Topic: The Double Edged Nintendo Fallacy

[Dantonumanoa Ongdolota Amycronicon]

I'm confused as to what happened in the first few posts...

[Jericho]

"What is triple A (AAA)? Nothing but a miserable pile of labeling.. But enough talk, have at you!"

Just thought I'd point something out that I've noticed over the course of foruming, I wouldn't put all my eggs in a particular basket due to the amount of money pumped into it and its marketing (both of which seem to be characteristic of that AAA label I see used a lot). Doing so limits your view of what is a good game by making you think only blockbuster styled things are worth the time as well as makes you neglect smaller titles that might be of the same value or greater in terms of lasting game play and inventiveness.

(Funnily enough, during the time I was writing the last half of that sentence, Little King's Story was on my mind. )

As for the wanting bigger and newer experiences, well I'll admit that I feel the same way too. Hell, even Iwata feels the same as he has gone on record and mentioned that as a part of the shortcomings Nintendo had this gen, pioneering newer franchises and IPs was one of the big one. Thing is, as I mentioned before, those things take time and resources, both of which Nintendo is stretched thin of (fun fact: Nintendo only has about 3000 - 3500 workers worldwide. This encompasses everyone from their big name developers, to the guys in retail at Nintendo World). On top of that, this is all a very experimental phase where Nintendo has to produce things that resonate with an infinitely broader audience. If they make "Mega Epic: The Game" and can't make back their investment in making such a game because some elements turned off their fan base or the marketing for it didn't hit the right audience and as a result the game doesn't do as well as forecasted, it'll eat away at how they can move about and operate when doing things like that.

In the end, this part ties a lot more into business. They not only have to have an amazing concept, focus test the hell out of the game play to make it comfortable for their entire audience (not just the guys growing up who blew apart the older games and got used to them), and create a fitting scenario for said game play, they also have to have the right marketing, advertising, and timing for such a game to succeed according to the way they want it to.

Finally, I don't know about you but I have fun playing tried and true, tried and true with [tornado fang] awesome new spins and twists, and fresh out the oven brand new and awesome games all the same. I'd be more than saddened if I had to deal with Nintendo franchises changing for the sake of change rather than for game play that is fitting and relevant to the series' foundations.

[Bueno Excelente]

But then, my question is, what new experiences are coming out on the 360 and PS3?  Because outside of Little Big Planet, I can't think of any games on those two systems that has been a new experience, in terms of gaming.

Not insanely new experiences, the way Nintendo showed they could be on the new consoles, but we get AAA titles coming out all the time. And new franchises. The point of the Wii was that it didn't have as many buttons or analog sticks as the other consoles, so the gameplay would have to change to make way for new games and new experiences. Developers just ended up making typical games for it and added waggle.

[Mirby]

"What is triple A (AAA)? Nothing but a miserable pile of labeling.. But enough talk, have at you!"

Just thought I'd point something out that I've noticed over the course of foruming, I wouldn't put all my eggs in a particular basket due to the amount of money pumped into it and its marketing (both of which seem to be characteristic of that AAA label I see used a lot). Doing so limits your view of what is a good game by making you think only blockbuster styled things are worth the time as well as makes you neglect smaller titles that might be of the same value or greater in terms of lasting game play and inventiveness.

(Funnily enough, during the time I was writing the last half of that sentence, Little King's Story was on my mind. )

As for the wanting bigger and newer experiences, well I'll admit that I feel the same way too. Hell, even Iwata feels the same as he has gone on record and mentioned that as a part of the shortcomings Nintendo had this gen, pioneering newer franchises and IPs was one of the big one. Thing is, as I mentioned before, those things take time and resources, both of which Nintendo is stretched thin of (fun fact: Nintendo only has about 3000 - 3500 workers worldwide. This encompasses everyone from their big name developers, to the guys in retail at Nintendo World). On top of that, this is all a very experimental phase where Nintendo has to produce things that resonate with an infinitely broader audience. If they make "Mega Epic: The Game" and can't make back their investment in making such a game because some elements turned off their fan base or the marketing for it didn't hit the right audience and as a result the game doesn't do as well as forecasted, it'll eat away at how they can move about and operate when doing things like that.

