Topic: ZX: Model's X and Z were not made from X and Zero

[OniXera]

There, I typed it. Model's X and Z were not created from the "souls" (cyber elves) of X and Zero, but instead were made from Model W's source at the crash location of Ragnarok, by Ciel.

Ciel says it herself in the translated script of ZX, when you as Model ZX traverse to a cave-like area researching details about Model W. The source data/cyber elves/souls for the legendary heroes X and Zero could not be found, so the power used to created Model W was also used to create Model's X and Z.

"Well, why aren't they evil?" You ask. Who ever said something fabricated needed to have the same personality of the original? All it takes is a genius with the ability to create to make a powerful cyber elf from Model W's source, and then create a biometal from it. Ciel was the one who originally fabricated X, wasn't she? We got that dastardly reploid known as Copy X from it.

Ciel never met with nor conversed with the original X before he left in Zero 2. His cyber elf data was long gone before the end of Zero 4. Zero, nor his cyber elf, were ever found, as is shown after the credits in Zero 4. Ciel, however, is able to easily replicate ever single reploid she ever created or studied. To say that every BioMetal is actually a fabrication created by Ciel isn't such a long shot, after all, the personalities of the biometal's do not match up with their Zero counterparts, nor do they show any signs of having memories. Like Inafune did in Zero 2, there would have been a major revelation if the BioMetal's were actually created by the legendary heroes.

And, no. No amount of fanservice from any Complete Works book or Soundtrack insert changes this. Why? Because it is simply fanservice. Other works such as radio-screenplays and written books do not count either. Why? Because they aren't part of the canon. Interviews with Inafune do count, however, as he is the original creator and the head of Inte Creates.

And, also, don't judge on post count. After all, one of your beloved members of 6000+ posts asked me to come here.

[Zan]

Model's X and Z were not created from the "souls" (cyber elves) of X and Zero, but instead were made from Model W's source at the crash location of Ragnarok, by Ciel.

Prairie said tamashi, meaning soul/spirit. Livemetals are fragments containing the soul/spirits of legendary heroes. In the English game they instead used the easily confused synonym of "consciousness".

The source data/cyber elves/souls for the legendary heroes X and Zero could not be found, so the power used to created Model W was also used to create Model's X and Z.

That's not what the game said, at all.

????: Biometal Report Classification #555913 * Chosen One * This message is intended for the chosen one who will one day find the Biometal I have created. In order to fight against Model W, which has been causing the Maverick outbreaks, I have constructed Model X and Model Z with the data I have obtained on ancient heroes. There is still so much I don't understand... And I was forced to use the research on Model W as a basis for constructing the other two models. In other words, the ones with the potential to use Model X and Z, are the same ones with the potential to unleash Model W. As a chosen one, you have the power to save or destroy the world. I can only hope you use the power for good and that you will decide to guide the people to a bright future.

Specifically, she did have access to the data on Legendary Heroes, the "data" being their soul/spirit.  The one thing she did not understand were the workings of the Livemetal's R.O.C.K. system in regards to the chosen ones.

His cyber elf data was long gone before the end of Zero 4.

X is alive and well in Cyber-Elf form, and even if he wasn't, being completely dead never stopped anybody in this series from resurrecting.

Zero, nor his cyber elf, were ever found, as is shown after the credits in Zero 4.

The ZERO-series can only account for two years after the ending of ZERO4. Not one hundred years after ZERO4. Considering the original "Zero" is happily trying to kill people in Area N, that statement is flawed by default.

nor do they show any signs of having memories

I specifically recall them telling me of when they fought against that man that created Ragnarok hundreds of years ago. I also recall them saying only the memory of the time after their creation was erased.

And, no. No amount of fanservice from any Complete Works book or Soundtrack insert changes this. Why? Because it is simply fanservice. Other works such as radio-screenplays and written books do not count either. Why? Because they aren't part of the canon. Interviews with Inafune do count, however, as he is the original creator and the head of Inte Creates.

Funny how that works, the company that makes the game disagrees with this.

Oh and Inafune is neither the head nor an employee of IntiCreates.

[Tickle Buffalo]

And, also, don't judge on post count.

You need way more posts before you're allowed to make requests like that, sorry.


I don't make the rules, don't blame me.

[OniXera]

And I was forced to use the research on Model W as a basis for constructing the other two models.

"Forced". Let me direct you to this word. If Ciel created Model W from scratch, now why did she have to use her research on Model W to created Biometal's Z and X? This makes no sense and doesn't follow simple logic. If Ciel was able to create W from scratch, then she should have been able to do the same for X and Z.

