Topic: What did Lumine mean?

[Hypershell]

Zero being a carrier was the sole reason Sigma survived for X6, so I must admit that one had me raising an eyebrow.  On the other hand there is an off chance his body saw some modification during the X6 revival.  Hard to say since so much was going on behind-the-scenes in that one.

I'm still inclined to believe the whole "Sigma fighting you with his viral energy" shpiel.  He's no stranger to taking losses against X and Zero, and is largely indifferent to it as can be seen in X2, X4, X6, and X7.  In X8 there was a major shift in his attitude, him having the audacity to refer to X and co. as "powerless".  For somebody who "died" with a laugh for half the series, that's pretty odd.

Recall what we know about the Sigma Virus and its derivatives from X2, X3, X5, and X8.  Ordinarily it requires a vaccine to fight, but when it's power output in the substance world goes high enough, it becomes vulnerable to normal weaponry (as in X2, and also see the Nightmare Virus).  If Sigma focused his power for a hail-Mary, he'd have left the virus vulnerable as a result.  Isolation only further shoots him in the foot, as it leaves no escape.

[Flame]

But in X4 he blew up in space... The only thing I can hypothesize for his X5 revival, is that he was able to send his virus to earth somehow via inal weapon before it fully blew up, Maybe he transmitted it or something? theres a lot of cyberspace connections between something like Final Weapon and Earth. Or, his followers came back for him... I can't. I dont see how he survived. X8 should be no different in that regard. in X4, NONE outside of X/Zero survived Final Weapon... And Somehow, I dont think Sigma would hitch a ride with the likes of them. Though it IS possible that he used the shuttle somehow.

[Zan]

Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?

[Waifu]

Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?

Well, I don't know about everyone else but it seemed that Sigma was truly killed at the time and I couldn't believe that Sigma had another body within the Final Weapon to escape with.

[Flame]

Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?

Because there is very little to support it outside of a speck of Light shooting from Final Weapon to Earth? Which could very well just be for the effect of the character shooting from Final Weapon to Earth. plus, Final Weapon exploded in one big explosion, just as the player escapes. yet the credits show it slowly blowing up.

[Zechs]

Why is it so hard to believe Sigma has a backup body stored in final weapon with a convenient shuttle for the escape?

Not only that, he could have bounced to X/Zero's shuttle for the transport. With his final final form being split into 2 (unlike any other Sigma Final Battle) could have used proxy Sigma's for those 2 forms and escaped in cover... Many possibilities exist to explain Sigma's return to Earth...

[Hypershell]

To say nothing of the fact that a space station/weapon is far more likely to have network communications with the outside world than a stone/spike fortress whose seeming only electronics are the doors.

[CyberXIII]

I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...

Why did he turn all angelic at the end?

[Blackhook]

I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...

Why did he turn all angelic at the end?

That´s what Vilains do

[CyberXIII]

Here's the other question I had.

When Sigma was ranting about how X's justice had gotten him thinking, was he talking about how this whole mess started way back in X1?  I thought that was for this last battle.

[Align]

I was watching the cutscene with Lumine, and something else popped out at me...

Why did he turn all angelic at the end?

TRANSFORMATION TRUMP CARD!
Sigma isn't the only one who can make extra bodies, I guess.

[marshmallow man]

My point is that such links in evil potential do not constitute a concrete link in terms of character relation.  Said potential is of course all that Sigma sees in Zero, as he never lived to see Omega.  Sigma is interested in ushering in a new world, and he sees in Zero a hidden power which he believes can be used to that end.  That does not mean that Zero himself, Awakened or no, is interested in such things.  And never over the course of the X-series did he show such an interest.

There's a certain road in X2 where Zero seems contented to be partnered with Sigma. Zero can act as Sigma's or Weil's tool for destruction and world domination just as he had originally been intended as Wily's. The incredible evil, the abandonment of compassion, the lust for violence, the will to fulfill the mission, these unite Awakened Zero and Omega both. 

I don't consider, "maybe, maybe not" answers to be intended to encourage either view point.  I consider them a general reluctance by any story writer to write themselves into an unnecessary corner.  It preserves flexibility for future projects.

Not that they don't do that to some extent, though once they say they're leaving it up to fan imagination, that seems to be all the more direction we get about it. It's been over a decade and we still have no "Wily is Sagesse" flat confirmation. If Inti can't deny that Omega's program is based around Zero's original personality, then I don't see how we can. There are confirmed plot points, and there are very likely ones that only get hinted at, which can be held until proven true or false.

In a way, the whole "did Sigma rebel of his own will" discussion is the perfect case-in-point.  Some sources left ambiguity, some didn't.  All can fit with X8, but those that left some uncertainty have an easier time doing so.

That some sources were not ambiguous makes clear what was the real intentions of the creative team of the time. It is the responsibility of the writers of later installments to sync their work with the series that came before. I would not fault at all the X4 team in not forseeing that 7 years later and 2 installments after the series was supposed to have ended that the new X writing team  would decide to go back on what had been written (if that is even the case at all).  Prefering more deatil and closure to less, I applaud the "Wily made Zero" approach over "Wily probably made Zero, possibly maybe, it is rumored..."

To further the point we have had lots, and lots of experience with Inticreates' concepts not matching their final results.  A lot of that went down in MMZOCW.  X going villainous, the Three Keys, what the Guardians were doing during Z4.  So even if they did at some point consider a link, it would still say very little as to the finalized events.

Huge difference in discussing things that could be currently and things that were changed before the final cut. Wanting Omega to look like the X series Zero was something mentioned in Telos that didn't make the cut, and they acknowledged it. Omega's quote and personality were discussing things that were already in the game. In places like Shitennou in Z4 and when Ciel made Copy X, they've clearly gone back on what they previously said. But I'm not prepared to make the jump from them having changed a few things (that we only found out when they told us, after all, it did not appear in any games themselves) to the point where nothing Inti says can have any definitive value.

Can that decision be made on the battlefield, though?

If Zero was all that Isoc was truly after, then yes, easily. In fact, the entire scenario already seemed prepared for, and if Isoc had truly no other interest in Gate all along, then prolonging his own wait when he has a golden opportunity to achieve his goal can only be explained as pure foolishness. Since he had time and was prepared enough to bring High Max back safely, then he had time and planning enough to collect Zero instead. He certainly doesn't worry about interference in his retreat in the X vs High Max scenario, and X was not even disabled by such a clever trap, so why should he worry here? It was a choice, and a significant one. All other things had gone as he wanted in that scenario. Zero Nightmare caused Zero to resurface. Zero is weakened from battle with High Max, and Isoc was ready with his Zero-stopping field. All is set for his capture, perfectly, except that that wasn't what Isoc wanted just then. The only reason to take High Max instead so is if he is currently more interested in Gate's plans than in hastening Zero's battle with X.

He could be curious as to what all Gate has accomplished, not only with Zero but also with Sigma, if by chance he is still carrying a grudge.

Good, sounds like we agree then.

Based on preview trailers and Zero's ending, Lumine seemed certain that Sigma wouldn't return, but apparently that part of his speech was lost in translation.

Lumine does not mention anything more about Sigma's death being more final in the Japanese version of X8 than the English. Either case he mentions how the Hunters should be satisfied for defeating him, and talks about Sigma's role in his plan and Sigma's intentions in the past tense, but nothing about his final death beyond those implications. I'm not sure there was ever a Japanese equivalent to the English trailer that teased Sigma not coming back, either. Fans at Japanese message boards I've been to seem to be just as clueless as to why Zero thought what he did in his ending from the context the game provides. One common guess is Lumine sabotaged his revival somehow as part of his plan, particularly when Sigma's remains are crushed, to ensure Sigma was removed from his world. But Sigma having gone all-out and having no energy remaining is another.

I don't understand the "thinness of virus" logic anyway. Every particle of virus contains the entire program, that's the whole point, and if it's capable of replicating when there's a lot of it, why not when there's a little of it?