In the end, this part ties a lot more into business. They not only have to have an amazing concept, focus test the hell out of the game play to make it comfortable for their entire audience (not just the guys growing up who blew apart the older games and got used to them), and create a fitting scenario for said game play, they also have to have the right marketing, advertising, and timing for such a game to succeed according to the way they want it to.

Finally, I don't know about you but I have fun playing tried and true, tried and true with [tornado fang] awesome new spins and twists, and fresh out the oven brand new and awesome games all the same. I'd be more than saddened if I had to deal with Nintendo franchises changing for the sake of change rather than for game play that is fitting and relevant to the series' foundations.

This... this is all completely true, and I agree with it, 100%.

[Dexter Dexter]

I'm lambasting Nintendo because they've failed to see to the needs of the fans that have supported them for quite awhile, and are instead focusing on Mii-related games, such as Wii Sports, Wii Fit, and now Wii Party. Nothing wrong with making money. My only problem is that Nintendo has some of the most hardcore fans of the entire gaming industry. (not me BTW) That have stood by it through thick and thin. And the way they're repaying them, seems very unsuitable, by switching to another audience completely. I'm sayiung they're failing to see to the needs of the fans. I love Nintendo games when they're well made. I bought a Wii specifically for this. But it saddens me when it's just a dust-catcher lately. Aside from Sin & Punishment 2, I haven't played anything on it for awhile. I am not system-bashing. I just think that the potencial of the system hasn't been used at all. I bought the Wii Motion Plus, and so far, I've used it for TWO games. Ad I've had it for nearly a year, with no upcoming games on the horizon that require it. This isn't good.

But my main point was that while other consoles seem to have a huge stream of games waiting every week, Nintendo slowly trickles decent games. Sure they've provided us with quite a few revivals and fan-catering. But what I'd truly love to see, would be something other than remakes, rehashes and retro-revivals. The Wii's supposed to be a console for the next generation, dammit. I thought I was going to play the equivalent of what Shenmue brought to the 128-bit generation when the remote was first revealed. So far, I've seen very few of Nintendo's AAA releases that use the controller the way it should be used, and that even reach a tiny bit of the potencial the console actually has. New Mario Bros? Punch-Out? Really good, but I think I've played all of this before. When do we see true gambles within or outside franchises? Gambles the way the first Pikmin was, or Luigi's Mansion, or Wind Waker were? Those felt like authentic new experiences, AAA ones. I don't see anything that Nintendo's coming out with, that isn't a sequel or a minigame compilation. The DS is getting TONS of love, but there's no such thing on the Wii. From Nintendo OR from third-parties. Where's the Wii's very own Eternal Darkness, or Resident Evil 4? What company is putting their own hopes on the Wii to lead their games to victory, other than Nintendo alone? Where's a company like Rare from the N64 days? Where's the magic we expected from Nintendo by now?

We've gotten almost much every single one of Nintendo's biggest hits re-released or ported in some way or shape for the Wii, either in downloadable format, or in straight ports with Wii controls. We can play tons of Gamecube hits with Wii control features, and we're glad for it.

But when are we going to have a slew of games coming out, nearing the potencial that Mario Galaxy has had so far? When are we going to have truly great, long and deep game experiences, that take the gameplay itself into a whole new dimension? Where are the new franchises, the new games? That's what I'm missing. And that's what's turning alot of people off Nintendo.

THIS is why my Wii is still near empty after about two years. And I think some of this could apply to the DSi. Like how there is no DSi version of the Virtual Console. Then again, the DSi Virtual Console thing is another story.

[Jericho]

THIS is why my Wii is still near empty after about two years. And I think some of this could apply to the DSi. Like how there is no DSi version of the Virtual Console.

And again, I point you to the two responses I've given to Flash. The answers are there. You also need to be a bit more broad with your tastes if you want to find great experiences on Wii. The big stuff is still coming and shows no signs of stopping up yet though, so if you're strictly looking for "the next big thing" I think you'll be pretty surprised soon.

