Topic: MegaMan Zero, then and now.

[xnamkcor]

Im going to necropost here- but- Why?
did you dislike it that much?

I love X8 as a game, but if we say X6 ruins the continuity, what then of X7 or X8? Just because X8 was a great game doesn't mean it's still screwing the continuity even more.

[Zan]

I love X8 as a game, but if we say X6 ruins the continuity, what then of X7 or X8? Just because X8 was a great game doesn't mean it's still screwing the continuity even more.

None of the aforementioned games ruined the continuity in any way.

Is this the right place to ask about the soul-splitting of X sealing the Dark Elf? Specifically, if that happened, what the source is, and if the Guardians know about X being at Yggdrasil (if so, why do they accept Copy-X as the real one?).

From the Zero Collection site:

"The Legendary Blue Messiah" X
The legendary blue repliroid and ruler of Neo Arcadia who symbolizes "infinite potential" and a "purveyor of justice" for all.
Though he had done so for the sake of peace, he often worried over having to destroy his fellow repliroids during the long confrontations of the "Irregular Wars", a condition which went mostly unchanged even after Zero went to sleep following the Nightmare Incident.
In the closing period of the Irregular Wars (later referred to as the Elf Wars), X cooperated with Zero who had acquired a copy body, to capture the Dark Elf, and arranged to use his anti-virus countermeasure to seal her within his own body.
When he sealed the Dark Elf, the shock forced X's soul from his body and split it into 5 cyber elves.
Eventually, 4 of these souls were incorporated into the Shitennou of Neo Arcadia, while one continued to wander the earth.

This is further elaborated upon in CopyX's profile, which says that his body was originally produced to revive X after he sealed Dark Elf, but X's cyber elf vanished, requiring a copy instead.

[Align]

Bit of a sidetrack, but... "after Zero went to sleep following the Nightmare Incident."? So that ending wasn't a sneak peek, after all?

[Zan]

X7, X8 and XCM are also "following the nightmare incident". There is no timeframe specified.

Also, did you really miss all this discussion back when the Zero Collection site was first put online?...

[xnamkcor]

So as long as things happen after the Nightmare Incident, it's ok to keep Zero from actually sleeping. Up to the point where Zero goes to sleep for 5 hours and then Megaman Zero happens.

[Zan]

You say that as if we know exactly in which year Rockman Zero takes place.

[xnamkcor]

I do?
I assume that the later he waits to sleep, the less time he sleeps and that 5 hours is indeed an amount of time less than the maximum and more than the minimum possible time spent doing something. Regardless of when it happens, the longer he waits, the more silly the amount of time he sleeps becomes. Doesn't help that somebody decided that "following X6" means anytime after X6 and not that he sleeps after X6 but before any other X games.

[Align]

X7, X8 and XCM are also "following the nightmare incident". There is no timeframe specified.

Also, did you really miss all this discussion back when the Zero Collection site was first put online?...

It just sounds like the phrasing implies the Nightmare incident->sealing directly with nothing of import happening in between.
I do remember the discussions about this, but they weren't stickied so I wasn't sure how it affected other things we (or you guys, rather) established with logic and reasoning rather than outright word of god. Like the Guardians obviously couldn't have been active in the Elf Wars if they didn't exist prior to Dark Elf being sealed.

[Zan]

I do?
I assume that the later he waits to sleep, the less time he sleeps and that 5 hours is indeed an amount of time less than the maximum and more than the minimum possible time spent doing something. Regardless of when it happens, the longer he waits, the more silly the amount of time he sleeps becomes. Doesn't help that somebody decided that "following X6" means anytime after X6 and not that he sleeps after X6 but before any other X games.

We, the fanbase, decided that the X6 Zero ending did not have to happen immediately following X6, in order to validate the X-series titles that follow. There is no official word whatsoever on how exactly those titles relate to Rockman Zero. Whether they were developed with that premise in mind, or follow a different ending to X6, these titles do nothing to mess up continuity.

