Metroid Discussion Thread

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #675 on: September 05, 2010, 03:29:58 AM
Maybe fanboys around here are a little bit more annoying and common than the ones around there. I know very few "fair" gamers in real life, and have met very few as well.

...hell, I punched a guy in the face at Video Games Live because he wouldn't stop asking me if I liked mudkips.

....Really? Daaaaamn.

Yeah, different experiences I guess. I'm not saying certain gamers aren't total unreasonable fanboys. Hell, Lou deals with some customers like that at GameStop. But for the most part, I've mostly met the "middle" crowd in real life.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #676 on: September 05, 2010, 03:49:09 AM
....Really? Daaaaamn.

Yeah, different experiences I guess. I'm not saying certain gamers aren't total unreasonable fanboys. Hell, Lou deals with some customers like that at GameStop. But for the most part, I've mostly met the "middle" crowd in real life.
I think it's because of the console bias over here. People don't really know anything other than Sony around here. I've played with the oldies, but the big bias makes the old gamers become gigantic Nintendo/Sega fanboys for the most part, refusing to acknoledge any game that isn't on their system, while 99% of the gamer population around here just knows two games. PES and whatever wrestling game comes next. I've been called a "Star Wars nerd" for playing Halo. YES, Halo.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #677 on: September 05, 2010, 03:53:07 AM
Wow.  And here I thought I had a grasp of console fanboyism, but I never imagined the Sony/Microsoft rift was that deep.

....Really? Daaaaamn.

Yeah, different experiences I guess. I'm not saying certain gamers aren't total unreasonable fanboys. Hell, Lou deals with some customers like that at GameStop. But for the most part, I've mostly met the "middle" crowd in real life.
Lou works at GameStop?  I'm curious, does some manager with a whip/cattle prod threaten the employees if they do not ask every customer if they want every single item on the pre-order list?  Even if I've already pre-ordered something, they're still trying to sell me something else.  It gets annoying real quick.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #678 on: September 05, 2010, 03:59:24 AM
I think it's because of the console bias over here. People don't really know anything other than Sony around here. I've played with the oldies, but the big bias makes the old gamers become gigantic Nintendo/Sega fanboys for the most part, refusing to acknoledge any game that isn't on their system, while 99% of the gamer population around here just knows two games. PES and whatever wrestling game comes next. I've been called a "Star Wars nerd" for playing Halo. YES, Halo.

............  o-O

Yeaaaaah, I don't think it's even close to being that bad here in NYC.

Lou works at GameStop?  I'm curious, does some manager with a whip/cattle prod threaten the employees if they do not ask every customer if they want every single item on the pre-order list?  Even if I've already pre-ordered something, they're still trying to sell me something else.  It gets annoying real quick.

Oh, you don't know? Sometimes their jobs are on the line if they DON'T promote both Pre-orders or Game Informer.



Offline Flame

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Reply #679 on: September 05, 2010, 04:50:39 AM
I don't mind the game being Wii-remote only, but my one gripe with controls is how they handled the Grapple Beam.  They used a "switch" mentality rather than a "hold" mentality as pretty much every other Metroid game has done, which screwed me up a few times.  Further, initiating it requires first-person view, while there are a few times (mainly in the lava area) where keeping the Wii remote in that position will botch your landing.

I have mixed feelings about item authorization.  It works for anything potentially destructive.  Samus is joining a military operation, so she has to play by their rules.  They regulate weapons, as any organized outfit should.  And you certainly don't want to accidentally Power Bomb a survivor, or even a corpse that could have given you clues.  But the Varia Suit, Gravity Suit, and Space Jump?  They have ZERO destructive potential.  It makes no sense with them.  And shouldn't the Ice Beam be considered Samus's equivalent to the GF freeze gun?  Adam authorizes that for all troops when they're deployed, yet leaves Samus with the regular Power Beam.