[VixyNyan]

Oh there will be Virtual Console on DSi/3DS. Just wait. ^^;

The question is what systems it's gonna be based on. (GBx, GBC, GBA, NGPC, Wonderswan, Lynx, Game Gear, stuff?)

[Mirby]

I may end up getting a DSi; seeing as my DS is dead and won't work...

I can't wait for VC on DS though; it'll be a long time coming when it does.

[Bueno Excelente]

"What is triple A (AAA)? Nothing but a miserable pile of labeling.. But enough talk, have at you!"

Just thought I'd point something out that I've noticed over the course of foruming, I wouldn't put all my eggs in a particular basket due to the amount of money pumped into it and its marketing (both of which seem to be characteristic of that AAA label I see used a lot). Doing so limits your view of what is a good game by making you think only blockbuster styled things are worth the time as well as makes you neglect smaller titles that might be of the same value or greater in terms of lasting game play and inventiveness.

(Funnily enough, during the time I was writing the last half of that sentence, Little King's Story was on my mind. )

As for the wanting bigger and newer experiences, well I'll admit that I feel the same way too. Hell, even Iwata feels the same as he has gone on record and mentioned that as a part of the shortcomings Nintendo had this gen, pioneering newer franchises and IPs was one of the big one. Thing is, as I mentioned before, those things take time and resources, both of which Nintendo is stretched thin of (fun fact: Nintendo only has about 3000 - 3500 workers worldwide. This encompasses everyone from their big name developers, to the guys in retail at Nintendo World). On top of that, this is all a very experimental phase where Nintendo has to produce things that resonate with an infinitely broader audience. If they make "Mega Epic: The Game" and can't make back their investment in making such a game because some elements turned off their fan base or the marketing for it didn't hit the right audience and as a result the game doesn't do as well as forecasted, it'll eat away at how they can move about and operate when doing things like that.

In the end, this part ties a lot more into business. They not only have to have an amazing concept, focus test the hell out of the game play to make it comfortable for their entire audience (not just the guys growing up who blew apart the older games and got used to them), and create a fitting scenario for said game play, they also have to have the right marketing, advertising, and timing for such a game to succeed according to the way they want it to.

Finally, I don't know about you but I have fun playing tried and true, tried and true with [tornado fang] awesome new spins and twists, and fresh out the oven brand new and awesome games all the same. I'd be more than saddened if I had to deal with Nintendo franchises changing for the sake of change rather than for game play that is fitting and relevant to the series' foundations.

You're right when it comes to AAA titles not always being good. And I do consider Little King's Story, at heart, an AAA experience. Because it's more than worth it, it's basically the next step in Pikmin-like gaming, and I'm sad to see that it didn't make enough money to warrant a sequel.

Although I'm gonna call absolute bullshit on the "not making their money back". Nintendo is SWIMMING in money. If they've got few teams and employees, then HIRE MORE. If they've got few resources, EXPAND. It's what Capcom and Square-Enix did. Every company has to expand if the want to maintain their position on a certain market. Nintendo needs to spread their tentacles on every direction and grab ahold of everything they can. They can't just sit in a comfortable position for ages and expect to be like that forever. Their overall salves went down 20% this year. I'm betting they wouldn't if they had taken more chances, spent more money on meaninful choices. If Nintendo had the money to blow back in the Gamecube days, they sure as hell have it now. The DS is prospering, it's time they pay attention to their home console.

[Mirby]

A little tidbit to throw in: Sales dropped for Nintendo in the last quarter. Just thought I'd throw that in.

[Bueno Excelente]

A little tidbit to throw in: Sales dropped for Nintendo in the last quarter. Just thought I'd throw that in.

They can't just sit in a comfortable position for ages and expect to be like that forever. Their overall salves went down 20% this year. I'm betting they wouldn't if they had taken more chances, spent more money on meaninful choices. If Nintendo had the money to blow back in the Gamecube days, they sure as hell have it now.

My last reply, for context.

[Mirby]

Sorry, missed that.

[Hypershell]

Aren't we still in a recession?  Sales dropped for EVERYTHING in the last quarter.  You cannot look at every bump in the road as a sign of Nintendo's apocalypse.  Call me when Sony and Microsoft can show life-to-date sales that are at all respectable by comparison.