The "science" of the virus is only somewhat explained. The virus itself does not appear to contain the full Sigma consciousness, rather it contains some form of mind-altering program that Sigma received from Zero's DNA code. Sigma virus can exist without Sigma's consciousness being "alive" and does not appear to contain the full program to revive Sigma, though mixing Sigma's virus and Zero's DNA can be used to recreate the revival program. In X5 Alia asserted that Sigma used so much energy to spread his virus (referring to the Sigma Head from the intro) that he did not have any left to revive himself. She was wrong because he did revive within that game afterwards, likely through some planning ahead. But if the relationship between Sigma and the virus is true, then spreading his virus in such a manner actually weakens Sigma. The virus can replicate itself in a linked network or physical body seemingly without much trouble, but when transmitted such as in X5 over the earth or with energy forms they do not seem capable of replicating themselves without a host and will only survive until its energy has been expended. It costs power to convert virus program to an energy body, and that energy must come from somewhere, whether it's supplied from a super computer like in X2 or from Sigma's own body like in X5. If Sigma expends more energy than he needs to move his consciousness or restore himself in another body, he cannot revive himself. In this case it would seem someone else is required to run his revival program for him, as Gate does in X6. Other than the very end of X5 and potentially X8, Sigma has been very good at making failsafe arrangements.

Because there is very little to support it outside of a speck of Light shooting from Final Weapon to Earth? Which could very well just be for the effect of the character shooting from Final Weapon to Earth. plus, Final Weapon exploded in one big explosion, just as the player escapes. yet the credits show it slowly blowing up.

Final Weapon was exploding in a lot of places before we see the shuttle, then as it escapes we see it outrun an explosion that erupted very close to itself. But whether the whole thing had then exploded at once was not shown, and given the credits, it probably had not. It also appears that the shuttle passed the "stem" of the station during its flight and was heading away from Final Weapon in that direction, while the mysterious light at the end of the credits seems to escape from around the "flower" side instead.

[Hypershell]

There's a certain road in X2 where Zero seems contented to be partnered with Sigma. Zero can act as Sigma's or Weil's tool for destruction and world domination just as he had originally been intended as Wily's. The incredible evil, the abandonment of compassion, the lust for violence, the will to fulfill the mission, these unite Awakened Zero and Omega both.

Sigma, or Serges?  Big difference there, and the lack of dialogue doesn't specify.  It's entirely possible Serges instructed Zero as to his mission before leaving him unattended to battle X.

Besides, being able to bring him to X might have gotten some sway regardless, seeings how X is the "one thing" that Awakened Zero must attend to.  AZ, by his own direct statement, does not care about Mavericks, therefore not about Sigma.  X observes feeling more evil from AZ, despite being incomplete, than he does from Sigma.  Meanwhile, Omega is from Z3's introduction clearly a subordinate and not an equal, and in Z3's ending, he doesn't respond to X's presence.  No way in hell do I buy that as Awakened Zero.  

Not that they don't do that to some extent, though once they say they're leaving it up to fan imagination, that seems to be all the more direction we get about it. It's been over a decade and we still have no "Wily is Sagesse" flat confirmation. If Inti can't deny that Omega's program is based around Zero's original personality, then I don't see how we can. There are confirmed plot points, and there are very likely ones that only get hinted at, which can be held until proven true or false.

See above.  As AZ directly stated, X is his only priority.  That tends to filter down through derivative works, showing in Nightmare Zero going nuts over the blue light and all.

Serges is a bad comparison as there is considerably more evidence in his case, and really that's what this boils down to.  The full and sole connection between Omega and AZ is that they're evil, based on Zero, and Inti was asked about it and didn't comment.  Serges goes far deeper than that.  Comparisons were made in the books without direct interviews.  He is the only Reploid to acknowledge Light.  And X2 itself also establishes Zero's power/speed status as being unknown in the same manner as X himself.  But more than what X2 presents in itself, is the fact that future games build on it.  Every title that establishes how "impossible to analyze" Zero is further cements Serges, who constructed the entire body sans Control Chip, as one hell of an anomaly.  The heavy emphasis on the Z-Saber's connection to him, as established in X6 and Z1, further compounds this.

Compare to Omega.  His programming has never been revisited, even though Omega himself was in ZX.  And the reasoning as to why "the original Zero" would be Weil's slave is something our Zero jumped on immediately.  Weil offers only a very weasel answer.  He's a bloodthirsty god of destruction, and yet, at the beginning of the same game Weil tells him who not to smash.  That's not AZ.

Prefering more deatil and closure to less, I applaud the "Wily made Zero" approach over "Wily probably made Zero, possibly maybe, it is rumored..."

Granted.  But one's creator is an action, an observable historical fact, not to mention the player clearly observes it in Power Fighters.  Motivations behind rebellion and how they do or do not pertain to an outside influence are a far more complex and less tangible matter.  Likewise, so are personality connections with past entities.  And as we discussed in our evil-vs-heartless bits, it's not always an absolute yes-or-no answer either, as there are varying degrees of possible involvement.  Ironing out all the details can constitute a few walls of text by themselves, and they can heavily impact later plot points.

That's the only reason speculation as to an AZ-to-Omega link exists in the first place, they cannot be equal as there is no way AZ would follow Weil.  What denounces it to me further is their differences in opinion of the world, and of X.  Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master.  What's left?

But I'm not prepared to make the jump from them having changed a few things (that we only found out when they told us, after all, it did not appear in any games themselves) to the point where nothing Inti says can have any definitive value.

I didn't say that.  I said that their ambiguity cannot be taken as fact one way or the other.  The Three Keys is not an example to discredit Inticreates, it's an example of how the implications of overly-specific blanket statements can fail to sync with established canon.  Sigma Virus turning Zero good.

If it was a black-or-white question, then sure, one has to wonder why they leave it open.  But character relations are far more complex than that, and the urge to resist writing yourself into a corner is justification enough.  Again, the Sigma discussion is the perfect case-in-point, even if a connection is established the lengths to which it does or does not go can constitute a few walls of text by itself.

There's also the matter of authority, to which we can draw a comparison with Legends.  Inti makes "comfortable" Legends connections without establishing a direct link, this decision being motivated by personal opinion and not by Capcom (MMZOCW, page 170).  To do otherwise would be to touch events that are outside of their domain, a separate series they have no involvement with.  That would have to go through Inafune/Capcom.  Awakened Zero, being X-series material, falls into the same category.

If Zero was all that Isoc was truly after, then yes, easily. In fact, the entire scenario already seemed prepared for, and if Isoc had truly no other interest in Gate all along, then prolonging his own wait when he has a golden opportunity to achieve his goal can only be explained as pure foolishness.

The two "ifs" in that post are quite an assumption, one which I did not make.  I said Zero was Isoc's goal, not Isoc ignores all else, there's a difference.  The actions of Serges in X2 present as virtual fact that Zero had room for improvement, so would Isoc perhaps be open to that?

If Isoc knew beforehand that High Max was no match for Zero, why is he laughing?  Gate's works are Zero-derivatives, and if somebody was F*@#!ing with one's masterpiece to the point of rendering their own creation invulnerable to said masterpiece's biggest rival, then it is utterly naive to assume that doesn't warrant some interest.  But when the original proves it can dismantle such a colossus, well, that's gotta be damn satisfying.

The angle I was coming from is that Isoc does not share Gate's goals.  That in no way means it wouldn't pay for him to keep an eye on what Gate is doing.  Gate has some strong crap in his hands.  Whether they are possible improvements or merely "abominations" of the original, it'd be foolish to leave them ignored.  Sigma, in a way, falls into a similar category with the virus, and at X6's end he still holds as much world-dominating potential, but Isoc, or the voice in Zero's head that sounds identical to him, doesn't mind kicking Sigma's ass.

Lumine does not mention anything more about Sigma's death being more final in the Japanese version of X8 than the English. Either case he mentions how the Hunters should be satisfied for defeating him, and talks about Sigma's role in his plan and Sigma's intentions in the past tense, but nothing about his final death beyond those implications. I'm not sure there was ever a Japanese equivalent to the English trailer that teased Sigma not coming back, either. Fans at Japanese message boards I've been to seem to be just as clueless as to why Zero thought what he did in his ending from the context the game provides. One common guess is Lumine sabotaged his revival somehow as part of his plan, particularly when Sigma's remains are crushed, to ensure Sigma was removed from his world. But Sigma having gone all-out and having no energy remaining is another.

Well, I guess it's nice to know we're not the only ones left in the dark.  And that Zero's dialogue wasn't an add-in.

