Topic: Was Copy X really evil?

[Blackhook]

That was after Zero 1.
In Zero 1 it was how Saber said.

[Zan]

Didn't Phantom run into Cyber-elf X as a ghost?

Only after Copy-X Mk2 was destroyed and Zero had already done battle with Phantom in Cyber Space. At the end of X and Phantom's conversation, Zero took down what seems like Omega form 2.

[marshmallow man]

I see Copy X as a sympathetic villain. Created to fill some incredibly large shoes, but with little direction on what being the legendary hero actually requires. A great responsibility rests on his shoulders, literally the weight of the world, and he essentially tries his best to fulfill the humans' expectations of himself and prove himself against the backdrop of a legend. He tries his best. Human opinion is a large influence on Copy X, as well as the Big 4, and the Judges. Their very credo puts forth that a repliroid's duty is humanity's helper, guardian and servant. In a way, the repliroid lower and higher classes are all secondhand citizens, one turned upon the other and all for the sake of humanity.

Copy X is convincing not because he is a magnificent liar and manipulator like Sigma or Weil, but because he honestly believes his own rhetoric. His belief that reploids are created to serve and protect humans in all they do, including making the ultimate sacrifice when required. Even though reploids have souls, thoughts and feelings every bit as legitimate as a human's, even love and family relationships, they do not have the human lifespan which eventually removes them from the world, making way for further generations. In that respect, without the means to expand the nation's capacity or some predator (Irregulars) or other condition under which to terminate repliroids, the population level of repliroids could easily become a steep problem and must be carefully managed in accordance with what they can support. There's no easy way to go about how to curb an excessive population. Destroying the oldest models is a start, but if that isn't enough, there's always those with misdemeanors, those whose initial purpose has been completed, or who have displeased the humans in some minor way. It shouldn't be surprising that pencil pushers, petty laborers, odd eccentrics living on the fringe of society and the like aren't necessarily favored, and therefore treated as lower class by some pampered humans, even before energy crisis time.  Perhaps, the conjecture goes, they can serve their country best with their own deaths. Their sacrifices allows others, humans and repliroids, room to live. Order is maintained, at the cost of the minority's rights. A hard solution to a complex problem. Not just, not fair, but what he felt must be done, he is a proud hero in his own mind for making the tough call and standing by it to protect the peace ideal. During Z1, anyway.

Big 4 believe Copy X to be a revived version of the real X (since he vanished to seal the Darkelf in Yggrdrasil). Harpuia follows Copy-X MKII back to Neo Arcadia even though Zero says right on the scene that this X is a dublicate and not the real one. Makes me wonder why the real X never bothered to appear before the Guardians in the meantime and inform them of his copy's evil ways.

I wonder if maybe it wouldn't matter had he tried to contact them during Z1. It wouldn't change that Copy X is still their boss, and was doing what was best for humanity at the time. The Big 4 detest the notion of joining with any anti-Neo Arcadia group, or becoming traitors to the establishment. Turning against his orders would only have them labeled as Irregulars as well, unless the real X physically got up and took control, ousting the Copy himself and regaining the highest authority at the approval of the humans, his disapproval of the policy wouldn't make much difference in everything. For whatever reasons he seems unwilling or unable to do this himself, and relies on Zero. Perhaps with the coldness of his heart and his tiredness, he's not even sure what he should do, if there's anything he can do now that there's a new X in the big chair. Which would humans prefer, one that tells them they should suffer along with the repliroids during this time of crisis, or the one who would keep them comfortable and safe?

Only after Copy-X Mk2 was destroyed and Zero had already done battle with Phantom in Cyber Space. At the end of X and Phantom's conversation, Zero took down what seems like Omega form 2.

Their conversation happens around the beginning of the game, and at the end of it Fafnir and Levi's consciousness drifted into Cyberspace while receiving remedial care in Neo Arcadia, thanks to Weil's influence as explained in Will 1. Cyber X and Phantom sense their presence and go off to try and find them. They all return just before the Sub Arcadia mission. Phantom stays to test his blade against Zero one last time in Cyberspace.

