Super Smash Bros. Thread

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #1325 on: January 01, 2009, 10:40:21 AM
What was horrible about that match is the fact that I flew into those punches ready to counter or do something crazy, but the lag was awful. I remember that it took a full 2 seconds for a few moves to register during that fight. Meh, all in all the fights were fun, just kinda sigh inducing at times. I'm off to sleep now.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1326 on: January 01, 2009, 10:46:41 AM
You know what I absolutely can't understand thinking of it? How can Peach of all characters truly pose such a threat to me and my play style? Forget lag for a second, is it possible that she's just the one character that I can't beat period?

That's the other thing I can't understand. PB knows full and well that I'm good with the light jump to hover tactic, but even so, I can't KO for anything with her. I'll do crazy amounts of damage, but the follow through is ugh.

Getting back to this for a sec, but just to let you know, in Melee, my Peach was a Whorecunt of a Smug [sonic slicer].  Brawl Peach is totally weaker than Melee Peach, but that's because they HAD to do it.  Peach's Down Smash, if someone was ducking, could get a character for 0%-95% in one massive hit, along with the confusion of where it left you, plus the arc it would send people in.  Not to mention, her grabs were infinitely superior, especially her Bitchslap.  God, I MISS her Bitchslap.   8D

Peach is, above every other character I play with, my tricky style character.  Her hover makes her SO good at dodging, and I masted it very well in Melee, and they actually improved upon her dodging in this game, with Toad and the Umbrella being much more useful.  Next to Toon Link, I'd say she's my 2nd best character.

A quick note too, but when I was at PAX 07 in the Melee Tourney they had there, even though I competed with Fox, we were having some fun matches before the tourney started, and about 5-6 people commented on how my Peach was the best they ever played against.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #1327 on: January 01, 2009, 10:50:03 AM
I can see why though, for someone like me who has to plan everything ahead, all of Peach's hang time wears on my mind a bit, so approaches will always be juggled with her. What's funny is I think I've known for a while that I shouldn't chase her, but at the same time, I have to try and make things decisive. That's where I fall apart.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1328 on: January 01, 2009, 10:52:18 AM
Oh yessss, Peach is so much fun like that!  The idea IS to totally keep a person guessing.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #1329 on: January 01, 2009, 10:55:38 AM
Still though, I'm wondering if you've noticed anything interesting about how I play Marth. At this point, I'm not really getting better, but I don't know whether or not you all can read him.



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Reply #1330 on: January 01, 2009, 11:00:51 AM
Well, and I'm not sure but, I think you're holding back with the Counters a little bit. 

Other than that though, I'd say Marth is still your best character.  LoL, remember that Zelda is one of my best, and I still can't really beat your Marth with her!  XD



Offline Jericho

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Reply #1331 on: January 01, 2009, 11:08:18 AM
So then, is it that I'm not thinking well enough to take on Peach or you and your Peach are better than me period? XD



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Reply #1332 on: January 01, 2009, 11:12:10 AM
So then, is it that I'm not thinking well enough to take on Peach or you and your Peach are better than me period? XD

Well I won't lie, my Peach is very good.  She's a very good counter to your Marth because of what you mentioned up above.  She throws off planning with her hovering and such, which I've pretty much mastered.  Only a few characters give me trouble with her. 



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Reply #1333 on: January 02, 2009, 01:31:46 AM
I feel the need......  The need....FOR 2.0 COIN MATCHES!

Yet another new pair of stages today, based on a certain classic RPG:
http://mysite.verizon.net/Serpentara/WarriorQuest.zip

I think the "Dragon's Lair" stage would be a blast.  So, let's try it!  I'll set up the room, you guys know the drill: Download it, get it to your SD card, and play one round in it before connecting with me.

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Reply #1334 on: January 02, 2009, 03:24:23 AM
Have I done this before? Some of the folks over at GAF were doing a rant on Brawl and Smash in general and I happened to share a few notes with them from my own mind. I was wondering if I've done the same over here as well. The post is spoilered below due to size, but it's not too terrible. I'd love to know what RPM has to say in response as well, so be sure to leave a response or two should you read it.