[marshmallow man]

Sigma, or Serges?  Big difference there, and the lack of dialogue doesn't specify.  It's entirely possible Serges instructed Zero as to his mission before leaving him unattended to battle X.

Sigma called Zero his new partner in X2. If Sagesse left Zero instructions to go along with that, there's probably little difference therein. Sagesse aligned himself with Sigma and died serving their mutual interest.

Besides, being able to bring him to X might have gotten some sway regardless, seeings how X is the "one thing" that Awakened Zero must attend to.  AZ, by his own direct statement, does not care about Mavericks, therefore not about Sigma.  X observes feeling more evil from AZ, despite being incomplete, than he does from Sigma.  Meanwhile, Omega is from Z3's introduction clearly a subordinate and not an equal, and in Z3's ending, he doesn't respond to X's presence.  No way in hell do I buy that as Awakened Zero.

Why does X5 AZ not care about Mavericks? He liked defeating them before, and certainly post awakening enjoys destroying things just as much if not more. But Mavericks and the hunting of them are irrelevant to the current mission he was assigned. Why not trash all the robots on his way to his room? Why not destroy the base guardians? That could be some fun warm up exercise. It would also ensure that X reaches Zero faster. But no-they are not his mission. He'll just wait.

Sigma is another matter. Normally, Zero hates him with a passion. Now Awakened, does he still consider Sigma a Maverick (and does he even care to apply such labels anymore)? Sigma is not directly a part of his mission to battle X, but he is partnered with his master, and encourages Zero to succeed in his mission. Not a hindrance, a benefactor if anything. AZ is fine with floating about in Sigma's shared hideout to wait for X to arrive. AZ drops his animosity towards a former enemy just as easily as he disregards his own former best friend. Willing to kill someone he would previously sacrifice his own life for, simply because Wily ordered him to do so. Zero doesn't tell X he hates him, or rant about how he wants to destroy X to prove his own strength. He simply tells how he's finally found joy in the simplicity of his life's purpose. Fulfilling his mission is all that is required of him, and right now, it's to kill X. AZ contentedly explained his cold motives to X before the battle. X is his true enemy, but it's nothing personal. An order's an order. If Wily changed his mind and ordered something else, would AZ not give up on fighting X as well? X is strong and therefore a fun opponent, so are the Shitennou, but if they aren't part of the mission they're dismissible. The total disregard of his own feelings and compassion is what makes him more evil. It doesn't necessarily make him the boss. AZ is only following orders. Without a Master and an order to follow, he could well be contented to kill everything in his path with reckless abandon, like Zero did when he was found. Of course, he may also find it in his benefit to obtain a new master with sinister ambitions. The structured-ness of being given goals makes life more interesting and possibly rewarding.

Defeating X is the one thing Wily ordered him to do, but is certainly not all he was designed for, or all he is capable of doing. Zero no longer cares about the likes of Mavericks, has realized the inconsequence of the actions his hunter persona has previously taken, and dropped that aspect of himself along with his morality like so much heavy baggage. He comments he is much lighter and happier for it. He is no longer concerned about his former friendships, about right and wrong or fighting evil for justice, he's released from the burden of making those choices and the emotional responsibilities behind them, and can now revel in the purity of destruction and the simplicity of following the mission at hand. All he has to do is follow Wily's order, and have fun. The same applies to Omega under Weil. Omega is Weil's messiah because he's a bloodthirsty god of destruction who follows orders. The only unquestionable difference is whose orders he follows, what master he is fighting for. A soldier like him may be the greatest single tool any one with a dream requiring ruination can have. He was built for it.

See above.  As AZ directly stated, X is his only priority.  That tends to filter down through derivative works, showing in Nightmare Zero going nuts over the blue light and all.

Zero Nightmare goes nuts periodically regardless, but X as "only priority" doesn't stand. His mission was created to create confusion for the reploids to want to investigate, and draw out the real Zero for Isoc at the same time. He alternates between normal and robotic speech, sometimes claiming to be the real Zero, sometimes searching for him. Sometimes he tries to deceive X, other times to outright destroy him, and once claims intent to wipe out all his former Hunter comrades. He is suggested to have inherited part of Zero's memories. His unbalanced behavior suits his role as a phantasmal enigma.

Serges is a bad comparison as there is considerably more evidence in his case, and really that's what this boils down to.  The full and sole connection between Omega and AZ is that they're evil, based on Zero, and Inti was asked about it and didn't comment.

If Inti "didn't comment" we couldn't be discussing it. Inti asked the question, and Inti answered it the way Inti wanted to. They commented on Omega's appearance, his speech, and his creation within the story. Omega personality was programmed by Weil. They go on to deny that it was entirely made by Weil, and hint plainly that the personality program Zero's oh-so-mysterious creator wrote was utilized by Weil. Then we're told to use our heads and put two and two together. As far as "mysterious" answers go, it's a pretty strong suggestion, and all on volunteered information.

And it fits. Reploids as evil, as skilled and as powerful as the original Zero... well, there may not be any. And to have access to that, why shouldn't Weil want to capitalize on it when it so clearly resembles his own goals. Rewriting himself into the master position could be enough, though it may not even be entirely necessary. Weil has something to offer Zero in both power upgrades and in purpose. Zero is a servant of evil, and Weil is an evil guy with pristine ability. Depends on whether original Zero can choose who he follows. That the real Zero (which X4 flashback Zero, X2 Irregular Zero and X5 Awakened Zero are all reflections of if not fully realized versions) is meant to follow him is repeated over and over by Sigma in the X series, and that Wily-like entities join forces with men of evil ambition like Sigma and Gate does little to dispel the insinuation. That Zero has strong applications for assisting in world domination is stated by Wily himself in Power Fighters. That Weil himself was not the one who made original Zero a bloodthirsty god of destruction is supported by Weil himself. All of these provide circumstantial in-game evidence that Omega contains portions of the evil persona already within the original Zero body, in the same way Serges' circumstantial evidences portray him as more than simply an evil super genius who knows his history. Not giving confirmation on these things is a calculated and at times infuriating move that helps them maintain the mystery element that keeps fans interested. As pointed out, it can also help sidestep a lot of backstory when the answers lead to more questions, like explaining how exactly Wily wound up as Serges or met with Sigma, how Zero's evil persona gained influence over the original body, to avoid a lot of direct discussion of the Elf Wars, etc. All things I'd certainly  like to know more about and can speculate on, but don't seem to make much headway on actually getting official information about. Game focus has sadly thus far shifted away. In the meantime, at least we have been given hints.

And the reasoning as to why "the original Zero" would be Weil's slave is something our Zero jumped on immediately.

Having been stricken with long-standing amnesia from his sleep, Zero is not assessing that Wily's programming would never allow Zero to follow Weil. He doesn't consciously remember the Elf Wars, the battle with Omega, and seemingly most of the X series in general. If he did, he would well already know and have an opinion about why Omega follows Weil. All Zero is shown to remember of his own efforts is a few impressions and images, and since awakening has been unsure of who he himself really is. For all he knows, he really is just some fake with some copied moves and copied memories. Of what Zero knows of the legendary Zero, a hero who fought alongside X, who some call a destroyer, he well has reason to question what this original Zero is all about.

He's a bloodthirsty god of destruction, and yet, at the beginning of the same game Weil tells him who not to smash.  That's not AZ.

The Shitennou, being far from conception, were never a target of X5's AZ to begin with. AZ has not been seen to battle  indescriminately when he's on a mission. AZ, with a different mission.

But one's creator is an action, an observable historical fact, not to mention the player clearly observes it in Power Fighters.  Motivations behind rebellion and how they do or do not pertain to an outside influence are a far more complex and less tangible matter.  Likewise, so are personality connections with past entities.  And as we discussed in our evil-vs-heartless bits, it's not always an absolute yes-or-no answer either, as there are varying degrees of possible involvement.

Weil using Original Zero's programming to create Omega's personality is a true or false statement. To what extent and how exactly it was utilized thus is something that would require far more detail. While it may be vague, either he did apply Wily's programming, or he didn't. Inti's hint insinuates he did, by suggestive preclusion of the opposite ("can't say it was all Vile-made" vs "maybe it is all Vile-made, maybe it isn't"). To what degree is arguable. They said to use your imagination, so differing viewpoints are par for the course.

