What did Lumine mean?

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Offline Align

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Reply #175 on: July 28, 2009, 03:55:32 PM
Well, you buy upgrades with it, so as far as the game is concerned it's a currency. But I see what you mean - in-world is not the same thing.



Offline Flame

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Reply #176 on: July 28, 2009, 04:16:23 PM
More like materials. you need a certain amount of materials to build the part.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Acrosurge

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Reply #177 on: July 28, 2009, 04:34:11 PM
This brings up another DNA related question:  In X6, Gate discovered a piece of Zero and continually makes reference to Zero's DNA.  Was he referring to DNA Program, DNA Soul, or something completely different?

Also, the Guardians in the Mega Man Zero series are said to be derived from X's DNA.  Which kind of DNA would that be?  Given the above examples, and since Axl copies DNA data to change his body, wouldn't the function of reploid DNA be analogous to human DNA?  If it were so, this would facilitate the self-repair abilities some reploids have displayed as well as a reploid's ability to grow from a childlike body into an adult one.



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Offline Align

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Reply #178 on: July 28, 2009, 04:49:30 PM
More like materials. you need a certain amount of materials to build the part.
Parts made out of souls?



Offline Flame

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Reply #179 on: July 28, 2009, 04:56:46 PM
Reploids have artificial DNA. Nanotechnology. is that so far fetched?

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Zan

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Reply #180 on: July 28, 2009, 05:02:25 PM
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In X6, Gate discovered a piece of Zero and continually makes reference to Zero's DNA.  Was he referring to DNA Program, DNA Soul, or something completely different?

A "DNA soul" is a DNA program, the operational DNA (as in their mind). But Gate only had the body, meaning all DNA programs except his soul's.

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Also, the Guardians in the Mega Man Zero series are said to be derived from X's DNA.  Which kind of DNA would that be?

Same case, all DNA of the body, not the soul.

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Parts made out of souls?

Iris says they supply "energy" for the creation of parts.



Offline Thanatos-Zero

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Reply #181 on: July 28, 2009, 05:38:17 PM
A "DNA soul" is a DNA program, the operational DNA (as in their mind). But Gate only had the body, meaning all DNA programs except his soul's.
Good to know.

It seems Livemetal has not just the DNA Program but the DNA Soul as well. However besides of the share of knowledge and the DNA modifikation on the host, there seems no temporary merge of the consciousness of host and livemetal into one, or is it just me with that assumption?



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Reply #182 on: July 28, 2009, 05:57:36 PM
Good to know.

It seems Livemetal has not just the DNA Program but the DNA Soul as well. However besides of the share of knowledge and the DNA modifikation on the host, there seems no temporary merge of the consciousness of host and livemetal into one, or is it just me with that assumption?
The host's individuality and personality remains intact, but can be influenced and overridden if the Livemetal wills it.  I think Serpent would be a good example of a livemetal user being controlled by a livemetal.



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Offline Align

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Reply #183 on: July 28, 2009, 08:45:35 PM
Reploids have artificial DNA. Nanotechnology. is that so far fetched?
Iris says they supply "energy" for the creation of parts.
Yes yes, it's just no fun that way.

Posted on: 2009-07-28, 20:42:16
Same case, all DNA of the body, not the soul.
You sure? They don't have any bodily features that make me think of X (of course, it would've been a different X from the one we know...), but they do all tend towards desiring justice.
I suppose that's not an X-exclusive mindset though.



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Reply #184 on: July 29, 2009, 12:13:47 AM
Parts made out of souls?
Using DNA data to power-up Reploids isn't unheard of outside of Xtreme2.  It is something of a specialty, but the knowledge is out there.  In X5 you get parts and Life/Weapon Ups from high-level bosses.  In X7, Axl notes "somebody" (Sigma) using DNA data to power up Red Alert, at the same time noting that nobody within Red Alert had that ability.  And, as Zan already provided, Zero's learning system works on a similar principle.  As we can all observe in gameplay, Zero does not directly copy the foe's power but rather creates a derivative to fit with his own abilities.  The same can be said of X's VWS, albeit usually to a lesser extent.



No observable power difference? How do we even know how a regular X2 boss Zero would fight? Really any difference you're observing in the X4 flashbacks lies with endurance and melee strength. With him not using his buster in the flashback and him not using melee in X2, you have no comparison between. For all we know X4 flashback Zero and X1 Zero have the exact same buster output. Much like X2 Zero and X2 boss Zero. For all we know X2 boss Zero has improved endurance and melee strength, much like the flashback Zero.

All in all, there is no aberration because there is no comparison to be made.
I never made a comparison between X4 flashback and X2.  My comparison is between X4 and MHX, and between X5 Awakened and X5 non-Awakened, each mutually exclusive.  I never claimed the same medium was used between them, you're putting words in my mouth.

For X2, we can gauge how a regular boss Zero would fight based on the attacks we see regular Zero using.  He splits the ground with Earth Crush and he attacks with an identical Double Charge Wave.  If anything, his initial attack on his clone is a bit faster than what we normally see out of him, but that can of course be dismissed as cutscene pacing.

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I do believe that MarshmallowMan has a point in that Wily is indeed helping others with World Domination, even if he himself no longer actively tries.
I acknowledge the same.  I simply take the lack of activity that you stated as being indicative of the world being irrelevant.  Just because you don't want to dominate it doesn't necessarily mean you want to keep others from doing so.  Sigma and Gate work with the Virus, which is part of Wily's work, so his casting his lot with them for the sake of his plans for Zero is perfectly justified without the need for further motives that we never see him working towards.

Much of this thread, as frequently happens when I go toe-to-toe with Marshmallow, is less about fact and more about differing interpretation thereof.  There's no real way to confirm or deny either end, we just take turns explaining ourselves until one of us gets bored.

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DR. W LASTNo ZERO
DR. W. NO INFINITY

How does that refer to Dr. Vile at all?

It doesn't, you misunderstood me.  By "his" registry, I meant Zero's, that is, his Wily number.  My point is, so what?  Sigma knows that Zero is the last of the Wily Numbers, and that was a couple centuries ago.  That knowledge in and of itself does not reveal an understanding of Zero's true nature.  Sigma himself is proof to the point, as despite whatever he knows about Zero's background, things still don't go as he expects.  Knowing Zero's registry number doesn't mean that you know his personality.

As for Wily linkage, history from 21XX onward seems oblivious.  After all, nobody notices giant W's in the background.  Who knows, between Wily's last attempted conquest and his death, perhaps the world no longer thought of him as threatening.  Again, there are possibilities of reform, as shown by Quint's future.

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Neo Arcadia hid Dr. Vile's sin. The history of the Elf Wars was covered up. That is what Phantom learned. The events leading up to Elf Wars are not hidden; Zero's Wily origin is known, the fact that Zero is a copy, is not. Phantom refers to the fact that Zero being a mere copy has no right being called a hero.
That's exactly why Zero's true nature (by that I am referring to his dark persona, not to his Wily origin) shouldn't be posted on the wall.  However, even the surviving Big Four seem unaware of any link between Zero and Omega.  I suppose it's conceivable that Harpuia would keep quiet, though...

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Gate's goal is the EXACT same as Dr. Wily's himself. Wily was exiled for the nature of his experiments as people did not recognize his genius compared to Right's. Why would he not fly with his own ambition?
If he's not getting the recognition, it's not his own ambition.  That's my point.

It's true that they are similar.  However, there is a difference in that Wily favors more jealousy than vengeance.  Wily perceives an injustice solely due to his lack of recognition.  Gate, however, had actual malicious acts committed against him and his creations.  Public pressure due to paranoia, false Maverick accusations, and murder, which Alia unknowingly participated in.

Also on DeviantArt, Rumble, DLive.tv, and the Fediverse (@freespeechextremist.com and @bae.st)


Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #185 on: September 28, 2009, 10:20:45 PM
I've been waiting to have the time to devote to this properly. Finally, game on!

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Also, "who we are" in spite of memories/goals is a philosophical debate, so I'm not touching that.

Well, it is relevant. Besides which...

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Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master.  What's left?

You brought it up, man.

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I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX

Such difference is intangible. MHX Zero can jump the full length and height of the screen, and make a single dash from one end to the other. He can perform flaming drop kicks and ground pounding energy attacks, and when incensed can even lay out a volley of consecutive charge shots that rivals X6's overdrive. He is also shown to catch Sigma's arm during mid-strike from close range. All he's really incapable of doing is escaping from Sigma's deadly headlock, something he still has trouble with in X8 and we've not shown that flashback Zero can do any better with the move.

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which leaves X2 as the only aberration.  Zero uses identical moves in X2 whether fighting him or not.

Regardless of X4, it's rather clear that the X2 "awakening" is not the same as the X5 Awakening.