[spoiler=Thoughts on Smash.]64 > Brawl > Melee here. Honestly, the only reason that 64 ranks so high up there is because even with everything that could possibly be enhanced and tightened, nothing matches up to that manic WTF feeling that Smash 64 seemed to get perfectly. Brawl came the closest though.

As for me putting it up over Melee, I'd say it's because it had a better sense of balance (in b4 a picture of MetaKnight or Snake) and scale. There's never a moment where things feel like they're moving too fast for their own good (a complaint I used to hear a lot with the non tournament crowd). That faster and more precise level of play is now (even moreso) up to the skill level of the opponents in the ring rather than who knows the better exploits. Keep in mind this is my preference speaking. There is never a moment when I put away Brawl and play a different game or Smash 64 over it. That happened to me numerous times while playing Melee and I will never understand why. Brawl simply manages to keep things more lively and energetic it seems.

If you want to talk mechanics, whether stage, character or in general, again in my opinion, Brawl easily has the best set of them. Items had solid and satisfying physics again when compared to Melee's "bucket of bricks" throwing physics, I didn't feel bad when playing as any specific characters and winning with them due to brokenness (Fox & Falco in Melee, I'm looking at both of you), and the level designs while bland at first, have grown on me quite a lot. Sure, as a Smash veteran, I was a bit miffed at the loss of a few things, such as L canceling (didn't care much for wave/dash dancing) but hey, you work with what you've got. Meanwhile, if you focus solely on what was lost and don't experiment, you won't find things in this game that will appeal to you and might even work better for you and your play style than in Melee.

My only gripes with the game come from the online mode and the diversity of the character roster. Granted, as of now lag isn't such a terrible problem for me due to messing with the Wii's wireless settings and my router, there are still instances where a slight input delay have cost me matches that I've done brilliantly in otherwise. You would think that by now, there would have been an overhaul on the infrastructure used for Brawl so that matches would run more smoothly, but then again, something like that doesn't seem plausible for the future. :(

As for the character roster itself, Nintendo played it very conservatively in terms of diversifying the characters. Lyn should damn well have been playable. She could have offered a different style of swordsmanship that Smash desperately needed. Saki is another one as well. Why couldn't he have been just like his AT, a nimble speeder with a crazy mix of short and long range prowess? Lil' Mac is another one, he's a [tornado fang]ing boxer, something that just screams interesting in the world of Smash. There are others though (Issac, Mike Jones, Takamaru, Lip, Ashley, Captain Syrup, Daisy, etc.). I guess what I'm trying to say for this part is, why is it that Brawl, that was supposed to be this hugely different game from Melee & 64 feels like it's trapped in the Melee days in terms of the roster? Why is it that Brawl didn't have more unique spell casters, witches and warlocks? Why do the Star Fox characters all still share heavy similarities? Why the [tornado fang] does Ganondorf, the [chameleon sting]ing king of darkness, still play mostly like Captain Falcon? Does that even make sense? (Excluding his side special which is of one of the best and most fitting and creative moves for him imo XD)

I think Jiggy made a note of this in the Dojo Thread GAF had a while back (I wasn't a member back then) and it's the truth, there were characters that should have been in Brawl because they would have played wildly unlike anything that was in the series up until that point and there are characters in the game right now that feel like they still have so much more progression and potential for unique skills and play styles.

All in all, I have to say that those of you who were simply looking for Melee 2.0, I can understand why you would feel that Brawl was a disappointment. As for myself, while I will never say that it isn't without it's fair share of quirks and issues, I can definitely say that it is a different and more varied experience to me than Melee was.

And to end this rant on a fun note, Lucas and Ganondorf for God Tier. XD[/spoiler]



Offline HyperSonicEXE

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Reply #1335 on: January 02, 2009, 03:40:51 AM
Have I done this before? Some of the folks over at GAF were doing a rant on Brawl and Smash in general and I happened to share a few notes with them from my own mind. I was wondering if I've done the same over here as well. The post is spoilered below due to size, but it's not too terrible. I'd love to know what RPM has to say in response as well, so be sure to leave a response or two should you read it.

[spoiler=Thoughts on Smash.]64 > Brawl > Melee here. Honestly, the only reason that 64 ranks so high up there is because even with everything that could possibly be enhanced and tightened, nothing matches up to that manic WTF feeling that Smash 64 seemed to get perfectly. Brawl came the closest though.

