Topic: X8. I didnt like it all that much.

[Zan]

Well, in-game characters are often morons for reasons of plot development.

It's not the characters really, just the fans. In the plot Zero has clearly been labeled "missing in action". X himself desperately searched for his parts, but only gave up because Zero had vanished. Throughout X6 they still believe Zero might be alive.

[Hypershell]

True, the opening cutscene states "barely escaped with their lives", but I'm not sure how many game characters besides Isoc consider it likely that Zero survived.  X is eternally hopeful, I'm sure, but his reaction at seeing Zero seems to indicate that the worst had at least occurred to him.

[Keno]

Do you know what sort of sucked about X8? Every level was a gimmick. There weren't any normal levels with enemies. The closest to those are Pandemonium & Antonion, but they have ride armor through the whole level & buttons to make them abnormal. I like a few gimmick stages, like McWhalen & Dizzy from X5, but not all of the Mavericks'.

[Soultrigger]

Holy [parasitic bomb]. Excuse wall of text. Or scroll.  

I'll again reiterate that X is as dead as Zero in X5.  I'm not sure by what logic it is assumed that only X's creator would take measures to ensure his survival when we know as stated fact that Zero's creator was already involved in the virus-colony plot.

The difference is that X was revived at the end of X5, Inafune thought X5 was going to be the last one, and had to change Z1 to realign with X6.

You don't if you claim that X6 is unclearable as unarmored X.  That is not an elitist attitude, it is fact.

If you're going to attach minimalist run strings to that statement, you need to say so.  And that's an argument I've already been over.  Long story short: Part of a minimalist run is determining what the minimum requirements actually are.  If you can't do that then you have no business attempting it.  The same as no reasonably intelligent individual should be conceding their default equipment in any game without first thinking about the consequences.  You speak as if the casual player will be attempting the game unarmored and there is really no reason they should be doing so.

The reason I brought up <i>partless</i> unarmored X is to show that you can't always substitute skill to clear a stage. This isn't like a turn-based RPG where it's generally dependent on your preexisting conditions. It's a platformer where power ups usually only help you to apply less skill. I'm stereotyping the game, yes, but that's the point. Is it <i>my</i> fault as the gamer if the developers don't warn me beforehand? And I'm not even talking about doing a handicapped run here, but rather a legitimate scenario.

I realize that full well.  Let me be equally clear.  No other game, sans X5, makes every item in the game skippable.  There are bound to be concessions, which even as you yourself stated encourage creativity.  Thus by your own admission we are talking about a differing style, which is not a flaw.  Neither is less valid than the other.

No, it <b>is</b> a flaw. I'm playing the game normally, not handicapped, and yet I lose because the game's layout was poorly planned.
If I should expect things like this to happen, then it wouldn't be.

5 was nothing like the first 4.  Not to mention I fail to see how unexpected cross-game differences are unfair.  Every title is to be judged on its own merits; MegaMan games are actually unusual in how similar they are.  That still doesn't mean that knowledge of previous titles is a free pass to future titles.

Mega Man games (at least Classic and X) were generally very similar from one title to the next. This isn't, say, Final Fantasy, where the next game is usually made fresh. This is Mega Man, where games are built on a preexisting formula. People who buy the game expect it to be similar to the previous title.
Doesn't <i>have</i> to be similar. But in the scenario in which we speak, it should be because there's really no good reason why it shouldn't be.

...because your Select button was dead?

Or I wanted to go back to the stage select? If I'm correct, pressing select brings you back to the title screen. Unless you mean talking to that useless navigator who can't talk to you during the Gate Stages anyways (thank god that's no longer mandatory).
Loading your file may be faster than through a game over. But then you bring up the issues of lives. IIRC there IS no point of lives in X6. >_>

I believe we already tackled this with MM1 and MM8.  MM3's incidents are insignificant by comparison as they involve draining multiple weapon bars (you have to be out of both Jet and Coil to get stuck in Doc Robot's Gemini Man) for no particular reason, as they have nowhere near enough realistic use outside of those obstacles to expect such.

In MM8, you <b>have</b> to get said abilities. When you can skip them, like MM1, that should be a flaw. It's a bit more understandable in MM1's case though, seeing how you can't skip the screen WITH Magnet Beam. In X6's case, on the other hand, it's more of "oh, too bad, you're just unlucky."

The only thing about X4 that I didn't care for was the soundtrack.  I honestly think it's one of the weakest in the X series.

See, there's another problem I had with X4's music too; the Final Stages.  They. Are. So. Bland.

