Topic: Who is the true puppetmaster? Model W (Dr.Weil) or Albert? Who controlls whom?

[Thanatos-Zero]

I read not long ago on the MegamanKnowledgeBase the article of Dr. Weil and Albert. Numerous things are said that Model W is manipulating Albert all along. Now I want to know if Weil as Model W changed his plan of a world of living death ruled by him to the idea of the "new life, reseting the world" is his personal wish or just a lure for Albert to bait in it, to gain the power to resurrect himself completely.
What does the original japanese script says in ZX Advent? <wii>

[Satoryu]

my instinct says that's fanon. but i've been dead wrong about these things before.

in both games, the Model V/W's were not sentient beings. they were just tools used by Serpent and Albert to achieve their own goals.

paging Dr. Zan.

[Align]

Insufficient data. It looked like Albert was just another insane genius, but it's possible that in ZX3 we would've found that Model W will make anyone that comes in contact with it both crazy and genial.
Remind me though, was Albert crazy before he found (out about) model W?

[Hypershell]

Albert didn't "find out about" Model W, he made it.  Whether or not it's at all possible for Ragnarok to influence others before Albert made it into a Biometal is entirely speculation.

paging Dr. Zan.

Zan's on vacation for a week or so, so you're stuck with me and, if he shows up, Marshmallow.

in both games, the Model V/W's were not sentient beings. they were just tools used by Serpent and Albert to achieve their own goals.

That is highly debatable.  Model W is not seen to converse, that doesn't indicate whether or not it is sentient.  Model W, as stated by Pandora, is a conscious entity and was in control of Serpent, who was weak.  However the extent of Model W's consciousness is unclear.  Whether it is intelligent enough to be able to form its own plans or is just an instinctive pile of malevolence, that's not known.  Any future information could very easily spin the story either way.

However, I do not see ANYTHING within ZX Advent that pertains to the resurrection of Weil, so I'd definitely call that fanon.  As a general rule of thumb one should never trust MegaMan wikis, ever.  There's nothing within either ZX or Advent that pertains to a plan by Model W itself.  In terms of focus, the story very clearly centers around Albert.

Certainly Albert is in some manner influenced by Model W, as he is fed a tremendous amount of data from it.  That's fact.  It is through this data, the spirit of everything Model W eats (fear, despair, hatred, and such), that Albert believes the world desires destruction at evolution's extreme.  But there's no real grounds to say whether or not Model W exerted its own will in Albert's plans for Ouroboros and the Ultimate MegaMan.

[Acid]

I blame Kalinka.

[Nekomata]

Dr Light.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Dr Light.

He did start it by creating these robots of mass destruction to begin with, but he isn't completely to blame. I think Dr. Cain was the one who screwed up the world.

[Zan]

However, I do not see ANYTHING within ZX Advent that pertains to the resurrection of Weil, so I'd definitely call that fanon. 

I think within the first ZX, we have the awakening of Model V as an important plot point that is similar to Weil trying to ressurect himself. Of note being that Model W invades Serpent's mind making Serpent like Weil, followed by Serpent as the Model W MegaMan effectively merging with Weil's remains to make Serpent become one with Weil for that short moment. This is further emphasized by Model W's continuing evolution during battle, revealing the face of a mechanical old man. Something was surely being born during that battle; the MegaMan King or Dr. Weil?

Ofcourse, with Advent applied, the awakening of Model W is simply a stepping stone to Ouroborous. But, that only returns us to the root of the topic, is Albert or Weil in charge? Model W or Ouroborous? What defines the Rockman King?

Personally, my gut feeling says Weil, simply because I can barely believe he's already out of the picture. I can grasp Albert being as dead as dead can be, but Model W may or may not be down for the count just yet. I guess the key lies with how Thomas and his plans develop from here on out. Either way, within Advent, we do have strong implications that Albert's megalomania led to him becoming a twisted version of his old self, even if he denies Ashe's accusation of it being Model W that's controlling him, he does admit he changed from his miserable old self that's reflected in both Grey and Ashe..

[Galappan]

Hmmm I'll go with Model W (Dr.Weil) as the Puppet Master. I always thought that Model W has the ability to stir/amplify negative thoughts/emotion or anything negative within your soul. That's make Ciel also susceptible that she needs too hide herself from Model W. I also have this feeling that Model W is conscious & can also speak it just act as if it's can't. Why? I dunno excatly.

That's my fanon.

About Thomas...I think he's a Puppet Master too in his own right. Besides the Sigma resemblance, Thomas' humongous body reminds me the idea of A box inside a box. Like this ->5:17

Could it be?

ZX3 has a lot of questions to answer. 

[Sakura Leic]

Wasn't it mentioned in the first Zx game that Model W was talking to the Guardian recon team in area F in their minds and some of them started getting headaches?
   
 
 

[Hypershell]

As I said in my last post, that Model W influences other is established fact.  Influence, however, does not necessarily equal "puppetmaster", the topic at hand.  A puppetmaster needs the capacity to think, act, and plan.  Model W is conscious, but again as I said earlier, whether it is intelligent or just a ball of malevolence that infects others, that isn't clear.

I can grasp Albert being as dead as dead can be, but Model W may or may not be down for the count just yet.

Thing is, it'd be very anti-climactic to continue using Model W (at least as primary focus, anyway) after Ouroboros, the peak of its design and power.  Thomas notes some similarity to Albert yet still believes him to be wrong, and my gut tells me that Model W was the deciding factor that cost Albert Thomas's cooperation.  For Model W to be associated with Thomas would amount to Model W attacking itself.

I think for Model W to continue we'd need a villain other than Thomas.

[Acid]

My memory is lacking.

What were Thomas' words about the Reploid/Machine bodies again?