As for me putting it up over Melee, I'd say it's because it had a better sense of balance (in b4 a picture of MetaKnight or Snake) and scale. There's never a moment where things feel like they're moving too fast for their own good (a complaint I used to hear a lot with the non tournament crowd). That faster and more precise level of play is now (even moreso) up to the skill level of the opponents in the ring rather than who knows the better exploits. Keep in mind this is my preference speaking. There is never a moment when I put away Brawl and play a different game or Smash 64 over it. That happened to me numerous times while playing Melee and I will never understand why. Brawl simply manages to keep things more lively and energetic it seems.

If you want to talk mechanics, whether stage, character or in general, again in my opinion, Brawl easily has the best set of them. Items had solid and satisfying physics again when compared to Melee's "bucket of bricks" throwing physics, I didn't feel bad when playing as any specific characters and winning with them due to brokenness (Fox & Falco in Melee, I'm looking at both of you), and the level designs while bland at first, have grown on me quite a lot. Sure, as a Smash veteran, I was a bit miffed at the loss of a few things, such as L canceling (didn't care much for wave/dash dancing) but hey, you work with what you've got. Meanwhile, if you focus solely on what was lost and don't experiment, you won't find things in this game that will appeal to you and might even work better for you and your play style than in Melee.

My only gripes with the game come from the online mode and the diversity of the character roster. Granted, as of now lag isn't such a terrible problem for me due to messing with the Wii's wireless settings and my router, there are still instances where a slight input delay have cost me matches that I've done brilliantly in otherwise. You would think that by now, there would have been an overhaul on the infrastructure used for Brawl so that matches would run more smoothly, but then again, something like that doesn't seem plausible for the future. :(

As for the character roster itself, Nintendo played it very conservatively in terms of diversifying the characters. Lyn should damn well have been playable. She could have offered a different style of swordsmanship that Smash desperately needed. Saki is another one as well. Why couldn't he have been just like his AT, a nimble speeder with a crazy mix of short and long range prowess? Lil' Mac is another one, he's a [tornado fang]ing boxer, something that just screams interesting in the world of Smash. There are others though (Issac, Mike Jones, Takamaru, Lip, Ashley, Captain Syrup, Daisy, etc.). I guess what I'm trying to say for this part is, why is it that Brawl, that was supposed to be this hugely different game from Melee & 64 feels like it's trapped in the Melee days in terms of the roster? Why is it that Brawl didn't have more unique spell casters, witches and warlocks? Why do the Star Fox characters all still share heavy similarities? Why the [tornado fang] does Ganondorf, the [chameleon sting]ing king of darkness, still play mostly like Captain Falcon? Does that even make sense? (Excluding his side special which is of one of the best and most fitting and creative moves for him imo XD)

I think Jiggy made a note of this in the Dojo Thread GAF had a while back (I wasn't a member back then) and it's the truth, there were characters that should have been in Brawl because they would have played wildly unlike anything that was in the series up until that point and there are characters in the game right now that feel like they still have so much more progression and potential for unique skills and play styles.

All in all, I have to say that those of you who were simply looking for Melee 2.0, I can understand why you would feel that Brawl was a disappointment. As for myself, while I will never say that it isn't without it's fair share of quirks and issues, I can definitely say that it is a different and more varied experience to me than Melee was.

And to end this rant on a fun note, Lucas and Ganondorf for God Tier. XD[/spoiler]

Roster was conservative for a reason: Leaves room for "improvement" for the sequel. Also, the roster for the first time CUT characters as well as okaying clone variations. Now while Ike is a better variant than Roy, Captain Ganondorf is inexcusable.

64 controls poorly compared to Brawl. It also doesn't have dodging and other mechanic features that make Melee and Brawl better. However, the design teams have felt the need to treat Brawl as a "top-shelf" game, meaning that it sacrifices the frantic, fun feeling you remember from the 64 version to prevent the series from staling with each release. Sadly, I believe they're right, and it helped to be "sterile" like that when Sonic and Snake were announced. The additions seemed more valid, and less like sales gimmicks. I still contend, though, that the artistic design and audio clips (see: Bob-Ombs) could "bend the rules" and make Smash fun, once again.