Specifically, she did have access to the data on Legendary Heroes, the "data" being their soul/spirit.  The one thing she did not understand were the workings of the Livemetal's R.O.C.K. system in regards to the chosen ones.

No, I wouldn't designate "data" as "soul/spirit". If Ciel did have this, she would have never of created Copy X. After all, data on X from the Maverick and Elf War's was available as far back as Zero 2.

He's still alive. Vile's Incident shows him. And being completely dead never stopped anybody in this series from resurrecting.

I don't take this as truth, as Vile's Incident is just fanservice.

The ZERO-series can only account for two years after the ending of ZERO4. Not one hundred years after ZERO4. Considering the original "Zero" is happily trying to kill people in Area N, that statement is flawed by default.

We are not talking about Omega here, do not try to steer this somewhere else.

I specifically recall them telling me how they fought against that man that created Ragnarok hundreds of years ago.

I specifically remember how that conversation was extremely lacking in details.

Funny how that works, the company that makes the game disagrees with this.

Oh, is this right? And can you back this?

[HyperSonicEXE]

I don't know whether we should blame ourselves or Capcom for translation messing with our understanding of the canon.

Do we care too much, or do they care too little? There are plenty of other series of games out there, and they don't usually have this kind of problem. For as much as Metroid has skipped around, it has only taken very minimal changes to maintain a fairly solid base canon.

The closest thing to the Mega Mess is the Legend of Zelda series.

EDIT: I'm already refuting the follow-up post in my mind (i.e. it's that easy), but I'll let Zan have at it.

[Flame]

Yes, I asked you to come here.

Anyway. first off, the soundtrack is not fanservice, they deliberately added the drama tracks to expand on what they had in game. Phantom WAS originally just a bonus with no story relevance. the Drama tracks expanded upon that, and made him story relevant.

also, how can you say their personalities dont match? Model X reacts to Vent and Ailes bravery in protecting Prairie even thouh they didnt even know her. That is definitely an X trait.

Model Z is distant, and self sacrificial, as well as cold logical (so to speak)

Model P is all mysterious phrases and clever dialogue. "in the end he drowned in his own power... What a fitting end for one who desired it so badly..."

and so on.

plus they do have memories, they directly reference the battle against Weil 200 years ago. Model H references it when you defeat Hivolt.

also, prairie mentions the "consciousness of legendary heroes" "Souls" in the japanese version.

ad complete wors is not fanservice, it is a compilation of the artwork accumulated from the game. most of it is used ingame, and some of it is from the game's development. it has interviews with Inticreates themselves.

and it was area F (I think) it was the fozen lake, not a underground cave.

once again, X did not go away in Z2, he is in Z3. he is an integral part of the story in Z3, protecting resistance base when Weil uses Omega with the Dark Elf to brainwash all the reploids on earth. X appears when resistance soldiers attack Zero and Ciel, and disables Weils control, setting up a protection around the base. He gives the the coordinates fof Weil's base at the end, as well. He is also present when you defeat Copy X, noting that Copy X was used by Weil. He also tells Ciel the truth about Zero and Omega. (the fact that Omega is in possession of Zero's body, and Zero's current body is a copy of his original one. )

in Z4, Zero died. thats it. he died. but his Soul/cyber elf, ended up in Cyberspace, along with X and Phantom, and then later, the retconned 3 remaining guardians as well.

Ciel devoted herself to finding Zero, and studied Weils area of expertise, which is reploid resurrection when Model W was found and she sealed the core, she made X, Z, H,L,F, and P. using Weil's techniques of ressurection, she extrcted their souls from Cyberspace, and revived them as Biometals. what she did do, and you are right about this, is she created them using the data she had gained from studying the Model W fragment, which is, the R.O.C.K. system. (MEGA system in the localized version) she used the biometal technology gleamed from W, to create the Biometal "bodies". but they do have their original souls in them.

Posted on: October 10, 2009, 09:47:38 PMAlso, Ciel did not create Model W. This man did.

[OniXera]

Yes, I asked you to come here.

Anyway. first off, the soundtrack is not fanservice, they deliberately added the drama tracks to expand on what they had in game. Phantom WAS originally just a bonus with no story relevance. the Drama tracks expanded upon that, and made him story relevant.

No, if it was fanservice, it stays as fanservice.

also, how can you say their personalities dont match? Model X reacts to Vent and Ailes bravery in protecting Prairie even thouh they didnt even know her. That is definitely an X trait.