But I can't really lay all of that at Adam's feet.  Recall, the only things Samus ever deactivated on Adam's say-so were Bombs, Missiles, and Power Bombs.  In other words, she of her own accord, was taking a pretty minimalist approach even before meeting with Adam, using no Ice/Wave/Plasma Beam, no Space Jump, no Screw Attack, no Varia/Gravity Suit, no Speed Booster, no Super Missile, and no Grapple Beam (although to be fair the opportunity for that one didn't really come up).  The one appearance of the playable Zero Suit falls into the same vein here; there was no necessity.  Apparently Samus just likes treating life-or-death situations as training, or something.

Majorly spoilerific story comments:
[spoiler]We could have stood some more specific closure as to the traitor.  It seems to be James, who got his at the hands of the Metroid Queen (the "missing" soldier would be the one that the game showed being tossed into lava with no witnesses).

But then, wasn't a shot fired while Adam was in the command room?  Yet when Samus retrieves his helmet, the flashback simply shows him running off in response to Samus meeting Melissa.  What happened there?  Further, Melissa herself met with a GF soldier.  But if James previously tried to kill her...what was going on?  And how could either he, or Adam, have gotten there already?  Or could it have been Anthony?  If so, what did they say to each other?

I'm also sensing some SERIOUS conflict of canon between this game and the existing Metroid continuity, especially Prime 3.  Other M clearly treats Mother Brain as not simply controlling the Metroids but the leader of all Pirates.  MP3, however, while it did not specifically reference Mother Brain, pretty much beat the player over the head with Aurora Unit references, including the Space Pirates capturing an Aurora which then functioned as a boss, and images of an "Aurora complex" that was very obviously Tourian.  The clear implication is that Mother Brain is in the same boat.  Further there are Space Pirate logs referencing a Pirate Command, and, if the Pirates cannot function without Mother Brain leading them, how could they have possibly resuscitated her after the original Metroid?  And why exactly does Other M treat the Space Pirates as being synonymous with Zebesians?  Zebes was a Chozo settling ground, to say nothing of Samus's freaking home, before the Pirates ever arrived there.  By the same token I find it difficult to believe that the Pirates survived the loss of Zebes once, but couldn't survive it again.  Why would any race capable of inter-planetary travel go extinct from the loss of one planet?

While it may not mesh perfectly with the series, the game on its own has a pretty great story.  I especially loved Ridley's appearance in this game.  Was epic in every sense, seeing Samus in shock, watching a rare instance where a "partner" tries to cover for her.  I was actually relieved at finding Anthony alive at the end; I felt a lot of sympathy for him.  I do kinda wish that something more could have been done about the GF jerks who actually supported the whole Bioweapon project, but I guess leaving them at large is kind of necessary for the lead-in to Fusion.

The ending of the game seems give the impression that this is a story first and a game second.  It's awkward that the "true" story is not revealed until after Queen Metroid, the last real fight before the credits.  And I use that term loosely, because she's a joke.  The only thing remotely challenging about her is dealing with the swarm of her kids; once that's done, she's cake.  Phantoon was much tougher, although the "extra" final boss being a rehash who authority-wise falls well below Ridley doesn't make the biggest bang in the world.  Was awesome nonetheless, though, I just feel that the game lacks a properly climactic final battle.[/spoiler]
I really have to agree with everything here.

[spoiler] The Ridley appearance reminded me of the Manga so much. Also, yes. the traitor thing was never closed up. Samus most likely never even figured out James was the deleter. He isnt listed as such under her profile for him after the game. just that she found him dead. Also, i never understood just HOW he died... I dont think it was the queen, cuz well, shes just way too big. that room doesnt look like the queen could access it. Im willing to bet Melissa did something. I mean, she IS a robot. and she DOES have super strength and that thing she did at the end. She could have overpowered him or something.

I wondered about the shot fired in the command room myself. They suddenly dropped that, and then showed Adam running off.

also, on the Space pirates, all because Zebes was blown up doesnt really mean anything if their homeworld is still there. I dont recall the federation ever having launched a full on attack there- unless Im forgetting something from prime 3. Samus just destroyed their Leviathan and went on her way, leaving them there.