Lastly, no Smash game is balanced. Not 64, not Melee, not Brawl. They're all broken; they all have glitches, and Nintendo has this immutable fanbase that wants to **** every game they get their hands on, including the Mario Kart series (i.e. Snaking in MKDS). Until Smash's mechanics reach a point where EVERY exploit is finally eliminated (unbreakable chainthrowing, infinite loops, etc.), Smash will (unfairly) never be held as a fighting game.
That said, it's no less broken than other fighting games, and it's probably better than most if only because of its fast, simple, and intuitive controls (no input strings) and because of its ambition in offering the players a wide and balanced variety of fighting styles, strategies, and items.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #1336 on: January 02, 2009, 06:10:05 AM
No matches tonight......damn.



Well, to comment on the discussion, I do feel that every Smash game has improved.  Even if Brawl doesn't feel "perfectly satisfying" the way Melee did, I just can't argue with Super Dragon.

For sure each game has its own charm.  64 had more of an edge to its SFX, the only good Luigi, and of course the Metal Mario theme.  But in some ways it felt like a proof-of-concept in that 12 fighters and 9 stages is a pretty small game; thankfully the team/item/damage customization established near infinite replay value from day one.

Melee offered a "complete" package, despite being wrecked by tourneyfags, there wasn't a whole lot more you could ask for.  A lot of dream-come-true additions (including Bowser and F#$@!ING MEWTWO!), the trophy gallery for all the Nintendo history/fighter tips, Event, Adventure, and Stadium modes, and good ol' Super Sudden Death.

Brawl basically threw the kitchen sink into the package.  A few missteps (tripping, stickers, lack of Mewtwo, the fact that we have to hack to get custom stages online, or make use of scenery without absurd empty space requirements) came along the way, but the positive changes far outweigh the negatives.  I love the new aerial physics, the music collection alone is worth the game's price (even if it damn well should have had the Smash 64 Metal Mario theme), additions such as ZSS, Pit, and Ike are outstanding, and no matter how limited they are the Stage Builder and NWC still add a lot.  Plus damn near everything, the larger Adventure included, are 2-player cooperative.

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #1337 on: January 02, 2009, 06:18:06 AM
I take it people are still reeling from last night's marathon of Smash. XD

Either way, I'll be up all night so I'll play in a bit. Also, be sure to check out my post above and leave an opinion or two on it.



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Reply #1338 on: January 02, 2009, 06:20:35 AM
Yeah, I was adding that to my last post while you were typing.

I take it people are still reeling from last night's marathon of Smash. XD
I never thought I'd have more STAMINA than the most flamboyant PB. :P

Because nobody connected since my last stage batch, I'm still hoping to try "Dragon's Lair" online, if you're up for it.  Check the post above your discussion for the download.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1339 on: January 02, 2009, 06:36:05 AM
They're all broken; they all have glitches, and Nintendo has this immutable fanbase that wants to **** every game they get their hands on, including the Mario Kart series (i.e. Snaking in MKDS).

Thought I'd just comment on this, but saying that only the Nintendo fanbase exploit glitches is very biased and untrue.  A lot of gamers, as a whole, try to exploit every advantage that they can in order to win.  It's what makes Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 one of the most unbalanced games ever created. 

Also, regarding Snaking, the fault with that lies with the same fault I've had with Mario Kart since Double Dash came out, namely Item Gimping.  You could Snake in MK64 as well, but it didn't matter because the Items could still [tornado fang] you over and [tornado fang] you over royally.  If you were in 2nd place, you still had a chance to come back, except on courses like Rainbow Road, depending how far ahead the opponent was.  However, when Double Dash came along, 2nd place had little to NO chance without the help of 3rd-5th place getting the Items to screw over 1st place.  MKWii is a flawless example of the issue of Item Gimping.  When the programmers decided that 2nd place would be cursed with such items like Cloud AIDS, the game has a SERIOUS problem.  The items are the main problem with Mario Kart since Double Dash.  Snaking wouldn't have even been an issue, which they wouldn't have had to take away in MK Wii, and the Bikes wouldn't have the clear advantage that they do in MK Wii if the Items weren't so God Awful and pussified.  This is why no Mario Kart game will ever be as good as Mario Kart 64.  Ever.