Ok, sorry, but whenever I see someone say this I just can't see where they are coming from. Lets make a list shall we?
[spoiler=long list]
Casual Nintendo games
-Wii Sports
-Wii Play
-Wii Music
-Wii Sports Resort
-Wii Fit Plus
-Wii Party
-Big Brain Academy
-Wario Ware Smooth Move
-Mario Party 8 (the last 2 are only here if you want to count all party games)

VS

-Excite Truck
-Excite Bots
-Super Paper Mario
-Pokémon Battle Revolution
-Mario Strikers Charged
-Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
-Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
-Battalion Wars 2
-Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
-Super Mario Galaxy
-Endless Ocean
-Super Smash Bros. Brawl
-Mario Kart Wii
-Wario Land: The Shake Dimension
-Animal Crossing: City Folk (Ok, maybe to some people this goes in the other list)
-Disaster: Day of Crisis
-Mario Super Sluggers
-Captain Rainbow (Japan only)
-Punch-Out!!
-New Super Mario Bros. Wii
-Another Code: R
-Tact of Magic (Japan only)
-Endless Ocean 2: Adventures of the Deep
-Zangeki no REGINLEIV (Japan only)
-Sin and Punishment: Star Successor
-Super Mario Galaxy 2
-Metroid: Other M
-FlingSmash
-Xenoblade
-The Last Story
-The Legend of Zelda Wii
-Line Attack Heroes
-Kirby (whenever it comes out -__-)
-Pikmin 3 (what I said for the above)
-Cosmic Walker (and this one too)[/spoiler]


See anything wrong with the way some people see things compared to the actual facts?

Taiyo, I love you.  I thought I was the only one.

I did a blog post on IGN a while back about the constant "Nintendo abandoned us" whining.  An excerpt from that pretty much sums up my thoughts:

"...most of the "core activity" we saw from Nintendo in the last two console generations was sports spinoffs, party games, and the like, most of which would these days be considered casual. Back then we weren't threatened by the "C word". Even the SNES had a few with games like Mario Paint. And yes, we loved those too. But when you get into the really, really "core" titles, there aren't actually that many, made evident by several defenders of NSMBWii who I've seen refer to it as SMB5 (World, a Super NES game, being 4). For a console only just now entering its 4th year, Nintendo has delivered quite a bit to satisfy that oldschool epic craving we all share. If anything was lost in their casual audience it was the Mario Party line, which is a minigame compilation, the most over-saturated game genre you'll currently find on the Wii. So what's all the complaining about?"

Basically, see a lot of this as nothing but a matter of perception, due to such things as Miis replacing Mario in spinoffs.  Casual games always existed.  It was only in this generation that we started looking at them as not being directed towards us (or, at the very least, caring that they weren't).

I understood when these comments came between Brawl and Punch-Out!!.  There WAS a distressing lack of Nintendo titles back then.  Mario Kart Wii, the only expected "heavy hitter" in the interim, did not live up to expectations (the CPU is terrible and the multiplayer is stripped-down).  We had every right to demand better.  But a lot of it was a fundamental shift in Nintendo's marketing.  Brawl saw a long, long buildup (virtually the entire lifespan of the console, in fact) met with frustration over delays and hype mountains all but impossible to actually meet, and Nintendo at that point made a shift in their marketing tactics.  They don't announce their projects as early anymore, so naturally it means there was a cutoff at some point.  Brawl-to-Punch-Out!! was it, and some fans have obviously not adjusted.

Despite we still have four hardcore titles on the way, in addition to Punch-Out!!, Excitebots, and NSMBWii.

The reason I play games is to try something new

...no offense, but you'll forgive me if I'm wondering what the hell you're doing on a MegaMan board?

[Archer]

...no offense, but you'll forgive me if I'm wondering what the hell you're doing on a MegaMan board?

cause Kyouya told him to join

[Protoman Blues]

Not insanely new experiences, the way Nintendo showed they could be on the new consoles, but we get AAA titles coming out all the time. And new franchises. The point of the Wii was that it didn't have as many buttons or analog sticks as the other consoles, so the gameplay would have to change to make way for new games and new experiences. Developers just ended up making typical games for it and added waggle.