On Phantoon however- I was actually quite satisfied with that. Well, more than with Metroid Queen anyway. Which felt really only like they were trying to say "hey look! its Metroid ll's final battle in 3D!!" and actually came out of NOWHERE. Tell me, when you saw from its point of view and saw it attack Ridley, was I the only one actually kinda expecting a repeat of Super Metroid's Mother Brain? I mean, given that Mellisa basically IS Mother Brain, and the main antagonist here, I would have actually assumed Id fight her in some sort of battle body. Having a queen in there doesnt make much sense either, wouldnt she have been in sector Zero with the OTHER metroids? Even if Zero was made for the new unfreezable ones, there would, if I was running that [parasitic bomb]- a sort of special area or sector set apart for the unaltered specimens. Which brings me to another point- all because they cant be frozen... um, so what? If I recall correctly, the Prime 1fission metroids, (the ones that split) I dont think they were affected by ice, were they? but forgetting even that- just take them out with Samus' regular weaponry. I mean, plasma beam seems to be quite effective, and in 3, the X ray visor let you outright just snipe their nucleus, for an instant kill. Its not like she couldnt have done it. Now if you told me they made Metroids invunerable to ALL weaponry, then thats another story.

Oh yeah. and the Space pirate/Zebesian deal. when i first heard her say "Its a Zebesian..." I went- "whoa, hold up now- theres a race called Zebesians? like there are space pirates and Chozos? Well why didnt I know this? As far as I know, only Chozo and random creatures and stuff lived there. Those look like robo space pirates more like."

and I sort of figured that was an error on their part.

I liked though, how after the game, you see that the federation cleaned up everything- including Nightmare and Ridley, which accounts for their appearance in Fusion
[/spoiler]

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #680 on: September 05, 2010, 05:13:23 AM
............  o-O

Yeaaaaah, I don't think it's even close to being that bad here in NYC.
It's because gaming just isn't well recognized around here, and there's absolutely no love for a few consoles.

For example, most stores have a tiny shelf of 360 titles, with very few of them. But they have whole displays will of PS2 titles. And they keep selling and selling and selling. The ridiculously high prices and the fact that renting games is illegal don't help much either.

See, the overall environment of people who think the Playstation was the first gaming console of all time leads old-school fanboys to go deeper and deeper into their assholism, becoming completely retarded classic gaming activists, refusing to play anything that isn't sprited or has a combo meter.

So on one side we have football-loving people who know nothing else but the sport and who basically just get what's popular, and know only PES as a game. Laugh at anyone playing any other kind of game.

On the other, we have fat kids in old Nintendo sweaters, shouting their love for whatever's "true gaming", stinking up the place with their bad breath and unwashed armpits and speaking in cliché japanese sentences, being useless retarded weeaboos. And refusing to play anything that doesn't fit their definition of "gaming".



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #681 on: September 05, 2010, 05:33:36 AM
Am I the only one who didn't like Prime 3 as much as the other two? Echoes isn't perfect by any means, but I still enjoyed it more than Corruption.

As far as continuity... I honestly get the impression that they're ignoring the Prime games when it comes to Other M. Let me put it this way... in basically every non-Prime Metroid, metroids are essentially invincible except when being frozen comes into the equation. In that context the fact that they can't be frozen is a pretty damn big deal. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #682 on: September 05, 2010, 05:42:25 AM
Am I the only one who didn't like Prime 3 as much as the other two? Echoes isn't perfect by any means, but I still enjoyed it more than Corruption.

As far as continuity... I honestly get the impression that they're ignoring the Prime games when it comes to Other M. Let me put it this way... in basically every non-Prime Metroid, metroids are essentially invincible except when being frozen comes into the equation. In that context the fact that they can't be frozen is a pretty damn big deal. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe I'm getting.
I think they consider the Primes canon, but a self-contained story that doesn't need references.

...kinda saddens me when you come to think of it, because the Primes showed how Metroid could be played in 3D. While Other M disregarded all of it, and although it was good, it wasn't as good as it could have been.



Offline Satoryu

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Reply #683 on: September 05, 2010, 06:20:42 AM
What are referred to as Zebesians in this game are called Zebesian Space Pirates in other games. Which I guess means they were produced on Zebes. They just chose to abbreviate it in this game for whatever reason. And about Metroids, it was always established that they were invulnerable to every non-ice weapon in the numbered games, though Power Bombs can also hurt them in Super. The ones in Prime are specifically called Tallon Metroids. And you can kill them with basically anything. I'm guessing Tallon Metroids weren't made properly or something. Kinda like the Mocktroids in Maridia.