Okay, I'll give you that. Spaceport was somewhat okay, though (imo).

Opening stage (overseas version), Yammark stage, Shieldner Sheldon stage, INFINITY MIJINION stage, every single boss theme.
The terribleness of Ground Scaravich almost makes up for all that though.

There's an oversea version? Wait, mine is the oversea version.
...
There's an original version?  

I don't get it either, but it's the same logic that without raising questions can make a body completely vanish despite the weapon on its back still being completely intact and left behind in the place of the incident.

Maybe that's why he went missing and undercover? Lance Bean did a better job.

Yeah, and Brawl refers to Crystal Flash as Power Suit Samus.

Or how Zero Laser could've easily been Omega Cannon/Hyper Beam/Phazon Beam? Or how Pokemon Trainer's name should be Red (although his name is chosen, the same could be said about Link)? Or how they forgot to translate Black Knight's sword in his trophy description?
I dislike Brawl.  

Although in all fairness I didn't take that close a look at the X1-6 track list (I do have it lying around somewhere), so that was a good point.

Excusable though, since the final stage shows Sigma's mugshot instead of Zero's helmet.

[Satoryu]

Do you know what sort of sucked about X8? Every level was a gimmick. There weren't any normal levels with enemies. The closest to those are Pandemonium & Antonion, but they have ride armor through the whole level & buttons to make them abnormal. I like a few gimmick stages, like McWhalen & Dizzy from X5, but not all of the Mavericks'.

Most every stage in every game has some sort of gimmick. And although Pandemonium is a Ride Armor stage, you're not forced to use it.

[Tickle Buffalo]

The gimmicks in the earlier games aren't nearly as bad as in X8 though. If you take away the gimmicks in X8 you don't have any level left.

[Satoryu]

That's mostly true.

[Protoman Blues]

Yeah, and Brawl refers to Crystal Flash as Power Suit Samus.

Although in all fairness I didn't take that close a look at the X1-6 track list (I do have it lying around somewhere), so that was a good point.

Haha, move names & soundtrack listing are two completely different things.   

Well, that's what I think of X5's.

But, as said by others, I don't think a boss theme necessarily needs to go anywhere.  X3's is repetitive, and that's why I kicked it down lower (I hate X8's second part, too, so X2 is the only "dignified" theme that X3's outclasses in my book), but it is hard-rocking enough that it gets the blood pumping.  That, to me, is critical for a good fight theme (why do you think I'm so obsessed with Live And Learn in Smash?).

LoL, as I said, I can understand the dislike for X5's Theme.

X3's boss music was just terrible, especially when you compare it to...hell, just the SNES ones.  It doesn't even have any kind of good opening, it comes in at a pathetically 10 seconds of shortitude before looping, and is clearly a rush job when you compare it to the other SNES X games, both of which are double the size of the track.  Hell, to even bring up Live & Learn while trying to talk about X3's Boss Theme is mind blowing.  If you just take the opening 10 seconds of Live & Learn and loop it, it's still a better boss theme than X3's.  X3's Boss Theme has little to no drum work at all, and the BOSS 1 theme has better guitar work.  To me, there is absolutely nothing "hard-rocking" about the theme at all. 

[Bag of Magic Food]

Even the arranged version for the disc-based ports?

[Protoman Blues]

Even the arranged version for the disc-based ports?

If you mean the Saturn version, I will say that the Saturn X3 Boss Theme is indeed better than the SNES version Boss Theme.  So is the Boss 1/Boss Intro theme as well.....although it's actually longer than the actual boss theme....

[Hypershell]

I had not considered differing versions of the same music track when I made my list.  Otherwise we're missing the disc-based X3, both Xtremes, and MHX.  Should have probably snuck Command Mission in there somewhere too.

I have to admit I did kinda like the disc-based X3 boss intro, though.  There was something strangely hypnotic about it.

If you just take the opening 10 seconds of Live & Learn and loop it, it's still a better boss theme than X3's.

No argument here.

I think you're severely over-estimating my opinion of the X3 boss tune.  I ranked it 6th out of 9.  And numbers 8 and 9 on that list I considered garbage.  As I said earlier, X2 is the only "dignified" boss tune that I consider arguable as compared to X3.  And even in that instance there is no doubt in my mind that X2 is better composed than X3's trained monkey jingle, it's just a matter of how they fit as a boss BGM.

The difference is that X was revived at the end of X5, Inafune thought X5 was going to be the last one, and had to change Z1 to realign with X6.