X5 is just as anomalous for being the only instance where Zero is exposed to an entire space colony of virus energy. Zero gets a power boost from virus energy regardless of his personality, as also established in X5, so the vast difference expressed is how much virus energy Zero has ingested. That same kind of virus in an energy body is a rare thing in X2, thus presumably his mode of awakening in that title is more directly related to hardware alteration to his brain, a patch or chip that could be destroyed by X to return him to normal, and leave him without memory of what had occurred and what he knew and believed while he was under that influence. It is also congruent with Wily's actions in MM&B, if at first you don't succeed, turn up the brainwashing level... Or more accurately in Zero's case, turn back to who he was made to be. Therefore in X5, a different method of awakening, and perhaps a better one.

Zero's newly resurrected form in X2 may only have a few core techniques at his disposal, so it doesn't seem strange that they share moves. Things like floating and glowing power auras don't appear in X4's flashback scene, those were also X5 evil Zero firsts too. It would have been interesting to see how a MHX2 would address this.

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To establish that world domination goals exist in Zero's programming...

Is as impossible as establishing that hatred for X is hard-coded into him without being expressly told. And that misses the point. If Zero is to be obsessed only with proving himself better than X, he is doomed to repeat Forte's fate of sometimes being at odds with his own creator's plans. If Zero wanted to dominate the world, it would be the same King debacle again, only tenfold.  Wily didn't seek for Zero to rule the world, he wanted to rule it himself. Zero is to help him do it by following his orders, and being a brutal wrecker who loves destruction and wouldn't mind at all if the whole world goes to hell. That a virus-like program within him can be tweaked to influence nearly any robot is also a pretty convenient tool. Zero is to be used to whatever ends his creator sees fit. Zero is a tool to be used, and as Inafune expressed, Weil used that tool as well.

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...a statement must be made at or following his completion.  We have no such statement.

Only when we ignore Sigma. Sigma has been the most vocal proponent of evil Zero since X2. The hints he gives on Zero's true nature, whom he should follow and who is his enemy, Zero's forgotten episode of their shared past, explaining that deep down Zero wants to destroy even his friends like Colonel and Iris, the revelation that the virus purifies him, even that deep down he must know his own father, and finally, the exposition that it could have been, would have been Zero ringing in the death of the old world, into a new age.

And Sigma's testimony in this case should not likely be dismissed easily. The Rockman X8 Kyuukyoku Complete Guide states on page 8:
イレギュラー状態のゼロを捕まえたのは、当時ハンターだったシグマ。ゼロの正体に関しては不明点が多いが、最もその秘密を把握していると思われるのがシグマだ。
The one who captured Zero in his Irregular state was none other than Sigma, who at that time was a Hunter. There are many uncertain questions regarding Zero's true form, but it seems Sigma himself has the greatest understanding of those secrets.

Sigma has a unique perspective on Zero. Sigma has integrated viral code from Zero, and has partnered with Zero's creator (and among all those who have done his bidding, only X2 Zero and X5's shadowy Wily are ever called his partners). Sigma has the most experience with Zero's original self, and has tried as much as anyone to bring it to the forefront. He is a valuable source of insight.

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Sigma knows that Zero is the last of the Wily Numbers, and that was a couple centuries ago.  That knowledge in and of itself does not reveal an understanding of Zero's true nature.  Sigma himself is proof to the point, as despite whatever he knows about Zero's background, things still don't go as he expects.

Sigma's knowing of Zero's Wily Numbers status is significant as a demonstration of his rare knowledge. How he came about it is unknown. At current neither does it appear Cain, nor the Hunters, nor even Zero himself seems aware of this detail. Not even Gate has mentioned it, hard to say whether he knows. Wherever such knowledge has come from, it does not come simply as common knowledge to everyone who works on Zero. As such the reappearance of it in the Zero series demonstrates a greater understanding of Zero's past and perhaps his body than has been known to anyone outside of Wily and Sigma for the known series beforehand.

But while Sigma has knowledge of Zero's inner evil and its purpose, he does not have full understanding of Zero the hero. And for that matter, there is nothing to show that Zero's own creator understands. The two working together in X5 both fail at returning Zero to his intended self. For them, evil is stronger than the weak old justice Zero clings to, and the knowledge of his pure evil self should well overshadow that which he believed in as a Hunter (and in one X5 scenario, it does for a short time). So why does Zero cling so vehemently to the side of good? If they understood, perhaps they wouldn't have tried in the first place.

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Power Fighters is only to be expected, it's in-character for Wily at that time.  But if he wanted the world, he could have had it, all he had to do was unleash Zero before X was ready.  Why wait?

Certainly crushing an opponent who can defend himself proves more than killing someone in their sleep or stabbing them in the back. Of course, Nintendo logic always dictated that the bosses wait in their rooms to engage in open combat.

Even so, that makes it sound as if unleashing Zero before X was ready was a simple task. Wily's own estimation was that Zero's completion was a long way off as of PF. If anything like Light's timetable for X, Wily could well be too old, too weak, or even too dead to rule the world by the time Zero is finished. Old age can be quite a hell, and ruling the planet a difficult task between naps and pill schedules, all while vying for control over one's own bowels. In musing, perhaps his own heart wasn't able to take the strain of his excitement as Zero drew ready, Wily suffering a fatal stroke at his own wicked glee, his finger poised over the ON switch. A sadder idea, maybe Wily dared not chance unveiling Zero while he still lived, for fear his life's greatest masterpiece turned out to be as much of a failure as his other creations. I doubt he'd be so pessimistic about his greatest achievement. Nothing in Wily's shown attitude demonstrates that Wily counted on or considered Zero losing.

Including the suggestion that Wily would make Zero a friendly personality so that X would not destroy him. Better ideas might be to spray one's enemy with an evil virus upon defeat. Better still, kamikaze up and take your enemy down with you (a la Zero against Vile's ride armor). If survival is the focus over winning, simply apologizing and begging for his life would perhaps have been enough, it got Wily through many a tight scrape. To actually make a secondary personality that would take over based on damage taken and subsequently be extremely difficult to re-submerge is so counter productive that maybe only someone truly mad would think it's a good idea. In truth such would be no guarantee anyway, and hinge much better success only if the two were established as friends beforehand. The proper way to pull off such a devious deed, as Double demonstrates in X4, is by introducing the good personality first in order to endear yourself, which is hardly the case when Zero was discovered. But this doesn't even require a true personality swap, only the intent to deceive. Forte did it thus as well. Then switching sides from an order would be infinitely simpler than the ordeal X5 awakening must go through. And for all that, the secondary personality becomes a limiter when actually engaged. If the battle is close and both sides take damage, Zero would wimp out instead of giving the final blow, preventing the ultimate victory he could have otherwise achieved. In this scenario the X5 Awakening outcome is 100% Wily's own fault. Zero recovered faster, but it was the wrong Zero, and thus the day was lost.

Classic series Wily has often had some bone-headed schemes that do imply he has a screw or two loose, and his webs of deceit always fall apart by the end. Even so I give him more credit than to have ever thought this was the way to go, but still bungled it so completely. More likely his plan was for an evil Zero to emerge and conquer without ever becoming a friend of X, but with his work time was simply not on his side. Which incidentally may also address any lack of full optimization in Zero's X1 or flashback forms. Of further interest is whether Wily's robotic rebirth was also on his agenda back then. Perhaps Zero also needed to wait for Wily himself to be ready, as well as for himself and for his opponent to be.

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Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask.  If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.

It is the exact same can of worms. The important feature is the premise itself, not in how the details play out. That is that Weil used portions of the same personality program for Omega that Wily wrote for Zero. The suggested use of imagination exists around demonstrating the truth of that link. There are many many ways it can play out, that the connection can be perceived, and using either a little of the code or a lot, but only one scenario flat-out denies the connection, and that route is not what Inti would lead us to believe.

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From a storytelling standpoint I don't buy that as being a viable explanation.  If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans.

I don't agree with "outdid." More like Weil fulfilled Wily's dream to some extent. To control the world, using Zero and the virus. If Weil couldn't create a better perfect evil soldier personality program than what Wily had made centuries ago, that is a huge compliment to Wily. No stand-alone program Weil could create could utilize Zero's body and power as efficiently as Zero's own original skillful mind. Some alterations to adjust for a few centuries of advancement and an increase in general destructive power, and the ultimate big bad robot is ready to take down the future establishment. Wily tried to do the same thing within the X series.

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Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation, I also find the power scale to favor AZ over Omega.

Once again, so very arguable. Canonically, Omega is a demon of unmeasurable power. A final strike from X and Zero didn't kill him. His re-emergence on the Earth opens tears in the fabric of cyberspace. Despite not using his unarmored form in who knows how long, Omega rockets out of his shell, battle ready. His sprite even has a shiny pixelated aura of power. He has the largest array of techniques that any CPU-controlled Zero has ever brought to the table.  The Rockman Zero 3 Kouryakubon asserts that the third form is an even stronger enemy than the previous two, despite the armors and the Dark Elf imbued powers, and that difference in strength is explained when realizing that Zero himself bested those forms. Zero's battle skill is at the heart of this beast. Thanks to a dash of retconning, even his explosion is beautiful, taking out the remaining Shitennou with him, just by dying . Even then his power still haunts the world some 200 years after his demise. Omega in no way shames the evil Zero's legacy.