[Zan]

Their conversation happens around the beginning of the game, and at the end of it Fafnir and Levi's consciousness drifted into Cyberspace while receiving remedial care in Neo Arcadia, thanks to Weil's influence as explained in Will 1. Cyber X and Phantom sense their presence and go off to try and find them. They all return just before the Sub Arcadia mission. Phantom stays to test his blade against Zero one last time in Cyberspace.

I don't think so.

Will1 is completely separate of Cyber Elf X's appearance. It details the events from Omega's appearance to the first set of missions.

In Will2, Phantom and X have their talk. By this time Phantom has already learned everything. And they end the conversation on the note that Zero has broken Omega and therefore they must make haste.

Will3 is shortly after that talk, Phantom and X meet up with Fefnir and Leviathan. Fafnir and Leviathan are asked to join Zero in his fight against Weil.

Will4 too is shortly after that. Harpuia has infiltrated Dr. Weil's base but is fighting a losing battle until Fefnir and Leviathan assist. After they all met up, they come together to assist Zero in the final battle.

With Zero taking down Omega and the direct tie in of Will2 to Wil3/4, how could the conversation from Will2 be at the very beginning?... Not to mention, Will2->4 are automatically long after the intro because they have to happen after Will1 to account for Fefnir and Leviathan.

[marshmallow man]

Will 1 explains that Fafnir and Leviathan have serious wounds from their fight with Omega, but are not receiving proper care, resources and personnel have been diverted to some other project due to Weil and Copy X's orders. Then they fell into a deep sleep, during which their souls enter the datastream. Since Will 2 seems to lead into Will 3 and so that X doesn't have to be 2 places at once, Will 2 should likely take place after the Copy X fight, and end at whatever time Fafnir and Leviathan are felt entering Cyberspace. Will 3 ends before X has to show up to protect the Resistance base from Dark Elf's control. It is definitely before Sub Arcadia and Phantom's reduel with Zero in Cyberspace.

With Zero taking down Omega and the direct tie in of Will2 to Wil3/4, how could the conversation from Will2 be at the very beginning?... Not to mention, Will2->4 are automatically long after the intro because they have to happen after Will1 to account for Fefnir and Leviathan.

Not the very beginning, I misspoke that one, more towards the middle, just after the middle point really, which is not so much the beginning at all, although my line of confusion was because I was thinking that Fafnir and Levi's Cyberspace adventure would have been closer to the time that they actually received their wounds, rather than later on. Checking the tracks versus X's appearance during the games, the time they drift off can be later rather than sooner and does fit better towards the end.

Anyhow, Phantom specifically sites his intent to challenge Zero again. And he suspects that Fafnir and Levi's wounds are from being defeated Omega, not that Omega was defeated. Huge difference.

Thanks to http://circled6.net/zero/drama/zero3-7.htm for the text...
サイバーＸ     この感じは・・彼らだね。
ファントム    オメガとやらに敗れたか・・。
サイバーＸ    おそらくは・・。行こう、ファントム。
ファントム    御意。


Cyber X: This feeling... it must be them.
Phantom: Have they been defeated by Omega...?
Cyber X: I fear you may be right... Let's go, Phantom.
Phantom: By your will.

[Zan]

Anyhow, Phantom specifically sites his intent to challenge Zero again. And he suspects that Fafnir and Levi's wounds are from being defeated Omega, not that Omega was defeated. Huge difference.

That's certainly a huge translation error... Duly noted.

Will 2 should likely take place after the Copy X fight, and end at whatever time Fafnir and Leviathan are felt entering Cyberspace.

Agreed, I can't pinpoint it any later given the retranslation.

Will 3 ends before X has to show up to protect the Resistance base from Dark Elf's control. It is definitely before Sub Arcadia and Phantom's reduel with Zero in Cyberspace.