If I remember correctly, so did Model A. And, no, that is not a trait of X. If X had wanted to protect them, it would've been a trait of X.

Model Z is distant, and self sacrificial, as well as cold logical (so to speak)

Model P is all mysterious phrases and clever dialogue. "in the end he drowned in his own power... What a fitting end for one who desired it so badly..."

and so on.

And Ciel created the Big 4.

plus they do have memories, they directly reference the battle against Weil 200 years ago. Model H references it when you defeat Hivolt.

also, prairie mentions the "consciousness of legendary heroes" "Souls" in the japanese version.

Hm, if I was Ciel I could easily reference that battle myself. After all, Zero survives the battle with Omega after the Guardians sacrifice themselves.

ad complete wors is not fanservice, it is a compilation of the artwork accumulated from the game. most of it is used ingame, and some of it is from the game's development. it has interviews with Inticreates themselves.

No, that is clearly a work of fanservice.

and it was area F (I think) it was the fozen lake, not a underground cave.

Located underground.

once again, X did not go away in Z2, he is in Z3. he is an integral part of the story in Z3, protecting resistance base when Weil uses Omega with the Dark Elf to brainwash all the reploids on earth. X appears when resistance soldiers attack Zero and Ciel, and disables Weils control, setting up a protection around the base. He gives the the coordinates fof Weil's base at the end, as well. He is also present when you defeat Copy X, noting that Copy X was used by Weil. He also tells Ciel the truth about Zero and Omega. (the fact that Omega is in possession of Zero's body, and Zero's current body is a copy of his original one. )

Yes, but X's armour is destroyed in Z2.

in Z4, Zero died. thats it. he died. but his Soul/cyber elf, ended up in Cyberspace, along with X and Phantom, and then later, the retconned 3 remaining guardians as well.

Yes, he dies. The cyber elf/soul idea is complete theory.

Ciel devoted herself to finding Zero, and studied Weils area of expertise, which is reploid resurrection when Model W was found and she sealed the core, she made X, Z, H,L,F, and P. using Weil's techniques of ressurection, she extrcted their souls from Cyberspace, and revived them as Biometals. what she did do, and you are right about this, is she created them using the data she had gained from studying the Model W fragment, which is, the R.O.C.K. system. (MEGA system in the localized version) she used the biometal technology gleamed from W, to create the Biometal "bodies". but they do have their original souls in them.

This method of "resurrection", if you can call it this, dates all the way back to Wily. It is merely when you keep backups and copies of the original, Sigma did it as well. It's a clever way of trying to explain the boss rush's, but it doesn't mean it is some explicit plot device.

Also, everything right there sound way to convient. Why didn't she just extract Zero's "soul" from cyberspace and place him in another body? Why didn't she just do that for the original X? Why not the Big 4 as well?

Also, Ciel did not create Model W. This man did.

Ah, I forgot about that a--hole. But, hey, I never deied that Model W wasn't created from a "soul". After all, I already knew that Model W was created by parts of Weil and Ragnarok. And since Weil was human, there is no way his "soul" could become data. That's the only truth I see here, all the rest are fabrications created by Ciel.

[Zan]

I don't know whether we should blame ourselves or Capcom for translation messing with our understanding of the canon.

This is not translation messing with out understanding, rather it can be defined as quite a few negative things with regard to the psyche of certain fans.

"Forced". Let me direct you to this word. If Ciel created Model W from scratch, now why did she have to use her research on Model W to created Biometal's Z and X? This makes no sense and doesn't follow simple logic. If Ciel was able to create W from scratch, then she should have been able to do the same for X and Z.

Albert created Livemetal Model V.

Ciel needed Livemetal Model V as a basis to create Livemetal of her own.

How does that not make sense?

No, I wouldn't designate "data" as "soul/spirit". If Ciel did have this, she would have never of created Copy X. After all, data on X from the Maverick and Elf War's was available as far back as Zero 2.

The soul is data, we're dealing with robots. The soul is a Cyber-Elf is a program is data.

To the latter, I'll remind you of a few simple facts.

-RockmanX was sealing the Dark Elf at the time.
-RockmanX was tired of fighting.
-A regular Repliroid body is significantly different from Livemetal.

I specifically remember how that conversation was extremely lacking in details.

Model H: Hmph. Those humans we fought so hard to protect hundreds of years ago have been lulled into a false sense of security by the empty promise of peace. But I still believe our fight had meaning.