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AZ has the Genmurei, Shin Messenko, Shin Getsurin.  Omega lacks such enhancements, your own attack translations actually confirming his use of the inferior Messenko.

Omega's move that's labeled Messenko isn't much like the one from X5 (though Model OX's is). The move may have been adapted over time to suit Zero's own needs, power levels, and finesse, perhaps similar to how Hunter Zero and Awakened Zero of X5 and Zero Nightmare of X6 have adapted Messenko into Shin Messenko. Over such an expanse, there may not really be any need to differentiate the move he currently uses with a special prefix or suffix for the sake of long winded-ness. Unlike X5-era, where the change is noticeable and new... For who knows how long, that move has been dubbed simply Messenko by he.

I can't help but smile at Messenko being labeled inferior, though. The normal 9-blast Messenko of X5 would have been much harder to dodge than the CPU Zeros' 8-blast Shin Messenko. Despite its name it really is a nerfed version that allows the player a more sporting chance. Of course Omega's moves are realistically nerfed too, and that doesn't mean that they aren't canonically more powerful than gameplay makes them appear. It is a fuzzy transition from story to gameplay.

Awakened Zero's Genmurei is a cool ass move, but Zero Nightmare's Genmurei-kai version makes me think that the move itself is probably not meant to be as canonically powerful as gameplay made it appear in X5. Adding "Kai" under normal circumstances would imply that the revision is an improvement upon the former, but this seems to be the opposite if evaluated simply from gameplay. I conjecture that its canonical form lies somewhere less than invincible instant kill move, but was utilized in gameplay to give added challenge by adding a time limit to the battle. The lesson is hardly that evil is stronger than good, or that Awakened Zero is invincible. Omega, merged with the Dark Elf, would have even more right to be invincible, but unwinnable situations don't really make for fun games.  Genmurei is X5 Awakened Zero's most powerful attack, but it may not necessarily be Zero's best or favorite for all time. It's possible it wouldn't be useful in some situations or against some enemies. He might also wait to use the move because he doesn't like using it, and practices it only out of desperation to end the battle. Perhaps it would have left him drained and tired afterwards, a sitting duck if he missed too much. Gameplay doesn't let him miss (except with Ultimate Armor, but it won't let X win in any event, as we aren't meant to see what occurs when evil succeeds, it is always a dead end).

That Omega doesn't use it might be a bit disappointing, but not seeing him using Genmurei or Shingetsurin doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it. Just like CPU Ultimate X in X5 not using Nova Strike or many of his other X4 or even X5 special moves doesn't necessarily mean he can't. Dealing with characters who have such vast arsenals, not everything will get used. Additionally, Omega's first and second forms too are shown with much greater attack potential than their battle CPUs make use of. What enters into gameplay is but one aspect of such a character.

If Omega did use Genmurei, it would either be nerfed so as to allow for the game to be winnable, or would force another time-limit related system. Z4 shows Inti is not opposed to this, but their countdowns always involve a timer in the corner, and without a plot context for the timer it probably wouldn't make sense to be there. It could also be pretty frustrating for players who already had to work through 2 forms of final boss to get where they are. Omega's not using it sidesteps the question of how to implement it properly. Still, if Omega had used it, would that really prove the case he is Zero's evil persona? Copy X can Nova Strike, and Zero Nightmare has a Genmurei version. These are techniques, like Ryuuenjin or Messenko. How honestly can a technique Zero hasn't used before X5 be directly related to his original personality which was programmed before Zero even acquires the weapon which he would use to perform it?

An alternate theory of Genmurei is that it is an adapted version of Sougenmu, Zero's Soul Body counterpart from the thorny rose man, applied and channeled into his weapon.  An adapted technique, like Shin Messenko. Under this hypothesis Denjinrei is adapted from Denjin, and Shingetsurin from Mikazukizan (or Danchien some have argued, though Grizzly's move is more accepted). These moves then would be a reflection of Zero's Learning ability, powered up and unleashed. Not something forgotten and remembered, but something new and dynamic. Zero Nightmare's Genmurei version and spiral shot/wide shot preference over Shingetsurin may show that such ability evolutions can take different directions. Perhaps Omega (and Inti clearly) developed his repertoire with a fair number of long range attacks, but with a far more up close and personal style in mind.  Which is more in line with how we saw the original Zero behave in the X4 flashback.

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However, as I said above, I consider it probable that Wily caught on to that, which would explain oddities in Zero's personality, both why it emerged in the first place and why it was never eliminated by his creator.  Domination puts Zero on the wrong side of the fence, but a rivalry, as is Wily's self-stated focus in X4, does not lend itself to either good or evil.  And an honorable rivalry can be a great source of power, hence Zero challenging X openly (EXE manga touches on this same concept with Bass Cross MegaMan).  But only to one's self, not to the rest of the world.

Rivalry as an inspiration can be positive or negative. Wily's rivalry with Light took him to very dark places. His selfish and evil actions throughout classic, including theft, kidnapping, destruction and mayhem at times put the entire world at risk. And for all that, he never won in the end. Same with Forte, whose serious rivalry with Rock at times brings him to fighting on the side of good and the side of evil, but whose determination to keep trying to glorify himself refuses to waiver. All his rivalry never gave him the strength to beat Rockman. Challenging Rockman to open combat never gave him any edge. His intent, like Wily's, is selfish. It is the ones who fight selflessly for the good of others, like Rock and X, who have the ethical advantage.

Bass Cross Megaman (manga) does not use rivalry as a source of power, rather it is the foundation of their ability to converge, but ONLY in the presence of a mutual enemy which threatens Bass' ultimate bout with his preferred nemesis. Bass and Megaman were both already navis with immense power and potential, and BxM's power is fueled by the fusion of these strong navis. By nature of their teamwork, by nature of their mutual struggle against fully destructive entities, BxM's power is not dark. Bass himself is evil, but his rivalry with Megaman, which began with a passing interest and grew into determination to defeat Megaman personally and conquer the challenge he represents, then yielded for him the unexpected result of intense feeling of connection to another being, giving Bass a new dream, a stake in the world, and a person whom he must fight to protect. This rivalry is what eventually redeems him when he himself is required to sacrifice to save the Earth. A strong rivalry can inspire good acts from evil men, or conversely deplorable amoralities in good men. However, it does not trump one's fighting power in and of itself, or the good vs evil moral nature that prevails in the series' heroes. 

In applying this to Zero, I am at a loss to make sense of what you suggest. Setting out to kill X in X5 is an evil act. Regardless of whether Awakened Zero is setting out to do so because he personally harbors the deep desire to destroy X and X alone (though he himself never suggests this as a reason) or whether he is simply following the given order of his creator, attacking X who is pacifistic by nature but defends others when necessary... is a pure aggressor stance. Standing in support of another itself is a wrongful act if the one you are supporting is evil, which was what all that extra worrying and brainpower in X was meant to recognize. Being ignorant or apathetic to one's evil deed, either by naivety or done willfully, does not change the nature of the act itself as evil, or the force of the one opposing such atrocities as good.

A positive rivalry is the kind which X and Hunter Zero share, one in which feelings of faith and respect mutually inspires two people to become better, become stronger, become more than they currently are and deal with difficult situations with courage. This exists without animosity or malice towards one another, no intention to harm or kill the other to prove their own superiority. A bond not immediate, but grown over time and experience.

I don't understand the suggested mixture of this with Wily's intentions. A noble spirit with an evil deed forced upon it has a better chance of resisting its duty, i.e. creating hesitation and doubt which results in the fialure of said task, or alternately, outright rejecting the task itself on its amoral vice. To take on the task fully, the noble spirit must tolerate darkness into its heart, in which case the noble heart is weakened of its virtue, or even lost altogether in darkness, righteous no longer.

This contradiction doesn't create power, it creates inner conflict. It's a weakness, and an added hurdle towards the evil deed that desired to be done. In that it could certainly explain good Zero's triumph over evil Zero, but not why good Zero is there to begin with, that is, why Wily would ever find such a situation to be desirable as to have Zero's own heart work against itself and his purpose.

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Many MegaMan series emphasize the power of the heart, and it's on those grounds which Bass, Zero's predecessor, is most frequently criticized.