I guess it really depends on the type of game.  I mean, if you take Wii Sports & Wii Sports Resort, for instance, it does offer a "new experience" in terms of gaming and such.  My personal favorite is Archery, as I could just relax with that for hours.  In another thread somewhere, I made a post on what I'd like to see offered up for a new Kid Icarus game-icus, using the Mote-Chuk system.  But I'm not a game developer, so I don't know if it's feasible or not. Also, for me New Super Mario Bros Wii was a truly new experience, because it was the first time that I've ever played a true Co-op Mario game with friends, and out of all the great games that came out last year, that was my favorite. I got to throw my friends into lava and poison lakes. It was such a blast. 

Although I'm gonna call absolute bullshit on the "not making their money back". Nintendo is SWIMMING in money. If they've got few teams and employees, then HIRE MORE. If they've got few resources, EXPAND. It's what Capcom and Square-Enix did. Every company has to expand if the want to maintain their position on a certain market. Nintendo needs to spread their tentacles on every direction and grab ahold of everything they can. They can't just sit in a comfortable position for ages and expect to be like that forever. Their overall salves went down 20% this year. I'm betting they wouldn't if they had taken more chances, spent more money on meaninful choices. If Nintendo had the money to blow back in the Gamecube days, they sure as hell have it now. The DS is prospering, it's time they pay attention to their home console.

As for this, Nintendo is indeed swimming in money, but the difference between Nintendo and Microsoft & Sony is that Nintendo's sole focus is in the gaming industry, while for Microsoft & Sony, this is but one division.  It's the reason we see DS after DS, because that's where the money is made.  People talk about the Wii faltering and such, being a fad, etc., and what I think a lot of them don't understand is that when sales for the Wii actually do start to take a significant drop, they'll simply make a new system.  With meaningful choices, for them Wii Fit & the new Wii Party coming out are the meaningful choices, cause judging by sales the 20 millions copies sold of each of those types of games (excluding Wii Music I believe), that's where they make their most money from.  At PAX EAST, I had a chance to talk with Seth Killian about Power Stone 3. He told me that Capcom has talked about making it, but they're a business and they have to weigh there options. Despite how much I, he, and other Power Stone fans would love a new Power Stone game, they know that a new Street Fighter, Devil May Cry, or other more popular franchise would easily guarantee them more money in the long run, so they sit and sit on Power Stone. It's probably the same reason why I could never see a ZOE3 made, because Konami knows that a MGS game is going to sell tons more.  So this is also what goes on at Nintendo as well, and despite swimming in money, they still have to weigh their options carefully and since I'm just a Nintendo fan and I don't sit in on their business meetings, I'm not one to judge.

Also, s-kill is a huge Power Stone fan! 

[Mirby]

All very good points. Microsoft and Sony can lose money with their systems and still be fine; they make a whole hell of a lot of other stuff that can more than make up for any losses. Nintendo is solely games; if they lose too much money from games, then that's not good. They don't have other tech to make up for the losses. This is probably part of the reason that they release these "casual" games. To appeal to a much wider audience than if they only made the games you want. If they did that, they'd have lost even more money.

And yes, NSMBWii did let you do that. And you could refuse to pop the bubbles! ^_^ And meat shields. That's all that needs to be said, really.

[Bueno Excelente]

cause Kyouya told him to join

True.  

I guess it really depends on the type of game.  I mean, if you take Wii Sports & Wii Sports Resort, for instance, it does offer a "new experience" in terms of gaming and such.  My personal favorite is Archery, as I could just relax with that for hours.  In another thread somewhere, I made a post on what I'd like to see offered up for a new Kid Icarus game-icus, using the Mote-Chuk system.  But I'm not a game developer, so I don't know if it's feasible or not. Also, for me New Super Mario Bros Wii was a truly new experience, because it was the first time that I've ever played a true Co-op Mario game with friends, and out of all the great games that came out last year, that was my favorite. I got to throw my friends into lava and poison lakes. It was such a blast.  