What denounces it to me further is their differences in opinion of the world, and of X.  Take away the focus on X, take away the indifference to Mavericks, and turn his allegiance to a new master.  What's left?

Still his tremendous evil and blood lust, but I don't think that is the extent of it. Obvious from above I'm sure, but at the core of AZ I see his ability to drop all inconsequential matters, even his own heart, and focus on a mission. Whether ordered to destroy X or ordered to destroy a copy of Zero, to attack political enemies be they human or reploid, to capture the Dark Elf through any means or to control all reploids using her, he'd follow with the same devotion and single-minded ferocity and enjoy himself while doing it. The mission may change, but his approach remains the same. Stealing Model Z's quote, I believe that something original Zero and Hunter Zero have in common is their embodiment of the courage to fight for beliefs. Hunter Zero wants to fight for the beliefs of justice and hope shared by his friends, while original Zero is the happy whore of wicked selfish and evil men whom he either does not judge himself or condones for being more fun.

If this post was a drinking game and we did shots every time I wrote "mission" or "order" we'd have a great buzz going by now.

The Three Keys is not an example to discredit Inticreates, it's an example of how the implications of overly-specific blanket statements can fail to sync with established canon.

Which is why that has a disclaimer preceding it. Not everything is Three Keys.

If it was a black-or-white question, then sure, one has to wonder why they leave it open.  But character relations are far more complex than that, and the urge to resist writing yourself into a corner is justification enough.

If you're not intending to write more on a subject, there's not much fear of writing onself into a corner. Even finished works leave mysteries for the observer to muse upon. It prolongs interest in a story to reflect upon the nature of them. The finite nature of storytelling precludes full explanation of all aspects of a story universe anyhow. Particularly via the medium of a game series universe where gameplay factors can differ from story ones. We are given some facts and some hints to make what we will. We accept or disregard them at peril of our own pleasure and understanding.

There's also the matter of authority, to which we can draw a comparison with Legends.  Inti makes "comfortable" Legends connections without establishing a direct link, this decision being motivated by personal opinion and not by Capcom (MMZOCW, page 170).  To do otherwise would be to touch events that are outside of their domain, a separate series they have no involvement with.  That would have to go through Inafune/Capcom.  Awakened Zero, being X-series material, falls into the same category.

If Capcom didn't approve of the Legends-esque elements of ZX, ZX wouldn't have them. If Capcom didn't want the statements in MZOCW or Telos to be known, they wouldn't have been printed with their approval. I'd wait for a Capcom source to refute them before assuming they've overstepped the bounds of the intellectual properties Capcom authorizes them to use and discuss.

If Isoc knew beforehand that High Max was no match for Zero, why is he laughing?  Gate's works are Zero-derivatives, and if somebody was F*@#!ing with one's masterpiece to the point of rendering their own creation invulnerable to said masterpiece's biggest rival, then it is utterly naive to assume that doesn't warrant some interest.  But when the original proves it can dismantle such a colossus, well, that's gotta be damn satisfying.

Isoc behaves and speaks very respectfully of High Max in all that we see, and does not behave as though he views him as an affront. That Zero trumped him despite High Max's modern technological edge certainly made his day, but basically once Zero proved his superiority, that should have settled the question if any. High Max was Gate's crown jewel, but Zero is shown to be better, and High Max a failure. Point proven. But Isoc decides to stand by High Max all the same. Seeking to see High Max harmed doesn't fit well as a motivation to explain the full scope of observable actions. We're shown that Isoc encourages Gate's discoveries and aids him in his research. We never see him act against any of Gate's plans, even when he appears to disagree with Gate's method. We also never see Serges or Wily betray Sigma, when they certainly could have. There is simply not a lot of evidence to say that Wily doesn't support them honestly, except that he's Wily and betrayal is usually his thing in the classic series. Of course, we never saw him interact with a being with equal evil intent to his own in classic.

Sigma, in a way, falls into a similar category with the virus, and at X6's end he still holds as much world-dominating potential, but Isoc, or the voice in Zero's head that sounds identical to him, doesn't mind kicking Sigma's ass.

X6 Sigma has trouble stinging together a coherent sentence. He attacked Gate without whose help he would not be there. He challenges X and Zero, then wants them to get lost when they arrive. He is a far cry from the charismatic Machiavellian schemer with whom Wily was partnered. It isn't safe to be around that thing. Further, there doesn't seem to be much Isoc can do besides whisper mysteriously after he left his body. He's not dealing with an awakened Zero whom he can order around. Perhaps there was not much else could he do besides offer Zero encouragement to live on and continue to triumph.

[Align]

If I may interject, what do the Shitennou have to do with anything?

[marshmallow man]

They're fighting Omega when Zero "meets" him in Z3. He stops fighting them when Weil tells him to. They are DNA related to X. That's about the size of it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and at the end as well, duh. When Omega goes out with a bang, they retroactively went with him.

[Hypershell]

there's probably little difference therein.

I beg to differ.  The matter at hand is how easily AZ would accept new allies/masters, as he must to bear relation to Omega.

"Partner" or "friend" are not the same thing as "underling".  And saying that anyone will cooperate with another if it serves their interest is certainly not saying a lot.

Defeating X is the one thing Wily ordered him to do, but is certainly not all he was designed for

I have to stop you right there, that's speculation.  Our only insight into Zero's development is Power Fighters, which is mere concept at that point.  Wily states that it'll be a long time before he can complete his project, and a lot could have happened during then, Wily has been known to switch sides, and in at least one possible future (Quint's), he does reform.  In X4's flashback, Wily's focus is on his rivalry, not with recognition or conquest.  Any hint at him in the X-series from that point on has followed suit, as nothing definitively points Wily in the direction of world conquest during 21XX.

To assume Wily went to Zero's completion and his (biological, at least) deathbed with no change in life goals brings up some hard questions.  What is the hunter personna even doing in a Reploid designed for world conquest?  Why, whenever Zero fell under the influence of Wily (X2, X5, X6) was it merely subdued and never removed?  Why did the only two people who did attempt to remove it (Gate and Weil) yield inferior results?  Is it really one giant coincidence that X's and Zero's personalities counter-balance as well as they do?  And what of the infamous X1 buster anomaly, which MHX chose to preserve?

The only possible notion of AZ's purpose outside of X AFTER ZERO'S COMPLETION, is at his death in X5, when Zero refers to himself as the one who destroys Reploids (robots).  This is exceedingly vague and could mean any number of things.  It could refer to his considerably different mentality from the X4 flashback, or it could be reference to the fact that any form of Zero is a destroyer, merely changing for what cause.  No matter how you spin it, everything 21XX says about AZ involved destruction, and destruction in and of itself does not indicate conquest.

While it is my belief that Wily's aspirations have changed, that is theory and not fact.  However at the very least Wily is considerably more passive than we knew him to be during the Classic series, and I cannot think of a single action by him in the X-series that was not in some manner related to Zero.  He appears only when Zero needs to be awakened or revived.

Zero Nightmare goes nuts periodically regardless, but X as "only priority" doesn't stand.

No kidding, NZ isn't AZ either.  My point was that it shows a link between the two, despite being separate entities.

If Inti "didn't comment" we couldn't be discussing it. Inti asked the question, and Inti answered it the way Inti wanted to. They commented on Omega's appearance, his speech, and his creation within the story. Omega personality was programmed by Weil. They go on to deny that it was entirely made by Weil, and hint plainly that the personality program Zero's oh-so-mysterious creator wrote was utilized by Weil. Then we're told to use our heads and put two and two together. As far as "mysterious" answers go, it's a pretty strong suggestion, and all on volunteered information.

Okay, Inti's departments asking each other, I apologize.

That being said, there is a difference between denying and merely being unable to offer certainty.  The "implications" one can get clash with their own story if one's imagination goes too far.  Let's review (and thank Zan for being more organized than I am):



Sound crew interview:

Suzuki (Character Designer): Up till now, we've been answering the questions, but now we have one for the sound team. What you tell us about the speech of Omega's third form?

Yamada (Sound Director): It's "Ware wa messhia nari!" ["I am the messiah!"] It certainly sounds like that "I am God" kind of speech, something a terrorist or anarchist or someone like that would say, doesn't it? I think that's the kind of impression we we're trying to give. It's not the speech by itself alone that holds significance, however, if you could express Omega's brutality and ferocity and everything into one line, that's what it would be, right! By the way, what's the creation story behind the personality of Omega form three?