Those critiques from Rock and Blues are actually appeals to Forte's intelligence and sense of justice, to abandon selfish pursuits and fruitless aggressions and stop working with Wily altogether. They are never things that Wily himself identifies as a problem with Forte. Wily's problems with Forte, seen in PB, PF and R&F, have always been primarily his failure to defeat Rockman (not strong enough) and his pompous disobedient attitude (doesn't listen to orders). Wily is not seeking further betrayals, thus a robot with a just and righteous heart is counterproductive to Wily's desires. The unfortunate scenario for him is that the smarter he makes his robots, the more thoughtful, independent and unreliable for his purposes they tend to become. From this, the need for an empirically evil but obedient robot comes into play.

There is also no indication that Wily himself believes good to be more powerful than evil in the first place, lest he may have truly realized the error of his ways and surrendered his evil ambitions ever after.

But the final line from Forte's ending in Rockman 2 The Power Fighters is:
せいぎがあるかぎり、
ワイリーのやぼうはつづく!
As long as there is justice, Wily's evil ambition continues!

That does not foreshadow Wily's dark intentions to change any time soon. Nor does Rockman Perfect Memories on page 60, regarding Zero.
はたして、誰と戦うために彼は造られたのか?決して正義のためとは思えないのだが......。
Really, with whom was he created to fight? It seems certain that it was by no means for the sake of justice, but...

...but Zero's a become good guy. Not by Wily's intentions. As Sigma mentioned in X5,
おまえにことにやたらくわしいろうじんがいてな... いまのゼロは、ほんもののゼロではない...そんなオモシロイことをいうのだよ...
"There is an old man who knows a great deal about you... The present Zero, is not the real Zero... That's the sort of interesting subject he spoke about."

Wily does not consider the current Zero to be the true Zero, and his heroic actions are those of a confused damaged persona which Wily is actually trying to heal back to his dark self. Wily did not intend to create a hero any more than he acts as one himself.

By Wily's behavior in the X series, evil is still a huge part of his countenance. We meet Serges in X2, who is hard at work churning out robots with evil chips installed, very much the same m.o. as he worked in the entire classic series. He's plotting the downfall of the work of Dr. Light, and he's also head of an evil trio that actively carries out the assassinations of skilled Hunters. He's aligned himself with the greatest robot warlord to yet exist, who also happens to be exposed to a variant virus-like program of Wily's very own handiwork, and now his very body is such a product as well.

In X5, Wily seems to be about the most evil he has ever been. A co-conspirator in the plan to cause cataclysmic events in both global spreading of the virus and crashing a giant space colony into the Earth. The level of destruction and extinction brought on here is unparalleled to anything Wily has ever had a hand in before. Only Super Adventure Rockman really compares, but there Wily firmly believed he was in control of the electromagnetic waves and would not have let all life on Earth run to extinction, where here once set into motion the chain reaction takes on a life of its own, and all fate is relinquished to the actions of the Hunters. And not only is he fine with it, but it seems to have been his idea at the very start.

Sigma continues in X5
そのろうじんのすすめで...ウィルスを地球とコロニーに、ばらまいて...
"On that old man's recommendation... I scattered the virus over the Earth and the Colony..."

The X series brings out Wily's evil in full swing. Zero's fragmented memories and dreams well give the impression of a man who still seeks destruction, who still seeks vengeance, who still lusted after bringing the globe to its knees. Wily changing heart in his later life is well out of sync with his actions before and after. Even the shaky ground of Three Keys agrees with that much, Wily set out to build a purely evil destructive robot.

Inafune weighed in, Sigma and Zero are victims of circumstance in the changing of allegiances. They demonstrate the annulment of absolutes, there is good in Zero and there is evil in Sigma, and the right circumstances can completely turn the tables and topple even the best laid plans.

In all that is left, the most compelling reason I can think of to say that Wily had a change of heart is the story of Quint's future. And yet the very nature of time travel as it applies to the series in Mega World and R&F WS, tell that both the past and the future can be changed through the actions of time travelers. Thus the future timeline of Quint is likely undone by his own return to the past. Because Wily reformed there does not mean he will in this new timeline, where current hints point that he did not.

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If Wily is interested in the aspirations of the likes of Gate and Sigma, will he not betray them eventually if they are no longer needed?  If so then the fact that we didn't observe such a betrayal in unsuccessful scenarios is moot.  World domination only leaves room for one at the top.  But Gate and Sigma have alterior motives to simply ruling.  Sigma, to exterminate humanity for the future of Reploids.  Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him.  How long do you think Wily would fly with that?

We may ask what it is that Wily finds appealing about ruling the world in the first place. Does he truly wish to rule and govern, to become a political figure and statesman, sit in on cabinet meetings and economic trade committees drafting laws and reforms, weighing legal cases in courts and proceedings in everything from civic planning to propaganda... or is his ambition more of a power trip?  The global recognition of his genius and submission to his whims, the privileged status, the idea that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, these are likely what he is after. Making robots is what he loves, and using those robots to tear down the establishment of fools who don't recognize his genius and enforce his own will is his ideal kingship. When it comes down to the daily bureaucratic grind, enforcing the law and running the ordinary show for the entire world, he's going to have to delegate some responsibilities either to robots or humans who suck up enough to be trusted.

Sigma recognizes Wily's genius. Wily is a scientist who can advance the state of reploids as Sigma wishes. If Sigma gives Wily the right props and keeps him supplied with whatever resources Wily desires, if he is open to ideas Wily has about how the world should be run better, would Wily then be satisfied?

And, would Wily be bothered if the human race were exterminated? He has always seemed to prefer the company of robots over people. Since he himself has shed his human form for a robot's, has he also shed his sympathy for humanity? The humans whose history has chosen Light's work to be revered over his own? Judging from the X5 incident where he is willing to put all life on Earth in harm's way for his joint venture with Sigma, what little conscience he may have had in the matter is now dwarfed by his ambition.

Gate, a fellow scorned inventor, Wily may even look upon as a successor in some ways. He has inherited and made "improvements" to the Zero DNA code with Isoc's own aid, and perhaps can be viewed as Wily's protege. Wily has never had a "son" that wasn't a fighting robot, but a scientist to follow in his own footsteps... The world these two could create together as a joint legacy of older and younger generation mad scientists can still well be a world Wily takes pride in. In a large way, using the Zero DNA code to rule the world proves Wily's boast a century ago in PF's Forte ending, that his invention had the power to humble and reign in the world itself. Even if it needed a little tune-up after 100 years or so.

Thus the idea that Wily legitimately joins forces with both these characters is not at all unbelievable. The idea that he did not make a legitimate effort to aid them, or the idea that he would have betrayed them following the success of the joint plans to rule alone, while both within range of possibility, are not supported by Wily's observed words or actions.

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Not entirely. They preserved the fact that the Z-Buster allows X to charge special weapons.  That's technology that Zero doesn't utilize, and although chargeable special weapons are something of a standard in buster upgrades, forgoing it is not unheard of (X5, Falcon Armor).  So the fact that MHX didn't raises an eyebrow.

Outside of mentioning how lame the buster upgrade would be if the only perk for waiting the entire game through to get it was the slow but powerful charge shot... We understand Zero is never shown to actually charge or even use any special weapons with this buster. Perhaps he could have, as special weapon technology has been available to Wily previously already, and thus there is not too much reason to think that Wily couldn't come up with the way to charge them just as Light eventually does. Still, Zero's version is toted as the later-displayed learning system rather than the special weapon system. An improvement on the same concept in a different way. It might only be the joining of X's buster parts with Zero's that makes charging special weapons possible then, and not one of Zero's buster's abilities in itself. That doesn't at all mean that Zero's buster parts were designed to be merged with X's. Only that there is a way they can be combined to enable such a power increase within X. How exactly the buster parts merger went down is something that is never really shown, although it might be comparable to the method of taking special weapons from a defeated enemy. Zero's special weapon so to speak is his buster, and special weapons in X's hands often tend to develop in some unique ways which are different than what the previous owners initially used.

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Which reminds me, Awakened Zero as we see him in X5 is still incomplete.  Can't ignore that, either, although I do wonder if the use of Genmurei isn't supposed to mark the completion of his transformation, as victory is impossible at that point.

Sigma in the Japanese version of X5 reflects that Awakened Zero was indeed complete, in personality anyway.
しんのすがたにもどれたのに...ゼロよ。ごくろうだったよ。
"Even though your true form had returned... Zero. Thank you for all your effort."

It's possible that Zero was able to increase his power during the course of the battle, but the evil persona was in place since the Shuttle Mission failure. Hence "Awakened" Zero, not "Awakening" or "almost Awakened."

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I'll grant that it's possible, but I find it unlikely as it strikes me as entirely too convenient.  Especially X5 which is presenting us a worst-case scenario.  The mere existence of the hunter persona is in itself an oddity, are we to honestly believe Zero is left as a blank slate without the virus?