The Wii Sports games really offer a new experience, but they both seem more like tech demos to show what the console can do than something you can lose hours in. And as for Mario, platforming isn't really the kind of game type to necessitate co-op, thus the constant mess the game offers of everyone throwing each other down cliffs and into lava. Co-op games should require other players to proceed in the action rather than them be a hinderance. Little Big Planet did this well. New Super Mario Bros Wii just rehashes most things the old Mario titles offered, without bringing anything new to the table. I don't feel like I'm playing anything I haven't played time and time again. The old games felt unique and like something wonderful. New Mario Bros Wii just feels samey.

As for this, Nintendo is indeed swimming in money, but the difference between Nintendo and Microsoft & Sony is that Nintendo's sole focus is in the gaming industry, while for Microsoft & Sony, this is but one division.  It's the reason we see DS after DS, because that's where the money is made.  People talk about the Wii faltering and such, being a fad, etc., and what I think a lot of them don't understand is that when sales for the Wii actually do start to take a significant drop, they'll simply make a new system.  With meaningful choices, for them Wii Fit & the new Wii Party coming out are the meaningful choices, cause judging by sales the 20 millions copies sold of each of those types of games (excluding Wii Music I believe), that's where they make their most money from.  At PAX EAST, I had a chance to talk with Seth Killian about Power Stone 3. He told me that Capcom has talked about making it, but they're a business and they have to weigh there options. Despite how much I, he, and other Power Stone fans would love a new Power Stone game, they know that a new Street Fighter, Devil May Cry, or other more popular franchise would easily guarantee them more money in the long run, so they sit and sit on Power Stone. It's probably the same reason why I could never see a ZOE3 made, because Konami knows that a MGS game is going to sell tons more.  So this is also what goes on at Nintendo as well, and despite swimming in money, they still have to weigh their options carefully and since I'm just a Nintendo fan and I don't sit in on their business meetings, I'm not one to judge.

Also, s-kill is a huge Power Stone fan!  

Why the HELL do I want more sequels? I have Power Stone 1 and 2 for both the Dreamcast AND the PSP. I want to see Capcom try new things! Dead Rising, Dark Void, THOSE games took chances. One was awesome, the other was mediocre. But they TRIED SOMETHING NEW. And I applaud them for that. Platinum Games tries new things, and every single thing they put out is awesome incarnate. They tried new things back when they were Clover and Capcom put them out of the team. But Nintendo is swimming in rivers of money, and they don't take ONE. SINGLE. RISK. A tiny little innovation, ANYTHING. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I like sequels alot when they try something new, but Nintendo is just throwing revivals and rehashes at us. I don't like it.

[Jericho]

Sorry man, but seriously PB already addressed why Nintendo can't do those "awesome and new" things very clearly. Their moves have to be scrutinized more by themselves since all they do is make games. Any profit they make, be it a cent or eleventy billion dollars has to be maximized to the fullest since they don't have any other ventures to get disposable income from. (Being a conservative company, Nintendo has to make sure that they have enough money made on their own to ensure their operations can thrive for beyond the known future and then some.)

As such, they have to stick to the surefire winners 9 times out of 10 to make sure that they make a profit and that said profit is enough for their stash and (this is critical) enough to please their shareholders in the stock market.

Also, this might be more opinion than anything, but if NSMBWii didn't bring anything new to the table in terms of 2D platform design, then I really need to know more about the type of platformers you've been playing. The pieces individually (multi-man co-op, level set pieces & designs) might be nothing new, but the implementation made NSMBWii one of my favorite games of last year and a thorough blast to play.

[Mirby]

Imma finding Kyouya so I can slap him for inviting you..

At this point, you're arguing from a corner, and just repeating yourself. Which means all we can do is repeat ourselves. Just stop; you've lost, be gracious and accept it.

[Bueno Excelente]

Sorry man, but seriously PB already addressed why Nintendo can't do those "awesome and new" things very clearly. Their moves have to be scrutinized more by themselves since all they do is make games. Any profit they make, be it a cent or eleventy billion dollars has to be maximized to the fullest since they don't have any other ventures to get disposable income from. (Being a conservative company, Nintendo has to make sure that they have enough money made on their own to ensure their operations can thrive for beyond the known future and then some.)