Yabe (Background Designer): Omega form 3's personality program (cyber-elf), was programmed by Vile to be his messiah. Though, as to Omega form 3's...Original Zero's personality being completely Vile-made, I couldn't say that.

Ito (Series Director): I can't deny the possibility that the original personality that "a certain doctor who tried to take over the world innumerable times" created for Zero was remaining in the body, and that side of the personality having won over.

Yabe: I guess we're entrusting everyone to use their imagination (he laughs).



There's less clarity here than you might think when you consider the details of the story.  For one thing "that side of the personality having won over" would indicate Omega predating Copy Zero and the hunter personna having to be salvaged from him.  That would be one HELL of a backstory detail to glaze over.

For another, let's look at the old Three Keys section of MMZOCW, discussing what attracted Weil to Zero in the first place:

"Dr. Weil always had his eyes on Zero's body, which had a natural immunity to the Sigma Virus.  He knew that a Reploid with no risk of going Maverick would make the perfect weapon to bring an end to the war."

Take a moment and think about that.  Weil discovers a hidden personna that's engaged in a few bloodbaths, and he believes this thing has no risk of going Maverick?  He sees no link between it and the Sigma Virus?  Anyone who's played X5 knows better.

And finally, even in the event of an AZ/Omega link, the interview still denies a full AZ carryover.  They state as fact that Weil programmed Omega to be his messiah, merely unwilling to state that he did it without aid from what was already there.  But if Weil programmed Omega to be his messiah, then the reasoning of AZ being the messiah of a new world doesn't hold.  Regardless of what link may exist, Weil's influence cannot be ignored.

There are other ways to spin a relation though, such as perhaps Weil never finding Zero's original code and it "seeping in" to Weil's own programming.  Would seem to be more consistent, at least.  Of course then we're asking how the finalized Omega differs from Weil's expectations, lack of Elf Wars details leaving one to fill in the gaps.  Asking the fans to use their imagination means leaving the details up to individual interpretation.  An AZ-Omega relation in and of itself is not my objection, as Omega is a Zero-derivative in some manner regardless.  My beef is with the notion that the mentality of one applies to the other, that they share the same goals.  That was never stated, and is speculation, one which I find particularly shaky given how different their in-game presentations are.  Your justification for that is AZ's mentality changing missions, but we have never seen that happen.  We do not know his purpose, if any, beyond X.

why shouldn't Weil want to capitalize on it when it so clearly resembles his own goals.

Destroying the world is his goal in MMZ, but the applications of that during Elf Wars a century earlier are unclear.  Weil wanted to stop Mavericks, and took it to the extreme of outright controlling all Reploids.  Vengeance factors in after the point, and it's no small leap that it would lend itself to indiscriminate destruction.  So to what extent?  What changed and what didn't?  Lacking a detailed depiction of Elf Wars (there's as good a reason as any to revisit Omega), we can speculate but cannot be certain.

Having been stricken with long-standing amnesia from his sleep, Zero is not assessing that Wily's programming would never allow Zero to follow Weil.

I was asking that in a storytelling context, not an in-story context.  If Zero wasn't lacking memory he'd already know who/what Omega was, you're stating the obvious.

To what degree is arguable.

Something we both seem to repeat.  Which is why we're here.  This discussion started because of the insinuation that AZ is a new-world messiah as Omega is.  That is not fact.

If you're not intending to write more on a subject, there's not much fear of writing onself into a corner.

Tell that to Inafune post-X5.  Inticreates made Z1 not knowing if there would be a sequel, and they made Z3 intending for that to be the end of the Weil arc.

If Capcom didn't approve of the Legends-esque elements of ZX, ZX wouldn't have them. If Capcom didn't want the statements in MZOCW or Telos to be known, they wouldn't have been printed with their approval. I'd wait for a Capcom source to refute them before assuming they've overstepped the bounds of the intellectual properties Capcom authorizes them to use and discuss.

You're taking my statements to a greater extreme than I intended.  Implications and references are not the same thing as a solid canonical link.  Leaving the question and making the statement are two different things.

Isoc behaves and speaks very respectfully of High Max in all that we see, and does not behave as though he views him as an affront.

If he did otherwise Gate would kick him out.

High Max was Gate's crown jewel

False, Gate is utilizing Zero's DNA for himself.  And Isoc knows Gate's plans go beyond High Max, as Gate already ordered him to continue their experiments despite Isoc's suggestion that he be satisfied with High Max man-handling X and call it a day.

And that, my fluffy man, is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make.  A rushed decision to the level you're suggesting is not intelligence, it's recklessness.  Knowledge is power, abandoning it is foolish.  There's no telling what risk, or even simple annoyances, may result from severing connections with Gate at the drop of a dime.

We never see him act against any of Gate's plans, even when he appears to disagree with Gate's method.

False, he's not sharing all he knows with Gate.  Isoc can disable Zero with a wave of his hand, Gate cannot, and Zero poses a significant threat to Gate.  By not sharing his knowledge, Isoc is obstructing Gate's plans.

We also never see Serges or Wily betray Sigma, when they certainly could have.

Easily questionable, as that little voice in Zero's head tells him to wail on Sigma.  You can present an alternate explanation but that doesn't automatically invalidate the alternative.

Not to mention Wily's plan is the entire reason Sigma was toast in X5 in the first place, as spreading the virus in that manner posed a tremendous risk to him.

And, although speculation, there is potential for foul play in Final Sigma W.  The body is built by Wily, the toughest ever, but left unfinished.  Convenient.

But the fact that Serges, that is to say Wily in X2 timeframe, did not betray Sigma further illustrates my point on Isoc/Gate behavior.  At the moment Zero is revived, there is no further use for Sigma.  Slice him in half?  Wily isn't so aggressive.  And three games later, Sigma proved useful to Wily's agenda once again, despite Sigma not realizing that he's talking to the same person (Sigma describes a recent new partner).  At X2, this could not have been known.  Furthermore, the fact that Wily is withholding information from Sigma, as Isoc did Gate, indicates less than full cooperation.

Of course, we never saw him interact with a being with equal evil intent to his own in classic.

We never saw him act as subordinate, either, which is what Serges and Isoc do.  And Wily isn't anyone I'd trust as an underling.  Only the behind-the-scenes X5 Wily ever approached a fellow evil-doer as an equal.

X6 Sigma has trouble stinging together a coherent sentence. He attacked Gate without whose help he would not be there. He challenges X and Zero, then wants them to get lost when they arrive. He is a far cry from the charismatic Machiavellian schemer with whom Wily was partnered. It isn't safe to be around that thing.

All of that only furthers the point that it would have been reckless of Isoc to abandon Gate, who was working to revive Sigma, without preparation, or at least observing how far things went.  Any great character in a conflict knows to educate themselves about their enemy, or even possible enemy.

[Zan]

Marshmallow, wasn't there some quote that likened Weil's plans for Omega to what Wily originally intended? (World domination.)

[marshmallow man]

Walls of text ahoy.

Which is why we're here.  This discussion started because of the insinuation that AZ is a new-world messiah as Omega is.  That is not fact.

If you take every insinuation as a statement of fact, then original Zero is officially Omega already. I only referenced the canonical possibility of such a matter. "You're taking my statements to a greater extreme than I intended." It's fine, though. I wasn't trying to start an argument with it, but I like arguing about it anyway.

The matter at hand is how easily AZ would accept new allies/masters, as he must to bear relation to Omega.

"Partner" or "friend" are not the same thing as "underling".  And saying that anyone will cooperate with another if it serves their interest is certainly not saying a lot.

Regardless of whether Serges ordered him to align with Sigma or Zero chose to do so of his own will, in that X2 scenario they were partners. It demonstrates loyalty extension or transference is possible for an awakened Zero state.

Partner status doesn't need to invoke equal stake in every aspect, sometimes partners deal in seperate aspects to do with their specialties, and sometimes there are silent partners. What is shared in partnerships vs lackeying is that all partners are bringing something significant to their shared objective. As a partner for Sigma, Zero's important. A useful ally, but valued far more than Sigma has regarded any underling, as the effort taken to bring him about demonstrates. The evil program portions they share may be about the most significant bond Sigma has with another reploid before his children.