Not a wholly blank slate. The same intelligence, and with many of the same qualities, but without the strong evil mindset and the knowledge secures him into who he was before. His remaining reason and personality allow him to adapt and recast the "master" and mission roles. He is now loyal to Dr. Cain and the Maverick Hunters, and to what they represent. His given mission he is to follow is now the cause of justice. His desire to destroy is channeled into the more socially positive act of destroying mavericks, to whom his hate is now directed and focused. He handles every mission with cool focus and great physical skill, which he has also retained. Here he is the same man, but less evil, and no memories of who he is and what he was supposed to be. From this starting block he begins upon a much different path than the one previously laid out before him, and thus evolves into the heroic Zero who later stands adverse to his own inner demon, so much so that he becomes his own man in spite of his creator's programming.

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That happens every time, including X4 in which the hunter persona to our knowledge never previously surfaced (albeit we do not know the details of what went on in the repair center, but given Zero sharing the same mysterious design nature as X, I have a hard time accepting that it was anything too radical, such as the "Cain-programmed" speculation of many fans).

Cain did something to repair Zero after the fight, and though it seems clear he doesn't understand Zero's complexity that only makes whatever internal tinkering he may have done all the more likely to have had consequences to add to Zero's change of heart, whether Cain intended to do so or not. But like I said above, I don't believe Cain can wholly take credit for that, and Zero still has many of the same personality qualities, only turned on their ear.

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The X5 scenario doesn't stand out from any other in that fashion.

The X5 Awakened Zero scenario is uniquely important not only because of the circumstances surrounding it, but also because when it is over, he has not forgotten any of it.

Like Zero's X4 ending foreshadowed and Awakened Zero's death demonstrated, Awakening for Zero here is actually a choice. The virus restores Zero's memories and boosts his power, but it can not control him. Zero in X5 chooses to pursue his past despite X's pleas he return. Or in the Awakening case, Zero with knowledge of both sides of himself chooses to indulge his own darkest desires and fulfill that which he was created to do.

With the Colony virus infection his lost memories and damaged program is restored. He is now able to remember who he was before his Hunter life, but he has not forgotten who currently is, and all the experiences he's had since. His initial response to this knowledge and increased power, this awakened urge to fight freely, to fulfill one's destiny set forth by his father's orders, is to indulge himself. He immerses in his role, casting off his former friendships and allegiances and seeks to do that which his real father once again commands of him.

The Rockman Perfect Memories book, page 53 talks about what's going on with Zero and X in X5...
Σウイルスに感染すればするほど、逆に戦闘力を上げていくゼロ......。これは失われたゼロの記憶と関係があることなのか? 封じられた過去がよみがえるとき、エックスはゼロと戦う決意をする。過去に引ずられるゼロを止めるために......。
To what degree Zero is infected with Sigma Virus, conversely his combat power actually increases...... This must have something to do with Zero's lost memories and ties? When this sealed past reemerges, X makes the decision to fight with Zero. In order to stop Zero who is seduced by the past......

Awakened Zero battles X to a standstill, but all the while X doesn't give up in his idea that the real Zero is the heroic persona within, and his heartfelt faith touches Zero and transforms him after their stalemate with the reminder of what is truly important to him. Zero rises and renounces the evil, but he has not forgotten anything he learned form his Awakening. In spite of his understanding of who he is and what he was made to do, Zero decides his friendship is the most important thing that defines him. Even in this worst-case scenario, Zero conquers the immense temptation towards darkness within himself, and proves himself a hero. Not because Wily programmed him with supreme wishy-washy tendency, but because he chooses his own destiny for himself, and that is what he chooses.

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Now, to nip a counter-point in the bud, yes, X talks about sensing evil within Zero, I'm aware of that.  Would X consider apathy to the extent necessary in AZ to be evil?  Probably.  But more likely, I think X is sensing the virus and exercising his pre-conceived notions of it (not at all unreasonable, given what the virus does to anyone who is not X, Zero, or Copy Chip equipped).  He likens it to Sigma, but to an even greater extent than Sigma himself.  If this were connected with personality and not to the virus, it ought to reassure him against Lumine's ramblings in X8.  Such is not the case.  Moreover, X even specifically likens his senses to what Zero taught him of things that cannot be analyzed correctly, that is, the Sigma Virus.

X said in that scenario that there are things which cannot be observed, he did not say specifically Sigma Virus there, although the virus presence cannot be denied. X mentions being able to feel Sigma nearby in the opening stage where you pick Zero as your playable character, without Zero saying anything about sensing the virus as evil. Sensing evil by feel may have been taught by Zero, but it was probably at some time before X5, and X's intro stage then is a reminder of it for the player's benefit. X is capable of sensing quite a few things, actually. Like the freed souls in Xtreme 2's ending, and Zero's presence after survival after the Shuttle Mission is a success... his extra-sensory perception isn't all virus-based. It may also be enhanced from the fact that he has a close bond with Zero, and also in another way a close tie with Sigma, whom he has faced repeatedly in deadly combat.

Of course, as a part of Zero's natural state, virus code in his DNA is certainly present, but in fact has always been present and yet not felt. The problem arising towards the end of X5 is that Zero has succumbed to the vision of evil.  X can also recognize the growing of that evil within Zero as part of the reason they fight even when Zero is not Awakened. X feels that growing doubt and curiosity regarding the dark desires within his friend, and has to try and stop it from blossoming somehow. His best friend's soul is at risk.

Lumine, if what he said were actually true, would make all X fought for pointless. If an entire generation of robots more advanced than X himself, who could see all sides of the issue and weigh it accordingly, truly did not want to coexist with humanity... Then Light's dream is truly dead, for no peace could ever come from forcing all robots against their will to coexist with man. But as X eventually concludes with the help of Zero and Axl, that was not the case. Regardless of if he got an evil feeling from Lumine, the doubt itself is justifiable. But if he did not feel it, it suggests he doesn't have the same kind of empathic connection to Lumine in that moment which he's had with other acquaintences. Lumine could be something of a reploid occlumens, if he can keep Sigma deceived enough to enact his own plot. Or perhaps, New Gens always give off a strange feeling that is hard to identify. Despite being everywhere we go in X8, the Hunters don't seem to have much contact with or understanding of them outside of Axl. Maybe because they're supposed to be trouble free.

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He was already gloating with implications that Zero shares no relation to his "original" self, something which X later rebuts. Weil's mindgames do not allow his dialogue at that point to be taken at face value.

The best mindfucks hold a light of truth to them. From the perspective of being the "true" Zero as villains like Wily, Weil and Sigma see things, Copy Zero is not. He's the embodiment of everything that went wrong with Zero, a cosmic joke, a faker. Inafune concurred, the Copy Zero's mind is different, a derivative as much as the body is.

"Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person.  It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him."

In this context, it certainly sounds like Omega is the Zero Wily created and Weil used. The Copy Zero possesses a different mind from that evil creation, one that has forged its own path. And when considered that the virus is what was intended to be removed from Zero in that X6 sealing, this Zero's good mind being removed, and the evil persona's code remaining with the virus... and subsequently taking over with Weil's guidance... all puzzle pieces align.

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Said story writers explicitly stated that Weil programmed Omega at least in part.  Again, they merely refused to make the statement that he did it without aid from Zero's previous programming.  No matter how concrete you take that it still means Weil had a hand and isn't just appeasing the god of destruction, contrary to what his response indicates.

Ciel manufactured the Live Metals, explicitly she programmed them. But she used the souls of the heroes in doing so. Does Ciel's hand in their creation make them less geniune as the personalities of the heroes?

The subtext and symbolism of Omega, as referred to in the Telos drama track retrospective, is far more powerful if taken literally. Another of Zero's own self by Zero's personal recognition, Omega embodies his nightmare... Not simply the fear of his body being used for evil by some madman, but the literal manifestation of his dark forgotten self, nagging at subconscious, baiting him, tempting him, threatening to ensnare him. The Omega who is X's destiny to fight, the evil destiny set in motion by Wily hundreds of years ago, not simply of body, but the very entity which was set forth against him. Omega who Sigma wished to use, whom Weil did manage to use, who Zero himself quite nearly could have been, if not for a very lucky set of circumstances and a very special friendship. In a timeline where Zero's inner evil seemingly never gets brought to the forefront completely, this battle is the long awaited resolution. X's fated fight, and Zero's reconciliation of his past and who he was made to be with his future and who he wants to be, are all accomplished in the culmination of the Elf Wars, and their defeat of this demon. It's a very alluring prospect, that Inti staff, including Yoshihisa Tsuda who worked on X2 back when the Zero-Wily connection was first formed, seem to be proponents of, and Inafune's comments add weight to it as well. When it comes to this premise, it's a very definite "maybe."



Offline Night

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Reply #186 on: September 28, 2009, 10:41:55 PM
D:

NO ONE GONNA READ ALL THAT!



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #187 on: September 28, 2009, 10:51:10 PM
 :'(



Offline Align

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Reply #188 on: September 29, 2009, 12:08:25 AM
Marsh, you've really gotta start coming here more regularly so you don't have to write everything at once...