[Klavier Gavin]

My memory is lacking.

What were Thomas' words about the Reploid/Machine bodies again?

That's the secret ending right?

uh...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-UTlbCUjHc[/youtube]

[Zan]

For Model W to be associated with Thomas would amount to Model W attacking itself.

Considering Model W's track record of stirring up trouble, I can see this happening. It'd be quite a twist, mind you. But it's all possible.

We'll just have to see how it goes down, but I think the current situation is one of the most intriguing. We know Model W can't be down just yet, but we also know the advertised antagonist has nothing to do with it. If those two forces are played out against each other more, we can create quite a conflict. Perhaps Model W remains as a promise of power to the four that now ally with Thomas? Even if Thomas himself does not need Model W, the promise of the Game of Destiny is what would align key players to his cause.

whether it is intelligent or just a ball of malevolence that infects others, that isn't clear.

-We are the voice of Model W-

Whatever that means. I feel that as of ZX, Model W felt more intelligent, talking through Pandora and Prometheus. But with Advent and Albert, lots of the references get muddled to have Model W on the border of intelligence and instinct as all acts of supposed intelligence can be attributed to Albert. It's like Albert is Model W and Model W is Albert. I'm thinking the truth is somewhere in the middle; Model W has some intelligence, but is unable to act beyond giving his malevolence given to others. Pandora and Prometheus' potential return for a third game might shed some light on this manner.

[Hypershell]

We know Model W can't be down just yet

Actually, no we don't.  All Model W's are in Ouroboros, which is at the bottom of the ocean.  Whether it's salvageable is a valid question.

On the other hand, there's the difference between Model W cores and Model W fragments to consider...  Heck, that's a whole other beast of a topic to tackle, but very relevant to the question at hand.

-We are the voice of Model W-

And yet they do (attempt to) defy Albert.  But to credit that line, PnP are probably more like Weil than any other character.  They lived a lifetime of suffering, went nuts, and work towards destruction that even they themselves acknowledge is senseless.

[Acid]

You know, this question could be answered by now. IF THEY MADE ZX3 ALREADY.

[Harruhy]

But after having those questions solved, there would be more loose ends to figure out.
Unless they, I dunno, give the new game an actual ending that isn't some sort of a cliffhanger.

[Flame]

Im surprised no one has stated the main problem that this came from the MMKB?

Im dissapointed in you Zan.

I already replied to this on X9.

Well seeing as Model W does not seem to have a consciousness, due to a Human soul being much different from a reploid one, especially back from 200 years ago, he seems to be more of an essence. a malignant , intelligent essence. Model W does not talk like other biometals. it feeds negative thoughts and vibes to its host, pretty much driving them nuts. remember the bunch that found the first Model W fragment heard voices in their heads. not that the Biometal talked to them directly. No, It was like merely having it around radiated a negative energy, that preyed on peoples thoughts and minds.

Remember that Albert is the one who created W. without Albert, there would be no conflicts in ZX/ZXA.

Albert is in complete control of model W. He's just insane. He wants to be a God, like Redips before him. the WHOLE purpose of him creating W was to achieve that. he scattered cores everywhere that fed on souls and negative thoughts, and waited almost 200 years so that he could form Uroboros, and become a God.

[Zan]

Im dissapointed in you Zan.

Zan's on vacation for a week or so, so you're stuck with me and, if he shows up, Marshmallow.

Be dissappointed in them, I wasn't here.

Well seeing as Model W does not seem to have a consciousness

It seems... conscious. It began to speak to us in our minds.

Remember that Albert is the one who created W. without Albert, there would be no conflicts in ZX/ZXA.

As if. There's Thomas. Not to mention Vile himself; Vile who wholly intended to ressurect from the remains of Ragnarok. Albert's nothing without Model V as the basis of his research.

Albert is in complete control of model W. He's just insane.

That stuff is only in your head! The power of Model W has taken control of you!

Do remember that it's bonafide fact that the Livemetal controls those with weaknesses in their hearts and have Albert's DNA. Nobody has Albert's DNA more than Albert. Wether or not the creator's heart can stand up to Model V invading his mind is entirely up for debate.

[Hypershell]

I already replied to this on X9.

As I stated earlier, Model W's intelligence or lack thereof is highly speculative.  It is living, and lack of communication does not necessarily mean a lack of intelligence.  Remove somebody's vocal cords, and it doesn't affect their brain.

Model W may be as you describe, or it may be wholly intelligent.  The games do not establish that either way.

We must further be aware that Model W has the unique status of being divided into multiple cores and fragments.  ZXA elaborates on the Model W cores, but doesn't really tell us anything about the fragments other than Albert using them as shields.  What traits do the fragments and cores share?  What differentiates them from each other?  Sharing the same Model label, and one being seen to absorb the other in ZX, implies some kind of link, but to what extent does that link go?  There's a world of information there that hasn't been touched on.

[Zan]

We must further be aware that Model W has the unique status of being divided into multiple cores and fragments.

One thing that comes to mind is that the games establish the fragment as seeming conscious and invading minds, being the source of irregulars. Whereas the cores seem more like Vile's physical remains, especially the Cinq Ville core. But if that has any importance? Yeah, who knows.

[Aile-chan]

Remember that Albert is the one who created W. without Albert, there would be no conflicts in ZX/ZXA.

As if. There's Thomas. Not to mention Vile himself; Vile who wholly intended to ressurect from the remains of Ragnarok. Albert's nothing without Model V as the basis of his research.

True, Just look at what happened to Area M, Albert CLEARLY did not do that, Vile had to have been regenerating in a unsettling way.
[spoiler]Those tentacle cables scare me *shivers*[/spoiler]

[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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[xemiroth]

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