I have to stop you right there, that's speculation.  Our only insight into Zero's development is Power Fighters, which is mere concept at that point.  Wily states that it'll be a long time before he can complete his project, and a lot could have happened during then, Wily has been known to switch sides, and in at least one possible future (Quint's), he does reform.  In X4's flashback, Wily's focus is on his rivalry, not with recognition or conquest.  Any hint at him in the X-series from that point on has followed suit, as nothing definitively points Wily in the direction of world conquest during 21XX.

That Wily was developing Zero to help him conquer the world is self-stated fact in Power Fighters. That Wily would abandon this aspect in his original Zero program is the speculation. And unconvincing, since defining the qualities of what makes Zero good for world domination are the same powers he demonstrates that make him good for killing X, would have been good for killing Rock or Forte, and are the same that make Omega a "good" Messiah. Heartlessness, deadly cunning, incredible power, follows orders. A "normal" state that does not behave erratically under Sigma virus influence. The origin of the world's most deadly virus program within his very DNA.

Wily's final order towards for Zero was to destroy X. But that this somehow rendered Zero's original program useless for world domination is not supported in the X series. You previously argued that "The virus, regardless of its effects on Sigma's judgment, was key to his role as leader of the rebellion." Don't agree that he couldn't have done X1 without it if he was evil from the start (not that I think Sigma was that either), but as demonstrated in later installments I do agree over how useful the virus can be. It's certain to see how much Gate was able to do with Zero's DNA towards his own utopia. Likes of he and Sigma did recognize such a useful and dangerous program inside Zero that's perfect for controlling and deceiving en masse. Wily identifying a stronger desire doesn't undo what Zero is capable of by Wily's own hand. It only frees the way for Wily to cooperate with other beings who want to dominate the world without conflict of interest.

Omega is likened to Original Zero's program and character, not actually "Awakened Zero." Technically the code talked about in Power Fighters is the earliest known "original" Original Zero program, and anything later added to be primarily about X could have been patched in later (if programmed in at all). But that the virus code is still inside him, with little reason to doubt its usefulness ever changed, even if Wily did not enact that world domination order himself (though such use was demonstrated every time a would-be Wily interferes with the world directly).

The Zero we see in the X4 cutscene is about as original Zero as we've witnessed actively, but is his behavior indicative of Wily's plan for the original Zero? He appears to attack anyone who approaches, He behaves wildly, energetically brutal, focus-less. Hundred year sleeps tend to cloud one's memories in many cases, has that happened here?

Then Hunter Zero emerges from flashback Zero's damages, behaving very differently. Calm, collected, thoughtful, personality-wise a far cry from his blood lusting former self which he even seems to have forgotten he was, but still technically the same person. Different goals, different outlooks, different behavior, but same actual being, only changed.

Awakened Zero is the Hunter Zero, having regained his past memory and shares traits of both Hunter Zero and the flashback one. Both evil and calm, brutal but focused, intellectual but uncompassionate. Intent upon his mission, but without the random violence and collateral damage. Even so, he is still Hunter Zero, has the experiences of him. After the double KO, they resurface.The Original Zero ideal would probably not have included standing up and protecting X, declaring hatred for Sigma and denouncing his own evil. The X5 Awakened Zero is corrupted by the Hunter Zero experiences inside him. He could be closer to Wily's intended Original Zero than the earlier flashback Zero was, but from another view he is not the Original Zero either, rather a near miss failure.

If Weil or his associates did remove the goodness, the virtuous Hunter Zero elements from the equation, recreating many key elements to the Original Zero program, the personality closeness may in that way be greater than Awakened Zero's. On the other hand, if following Wily or hating and killing X are hardwired portions of the program then that's certainly a notable change. Even so, changing the father role from Wily to Weil and from hating what Wily hates to what Weil does maintains the same equation but with different variables. Zero still appears to follow the will of the father without care or question, focus on what that figure wants with the same heartless obsessive ruthlessness. The similarities of having the same evil heart and methods can well outweigh the difference in goals and mentors. At least it is still closer to one another than the Zero with compassion for the people and ideals that either "father" stands in opposition to, the Zero who questions his own purpose and chooses who and what he believes in.

Inafune gave us last year, "Dr. Wily and Weil are not the same person.  It is ironic though, because Dr. Wily created Zero, and Dr. Weil used Zero, but ultimately it was a copy of Zero's original body with a different mind that defeated him." He likens the Zero Wily created and the Zero which Weil used, in contrast to the heroic copy-bodied Zero, who has a "different mind" despite it being Zero's heroic soul from the X series.  Memories can be forgotten, goals can change, but it doesn't necessarily change what makes up one's personality, or who we are. X4's epilogue described "Two different people. Two different fates." The evil Original Zero and the heroic Hunter Zero are two such differing personalities born from a common thread, and Weil's Zero is thus comparable with the evil persona while Copy Zero linked with the good.

Why, over the events of X2, X5, and X6, was it never removed?

Wily's massive failures. In X2 Serges tried to restore the program with virus, but if that is thwarted he just whips out a copy instead. Neither were successful ventures. X5 involved a similar plan to dissolve Zero's Hunter sympathies away in light of his true self thanks to the concocted Zero virus, and per one scenario it did for a while, but ultimately failed. If Isoc had managed to finish whatever he intended with Zero before X6's events, he wouldn't need to capture him.

Why did the only two people who did attempt to remove it (Gate and Weil) yield inferior results?

X has already fielded the question. A noble hearted Zero is stronger than an evil one because his power is used for the right reasons. Parallel to why Forte can't win in classic. Not a question of technology but of soul. The kind of thing that tends to drive villainous number-crunchers crazy.

Is it really one giant coincidence that X's and Zero's personalities counter-balance as well as they do?

One of the greatest story telling ironies of the franchise.

And what of the infamous X1 buster anomaly, which MHX chose to preserve?

The subject of another tangent, but... any number of things. Maybe Wily stole from Light's designs after learning about X. Maybe they both developed it independently based on the most advanced design discoveries of their time. Maybe the hologram Light modeling the look of X's buster after his friend's to help inspire him in the same way that holding his friend's Z-Saber would do in X5's ending. Since the charged outputs are changed in MHX it puts less emphasis on shared technology than on similar looks. Similarly, maybe its appearance stems from X's own desire to be strong like Zero, Light's enhancements filtered with X's own DNA acting in accordance to his will in a subconscious way. That last one's pretty abstract, the rest are quite plausible.

at his death in X5, when Zero refers to himself as the one who destroys Reploids (robots).

...ロボット破壊プロ...

"...Robot Hakai Pro..." or Robot Destruction Pro(-gram?)

In the context of the scene, Zero the way he was created to be. Oft speculated in Japan to be both the earliest form of virus and the ultimate destroyer DNA together in their natural state. Original Zero.

destruction in and of itself does not indicate conquest.

Conquest is a purpose to which destruction can be put. Conquer Light's legacy or conquer the globe by force, hard to say AZ is willing to do one and not the other when nobody in his short existence asked him to.

He appears only when Zero needs to be awakened or revived.

Hooray for mysterious Wily Deus Ex! But doesn't Zero always "need" to be awakened? Subject of yet another tangent I guess.

There's less clarity here than you might think when you consider the details of the story.  For one thing "that side of the personality having won over" would indicate Omega predating Copy Zero and the hunter personna having to be salvaged from him.  That would be one HELL of a backstory detail to glaze over.

The entire body swapping scenario is mysterious already. If fact that Omega shares program with Original Zero we can narrow down to fewer alternatives. The brain removal and empty body theory would be contradicted, with other potentials given more weight. Working scenarios could include Zero's dark side and light side being seperated by the scientists (either for the purposes of attending Zeros' X6 ending removal request or for experimentation and understanding). Or that Zero's cyber elf data was backed up by the scientists before the evil side won out. Perhaps the scientists needed to see the original program completed in order to help them understand the virus. Or perhaps Weil's intervention in Zero's program for his Omega project is what helped it to win over.

There are other ways to spin a relation though, such as perhaps Weil never finding Zero's original code and it "seeping in" to Weil's own programming.