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #189 on: September 29, 2009, 12:42:29 AM
You're tellin' me.

Although, this was pretty much a direct reply to only 2 other posts. The wait is more for the research that was involved and my busy schedule. I don't really mind if just the hardcore bother to read my ramblings. I still enjoy doing it.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #190 on: September 29, 2009, 12:51:30 AM
I'm glad somebody does...

Definitely don't have the energy to tackle that monstrocity at the moment.

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Offline Waifu

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Reply #191 on: September 29, 2009, 02:12:43 AM
I tried to read it although it took me awhile but await for what Zan, Oakes and Hypershell come up with.



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Reply #192 on: September 29, 2009, 03:11:28 AM
Okay, here we go.  Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point.  So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me.  We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.

You brought it up, man.
It was a rhetorical question.  My point is there is nothing distinguishable in Omega's character to link him to Awakened Zero more so than to any other villain.  He's just evil and is a Zero body.  In my mind there's more to it than that.

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MHX Zero
An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner.  You could have a field day with quite a few games that way.  Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.

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If Zero is to be obsessed only with proving himself better than X, he is doomed to repeat Forte's fate of sometimes being at odds with his own creator's plans.
If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max.  And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.

Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all.  However, a key difference is that Bass seeks recognition as the world's mightiest robot.  Zero on the other hand tends to be indifferent to the opinions of others.

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Only when we ignore Sigma.
Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him.  I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature.  He strikes me as someone who doesn't know what he's dealing with.  He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much.  Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero.  I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.

There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX.  You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information.  I do not.  That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words.  But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.

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As such the reappearance of it in the Zero series demonstrates a greater understanding of Zero's past and perhaps his body than has been known to anyone outside of Wily and Sigma for the known series beforehand.
That X, and by logical extension Zero, are more fully understood in Zero-series timeframe than before is common knowledge.  The Big Four, Zero's weapon data, the modified Z-Saber, and Zero's copy body all point to that.

And, although perhaps canonically questionable, you could say the same of Command Mission's Absolute Zero.

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The two working together in X5 both fail at returning Zero to his intended self.
I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.  I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright.  To override/push it aside, that's another matter.

Again, our differing views on Wily's 21XX goals heavily influence our views on other aspects of the storyline.  Wily's intent is an aspect of the storyline which is left very open-ended, and at the same time it heavily impacts the rest of the story.  Individual interpretation goes a long way.

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Better ideas might be to spray one's enemy with an evil virus upon defeat.
Given X's high viral immunity, that's hardly a sure thing.

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To actually make a secondary personality that would take over based on damage taken and subsequently be extremely difficult to re-submerge is so counter productive that maybe only someone truly mad would think it's a good idea.
Because Wily is the model of sanity.

There's a lot to take into account, though.  For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).

There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down.  Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat.  If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.

As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier.  Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death.  Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him.  Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.

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It is the exact same can of worms. The important feature is the premise itself, not in how the details play out. That is that Weil used portions of the same personality program for Omega that Wily wrote for Zero.
Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming.  Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals.  That's been my point all along.  Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.

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Omega in no way shames the evil Zero's legacy.
Of course not.  But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense.  The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor.  In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.

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Omega's move that's labeled Messenko isn't much like the one from X5 (though Model OX's is).
As I discussed when you revealed those terms, I believe that to be a typo.  Model OX's moves are clearly derived from Omega's attacks of the opposite names, and Omega's attacks from X5/X6 attacks of again opposite names.  In other words, X-series reversed yeilds Omega, which reversed again yields OX, so that X-series matches to OX.  Basic pattern recognition says that was most likely an error.

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I can't help but smile at Messenko being labeled inferior, though. The normal 9-blast Messenko of X5 would have been much harder to dodge than the CPU Zeros' 8-blast Shin Messenko. Despite its name it really is a nerfed version that allows the player a more sporting chance. Of course Omega's moves are realistically nerfed too, and that doesn't mean that they aren't canonically more powerful than gameplay makes them appear. It is a fuzzy transition from story to gameplay.
True enough, but I'd definitely call Omega's Messenko (Rekkoha by the guide) more nerfed than Shin Messenko.

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Adding "Kai" under normal circumstances would imply that the revision is an improvement upon the former, but this seems to be the opposite if evaluated simply from gameplay. I conjecture that its canonical form lies somewhere less than invincible instant kill move
I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects.  I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.

"Kai" is the arguably weaker form regardless.  The original Genmurei uses two blades in a wider pattern.  Genmurei Kai fires only one blade at a time (albeit he performs the move in a set of three, but then Awakened Zero is not limited in the number of Genmureis he can perform in a set).  Being able to dodge a 2-blade attack is plenty conceivable, you'd need only alter the flight path.

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but was utilized in gameplay to give added challenge by adding a time limit to the battle.
I have to object to that.  It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long.  Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self.  I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.

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The lesson is hardly that evil is stronger than good, or that Awakened Zero is invincible.
X (and Zero as well) continuously grows stronger over time.  Evil CAN be stronger momentarily, as canonically happened with High Max, Great Redips, and who knows how many X1 opponents.  X would rise to the challenge if given due time.  The only way to kill him would be to make a substantial leap and act then swiftly so as to not give him that chance (I never thought of this, but maybe that's why Zero faced X before the transformation was finished, the longer the wait the more of a gamble, as baddies have known since Xtreme2).

High Max WAS invulnerable.  Completely.  There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him.  Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before.  So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time.  But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)?  Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.

Gate's battle armor follows the same principle, being vulnerable only to its own energy.

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Omega, merged with the Dark Elf, would have even more right to be invincible
I am not convinced that the Dark Elf is an adequate substitute for a colony full of Sigma/Zero Virus.  Dark Elf is derived from Mother Elf, a force of good.  Dark Elf has viral origins in that Mother Elf was derived from virus research, however that doesn't necessarily mean that it mimicks Zero's reaction with it (does the Nightmare awaken Zero?).  Mother/Dark Elf can power up any host and Omega is exceedingly powerful in his own right, thus the combination is naturally devastating.  I'm still not convinced that matches Awakened Zero.

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That Omega doesn't use it might be a bit disappointing, but not seeing him using Genmurei or Shingetsurin doesn't necessarily mean he can't use it. Just like CPU Ultimate X in X5 not using Nova Strike or many of his other X4 or even X5 special moves doesn't necessarily mean he can't.
I'd say X has a far wider arsenal (to say nothing of him being a likely less ruthless opponent, as he is not fighting with intent to kill) than the evil Zeros.  By your own admission Omega's arsenal is the widest yet delivered.

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What enters into gameplay is but one aspect of such a character.
True enough.

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Still, if Omega had used it, would that really prove the case he is Zero's evil persona?
I really mentioned that as more of a power comparison than a personna comparison, granted that line is blurred as Awakened Zero's personna is seemingly linked to such unlocked power.

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How honestly can a technique Zero hasn't used before X5 be directly related to his original personality which was programmed before Zero even acquires the weapon which he would use to perform it?
The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless.  I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body.  Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.

End of Part 1.  I'll tackle the rest later if I feel so inclined.

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Offline Zan

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Reply #193 on: September 29, 2009, 03:16:37 AM
You know, when Japanese translations from X5 started appearing in that wall of text. I was hoping you'd provide a translation for the Japanese equivalent of X5's "partner" line. Too bad....



Offline Rodrigo Shin

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Reply #194 on: September 29, 2009, 07:17:53 AM
You know, when Japanese translations from X5 started appearing in that wall of text. I was hoping you'd provide a translation for the Japanese equivalent of X5's "partner" line. Too bad....

1st form

    シグマ
 「…………クククッ

 「…さすが…
  最強のレプリロイド…

 「…よそういじょうに
  くるのがはやかったな…」

 エックス
 「なんのために!
  こんなことをしたんだ!?」

 シグマ
 「…ゼロだ…
  ゼロのめをさますためだ…」

 エックス
 「…なんだと!」

 シグマ
 「あれから、おまえたちを
  いろいろと研究してな…

 「すばらしいじじつが
  わかったのだよ。

 「…どうしてもゼロの
  しんのすがたがみたくてな…

 「ウィルスを地上にばらまき、
  ヤツの体をきよめたのだが…

 「…ウィルスのりょうが
  たりなかった。

 「そこであのオンボロの
  コロニーを…

 「ウィルスコロニーとして
  地上とドッキングさせた。

 「けっかは、しってのとおりだ」

 エックス
 「そんなくだらないことで!