As such, they have to stick to the surefire winners 9 times out of 10 to make sure that they make a profit and that said profit is enough for their stash and (this is critical) enough to please their shareholders in the stock market.

Also, this might be more opinion than anything, but if NSMBWii didn't bring anything new to the table in terms of 2D platform design, then I really need to know more about the type of platformers you've been playing. The pieces individually (multi-man co-op, level set pieces & designs) might be nothing new, but the implementation made NSMBWii one of my favorite games of last year and a thorough blast to play.

All Capcom and Square-Enix do is make games as well. That doesn't mean they stop creating new titles and franchises. Nintendo's excuse is LAZINESS. And I never said NSMBW was a bad game. It's thoroughly enjoyable. It's just nothing original, they just did something fans wanted and neglected to give anything more. Same with Twilight Princess. Fans wanted more Ocarina, they gave us more Ocarina, and nothing more, nothing less. It wasn't anything of a surprise, it wasn't anything creative, nothing. Mario Galaxy was creative. This, wasn't. And the reason I enjoy Nintendo, is its creativity and way that it innovates (or used to) at every turn. If we turn to a company for the company and not for the wonderful things it creates, we're just annoying fanboys.

Imma finding Kyouya so I can slap him for inviting you..

At this point, you're arguing from a corner, and just repeating yourself. Which means all we can do is repeat ourselves. Just stop; you've lost, be gracious and accept it.

Haven't seen alot of repeated sentences from me. I think you're just not bothering to read the posts.

[Mirby]

You aren't repeating sentences word for word; you're just repeating ideas and arguments.

Meh, I've said my word. I still think you've lost; I'm outta this topic.

Also, one last thing. Nintendo keeps releasing new hardware, which is a big gamble. Capcom and Square-Enix don't. Nintendo needs to recoup the manufacturing costs from the hardware somehow.

[Bueno Excelente]

You aren't repeating sentences word for word; you're just repeating ideas and arguments.

Meh, I've said my word. I still think you've lost; I'm outta this topic.

Also, one last thing. Nintendo keeps releasing new hardware, which is a big gamble. Capcom and Square-Enix don't. Nintendo needs to recoup the manufacturing costs from the hardware somehow.

Nintendo IS recovering the costs from the hardware. By SELLING THE DAMN HARDWARE. Nintendo started out as the one single company that made a profit on each console they sold, because Sony and Microsoft started out losing money for each console, getting their money back in game sales. Nintendo's making the big bucks in consoles, we don't need them getting lazy in games. All I'm asking for is new franchises. All companies do them. UbiSoft, EA, Square-Enix, Capcom, Sega... why shouldn't Nintendo?

[Mirby]

But every time they make new hardware, it takes a lot of money to do so. Research and development, testing, getting everything to be just right... It costs a lot. You think that 100 copies of the new hardware will recoup the costs? 1,000? 10,000? It's quite expensive to manufacture all that stuff. It's not as simple as you seem to be making it sound.

[Bueno Excelente]

But every time they make new hardware, it takes a lot of money to do so. Research and development, testing, getting everything to be just right... It costs a lot. You think that 100 copies of the new hardware will recoup the costs? 1,000? 10,000? It's quite expensive to manufacture all that stuff. It's not as simple as you seem to be making it sound.

Oh, yes. Because Nintendo, of all companies, the company that is selling consoles like CRAZY, the company who introduced their system to the ederly and who had everyone out foaming for a Wii, in a way that it was impossible to find a Wii without a pre-order in a shop for AGES, isn't making enough money. The one company that sold not just the cheapest console, but the most basic hardware evolution within that console from their previous generation, isn't making enough money.

Are you LISTENING TO YOURSELF? Jesus Christ, if the gaming industry was like that, it would have gone entirely bankrupt ages ago. Of COURSE Nintendo is making alot of money! That isn't really in question. And of COURSE they saved craploads of money with the Wii.

[Mirby]

I'm done.