Not bad. Doesn't quite click with Weil's lines about Original Zero and denying doing anything but bringing out his power, though that could be attributed to mind games. But it also doesn't say much about the Forgotten Lab scientists who studied Zero for 50 years. They compared Zero with Sigma Virus, were able to build the Mother Elf from him, could copy his body and copy or remove (part of?) his mind... For them to have never identified Zero's original code or its role grinds against the nature of what they accomplished there. Area X-2's backgrounds hint at a pretty clear undersanding of Zero's body, who made him, and why. It's simpler that Weil learned about the code, understood the link between it and the virus, and knowingly made use of what was valuable about it when Omega was first created.

Take a moment and think about that.  Weil discovers a hidden personna that's engaged in a few bloodbaths, and he believes this thing has no risk of going Maverick?  He sees no link between it and the Sigma Virus?  Anyone who's played X5 knows better.

I think X5 helps prove the case. It demonstrated that Sigma Virus purifies Zero. It has no adverse effects on him, from an evil ideal standpoint anyway. The virus can not change a purified Zero's mental state from that which is already himself, but it does increase his power. Making oneself into that original Zero's master is to inherit a warrior whose alliegance cannot be changed virally.  Important in a war where the Dark Elf or her copies can potentially steal an army right out from under you in more ways than one. For a warrior to stand up to that he needs to be able to spill some serious blood, but keep to only the blood you want spilled. Awakened Zero seems fully capable of that. If he can narrow his destruction upon X, it could be narrowed to other things.

I was asking that in a storytelling context, not an in-story context.  If Zero wasn't lacking memory he'd already know who/what Omega was, you're stating the obvious.

Making any observation about reasoning behind events in a "storytelling context" is entirely arbitrary, unless you're going by the intentions of the story writers. Said story writers insinuate a link between Omega and Original Zero's programming. In that light Zero's question may not be as important as Weil's response.

Tell that to Inafune post-X5.  Inticreates made Z1 not knowing if there would be a sequel, and they made Z3 intending for that to be the end of the Weil arc.

Plans do change sometimes. Their solutions to such cases generally involves tweaking with retcons. They hardly seem to be covering all their bases just in case, since we perhaps wouldn't have many of the contradictions we do if they always left themselves an out and stuck to occluding all that need not be divulged. When the intents change between games, the story often leaves evidence of it. They don't or more likely simply can't foresee all the issues. Neither can we. Both what is currently confirmed and what is currently suggested can become subject to change in the future, yet living in the now the possibilities and probabilities still relevant to us currently are all we have to work with. We can't be 100% certain about it, that's true. We can say that was certainly the creators' intent at one point. It is what we are led to believe as the most likely unless and until those who wield the creative power decide to contradict it.

Destroying the world is his goal in MMZ, but the applications of that during Elf Wars a century earlier are unclear.

Three Keys says "One of the scientists was Dr. Weil, who believed that the best way to end the fighting was to eliminate all of the humans and Reploids that were, in his eyes, silly enough to fight over matters he found to be trivial - and to then build a utopia for the survivors of the wars on their corpses." Facts tell us that he stole and cursed the Mother Elf to start the Elf Wars. Without contradiction, the only clear motivation given to us in this was his grab for power. His plan for the new world after the Elf Wars' end was to become his ideal world, and Omega insures that resistance from either human or reploid would not be tolerated. Nothing short of world domination in the same way as his predecessors and his successors, to create the perfect world from the blood of one's enemies.

Now Isoc stuff.

A rushed decision to the level you're suggesting is not intelligence, it's recklessness.

He who hesitates is lost. Whatever Isoc planned to do, did not come to fruition because of biding his time, sticking to Gate's plan as it was. Wasting one's opportunities is far more reckless than shying away making any decisive move to obtain one's goal. The line between biding one's time and wasting it. Isoc's failure to focus on Zero rather than High Max left his only known personal goal of acquiring him undone.

Isoc can disable Zero with a wave of his hand, Gate cannot, and Zero poses a significant threat to Gate.  By not sharing his knowledge, Isoc is obstructing Gate's plans.

When Isoc asked Gate to take measures to capture Zero, Gate decided not to do so. Can't fault Isoc for not trying, he only allowing Gate to make his own choice in the matter. Gate seems to prefer using Zero's battle as a test of his work's abilities.

Easily questionable, as that little voice in Zero's head tells him to wail on Sigma.

"??: G... go, Zero! You're the strongest robot! "
That little voice didn't mention Sigma, or wailing on anyone at all.

Not to mention Wily's plan is the entire reason Sigma was toast in X5 in the first place, as spreading the virus in that manner posed a tremendous risk to him.

Sigma had already survived what Alia thought should have been impossible with his energy usage. Sigma going all out with his energy during the final battle could have been the case in the end, with his repeated usage of the virus as a weapon. But the death didn't necessarily have anything to do with their initial plan of spreading the virus to awaken Zero. That hurdle had been jumped.

But the fact that Serges, that is to say Wily in X2 timeframe, did not betray Sigma further illustrates my point on Isoc/Gate behavior.  At the moment Zero is revived, there is no further use for Sigma.

If Serges hadn't seen some value in Sigma, he didn't need to build Sigma a new body at all. As leader of the Counter Hunters, he was acting head of the second wave, and he himself resurrected Zero's body. Simply claiming to pick up in Sigma's name could have been enough to unite the remnants of his forces under himself. He could have spearheaded everything. He had a choice not to help Sigma, or sabotage him in his revival. Serges and Isoc both made choices not to betray their colleagues. I think Wily has reasons that don't just involve wanting to play things from "safe" angles. He seems disinclined to play the card of infiltrating the Hunters and influencing Zero that way, despite the potential there.

And Wily isn't anyone I'd trust as an underling.

But Sigma and Gate seem to, even though they seem to know relatively little about him in most cases. Either Wily is super tricky and dupes evil doers into thinking he's an ally in order to use them in some future way which he himself hasn't figured out yet, or he joins them because he identifies with them and where their goals currently cross paths it is mutually beneficial to work with them. Either scenario, he does what they require of him, and appears quite reluctant to betray his would-be comrades, at the very least until after they actually succeed. Thus he is essentially helpful to them and their aims.

Marshmallow, wasn't there some quote that likened Weil's plans for Omega to what Wily originally intended? (World domination.)

If I've missed something overtly relevant, do correct me. Have I forgotten something obvious this time?

[Zan]

If I've missed something overtly relevant, do correct me. Have I forgotten something obvious this time?

I just recall that before we had the translated MMZOCW, from the Japanese RZOCW, there were statements that likened Weil's ambition for Zero to Wily's own. I've however not heard anything of the sort from the English book. Maybe that was just an interpretation of Three Keys and other quotes?

[Bag of Magic Food]

The origin of the world's most deadly virus program within his very DNA.

why does a robot need dna

[Hypershell]

I'm not enjoying walls of text, so I'll try and be brief, difficult as that may be (EDITS: So much for that).  Also, "who we are" in spite of memories/goals is a philosophical debate, so I'm not touching that.

Regardless of whether Serges ordered him to align with Sigma or Zero chose to do so of his own will, in that X2 scenario they were partners. It demonstrates loyalty extension or transference is possible for an awakened Zero state.

It's self-serving as long as Sigma's going to bring him to X.

We also have to question what state exactly Zero is in, considering how it contrasts to X5, and although I know you'll argue against me on this (we've been over it before), I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX, which leaves X2 as the only aberration.  Zero uses identical moves in X2 whether fighting him or not.

Regardless of X4, it's rather clear that the X2 "awakening" is not the same as the X5 Awakening.  And we could really use more details as to why that is, but as far as I know, there is only speculation.

That Wily was developing Zero to help him conquer the world is self-stated fact in Power Fighters.

I don't deny that.  But Power Fighters is concept, and concept is not programming.  You make the presupposition that it is, and that's the problem that I have with your statement.  Your explanation doesn't address that point.  To establish that world domination goals exist in Zero's programming, a statement must be made at or following his completion.  We have no such statement.  Power Fighters is only to be expected, it's in-character for Wily at that time.  But if he wanted the world, he could have had it, all he had to do was unleash Zero before X was ready.  Why wait?  Why challenge X to open combat when your ultimate weapon being his best friend presents much simpler and more expedient methods?  Why back off when the world is in shambles after X5?  Wily is considerably less aggressive than we have known him to be in Classic-series, and I have a hard time believing that he's working towards the same ends that he was previously.

