matter, what about the Wii Vitality Sensor?  Sure, it can be a gimmick for who knows what, seeing as how at E3 Nintendo gave us nothing to work with regarding it (terrible marketing IMO).  But who knows what they have planned for it.
First of all, thank you for giving reason to where it's due. Second, I'll type out a decent response, just give me a few hours. I don't do hangovers as well as I used to.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #67 on: May 09, 2010, 04:13:43 PM
Oh cool, so the thread can keep going? Awesome. I'll post in a bit though as well, I'm going to church then job hunting later.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #68 on: May 09, 2010, 08:05:31 PM
Oh cool, so the thread can keep going? Awesome. I'll post in a bit though as well, I'm going to church then job hunting later.
You're gonna have to give me some more time. My head's still not in order. I was gonna make a point of how we really need more long-term games, make a point on the questionable longevity of a game like Mario Kart or Wii Sports which may last a long time but you don't get it to play continuously in progression, about how Metroid: Other M is a big step on the right direction, and about how we just need more of that stuff to legitimize the Wii and keep it going, because it's got mad awesome potencial. Then I'd make a footnote about how Nintendo needs to make some damn games to work with the console's various peripherals.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #69 on: May 09, 2010, 09:05:20 PM
First of all, thank you for giving reason to where it's due. Second, I'll type out a decent response, just give me a few hours. I don't do hangovers as well as I used to.

SO THEN I SHOULDN'T TYPE IN CAPSLOCK LIKE THIS, SHOULD I?   8D



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #70 on: May 09, 2010, 09:29:35 PM
SO THEN I SHOULDN'T TYPE IN CAPSLOCK LIKE THIS, SHOULD I?   8D
OH GOD MY METAPHORICAL EARS



Offline Kit

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Reply #71 on: May 10, 2010, 01:34:29 AM
Nintendo has pretty much been around for my entire life.
Lately they are being jerks >:I

I'm too lazy to read this thread and find out what's going on, so here's how I feel right now.



they dont think it be like it is but it do


Offline Dexter Dexter

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Reply #72 on: May 10, 2010, 01:37:26 AM
Nintendo needs to make some more damn games to work with the console's various peripherals.
Fixed.
AMEN PREACH THE TRUTH

Also, Nintendo's anti-piracy policies can go to hell and back. And to hell again.

SAMPLE TEXT


Offline Mirby

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Reply #73 on: May 10, 2010, 01:41:57 AM
I agree with that. Right now, it's like this:

"Soo.. we have how many peripherals?"
"Uhh.. I don't know, a lot?"
"Sounds good. How many games work with each peripheral?"
"Two."
"Perfect!"

More games for the peripherals! COME ON!

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything


Offline Black Mage J

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Reply #74 on: May 10, 2010, 01:44:10 AM
What we need is a power glove.
Why? Because it's so bad.