Either way, Inticreates has only given us the statement that X1 to X6 is "1XX years ago" and that classic is "more than 200", with Zero being studied for "50 years." As the X-series spans no more than a few years up to that point, we have decades of leeway that only XCM could even begin to stress.

It just sounds like the phrasing implies the Nightmare incident->sealing directly with nothing of import happening in between.

There are a couple of requirements for Zero sealing himself away. One of these as that people, including himself, acknowledge that he is spreading the virus. As X6 gives no indication of anybody beyond Gate knowing, how could Zero seal himself for a reason he is not yet aware of?

Like the Guardians obviously couldn't have been active in the Elf Wars if they didn't exist prior to Dark Elf being sealed.

The only word of their activity prior to being sealed is the Shining Arms, which we can just presume were wielded by X, or are the epitome of Neo Arcadia propaganda.

[Hypershell]

*1-up sound*
I know, I know, necro-posting, but MM25 had a bit of new info on this one (see second quote-bit below)

We, the fanbase, decided that the X6 Zero ending did not have to happen immediately following X6, in order to validate the X-series titles that follow. There is no official word whatsoever on how exactly those titles relate to Rockman Zero. Whether they were developed with that premise in mind, or follow a different ending to X6, these titles do nothing to mess up continuity.

I suppose it technically is an assumption but it is a logical one.  It's a known fact that MMZ was in development already when X6 was out and that Inafune's initial reaction was that it'd be trouble for storytelling.  And while it was odd that nothing specifically indicates Zero's X6 ending as being a "sneek peek" at anything, it is equally odd that no event within the rest of X6 ties into it, including X's "good" ending where Zero is present and accounted for.  It's only because of the MMZ Collection website that the Nightmare Incident relates to Zero's sealing/research at all, as X6 itself doesn't specify what Zero is hoping to accomplish.

Either way, Inticreates has only given us the statement that X1 to X6 is "1XX years ago" and that classic is "more than 200", with Zero being studied for "50 years." As the X-series spans no more than a few years up to that point, we have decades of leeway that only XCM could even begin to stress.

Since the last thread post in 2010 there is a new sliver of information on this front.  Higurashi (lead artist on Command Mission) was asked about Command Mission's place in the timeline in the MM25 interviews, and here's what he had to say:



"Command Mission" is technically a spin-off, so even though it takes place in 22XX, it's not necessarily the same "22XX" during which the "Zero" series takes place.  Still, we didn't want to cut it off completely just because it's a spin-off.  Our goal was to incorporate some of the "Zero" series' flavor in order to make it feel like "Command Mission" is still connected to the other games, like it is a part of the same family.  So it might be easier if you regard "Command Mission" not as "a story that takes place between X7 and the Zero series", but rather as "one of many potential futures that exists independently from the Zero series."



I've said it before, and Inti basically admitted it themselves in MMZOCW, but I'll say it again: The lack of "22XX" references from Z2 onward is much more justly laid at Inticreates' feet, what with the Dark Elf's origins and such, than it is at any notion of trying to make room for the later X-series titles.

Command Mission is a squeeze, but I don't think there's any reason it NEEDS to be an alternate.  It would seem that idea is still on the table within Capcom, though.

This makes me all the more disappointed about Mega Man Online's cancellation.  Even if everyone is a Copy Chip clone and even if the game would wind up being non-canon anyway, Cinnamon's visions of Neo Arcadia are the only effort ever made to actually reconcile elements of Command Mission and Zero series.  It would have been an interesting point of discussion, for sure.

The only word of their activity prior to being sealed is the Shining Arms, which we can just presume were wielded by X, or are the epitome of Neo Arcadia propaganda.

Any particular reason Zero isn't just as viable?  If the later-X-series games and the Zero series have one thing in common, it's that the whole multiple-primary-weapons shpiel kinda became Zero's thing.  One could draw parallels between Dark Cross and Shield Boomerang, and the Frost Javelin and Triple Rod maybe.