This part I don't necessarily agree on. We don't know if X has to remain at the Resistance Base in order to cancel Vile's brainwashing. Remember, at some point X too has leave the base in order to head for the final battle.

I think we can agree that Will2 is immediately followed by Will3. If this is before Zero begins Sub Arcadia, how can X know and talk of Vile's brainwashing as happening before he even begins it?... This does not add up to me.

Furthermore, the flow toward Will4 has to be considered. Harpuia is currently in battle and at the end they all head for the final battle. Which places Will4 definitely after Sub Arcadia. In Will4, it's emphasized Fefnir and Leviathan are late even though they came as fast as they could.  Had they been awakened before the Sub Arcadia mission began, they certainly took their time. Though, they did excuse themselves....

Finally, Phantom considers Zero as capable of defeating Omega. Whereas before his battle with him, he was uncertain if Zero could even be considered a hero. All of this adds up to me thinking of the Will2>4 sequence of events as occurring when Zero is tackling the final stage.

Phantom specifically sites his intent to challenge Zero again

Got a quote for this? I don't quite see it in the translation I have at hand.

As for my rebuttal on this point. Phantom is much like Fefnir, Leviathan and Harpuia; they all wish to fight Zero. That's simply the impression Zero left by defeating them again and again.

[marshmallow man]

If this is before Zero begins Sub Arcadia, how can X know and talk of Vile's brainwashing as happening before he even begins it?... This does not add up to me.

X knows what Dark Elf is capable of and remembers the Elf Wars. His belief is that Weil will attempt to repeat the tragedy of the Elf Wars, he said as much already previously during the game, just didn't go into as much detail in front of Zero. X says it's probably already begun, denoting in fact that he does not know, but that time is of the essence, and by the time he gets back, he's right, it has started.

Finally, Phantom considers Zero as capable of defeating Omega. Whereas before his battle with him, he was uncertain if Zero could even be considered a hero.

Phantom knows of Zero's past, but still wishes to experience the strength of Zero's resolve through battle. The test of the hero. This is how he "helps" Zero.

Got a quote for this? I don't quite see it in the translation I have at hand.

What translation are you reading from, anyway? I know it isn't one of mine.

ファントム     ・・我が闇は・・御身以外の光にお仕えすることはございませぬ。
きゃつが人とレプリロイドを守護するまことの刃（やいば）たりえるのか・・拙者にできるのは・・ただそれを見極めることのみ。
拙者もまた・・刃なれば。
サイバーＸ    変わらないね・・君は。
ファントム    たやすく変わるようなものは、忠義とは呼べませぬ。
サイバーＸ    わかった。君のその揺るがない心、信じるよ。
ぼくも信じてる。ゼロはきっとすべてを乗り越えてくれると。

Phantom: ...My darkness... serves no other light than yours. Is the truth of his blade enough to protect humans and repliroids...? All I am able to do... is merely to ascertain this truth for myself. If I once again... become to the blade...
Cyber X: You never change... do you.
Phantom: One who changes easily can never be called loyal.
Cyber X: I understand. I trust in that unwavering heart of yours. Trust in me, as well. Zero will surely overcome anything.

Phantom is determined to see Zero's true character in battle, which is exactly what he does. X allows this, because he's sure Zero will prove himself, and tells Phantom as much.

He alludes to it again in Will 3.
ファーブニル     おい。おめえはどうすんだ、ファントム？
ファントム    闇漂うは我が定め。拙者にはここでなすべきことがある。

Fafnir: Hey! What're you gonna do, Phantom?
Phantom: My destiny drifts in the darkness. There is still something that I must do here.

[Zan]

What translation are you reading from, anyway? I know it isn't one of mine.

The one here:

http://geocities.com/protozantetsu/RTRZTelos1.txt

X knows what Dark Elf is capable of and remembers the Elf Wars. His belief is that Weil will attempt to repeat the tragedy of the Elf Wars, he said as much already previously during the game, just didn't go into as much detail in front of Zero. X says it's probably already begun, denoting in fact that he does not know, but that time is of the essence, and by the time he gets back, he's right, it has started.