Model P: It is our destiny across the ages to protect the world of Man. Let us once again become humanity's blade for striking down evil.

fanservice

Everything is fanservice, no exceptions.

Oh, is this right? And can you back this?

Seeing as how the people that made the games also made the drama tracks and book, do you even need to ask?

The burden of proof is on your end, not mine.

And Ciel created the Big 4.

She didn't. She wasn't even alive at the time. Her mother wasn't even alive at the time.

[Night]

Ciel never met with nor conversed with the original X before he left in Zero 2.

derrrrr

[OniXera]

derrrrr

"Told".

[Flame]

No, if it was fanservice, it stays as fanservice.

 the Drama tracks ae not fanservice but expansions things they later decide to improve, and or add to the story. by that logic, things such as expansion pacts and DLs for games are as well, since they are intended to expand content.

If I remember correctly, so did Model A. And, no, that is not a trait of X. If X had wanted to protect them, it would've been a trait of X.

X Cant really do much when he's a floating head, now can he.

And Ciel created the Big 4.

if you mean the Big 4's biometals, yes. If you mean the Big 4 themselves, no. theyve been around since before she was even born.

Hm, if I was Ciel I could easily reference that battle myself. After all, Zero survives the battle with Omega after the Guardians sacrifice themselves.

She does not know the intimate details that the biometals know.

No, that is clearly a work of fanservice.

then why is it called a "SOURCE" book

Yes, but X's armour is destroyed in Z2.

X has not touched that body since he sealed Dark elf the previous century. X sacrificed his body to seal dark elf. Half of Dark Elf is within his body, and half was within the giant sphere behind it.

Yes, he dies. The cyber elf/soul idea is complete theory.

X begs to disagree.

This method of "resurrection", if you can call it this, dates all the way back to Wily. It is merely when you keep backups and copies of the original, Sigma did it as well. It's a clever way of trying to explain the boss rush's, but it doesn't mean it is some explicit plot device.

A replid is vastly different than a robot from the classic series. they are human enough to have details that cannot simply be copied. hence why the only was a reploid can be resurrected Legally in the X series is if their control chip is still intact. if it is not, then you need to preform a DNA resurrection, which is highly illegal.

in the Zero/ZX series, with the discovery of Reploid cyber elf souls, it makes the process much easier than using their DNA.

Also, everything right there sound way to convient. Why didn't she just extract Zero's "soul" from cyberspace and place him in another body? Why didn't she just do that for the original X? Why not the Big 4 as well?

for gameplay reasons.

[OniXera]

This is not translation messing with out understanding, rather it can be defined as quite a few negative things with regard to the psyche of certain fans.

Albert created Livemetal Model V.

Ciel needed Livemetal Model V as a basis to create Livemetal of her own.

How does that not make sense?

The soul is data, we're dealing with robots. The soul is a Cyber-Elf is a program is data.

To the latter, I'll remind you of a few simple facts.

-RockmanX was sealing the Dark Elf at the time.
-RockmanX was tired of fighting.
-A regular Repliroid body is significantly different from Livemetal.

It does make sense, but it doesn't mean they biometal's incorperate the souls of the legendary heroes.

If X was so tired of fighting, as he states in Z1, then why would he comply to being a biometal? Why would he help Vent and Aile? This contradicts his personality.

Model H: Hmph. Those humans we fought so hard to protect hundreds of years ago have been lulled into a false sense of security by the empty promise of peace. But I still believe our fight had meaning.

Model P: It is our destiny across the ages to protect the world of Man. Let us once again become humanity's blade for striking down evil.

Everything is fanservice, no exceptions.

Fanservice =/= canon.

And Ciel clearly knew about that battle and protection, after all, she created Copy X, the head of Neo Arcadia.

Seeing as how the people that made the games also made the drama tracks and book, do you even need to ask?

The burden of proof is on your end, not mine.

Seeing as the books were made by Capcom, and not Inte Creates, I see them as fanservice. After all, they tried to sneak in some X8 to the canon by mentioning the Orbital Elevator, which is clearly not canon.
[/quote]

Posted on: October 11, 2009, 04:15:50

 the Drama tracks ae not fanservice but expansions things they later decide to improve, and or add to the story. by that logic, things such as expansion pacts and DLs for games are as well, since they are intended to expand content.

By that logic the Pokemon Special Manga is canon. >.>

X Cant really do much when he's a floating head, now can he.if you mean the Big 4's biometals, yes. If you mean the Big 4 themselves, no. theyve been around since before she was even born. She does not know the intimate details that the biometals know.