[Zan]

*1-up sound*
I know, I know, necro-posting, but MM25 had a bit of new info on this one (see second quote-bit below)

I personally don't mind, as long as there's something to discuss.

We also pretty recently acquired this little tidbit:

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/companions-through-life-and-death-time-and-again-the-story-of-inti-creates-and-mega-man

"Capcom, the company itself, wanted to keep on creating the X series," says Aizu. "That’s the reason why both the X series and the Zero series ran in parallel. Our two teams had no communication with each other, so literally we would see the press releases and read them and be like, 'Oh... OK, this part is overlapping too much, so maybe we should change something,' or, 'Oh, our concepts are too far apart, so maybe we should make it a little closer to what they’re creating.'   

"Those X games were not created by Inafune. He was working on the Battle Network games at the time. Maybe it's not appropriate for me to talk about this, since it's more of something Inafune should discuss himself, but my perspective as an outsider observing the situation is that it was kind of like he wanted to continue working on those side scrolling Mega Man games, but they were kind of taken away from him. So that’s why he started the Zero series."   

"The main concept that we wanted to explore was Zero killing X," says Aizu. "We wanted to come up with something really sensational. There was something about Mega Man Zero at first that we felt wasn't quite right — it wasn't true to our idea of the character. So we tried to resolve that by coming up with this dramatic concept.   

"Also, there's a manga series called Kikaider which really influenced me, and Inafune happened to like the concept, too. The Kikaider manga had an anime spin-off called Hakaider. There, the bad guy, Hakaider, becomes the main character and defeats the main character of Kikaider. That struck me as really sensational and stuck in my mind, and that's what inspired me to take the direction we did with Mega Man Zero.   

"Originally, Inafune had simply requested a game built around both Zero and X. But I wanted to do something with more impact, so that’s why I came up with this idea."   

Surprisingly, Aizu says, this radical rethinking of the series' main cast was met with enthusiasm by the Mega Man fans at Inti Creates — though not everyone shared their feelings.   

"Within the team, there was no resistance at all," he recalls. "In fact, right up until we went to master the game, the plot played out with Zero defeating X.

"However, Capcom as a company... it didn’t serve well for the company to have a series in which X is the hero and then another title where that same hero gets killed off. And so because of that, at the very, very, very end, like right before we sent the game to be manufactured, we had to change it so that the X that Zero kills was actually a copy. We didn’t have time to change the game play, though, so just the story changed slightly."

I've said it before, and Inti basically admitted it themselves in MMZOCW, but I'll say it again: The lack of "22XX" references from Z2 onward is much more justly laid at Inticreates' feet, what with the Dark Elf's origins and such, than it is at any notion of trying to make room for the later X-series titles.

I'm inclined to think that both the X and ZERO side of development kept details intentionally vague in order to avoid stepping on each other's toes while maintaining their own creative freedom.

Without communication between the teams, that was the best either could've done at the time. It's not until after each series concluded / went on hiatus, that the developers have begun to work out the remaining kinks (see ZERO collection timeline).

Command Mission is a squeeze, but I don't think there's any reason it NEEDS to be an alternate.

Once upon a time I would've had the same opinion. However, if we take every current tidbit of information at face value, there's really no other conclusion to be made:

-21XX, X-series)
-22XX, ZERO-series
-Elf Wars 50 years after X6 Zero End.
-ZERO-series 100 years after Elf Wars.

No matter what, this places the Elf Wars at late 21XX, long before Command Mission's 22XX of 2202+. And as they say in Ace Attorney: That's a contradiction.

Any particular reason Zero isn't just as viable?  If the later-X-series games and the Zero series have one thing in common, it's that the whole multiple-primary-weapons shpiel kinda became Zero's thing. One could draw parallels between Dark Cross and Shield Boomerang, and the Frost Javelin and Triple Rod maybe.

The primary reason Zero isn't as viable is his continued absence from the Maverick Wars as a Maverick Hunter following X6. One may count Elf Wars as part of the Maverick Wars and forcibly allow it, but that's not the spirit with which the original Shining Arms concept was created. Back then (in RTRZ, pre-Z2) there were no Elf Wars for Zero to have fought in.