Which was done prior to release.  And it is rather naive to assume that it is not normal for games to see storyline changes over the course of their development.  Hell, Copy X didn't even exist until the last month of development (estimated by Aizu, producer of the Zero series and president of IntiCreates).

Inafune didn't produce X5, either, so failure of its sequel to conform to Inafune's presuppositions isn't much of an argument.

It's a platformer where power ups usually only help you to apply less skill. I'm stereotyping the game, yes, but that's the point. Is it <i>my</i> fault as the gamer if the developers don't warn me beforehand?

Failure to conform to your own stereotype IS your fault and noone else's.  Your attitude towards power-ups is not only elitist but downright false.  We've already covered numerous other required instances of them in the franchise.  Not to mention we are talking about a franchise which debuted with an easily missed yet absolutely required power-up (which is, again, not the case in X6 as there is never one single power-up that is required, only one from a pool of other options).  I'm sorry but your argument couldn't be more weak.  EVERYTHING is possibly missed, and NOTHING is absolutely required.  You merely need one out of over half a dozen options.  That is more than adequate.

I'm playing the game normally, not handicapped, and yet I lose because the game's layout was poorly planned.

This argument is not applicable to Gate's Lab 2.  Disabling your default abilities is by definition handicapped.  Your default abilities in X6 are those of the Falcon Armor.  If you are playing Unarmored, you are playing handicapped.  Never from the first second of gameplay, under any circumstances whatsoever, is it ever necessary or advantageous to do so.  Even in X5 Unarmored X had benefits.  It has none in X6.  If you are playing unarmored and do not realize that you handicapped yourself, you are not paying attention.

But in the scenario in which we speak, it should be because there's really no good reason why it shouldn't be.

You realize that by such logic the very 2D nature of X8 is a game flaw?  Then there's the lack of charging and sliding in MM9.  Or the 1st-person angle in Metroid Prime.

If you are not a game developer then your opinion on how similar a sequel should be means nothing.  No amount of precedent invalidates the option of a new direction, ever.  Assuming otherwise only sets yourself up for failure.

Or I wanted to go back to the stage select? If I'm correct, pressing select brings you back to the title screen.

It's called, "Use Previous Data".  Jeez, man, you're criticizing over unexpected obstacles when you don't even know your way around the Load Game menu screen?

In X6's case, on the other hand, it's more of "oh, too bad, you're just unlucky."

Let's go over the checklist for this scenario:
-Did not complete Shadow Armor
-Did not complete Blade Armor
-Did not defeat Nightmare Zero
-Did not defeat Blizzard Wolfang
-Did not find Jumper
-Despite sucking this badly did not consider the Ultimate Armor code

You are permitted to remove one, and only one, of the latter 3.  Anything else invalidates the scenario.
That's pretty damn unlucky.

Again, I'm referring to Gate's Lab 1.  Your argument is invalid in Gate's Lab 2 as your default abilities get you through that.  Only through forsaking them do you get stuck.

I dislike Brawl.  

You are dead to me (barring the unlikely event that it's because of Mewtwo's absence).

Excusable though, since the final stage shows Sigma's mugshot instead of Zero's helmet.

That was my logic, yeah.

[AquaTeamV3]

There's an oversea version? Wait, mine is the oversea version.
...
There's an original version? 

The American version got a couple of guitar riffs, nothing really special.

[Satoryu]

It's called Zero Stage 2 because the final areas take place in Zero Space. The tracks probably should be called Zero Space Stage 1 & 2 in that case. But I do consider that stage a Sigma stage more than a Zero stage. And the RAVE is quite awesome.

[Protoman Blues]

I had not considered differing versions of the same music track when I made my list.  Otherwise we're missing the disc-based X3, both Xtremes, and MHX.  Should have probably snuck Command Mission in there somewhere too.

I have to admit I did kinda like the disc-based X3 boss intro, though.  There was something strangely hypnotic about it.

I wasn't considering them either.  I was mainly just answering his question.  And I have no problem with the BOSS 1/Boss Intro theme from X3 in either the SNES or Saturn version.  I like it a hell of a lot more than I like the X3 boss theme.

No argument here.

I think you're severely over-estimating my opinion of the X3 boss tune.  I ranked it 6th out of 9.  And numbers 8 and 9 on that list I considered garbage.  As I said earlier, X2 is the only "dignified" boss tune that I consider arguable as compared to X3.  And even in that instance there is no doubt in my mind that X2 is better composed than X3's trained monkey jingle, it's just a matter of how they fit as a boss BGM.