The biometals reveal no intimate details, if you've already forgotten. And no, I did not mean them, themselves.

then why is it called a "SOURCE" book

Because Capcom wished for sales.

X has not touched that body since he sealed Dark elf the previous century. X sacrificed his body to seal dark elf. Half of Dark Elf is within his body, and half was within the giant sphere behind it.

If he had assimilated with that body, had half the Dark Elf not been inside, he would have still been alive.

X begs to disagree.

X, there, is also a hologram produced by his cyberelf.

A replid is vastly different than a robot from the classic series. they are human enough to have details that cannot simply be copied. hence why the only was a reploid can be resurrected Legally in the X series is if their control chip is still intact. if it is not, then you need to preform a DNA resurrection, which is highly illegal.

A robot in the classic series is a robot. A Reploid is a replica based on the design of X. Zero was neither, so his constant "resurrections" are a mystery.

in the Zero/ZX series, with the discovery of Reploid cyber elf souls, it makes the process much easier than using their DNA.
for gameplay reasons.

However, when a cyber elf is used, it dies.

[Flame]

"Told".

theres also this.

[OniXera]

theres also this.

That's purely visual. I don't see any talking occuring.

[Irgendein]

After all, they tried to sneak in some X8 to the canon by mentioning the Orbital Elevator, which is clearly not canon.

...and just how isn't it?

[OniXera]

...and just how isn't it?

...You can't be serious, can you?

I'm a X-X5 fan. X6-8 weren't made with direction from Inafune, although Z1 was changed slightly to match up with X6. Doesn't change X giving Zero his Long Sword, which Zero did not use in X6.

[Irgendein]

...You can't be serious, can you?

I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff, so yes, I am, actually.

[Night]

I can't believe this thread is actually serious!

[OniXera]

I can't believe this thread is actually serious!

And I can't believe it's not butter.

If you're just going to say things like that, please leave. What I believe to be canon differs from what you think, because I don't accept every small thing Capcom craps out of its backside as canon, just because they wish to make a cheap buck.

I stopped taking Capcom canon seriously when M.Bison appeared in SF4.

[Tickle Buffalo]

Yeah see you claim you don't take it seriously, and yet you made this thread. Not buyin' it, bro.

[OniXera]

Yeah see you claim you don't take it seriously, and yet you made this thread. Not buyin' it, bro.

I was asked to create this thread, don't look at me.

I see myself as right, but I'm not going to sit here and duke it out with a bunch of close minded people. Specially ones who see X6-8, the 3 worst MegaMan games out there, as canon. So, is Battle and Chase canon too now? Let's throw in some RockMan RockMan too.

[Tickle Buffalo]

I don't think canon works the way you think it works.

[Flame]

Guys, guys, stop it.

Also, X6-8 are canon. Inafune does not like X6, but he accepted it, deciding that more could be done with the story than ending at 5. (which is a terrible ending point.)

He also was involved in Axl's conception.

Battle and Chase is canon. Just as canon as the Gameboy Megaman games, Xtreme 1, and Xtreme 2. all because you dont like them doesnt mean that makes them non canon.

Rockman Rockman is a remake. just like MHX. what they did, is include "what if" scenarios, which are mind you, entirely optional. the main Megaman story is just what it used to be. all they did, was change the "Wily used to be Light's assistant" part, back to the japanese Megaman 1's story, where Wily never worked with Light at all.

[OniXera]

Guys, guys, stop it.

Also, X6-8 are canon. Inafune does not like X6, but he accepted it, deciding that more could be done with the story than ending at 5. (which is a terrible ending point.)

He also was involved in Axl's conception.

Battle and Chase is canon. Just as canon as the Gameboy Megaman games, Xtreme 1, and Xtreme 2. all because you dont like them doesnt mean that makes them non canon.

Rockman Rockman is a remake. just like MHX. what they did, is include "what if" scenarios, which are mind you, entirely optional. the main Megaman story is just what it used to be. all they did, was change the "Wily used to be Light's assistant" part, back to the japanese Megaman 1's story, where Wily never worked with Light at all.

Ahem, X6 can be claimed to be canon, but noy X7 and 8.

I liked the Gameboy games and Xtreme games, but they fit into the story somewhat.

I'm aware they are remakes, but they mess up the story.

And I am well aware of what canon is, when a series of event happens one after the other.

[Tickle Buffalo]

And why are X7 and X8 not canon?