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Offline Solar

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Reply #684 on: September 05, 2010, 06:26:23 AM
I think they consider the Primes canon, but a self-contained story that doesn't need references.

Well, Sakamoto said that, as great as they were, he didn't consider them real Metroid games. Interpret that however you want to.


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Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #685 on: September 05, 2010, 06:34:10 AM
Well, Sakamoto said that, as great as they were, he didn't consider them real Metroid games. Interpret that however you want to.
Where and when did he say that?

Considering they were both better and more Metroid-ish than Other M will ever be, this guy may be moving onto George Lucas territory.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #686 on: September 05, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
Am I the only one who didn't like Prime 3 as much as the other two? Echoes isn't perfect by any means, but I still enjoyed it more than Corruption.

Echoes >> Prime >>>> Corruption. Seriously. (All three however are high tier.) My opinion is insanely niche, but in reality, it's just reconfirmed every time I play a game out of the Prime series and either ask myself "Why am I not playing Echoes?" or marvel at the complexity of Echoes as I play through it.

If you were to ask me, Retro really just seemed to catch a bad case of Majora's Mask syndrome in regards to 2. The first one was a [tornado fang]ing landmark in video games no doubt, but because of that the second game got scrutinized to hell and back and eventually got pegged as the red headed stepchild for some of the weirdest reasons, even though for a sequel it was totally ingenious with its progression. A lot of people cite the backtracking and dark world as the greatest sources of headaches, but coming fresh off a replay of the game, I just can't see it, especially since Retro took great lengths to make the design challenging but not daunting.

I actually wanna talk a bit more about this too, since I find it amazing that people will praise Corruption over Echoes vehemently.



Offline Solar

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Reply #687 on: September 05, 2010, 06:46:33 AM
Where and when did he say that?

Considering they were both better and more Metroid-ish than Other M will ever be, this guy may be moving onto George Lucas territory.

An interview, but can't say I remember the source, sorry ~__~ Or maybe I'm misremembering the quote, I dunno, but it's not impossible that they don't consider them canon to the story.

Still, he really praises them as being great games, just different.


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Offline Kieran

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Reply #688 on: September 05, 2010, 07:37:36 AM
I actually like Echoes better than Corruption, myself.  So no, Jericho, you aren't alone.

As for Other M, the more I play it, the more I realize that storywise, it's nothing but a wholesale ripoff of Fusion.  It's definitely getting lower on my list of favorite Metroid games.

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Offline Flame

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Reply #689 on: September 05, 2010, 07:44:28 AM
Echoes dual world problem wouldnt have been as bad if they didnt ALSO give Samus Limited Ammo for her beam weapons. I mean, thats kind of unheard of, that I know of. And in a game like Echoes, that can get tedious with having to track and backtrack through the light and shadow worlds, it's frustrating.

However Ive noticed this much. its only frustrating and tedious at the beginning. About halfway in, it gets much  better. and Sanctuary Fortress has got to be one of the most beautiful things ever.

But I still think Prime is at the top of all 3. Echoes is nice when yoiu get used to it, but you shouldnt have to get used to it, and the limited beam ammo was pretty ridiculous. (at least you could still charge up to fire uncharged shots)

Corruption was nice too, but felt a bit too linear compared to the other 2. Although it has some really nice and varied scenery, and I loved that Steampunk Skytown Elysia.
I also dislike the PED suit. it looks fine normally, but once it gets corrupted and turns blue, it just doesnt look as appealing anymore. Although, that probably IS the point. You wouldnt look too pretty either if you were being consumed by a glowing blue radioactive, highly mutagenic compound.

Quote
As for Other M, the more I play it, the more I realize that storywise, it's nothing but a wholesale ripoff of Fusion.  It's definitely getting lower on my list of favorite Metroid games.
Oh come on, Its not THAT bad. So all because it has a few cameos and a narrated story, its a fusion rip off? (and because its on a space station?)