 「地球がほろびるかも
  しれなかったんだぞ!」

 シグマ
 「さいわい、イレギュラー
  ハンターという…

 「ヒマなヤツらがいて、
  地球めつぼうはないと…

 「しかし、そのハンターも
  ほとんどが…

 「イレギュラー化して
  しまったからな…クククッ

 「危なかったな。
  ワーハッハッハッ!」

 エックス
 「…く、くそっ!おまえのせいで
  どれだけのなかまが…

 「…ゆるさない!
  ゆるさないぞっ!シグマ!」

2nd form

 シグマ
 「…………クククッ

 「やはり最強だな、
  エックス…

 「それだけ強いと、
  どうしても、たおしたくなる…

 「ゼロとおまえを戦わせても…

 「ムダだった…

 「さすが最強だ、敵、みかた
  かんけいなしに戦えるしな。」

 エックス
 「…だまれ!どこにいる!?」

 シグマ
 「ここだよ、にげも
  かくれもせん…

 「じつはな、こんかいよき
  パートナーがいてな…

 「いろいろとサポートして
  くれたのだよ。

 「かこに、かぞえきれないほどの
  ロボットをつくったらしく…

 「いまからみせる最強のボディも
  あたえてくれた。

 「おまえがくるのが、はやかった
  ので、みかんせいだがな…

 「まー、これでじゅうぶんだ。

 「たのもしいパートナー、
  いや、どうしだった…

 「だれよりも、おまえに
  たいするいじょうな…

 「しゅうちゃくしん…
  たのもしかったよ…

 「わたしいがいにいたのだよ…

 「おまえをにくむ
  じんぶつが…

 「にくしみをくらうがいい!
  死ね!エックス!」

I'd wager it half the battle. Walls of text? Expect me to read that?


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The reason for retcon is to cancel out contradictions
Quote
a retcon is a last resort to erase a contradiction
Guys, please let me know when did Gwen Stacy getting retroactively impregnated with Goblin Twins solve any contradiction whatsoever and didn't create a whole set of new ones. TTFN

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Whenever it comes to "consensus" and things alike, always remember Tony Bullet-Tooth's sage advice:
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."


Offline Flame

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Reply #195 on: September 29, 2009, 07:24:06 AM
JESUS H. CHRIST, Marshy. O_o

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Waifu

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Reply #196 on: September 29, 2009, 05:12:12 PM
I tried to read it although it took me awhile but await for what Zan, Oakes and Hypershell come up with.

How can I forget Shin?  8D



Offline Keno

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Reply #197 on: September 29, 2009, 08:13:21 PM
This page takes entirely too long to scroll through.



Offline marshmallow man

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Reply #198 on: September 29, 2009, 10:37:14 PM
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Okay, here we go.  Again, I feel this discussion has reached the point of both of us explaining personal opinion until we're bored to death, and I've long since passed that point.  So I'll just chime in at some key lines and leave it at that, this discussion has already gotten unproductive to me.  We both know where the other's opinion lies and re-stating it over and over isn't going to get us anywhere.

Hype, I was hoping you were going to impress me, but I can't even tell from that reply if you even bothered to read my entire post. I've provided references and written out translations to support my points and to refute other ones. I have explored questions you asked and asked more of my own. I've done nothing but restate my opinion? It's all unproductive? If you don't bother reading it, then perhaps it is for you, though others can still read, learn, and draw their own conclusions. Why do you keep coming back if you're so bored with it? I like the topic. I think back and forth is the only way to find flaws with one's reasoning and arrive at a better solution. That's not just me challenging you, it's you challenging me. If you don't care, you don't have to continue with me. But if you do come back, I hope you give it your all instead of prefacing your arguments with excuses of disinterest.

Quote
An entirely separate debate which we argued to a stalemate, however I do not believe one should be trying to logically apply gameplay and cutscene logic in the same manner.  You could have a field day with quite a few games that way.  Thus notions of Zero's gameplay abilities in MHX are irrelevant.

Gameplay can't be taken on its own, but it is impossible to shun entirely, many things are only expressed through it, because we are dealing with a game. I'm getting a big double standard vibe from you here. Awakened Zero's attacks are story related, and Omega Zero's attacks are proof he's weaker, but Zero's abilities in MHX aren't relevant at all? A little hypocritical, isn't it?

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If we're to presume Wily is pursuing world domination during his alliance with Gate, as you have previously argued, then this already happened when Zero fought High Max.  And Wily not only did not care, but was delighted.

I give Isoc fair credit to be excited his masterpiece fought so well despite the setback. But flushing Zero out was part of the game for him all along, and he is (finally) prepared this time against Zero's meddling, so the risk Zero actually poses in that situation is severely minimized. Despite this he won't endanger his joint plan with Gate for his personal goal here, despite the opportunity. And yes, we've talked about it before.

At any rate, I do not imagine Wily would be so giddy when Awakened Zero gets up and defends X after that battle, or when he destroys the colony without Awakening at all. Sigma yuks it up when he loses at times, too, doesn't mean he didn't play for serious (except maybe in X5's intro).

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Bear in mind that Zero is derived in some manner from Bass, I don't think a similarity between them would be odd at all.

I'm bearing in mind that Wily acknowledges Bass' willfulness and disobedience as regretfully annoying and that disloyalty is something that needs to be ensured against.

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Sigma claims that Zero is meant to follow him.  I do not consider him a reliable source as to Zero's true nature.

Is that untrue? Serges and Wily stand by Sigma, and the evilly revived Zero does the same when things go according to their plans.

Quote
He has gotten a peek at it, however, which is more than any non-Wily-linked entity can say for themselves during the X-series, so X8's Complete Guide doesn't really tell us much.  Sigma lusts for power, and sees untapped power within Zero.  I don't see why it has to go any deeper than that.

Sigma has researched Zero himself, Sigma has contact and conspired with Zero's creator, Sigma has Zero's DNA within itself and recognizes that it has changed him... how do these facts not make the connection much deeper than that already?

Quote
There is a bit of a trickle-down effect here from our differing views on Wily's allegiance to the evil big-shots of 21XX.  You believe him to be honestly working towards the goals of Sigma and Gate and as such there is less room for doubt in second-hand information.  I do not.  That heavily impacts the reliability of Sigma's words.  But even if this was not the case it would not be absolute, since there is the eternal question of how much Sigma saw/was told and how much he is assuming.

Skepticism is healthy, but Sigma's words and Wily's intentions need to fit into a bigger picture, and doubting them for the sake of doubting them is only useful if one can draw a conclusion from it that works as a theory to satisfy the plot. Occam's shaving kit, the best theory is the one with the fewest contradictions (preferably none). I base that belief on the supporting foundation that it integrates with. Nothing in the book quote I provided speaks against directly his understanding as being accurate. Wily's actions, not what he might do but what he actually does in X2 and X5 in supporting Sigma do not contradict the notion of helping him, or that Zero is a tool for world domination, nor does his Power Fighters ending. That destroying X is all he should do is not a contradiction but a reinforcement of what Zero's role in world domination was always intended to be, to crush the greatest threat to the plans (currently X), and any other hero who may stand in the way (previously Rock and Bass). If Wily does not wish to rule the world anymore, he still wants Zero to win against X, thus his partnership with Sigma towards that end is genuine. If Wily does want to rule the world, AND if for some reason Wily can't cooperate on this with Sigma (a contradiction to Sigma's assessment of how awesome they work together), Wily may betray him, but only after they have succeeded, which still entails that to succeed to get to that point he is working with Sigma in earnest, even if he has a plan to doublecross. In this event following Sigma statement is still accurate, except that it extends to only so long as Wily is on Sigma's side, and because such a scenario is proof that Wily hasn't given up his ambitions, Sigma's assertion that Zero was intended to be the world destroyer is still true.

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I have a hard time believing that Weil succeeded where Wily failed.

Weil literally became dictator of the world, far more than Wily had yet ever managed while alive or as a robo-ghost.  In some ways, Weil is Wily made dangerously competent. Not literally, but in the role he plays as the mad scientist villain is just way more serious. Some mad scientists try to take over the world and dream of revenge, but Wiel actually gets to do it. He might only rule for the better half of the year, but that's a lot more King of the World time than Wily, Sigma, or Gate ever had. Having a Zero that actually follows his orders is another reflection of that.

Quote
I don't believe that Zero's "justice" self is without relevance to Wily's design, or that Wily honestly attempted to remove it outright.  To override/push it aside, that's another matter.

But, why? What makes you think Wily wanted it that way? How is it that to Wily's benefit? The better half of my last post was to probe just how that makes any sense to say, in particular when it is contradictory to other evidence in the narrative. Don't tell me you believe it, I already know. Justify your belief.

Quote
There's a lot to take into account, though.  For one thing the assumption that Wily hasn't had a change of heart over the course of Zero's development is in and of itself a rather large one, given that Rockman World II already established other possibilities (would go a long way to explaining the interchangeable busters).

Is your method of refuting the ending narrative of Power Fighters and the implication of Perfect Memories is to pretend it doesn't exist, in favor of pretending that the World 2 future is unchangeable despite that we're literally told that time travel can change the future?