You know, you're probably better off retranslating all the lines >.>

[Saber]

Didn't Phantom run into Cyber-elf X as a ghost?

(And are the Big 4 technically X's children?)

I meant that in the way of X appearing to the Big 4 inbetween ZERO1 and ZERO2, as well as after ZERO2. Phantom made contact with X while looming in Cyberspace and they both appeared before Fafnir and Leviathan while they were hanging between life and death. Neither X nor Phantom appeared before Harpuia, though technically he's the most important guy out of the Big 4, with him being Neo Arcadia's unofficial leader post-Z1 and all, not to mention he resembles X the most characterwise.

[Keno]

All definitions are made-up by man, including right & wrong.

[Jetfire]

If the series ended after Zero 1, I would have been slightly more sympathic to Copy X because that game alone conveyed the idea that he was just doing the reploid purge for the purpose of doing a preemptive strike against potential mavericks.

But as Zero 2 revealed, that had nothing to do with it. He was killing them off to save energy. He could have saved energy by not creating more reploids or pantheons, or devoted more time to research a better energy source. Human society must pay the consequences for their decisions. It was their move to play god by creating reploids.

That's what this is about- consequences; we see the same problem today with the bailouts. Instead of letting poor decisions fail (as painful as that is, it pains me to write this) we dodge the consequences and send a message that if you make poor decisions we will bail you out-thus encouraging more bad decisions and making the problem worse.

Copy X was a mass murderer comparable to Charles Logan in 24: sacrificing his people not for freedom or protection but to ensure affluent lifestyles for the citizens.

The only thing I sympathize about Copy X is the fact that while Ciel was a technological genius, she and the people who commisioned her to create Copy X were idiots.

Bob: Dude, X sealed the Dark Elf with his body!

Frank: We better do something or the people will panic!

Bob: lets get that child prodigy to create a perfect Physical copy of X and say he is the real X!

Frank: Perfect! The fact that he is a physical copy means he'll have all the experience and judgement as the real one right?

[Flame]

I actually sympathize with Copy X a bit. He wasnt evil because he was born that way, he was like that because the people around him dumped the world on his shoulders and basically said, "Alright, BE X." Since he had next to nothing on how his predecessor lived other than the fact that he was a legendary hero, with a huge chip on his shoulder and such a name to live up to,  he handeled things as best as his naiive childish mind could. Instead of cleaning out his cluttered room, he instead threw everything out, so to speak. instead of finding a solution to the energy crisis, just kill all the gas guzzling Reploids. that was the easiest thing. And those in power around him seemed to think that it was a good solution. in fact, the probably followed him to the letter simply because he "was X", Naiive themselves of his different mentality and inability to cope with the weight pushed onto him.
I often bring up the idea, Under different circumstances, without an energy crisis, and without corrupt government, if he was treated for what he was, the SUCCESSOR to X, not the perfect replica to BE X, (as in, not raised with the weight of the world dumped on his shoulders just like that, in a time of terrible need) how would he have turned out? How would his personality and thought process differ from what he eventually DID become?

[Hypershell]

I don't agree with the notion that Copy X did what he did in an effort to fulfill the expectations of the Original X.  Because Copy X stated outright that what he did, creating the perfect utopia for humans, was something that Zero and the Original X could never do.

His ego is his own.  He didn't just want to be X.  He wanted to be better than X, at any cost.  In the same way that Elpizo wanted to be better than Zero, except with Copy X there's no Dark Elf corruption to factor in.  Copy X was not simply a victim of being thrown into power, he reveled in it.

[Flame]

Exactly, but because he was in such a huge shadow, he desired to be more than just a copy.He wanted to be better.

[Robert Oakes]

It's true that Copy X was a naive and misguided soul. He was given an enormous responsibility at birth, forced to uphold the reputation of a legendary figure he never knew because he was built with that image. Due to his lack of experience, Copy X lacked the maturity and knowledge to be a fair leader. In fact, Copy X was as mature as a spoiled child. But does this mean he wasn't evil?