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Solar

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Reply #690 on: September 05, 2010, 07:50:47 AM
Echoes dual world problem wouldnt have been as bad if they didnt ALSO give Samus Limited Ammo for her beam weapons. I mean, thats kind of unheard of, that I know of. And in a game like Echoes, that can get tedious with having to track and backtrack through the light and shadow worlds, it's frustrating.

You think so? I remember rarely ever being in need of ammo.


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Offline Kieran

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Reply #691 on: September 05, 2010, 07:54:03 AM
No, Flame, not because it has a few cameos and a narrated story.  But because the story is essentially a rewrite of Fusion's without the Samus-X.

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Commander Shepard: *stares blankly at a video of scantily clad asari dancers* ...What kind of hotel is this?
Liara T'Soni: It is a luxury resort with an... exotic edge.  Azure is slang for a part of the asari body in some places on Illium.
Shepard: Where?
Liara: The lower reaches, near the bottom.
Shepard: I meant, "where on the asari body?"
Liara: So did I.


Offline Fxeni

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Reply #692 on: September 05, 2010, 08:10:59 AM
No, Flame, not because it has a few cameos and a narrated story.  But because the story is essentially a rewrite of Fusion's without the Samus-X.
Agreed on some aspects, especially as far as Sector 0 is concerned. Pretty sure it creates some inconsistencies in Fusion too, if you think about it.



Offline Kieran

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Reply #693 on: September 05, 2010, 08:22:02 AM
Oh yeah, big time.

The Other Side
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Commander Shepard: *stares blankly at a video of scantily clad asari dancers* ...What kind of hotel is this?
Liara T'Soni: It is a luxury resort with an... exotic edge.  Azure is slang for a part of the asari body in some places on Illium.
Shepard: Where?
Liara: The lower reaches, near the bottom.
Shepard: I meant, "where on the asari body?"
Liara: So did I.


Offline Flame

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Reply #694 on: September 05, 2010, 08:23:14 AM
How does it make any inconsistencies in fusion?
the Sector 0 thing was no doubt intentionally a nod to Fusion, but the story felt different to me. :|

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


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Reply #695 on: September 05, 2010, 08:29:07 AM
It's true that Prime is unusual in having Metroids vulnerable to non-Ice Beam weaponry.  Even so, it's the most effective way, sans Power Bombs, of dealing with them.  Story-wise, I'd see a cold-proof Metroid as perhaps not indestructible, but EXTREMELY durable.  Surely a tremendous threat.  And, yeah, I'd buy SR388 Metroids being more durable than Tallon Metroids.  You never know what the Space Pirates can screw up, just look at their Morph Ball research.

As far as "ranking" the Metroid Prime games goes, I too am annoyed by Prime 2's ammo system.  Sure, ammo is bountiful enough, but the fact that ammo for one given beam ONLY appears when using its opposite gets very, very annoying.  In addition, it storywise feels almost like one giant side-quest.  You can go from Prime 1 to Prime 3, and really not miss anything; the Aether conflict isn't terribly relevant to the Phazon story arc.  It just covers Dark Samus for those who didn't score a 100% completion in Prime 1, and that's about it.  So, while I'll put 2 at the bottom, I have a hard time choosing between 1 and 3.  3 has the more immersive presentation and a larger scale storyline, but 1 better offers that "isolation/exploration" feel that classic Metroid is known for.  Depends on what you're looking for in the game, I think.

What are referred to as Zebesians in this game are called Zebesian Space Pirates in other games. Which I guess means they were produced on Zebes.
That excuses the naming ambiguity, but it does not excuse the fact that Other M treats the destruction of Zebes as equaling the extinction of the Space Pirates.

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I suspected...

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Offline STM

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Reply #696 on: September 05, 2010, 08:38:44 AM
14 hours play time and 100% collection later, STM has laid Other M to rest (...Hard mode? Yeah. No.)

Let's get this [parasitic bomb] going:

[spoiler=Delicious bite-sized bullet points for happy enjoyment reading]+Samus' characterization. After hearing so much bitching about her panic attack at seeing Ridley back and finally seeing the scene, her reaction was as it should have been: she was convinced she finally nailed the bastard on Zebes... and here he is... again, never mind she has PTSD from the Zebes extermination mission and the death of the Baby Metroid.