You know, we probably should make a separate topic to compare MM Soundtracks. 

[Keno]

Opening stage (overseas version), Yammark stage, Shieldner Sheldon stage, INFINITY MIJINION stage, every single boss theme.
The terribleness of Ground Scaravich almost makes up for all that though.

What is this specifying overseas version? Are there multiple versions of the opening stage of X6?

[Nekomata]

there's little noticeable difference.

[Rodrigo Shin]

What is this specifying overseas version? Are there multiple versions of the opening stage of X6?

As they said above, the US release just has a few guitar riffs on it. I concur it's not anything to write home about. Just a little extra touch.

[Soultrigger]

Hell, Copy X didn't even exist until the last month of development (estimated by Aizu, producer of the Zero series and president of IntiCreates).

Inafune didn't produce X5, either, so failure of its sequel to conform to Inafune's presuppositions isn't much of an argument.

Hmm, wasn't aware of the latter (I do know for a fact that the team was different, but not much else other than that). I'll give this one to you.

Failure to conform to your own stereotype IS your fault and noone else's.  Your attitude towards power-ups is not only elitist but downright false.  We've already covered numerous other required instances of them in the franchise.  Not to mention we are talking about a franchise which debuted with an easily missed yet absolutely required power-up (which is, again, not the case in X6 as there is never one single power-up that is required, only one from a pool of other options).  I'm sorry but your argument couldn't be more weak.  EVERYTHING is possibly missed, and NOTHING is absolutely required.  You merely need one out of over half a dozen options.  That is more than adequate.

So are you implying that we should excuse poor design because it's "different"?
Are we even on the right track? I'm not even talking about partless, unarmored X anymore. I've moved on to partless, Shadow X:

But is this exactly fair for players and fans who come into the game expecting it to be like the first 5 only to find they can't beat the second/third Gate stage as X without some form of air dash or "mobility" part? I know I was frustrated, going into the stage as <i>Shadow X</i> without the proper parts.

And I'm not even talking about doing a <b>handicapped run</b> here, but rather <b>a legitimate scenario.</b>

I'm playing the game <b>normally, not handicapped</b>

This argument is not applicable to Gate's Lab 2.  Disabling your default abilities is by definition handicapped.  Your default abilities in X6 are those of the Falcon Armor.  If you are playing Unarmored, you are playing handicapped.  Never from the first second of gameplay, under any circumstances whatsoever, is it ever necessary or advantageous to do so.  Even in X5 Unarmored X had benefits.  It has none in X6.  If you are playing unarmored and do not realize that you handicapped yourself, you are not paying attention.

Whoa, misunderstanding.
Same as above, I was talking about going through Gate's Lab 2 with Shadow Armor and without a Hyper Dash/etc. part.

If you are not a game developer then your opinion on how similar a sequel should be means nothing.  No amount of precedent invalidates the option of a new direction, ever.  Assuming otherwise only sets yourself up for failure.

I don't need to be a game designer to know that there's no point in including unnecessary flaws in my game intentionally.

It's called, "Use Previous Data".  Jeez, man, you're criticizing over unexpected obstacles when you don't even know your way around the Load Game menu screen?

Loading your file may be faster than through a game over.

I already admitted it was faster. I could care less. Would've saved me 2 minutes at most. The point is that I had to restart, whether I wanted to or not.

That's pretty damn unlucky.

Not really. Shadow Armor without a necessary part? Is that so hard to imagine?

Again, I'm referring to Gate's Lab 1.  Your argument is invalid in Gate's Lab 2 as your default abilities get you through that.  Only through forsaking them do you get stuck.

Why do you need to bring up Gate's Lab 1? I wasn't even complaining about Gate's Lab 1.

At least in the first Gate stage, they were nice enough to put the threshold at the beginning of the stage.

Gate Lab 1 is more reasonable in that you need the requirements to pass at the beginning. Versus, in Gate's Lab 2 (X), "if you don't have said requirements, you can't past part 2, forcing you to replay part 1 AND High Max."
Unless you're telling me it's possible to beat Gate's Lab 2 with Shadow X and no parts.

You are dead to me (barring the unlikely event that it's because of Mewtwo's absence).

I'm part of the "Melee>Brawl" people. Brawl is too much of a campfest. You can't even combo.  

[Fxeni]

Say, don't you need a part to get by that section with the Falcon armour as well? I'd check myself, but I lent the game to someone for a bit. Because if it did, it would pretty much invalidate one of Shelly's arguments, considering you can't even get by that segment with the so-called default for X without a part.