Regardless of his reasons, Copy X was still responsible for several atrocities during his tenure as leader of Neo Arcadia. Copy X never displayed concern for those around him, only thinking of himself and his reputation. He never showed any regrets or doubts when he ordered the execution of countless innocent Reploids, when he stripped the Four Guardians of their authority (and ignored their condition after their fight with Omega), or even when he allowed the destruction of an entire residential district inside Neo Arcadia in order to allow Omega to capture the Dark Elf. Humans lived in that district and Copy X was aware of it; in fact, he didn't seem to care at all when Ciel mentioned the fact.

Although the circumstances make a sensible explanation for Copy X's attitude and allow us to sympathize with him, can we really say that his selfish behavior and lack of conscience don't define him as evil?

[Hypershell]

In all fairness I don't consider MKII's actions as applicable to the character to MKI.  Copy X MKII was a simple tool used by Weil to facilitate his plans; I consider it naive to think that some foul play was not involved in his resurrection.

[Flame]

It was.
Remember the Bomb placed on him.
Also, in every single way, Copy X was manipulated by Weil.
Shooting the missile into the residential district included. God knows what the hell thoughts Weil was feeding into his head.

[Hypershell]

Remember the Bomb placed on him.

I meant mentally.  But yeah.

[Copy X]

Will you people please stop talking about me? Okay, Thanks.

In all seriousness, he was  confused. Thought he was doing the right thing but in reality, he wasn't.

Short to the point: MKI was confused, MkII wasn't.

[Robert Oakes]

I personally do not consider Weil's influence as an excuse; Copy X's actions were clearly his own. He could have acted differently, but he retained the same immaturity and naivety from before; all Weil did was take advantage of this. Copy X still made the decision of firing the missile with Omega at the residential district. He knew that humans would die, the humans he was created to protect, yet he didn't demonstrate any hint of conscience or morality; his decisions were repeatedly questioned by Harpuia, and he was only upset at Harpuia's attitude. Ciel refused to cooperate with Copy X when he proved himself willing to sacrifice innocents, and Copy X deemed her and the Resistance "filthy extremists". Zero questioned the value in justice sought by complacent humans, and Copy X's answer was: "Wh-who cares about value? Neo Arcadia's doing what's right."

Copy X thought he was doing the right thing and fighting for justice, but how many villains actually consider themselves evil? Even if we take Weil's persuasion into account: if you commit a crime because you were told to, does that make you less responsible?

[Hypershell]

his decisions were repeatedly questioned by Harpuia

This is actually a good reason for me TO consider Weil's influence very much a factor.  The Big Four never questioned MKI.  No matter how extreme his methods he never gave them a reason to doubt that his first priority was defending humanity.

Between the slurred speech and the complete blindness to the danger which Weil presents, I don't buy that some manner of mental foul play was not involved in MKII's resurrection.  Offering Weil forgiveness is one thing, but moving him up to 2nd-in-command?  Senseless.  I'm not saying it relieves him of responsibility, but I would say that it makes his actions an inaccurate representation of Copy X MKI's character.  MKI prided himself on succeeding where "other" legendary heroes had failed, I don't think he would have run crying to Omega when he was on the ropes, as MKII did.  Nor do I believe that MKI would fire a missile into his own residential district.  Harpuia, at least, did not believe he was capable of such, and I see no reason to question that judgment.

[Flame]

[Chainsaw Guitar]

Ehhhhh... I actually find Copy X to be somewhat sympathetic. He probably didn't know how much harm he was causing. I imagine the feedback he received for his actions were so overwhelmingly positive that it would be easy to pass off any protesters as maverick. Now Elpizo... That is true villainy. His plan was to create a bizzaro world of Neo-Arcadia after awakening the elf that nearly brought the world to destruction all because he was butthurt over the beating he got from the 3 guardians. What a [tornado fang]ing narcissist.

[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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