Interchangeable busters because they were designed to be buddies raises far more immediate questions than it answers. As in, why Dr. Light holo doesn't know Zero's creator, why he can't build armors for Zero when their designs are clearly interconnected and interchangeable, how did Light and Wily get together on these projects after they were already started, and how did the nature of this suddenly joint project end? History remembers Wily as the villain, the legendary mad scientist, the man whose deplorable antics Dr. Light makes reference to in his warnings, Power Fighters foreshadowed he's not quitting, so on top of the above, how does this explanation satisfy the facts better than the several other more mundane explanations?

Quote
There's also the fact that a virtuous personna can more likely live and battle without being hunted down.  Zero, like X, grows more powerful through combat.  If he spent his entirely life as a destructive force it'd make him a target, possibly hindering his progress depending on how the current-day technology compares to his own performance.


Zero learns through battle, so he should avoid battle? Putting down more enemies means more skills, well, if the robots he's fighting have skills worth learning from. If they're no threat, they're no threat whether they hunt him or not. If they are a threat, Zero is at risk whether he's fighting heroes or villains, and there's no rationale that Zero needs to be heroic to not destroy everything he comes across, only for there to be instructions not to do so if that ever was a worry.

Quote
As for Zero starting out evil, that could be a necessity of him being the initial virus carrier.  Then there's the infamous blue-gem-of-death.  Zero wasn't beaten fair and square in X4, a mysterious W on his head stopped him.  Given that Inafune has stated that the virus ties to Wily's revival, there is a LOT of room for speculation as to what was going on there.

And do you have a theory which ties this together with the discussion, or contradict what I believe, or are you just throwing in with the unknown?

Quote
Either way it is fact that Weil had a hand in Omega's programming.  Without the ability to differentiate what Weil did and did not write, we cannot take traits from one and apply them to the other, rather the two must be judged as individuals.  That's been my point all along.  Statements such as "they're the same character with a different master" are highly speculative, and I personally believe, false.

My point at the start was that they do have similarities, and are suggested as similar in fact by the game creators, and by analyzing Zero and his connections given through the stories and sources, we gain greater insight. This was not even an assertion of fact, mind you, but one of possibility, and probability. There are no facts to prove that Omega cannot share Zero's personality with that programming change, or even further since Awakening is a temptation existing within Zero and a choice to be embraced, that he himself could choose it. So do you believe it because it honestly makes the most sense as deductive reasoning from the story and that Inti doesn't know what they're talking about and Inafune's statement connecting the two was completely misleading... or do you just plain not like it?

Quote
Of course not.  But I find Omega to specialize more in longevity than in offense.  The mass destruction associated with him is generally attributed to Weil's armor.  In one-on-one combat, I don't see Omega (that is, Zero body) as matching AZ.

Like I already said, but failed to quote so I'll do so now, guidebooks suggest Omega Zero is the "strongest" form of the villain, like in the Zero 3 Kanzen Kouryakubon, page 131.
巨大化したオメガを倒したゼロに、最強の敵が迫る!!
Zero's defeated the giant Omega, but the strongest enemy now draws near!!

The armor rocks fighting and mass destruction, and the giant form even better, but for one on one, third form is the God O.D.  Is there any reason besides your take on gameplay to say he can't hold his own with AZ?

Quote
I doubt it canonically renders Zero invulnerable given the lack of visual effects.  I do not doubt that it would canonically annihilate whatever is unfortunate enough to get caught in the attack, again, given that once you see it victory is impossible.

Again, you reach the conclusion because of gameplay, which you've already said is faulty and once already denied its usefulness for comparisons outright. Outside of gameplay, one hit from a beam blade weapon in the right spot is often all a character gets. So one hit kill, 2-dimensional world, no way to win, should be weighed with a grain of canon salt, right?

Quote
I have to object to that.  It is far more of a challenge to intentionally view Genmurei than it is to prevent it, as the time it takes before Zero will use it is ridiculously long.  Genmurei strikes me not as a challenge but as an easter egg, in reference to Sigma's line of Zero "almost" evolving into his true self.  I cannot imagine anyone has ever seen it unless they were intentionally stalling.

I don't disagree that it seems more difficult for me to actually wait the 2-3 minutes without killing him for the attack to arrive, but a time limit gimmick that is literally how it's presented in the X5 Hisshou Kouryakuhou, even if it is probably more generous than skilled players should need to put away such a boss. But given time limits to win against a boss are often well within range to skilled players anyway, unless you're doing an uncharged buster run. One could also look upon it as the programmers giving players who toy with AZ a little punishment for making a mockery of him. Still, I suppose there may also be players out there somewhere who've literally taken the entire time fighting in earnest. Granted, I don't think I've met them yet.

Sigma's funerary line for Zero didn't go the same in the J-version, and was addressed in my reply above (seriously, did you read it?) Awakened Zero wasn't almost his true self, he was is it. Or, so Sigma believes in the Japanese story. I find it funny that you give Sigma so little credit to make reliable statements about Zero's true self, yet you latched onto that one. If you believed that Sigma's understanding of Zero is bogus, why did you trust him there? After shown to be a mistranslation, do you still trust his original judgment on the matter?

Quote
High Max WAS invulnerable.  Completely.  There was absolutely nothing X could do to harm him.  Next bout, X's buster stuns him, a definite leg up from before.  So even in such utter hopelessness X can still prevail in due time.  But if High Max obtained such status (temporarily), then why couldn't Awakened Zero (again, temporarily)?  Especially since High Max is himself a Zero derivative.

I have no problem with temporarily invulnerability for Awakened Zero, even good Zero gets such a boost from the virus in gameplay, and Gate's developed shield system for High Max and eventually is an improved version of what he derived from Zero's DNA, though perhaps none of these are true invincibility, just protection from certain modes of attack. Omega has a move he can't be harmed during too. A lot of bosses do, actually, and even geting hit can invoke temporary invincibility for the player and bosses as well, which somewhat diminishes the impressiveness unless we try to narrow down certain times when its presence is actually relevant.

I was actually contending with the notion that when Zero is truly Awakened, he is suddenly invincible all the time and with an attack that vastly outpowers X and even Omega because of it. After all, he was Awakened already.

Quote
The general superior prowess with the saber as opposed to the buster flies in the face of that regardless.  I believe you mentioned earlier the possible lack of optimization in the X1 body.  Throughout both X6 and Z1 it is made abundantly clear that the Z-Saber is linked to Zero's power.

Zero does pretty well with a lot of weapons, X8 and the Zero series shows he sometimes even apply skills he learns to them in a unique way. Beam swords are the standard of cool, but even the anachronistic Zero plans from Power Fighters don't show him with one. X4's flashback showed us that he's competent with steel poles early on, so lets figure that Zero has basic skills with many weapons, and his learning system can allow him to make an even greater mastery of such weapons, since that follows the progression of how Zero actually utilizes his saber over time.  Zero champions the sword, as does Omega, but neither one is limited to its use nor is powerless without it. Don't confuse favoring a weapon with being the source of one's power.

So, anyway....

Zan's request, props for Rod yet again! Cropped for relevance/laziness...

(final monologue before second round)
Sigma: I'm right here, I won't run or hide... The truth is, lately I've had an excellent partner.... who's provided me support in many ways. In the past, it seems [he's] created countless robots... And [he's] bestowed upon me the strongest body ever seen... You've come a little earlier than expected, so it isn't quite complete... but, it should be enough. [He's] been such a devoted partner, nay, a comrade...  [He] may oppose you more than anything... like an obsession... devoted indeed... So there was someone besides just me... someone who hates you... Get ready to receive our hatred! Die! X!

"He" is in brackets because Sigma doesn't specify the gender of his partner to X, unlike Zero's version which is specifically an old man. Although "comrade" is the million dollar term that was misapplied to X in the official translation, if it were up to me, I would have probably chosen "companion" instead. But then combined with "partner" and "devoted" I'd probably be accused by Rod as being another Boco. In Japan it's okay for male friends to talk this way about each other. Please divert all "Sigma x Wily robo-manlove" comments to a separate thread, this one's long enough as it is.

Edit: Fixed 4 typos.



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #199 on: September 30, 2009, 02:26:17 AM
Hype, I was hoping you were going to impress me, but I can't even tell from that reply if you even bothered to read my entire post.
Lack of time, my fluffy man.  And I meant that in a generalized sense, not as an absolute.  If I saw nothing new whatsoever I wouldn't have started the response that I did.

But frankly, you're testing my endurance.  It's not that I don't see any value to these discussions, I do, it's just that the typing-to-insight ratio has long since been on the decline, and right now it's really getting out of hand.  The fact that the discussion is revived from two months ago doesn't help any.

I would suggest looking me up on AIM if there are aspects of this you want to continue.  Writing half a book before the opposing party gets to comment can be extremely tiresome.

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