Regarding Brawl, I think it's definitely the best out of the three Smash Bros.  The levels are simply awesome, the soundtrack to the game is hands down one of the best gaming soundtracks ever released, and the characters are very well balanced overall.  Granted, Snake's priority and strength and uncanny, but it's absolutely not unbeatable.  It's definitely not as bad as Sheik's insane speed and power in Melee.  Also, yes Metaknight has that cape glitch, but the majority of tournaments (if you actually go to them) will disqualify someone who exploits it.  Besides, you simply don't play someone who exploits that glitch, just like you don't play people who use the Cable, Sentinel, Etc. team in Marvel Vs. Capcom 2.  That's all there is to it.  My only real complaints with Brawl are slipping & the removal of characters.  If you're going to keep such Clonage as Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf, and Lucas, then there is no reason to get rid of Roy, Dr. Mario, and ESPECIALLY Mewtwo.  Yeah, I was sad when Little Mac, Krystal, Blues, and other characters I wanted in didn't make it, but seriously, I've gotten really good with at least 8 characters already, and there are still more I want to learn, so that honestly doesn't bother me in the slightest.  I'll just await the newbies in Super Smash Bros. Bitchslap, sometime in the Future on the Nintendo Ball Z.

It took me 6-7 years to finally get tired of playing Melee on a frequent basis, so god only knows how long it'll take me to get tired of Brawl, a game that is so vastly superior to Melee.  Except for the Dragoon pieces being against me, I have no issue with Brawl whatsoever.  I don't blame Brawl for the Lag.  That's Nintendo's fault more than the game itself.  Perhaps it'll be fixed in the future and perhaps it won't.  Either way, I'll still be playing it over at Lou's house and Online with you guys for a long long time now. 

At least until online Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram or online Mario Kart 64.  Then, I'm done with you all!   8D

I take it people are still reeling from last night's marathon of Smash. XD

LoL, no chance.  I just got finished watching The Two Towers, plus replying to this post!  I'll be right on as soon as I'm done!  :V

I never thought I'd have more STAMINA than the most flamboyant PB. :P

Haha, see above.   8)



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Reply #1340 on: January 02, 2009, 06:50:37 AM
LoL, no chance.  I just got finished watching The Two Towers, plus replying to this post!  I'll be right on as soon as I'm done!  :V
......
*taps foot impatiently*

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1341 on: January 02, 2009, 06:51:33 AM
......
*taps foot impatiently*

LoL, I'm attempting to copy over your Stages, and hope it doesn't destroy my Wii.



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Reply #1342 on: January 02, 2009, 06:52:51 AM
It won't.  Mark my words, I test every hacked stage before copying it to computer.

Besides, there's nothing hacked about these two.  Unless the parts limit is just that asanine, I hadn't checked.  But they SHOULD be legal, Dragon's Lair especially.  Destiny might be over seeings how I added an extra row of blocks for cleanliness.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1343 on: January 02, 2009, 06:55:46 AM
LoL, it froze when I tried to join.



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Reply #1344 on: January 02, 2009, 06:57:16 AM
PB, the stage is Dragon's Lair.  You have to play a round in it before connecting, or it doesn't work (you CAN call No Contest to speed things up).

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #1345 on: January 02, 2009, 07:10:38 AM
OK, so I'm ready.



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Reply #1346 on: January 02, 2009, 07:12:46 AM
Whoever picked Pictochat *WILL* die.  I hate that stage.  Nobody EVER has good music set to it, probably because besides Dr. Mario there isn't any.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #1347 on: January 02, 2009, 07:19:48 AM
So, this only works if Hypershell gets his choice of stage?



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Reply #1348 on: January 02, 2009, 07:23:12 AM
Yeah, and it's really not with me today.

Posted on: January 02, 2009, 01:21:01 AM
You know, I get when we disconnect because it's lagging like hell.  But *WHY* does an otherwise healthy match DC for no [tornado fang]ing reason?

(this is REALLY not my day...)

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Reply #1349 on: January 02, 2009, 07:34:35 AM
Fut the wuck was that? XD