+Atmosphere. At least early on, the game had an air that kept me on my toes and awaiting some big bad mother hubbard from coming out and tearing a superfluous new hole in my rear end. Not so much later on.

+Ridley, Phantoon, Nightmare. Easily the best bosses in the game... which is sad because they're all returners. None of the new bosses were any good.

+Gameplay. Very tight 2D and 3D. While controls could have been better, everything in the game played very nicely. Honestly, I didn't use FPS view a lot unless I wanted to missile/super missile the [parasitic bomb] out of something because of how clunky it could get in battles.

+Adam. You damn well know why. He died a man's death.

+Lil' Birdie. It's so cute and cuddly and--OH MY GOD IT ATE MY SPLEEN.

-------------------

-Music. Generic atmospheric crap; there was no "Phendrana Drifts" or "Maridia" like music. None of the boss themes (aside from Ridley, obviously) really stood out either.

-Story. Look, I like that it was exploring Samus' psyche, I really do. The mission itself was also nice, if bordering Fusion a little. However, the Deleter plot being dropped cold and then the big plot twist of "The GF recreated Mother Brain's A.I. to make a unit containing Space Pirates and Uber Metroids within the military? AND the AI was put into an android that looks like a 15 year old girl? AND it learned to feel and have a soul? AND it grew to hate humans? THIS CAN'T GO WRONG!"

But it did. The last scenes, while sad, did nothing emotionally. She died... oh well. I didn't feel anything wrong because of how abrupt the revelations were and the true Madeline being introduced so late that the player can't give two shits that she treated MB like a daughter. Adam's death was far greater because he was man enough to enter a section with invincible metroids, shoot [parasitic bomb] up and blow up the section so he could take them all to Hell with him.

Otherwise, it really treaded closely to Fusion, for better or for worse.

-Final Boss. Really? I like the long-needed Metroid II throwback, but come on. The Metroid part was just annoying because if you weren't fast enough to dispatch them quickly, you get mobbed and murdered. After that, Queen Metroid was no more threatening than a normal enemy. The last phase was even sillier as, while you're expected to Power Bomb her from the inside (Metroid II players will know this instinctively), others will be confused as to what the hell is going on because you're never told, after a whole game of hand holding, that you can now use them. The game only tells you AFTER the credits roll.

-Length. Look, I know Metroid games are traditionally known for not being long, and maybe this is a spoil point from the Prime series, but this game felt awfully short. Right now, people are attempting sub-three hour runs on the game. While this isn't a huge deal with stuff like Zero Mission, Super or Fusion, the sad truth that this is a really low mark for a modern title, especially one gunning at $50. Maybe this is a problem with the state of gaming, I don't know, different topic, NEXT.

-First Person perspective. Aside from missile use, the set up felt clunky. I do appreciate the slow down that happens when switching into it to allow time for orientation, but in frenzied battles, like against the Metroids or even the Power Bomb door guardians, it felt more like a hindrance than an aid. This is also true for Phantoon. The more frantic battles get, the less usefulness it has unless the enemy takes a breather from attacking. By end game, the Plasma Beam and Screw Attack will be the main arsenal murdering every non-boss enemy, so it also becomes useless too.

-Scan scenes. Some were pretty annoying, like the blood one because of no true indicator of what to be on the lookout for at time or it being covered up too well (the green blood one, for example).[/spoiler]



Offline Mirby

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Reply #697 on: September 05, 2010, 08:40:16 AM
Umm... it's [spoiler] not [spoilers]

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
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Offline STM

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Reply #698 on: September 05, 2010, 08:41:06 AM
Damn thing submitted on its own. Fixed.



Offline Mirby

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Reply #699 on: September 05, 2010, 08:42:35 AM
I liked reading it; nice summary. ^.^

OH [parasitic bomb] IM USING LINK AND I ACCIDENTALLY FINAL SMASHED A CUCCO OH GOD HELP
Just enjoy yourself, don't complain about everything