[Gotham Ranger]

I was gonna ask if it was totally okay to come in here and just quote Flame Hyenard.

Then I remembered this was an X8 topic.

Can I quote Burn Cock instead?

[Flame]

KAW!

[Keno]

ITT Soultrigger complains about X6 being too hard

I mean really, Hyper Dash is easily equivalent to the Magnet Beam. If you don't like it, maybe you just don't Mega Man fully, & that offends me.

[Soultrigger]

Say, don't you need a part to get by that section with the Falcon armour as well? I'd check myself, but I lent the game to someone for a bit. Because if it did, it would pretty much invalidate one of Shelly's arguments, considering you can't even get by that segment with the so-called default for X without a part.

Interesting. I would try it out, but believe it or not, I'm not allowed to play during the weekdays and I'm very busy with school.  
Maybe I'll record it on a weekend, if I remember/care enough.

ITT Soultrigger complains about X6 being too hard

I mean really, Hyper Dash is easily equivalent to the Magnet Beam. If you don't like it, maybe you just don't Mega Man fully, & that offends me.

Way to misinterpret me. I'm not complaining about the difficulty, but rather the polish of the game itself. To me, X6 is a cakewalk. >_> (after much memorization, of course).
Also, I've already stated that, although you can skip Magnet Beam "accidentally," you cannot skip the screen with it, meaning you, <b>at the very least</b>, have been shown the item.
IMHO, Mega Man can't be compared to X6 very well. X6 is significantly more open-ended than Mega Man, so things in X6 may or may not be optional, forcing the player to find out what they need.

I'm sorry for being totally off-topic from X8. But if someone tries to argue against me, I can't simply say "okay, you're right" when I don't even agree. I'd like to cut the argument short, but I'm pretty firm with my position.

...

Just to clear up confusion:
From what I see, Hypershell is arguing that in order to attempt a minimalistic run, the player needs to be aware of the limits and rules of such a run. Otherwise, it's the player's fault for being insufficiently prepared during any part of the run. He also argues that any sequel never has to rely on any precedents made from previous installments.
To be perfectly clear, I <b>agree</b> with these statements.

What I'm arguing (which seems to be constantly misunderstood) is that X6 is flawed because, in a specific and inconvenient spot in the game, the player may forcibly lose due to a fault from the developers. This instance occurs:
-During Gate's Lab 2, part 2 as X
-When X is either Unarmored, Shadow, or possibly Falcon
-When X is not equipped with a part that enhances his mobility (e.g. Hyper Dash)
-You don't use exploits like aerial Magma Blade to increase distance
Unlike Gate's Lab 1, this occurs in the middle of part 2 and, IIRC, restarting the stage forces you to replay part 1 <b>and</b> High Max.

[Hypershell]

So are you implying that we should excuse poor design because it's "different"?

"Poor" is a term that relates to one's expectations, especially in your case if what I've read is any indication.  There is no standardized scale in entertainment.  Whether or not warnings prior to hazards are merited, and to what degree, is up to personal preference.

I've moved on to partless, Shadow X

Shadow X again forsakes default abilities, that being the air-dash.  It's not something to give up so recklessly.

You were a stickler about expecting X5-to-X6 similarities, so I'll give you one: Shadow is X6's equivalent to Gaia Armor.  Gaia Armor hampered your default abilities by slowing your dash speed, which made Zero Virus Stage 1 very nearly impossible, and far more tedious than I care to repeat despite my love of Gaia.  Shadow, likewise, does the same in its lacking an air-dash, a feature which X6 utilizes far more than X5 did.  It's the tradeoff for your spike immunity and insane power (Gaia's buster raped bosses, if you recall).  However, unlike Gaia, Shadow doesn't cancel Power-Up Parts, so you can compensate.  An option which X5 did not provide.

Shadow is a trade-off in lacking abilities you started the game with.  Such should not be taken recklessly.

Why do you need to bring up Gate's Lab 1?

As far as I am concerned Shadow Armor is understood as partially handicapped for reasons I described above, therefore I did not consider Gate's Lab 2 relevant to discussions of a run which you specifically described as not handicapped.  Your last post wasn't very specific in which part of the game you were complaining about.  You "moved past" unarmored X complaints but the specific point at which you did so was not clear to me.

[Protoman Blues]

There is no standardized scale in entertainment. 

Because if they were, we wouldn't have such awful movies like Catwoman.