[Hypershell]

The bit on Zero killing X is quite an elaboration from the MMZOCW tidbit.  I wonder, though, about this:

"We didn’t have time to change the game play, though, so just the story changed slightly."

Can't help but be curious about Original X having a Seraph form.  But mental note for the next time we have a "submit questions to ask Inti guys" topic: What was the original scenario for Zero obtaining the Z-Saber in Z1?

Once upon a time I would've had the same opinion. However, if we take every current tidbit of information at face value, there's really no other conclusion to be made:

-21XX, X-series)
-22XX, ZERO-series
-Elf Wars 50 years after X6 Zero End.
-ZERO-series 100 years after Elf Wars.

I have yet to see "22XX, Zero-series" referenced in any post-Z1 material, sans the above-mentioned question to Higurashi, who is not part of the Zero-series crew.  So the communication gap casts a doubt on that one.  The fact that Zero Collection for all its clarifications did not bring actual century labels to the table was always something that struck me as odd, it seems to me they're deliberately leaving that one open.  But I suppose that could just be unwillingness to commit to which century Elf Wars falls into.

I would say it is "highly unlikely, but not impossible" for Zero's creation and Command Mission to take place within the same less-than-49-year-window, which is where the arithmatic lands us if Command Mission is in fact prior to Zero being researched (this would require Wily cheating death well before Zero was actually built, and Cain using exceedingly old software to access X's capsule warning; beyond that I think we're covered).  You could also try to dodge an AU by placing Command Mission during Elf Wars, although that would leave the two series stepping on each other's toes quite a bit.

I get the impression that Command Mission was just the "Do what feels awesome and figure it out later" approach.  Talking about it is like talking about a Zelda game in terms of timeline placement.

The primary reason Zero isn't as viable is his continued absence from the Maverick Wars as a Maverick Hunter following X6. One may count Elf Wars as part of the Maverick Wars and forcibly allow it, but that's not the spirit with which the original Shining Arms concept was created. Back then (in RTRZ, pre-Z2) there were no Elf Wars for Zero to have fought in.

Given that the Z-Saber itself is one of them, I consider it virtually impossible for the Elf Wars to NOT impact the story/distribution of the Shining Arms.

[Zan]

Can't help but be curious about Original X having a Seraph form.  But mental note for the next time we have a "submit questions to ask Inti guys" topic: What was the original scenario for Zero obtaining the Z-Saber in Z1?

Cyber-Elf X is quite integral to the plot. Though I guess most of his roles would be substituted, there's a ton of depth lost along the way.

I have yet to see "22XX, Zero-series" referenced in any post-Z1 material, sans the above-mentioned question to Higurashi, who is not part of the Zero-series crew.  So the communication gap casts a doubt on that one.

There's certainly a distinct ambiguity. It does seem, however, that 22XX was always the intent, even if Inti's not quite willing to cement it. If not ZERO in 22XX, then Elf Wars at the very least.

this would require Wily cheating death well before Zero was actually built

I've always felt "1XX years ago" was mislabeled on that entry of the timeline, but you never know.

I get the impression that Command Mission was just the "Do what feels awesome and figure it out later" approach.  Talking about it is like talking about a Zelda game in terms of timeline placement.

Which is pretty much why they made it an AU to begin with.

Really, if they wanted to avoid contradictions with the ZERO-series, they should've just placed it in 21XX instead of 22XX.

Given that the Z-Saber itself is one of them, I consider it virtually impossible for the Elf Wars to NOT impact the story/distribution of the Shining Arms.

X is assumed to have used the Z-saber during the remaining Maverick Wars. While more so a product of X5's ending than X6's, that does not invalidate the possibility of X having wielded every single one (Japanese and its lack of plural...). The Elf Wars are simply not required for the distribution of the Shining Arms, even if they are a viable option.

[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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