Omega is likened to Original Zero's program and character, not actually "Awakened Zero." Technically the code talked about in Power Fighters is the earliest known "original" Original Zero program, and anything later added to be primarily about X could have been patched in later

Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask.  If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.

I'm seeing Sigma Virus vocabulary all over again.

The Zero we see in the X4 cutscene is about as original Zero as we've witnessed actively, but is his behavior indicative of Wily's plan for the original Zero? He appears to attack anyone who approaches, He behaves wildly, energetically brutal, focus-less. Hundred year sleeps tend to cloud one's memories in many cases, has that happened here?

We can only speculate, but I tend to lean towards Zero in some manner not being fully optimized, lacking his X2 revisions, and quite possibly lacking Wily's command itself (if such is necessary and not just encouragement/gloating ala X6).  Hell, it could have been intentional for the sake of preparation, since both Zero and X suffer a lack of experience in X1 timeframe.  They're formidable, sure, but a long way from the force that they can become.

After the double KO, they resurface.The Original Zero ideal would probably not have included standing up and protecting X, declaring hatred for Sigma and denouncing his own evil.

That happens every time, including X4 in which the hunter persona to our knowledge never previously surfaced (albeit we do not know the details of what went on in the repair center, but given Zero sharing the same mysterious design nature as X, I have a hard time accepting that it was anything too radical, such as the "Cain-programmed" speculation of many fans).  The X5 scenario doesn't stand out from any other in that fashion.

If Weil or his associates did remove the goodness, the virtuous Hunter Zero elements from the equation, recreating many key elements to the Original Zero program, the personality closeness may in that way be greater than Awakened Zero's.

From a storytelling standpoint I don't buy that as being a viable explanation.  If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans.  Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation, I also find the power scale to favor AZ over Omega.  AZ has the Genmurei, Shin Messenko, Shin Getsurin.  Omega lacks such enhancements, your own attack translations actually confirming his use of the inferior Messenko.  He does, however, posses an extra few centuries of experience, doubtless contributing to his variety (case in point: Rekkoha).

Which reminds me, Awakened Zero as we see him in X5 is still incomplete.  Can't ignore that, either, although I do wonder if the use of Genmurei isn't supposed to mark the completion of his transformation, as victory is impossible at that point.

Wily's massive failures. In X2 Serges tried to restore the program with virus, but if that is thwarted he just whips out a copy instead. Neither were successful ventures. X5 involved a similar plan to dissolve Zero's Hunter sympathies away in light of his true self thanks to the concocted Zero virus, and per one scenario it did for a while, but ultimately failed. If Isoc had managed to finish whatever he intended with Zero before X6's events, he wouldn't need to capture him.

I'll grant that it's possible, but I find it unlikely as it strikes me as entirely too convenient.  Especially X5 which is presenting us a worst-case scenario.  The mere existence of the hunter persona is in itself an oddity, are we to honestly believe Zero is left as a blank slate without the virus?

Part of this ties in with my belief that Wily was not consistently interested in world domination over the course of Zero's construction.  But there is another thing.  Many MegaMan series emphasize the power of the heart, and it's on those grounds which Bass, Zero's predecessor, is most frequently criticized.  Zero's heart may well be necessary as part of his power, Wily finding a way to harness/bend it rather than ignore/overwrite it.  There is also the possibility of a last-ditch effort for survival as well, the idea that Zero turning nice when he's beaten may be intentional to ensure that X never destroys him.

Ultimately the above paragraph is entirely speculation.  But you can see, there are a lot of different ways it can play out.

Also, about X2's copy, Serges knows the control chip is one-of-a-kind.  That was probably a move to appease Sigma more than anything else, I sincerely doubt he honestly expected the copy to stand a chance.

X has already fielded the question. A noble hearted Zero is stronger than an evil one because his power is used for the right reasons. Parallel to why Forte can't win in classic. Not a question of technology but of soul. The kind of thing that tends to drive villainous number-crunchers crazy.

Something we both agree on.  However, as I said above, I consider it probable that Wily caught on to that, which would explain oddities in Zero's personality, both why it emerged in the first place and why it was never eliminated by his creator.  Domination puts Zero on the wrong side of the fence, but a rivalry, as is Wily's self-stated focus in X4, does not lend itself to either good or evil.  And an honorable rivalry can be a great source of power, hence Zero challenging X openly (EXE manga touches on this same concept with Bass Cross MegaMan).  But only to one's self, not to the rest of the world.  The rest of the world has to stay out of the equation, hence AZ's disregard for the Mavericks, for everything, that is not X.  He wishes neither to see it preserved or destroyed, it simply doesn't matter.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Now, to nip a counter-point in the bud, yes, X talks about sensing evil within Zero, I'm aware of that.  Would X consider apathy to the extent necessary in AZ to be evil?  Probably.  But more likely, I think X is sensing the virus and exercising his pre-conceived notions of it (not at all unreasonable, given what the virus does to anyone who is not X, Zero, or Copy Chip equipped).  He likens it to Sigma, but to an even greater extent than Sigma himself.  If this were connected with personality and not to the virus, it ought to reassure him against Lumine's ramblings in X8.  Such is not the case.  Moreover, X even specifically likens his senses to what Zero taught him of things that cannot be analyzed correctly, that is, the Sigma Virus.

So, no path is without resistance.  We simply have a difference of opinion in what constitutes the least resistance.

Since the charged outputs are changed in MHX it puts less emphasis on shared technology than on similar looks.

Not entirely.  They preserved the fact that the Z-Buster allows X to charge special weapons.  That's technology that Zero doesn't utilize, and although chargeable special weapons are something of a standard in buster upgrades, forgoing it is not unheard of (X5, Falcon Armor).  So the fact that MHX didn't raises an eyebrow.

For them to have never identified Zero's original code or its role grinds against the nature of what they accomplished there.

That assumes the good Zero and original code were separated from each other in the first place, which is in and of itself a speculative point.  In the absence of the Sigma Virus and its derivatives, sans Mother Elf who is unable to influence Zero (if anything circumstantial evidence suggests the other way around), that's extremely difficult if not impossible to confirm.

Area X-2's backgrounds hint at a pretty clear undersanding of Zero's body, who made him, and why.

The point at which that data was obtained and the clarity it offers is unknown, not to mention the Omega symbol is featured prominently on those displays.  Although going out on a limb, one could even speculate that the descriptions and information on display may not have even come from within Zero, merely Weil's using his (Zero's) registry number to refer to him.  If Neo Arcadia was sitting on the full knowledge of Zero's true history, I don't think Phantom would be finding any grand revelations in Cyberspace.  He and the rest of the Guardians, especially after Copy X (MK1)'s defeat, should know the full story.

Making any observation about reasoning behind events in a "storytelling context" is entirely arbitrary, unless you're going by the intentions of the story writers. Said story writers insinuate a link between Omega and Original Zero's programming. In that light Zero's question may not be as important as Weil's response.

Of course it's hypothetical, half our posts are.  I simply see that as Zero asking what's likely on the player's mind, and Weil's response conflicts with his own actions from the game's introductions.  He was already gloating with implications that Zero shares no relation to his "original" self, something which X later rebuts.  Weil's mindgames do not allow his dialogue at that point to be taken at face value.

Said story writers explicitly stated that Weil programmed Omega at least in part.  Again, they merely refused to make the statement that he did it without aid from Zero's previous programming.  No matter how concrete you take that it still means Weil had a hand and isn't just appeasing the god of destruction, contrary to what his response indicates.



Most of the Isoc stuff is a difference of opinion in villainous policies, there is little backing to act-versus-think beyond personal opinion at this point.  I will say, however, that there is a difference between hesitation and calculation.

If Serges hadn't seen some value in Sigma, he didn't need to build Sigma a new body at all. As leader of the Counter Hunters, he was acting head of the second wave, and he himself resurrected Zero's body. Simply claiming to pick up in Sigma's name could have been enough to unite the remnants of his forces under himself. He could have spearheaded everything. He had a choice not to help Sigma, or sabotage him in his revival.

You can read that two different ways, though.  As an underling (which is what he is under Gate, don't kid yourself), or a partner, he removes himself from the equation and does not make a lasting stand in any instance.  As leader of the Counter Hunters, him making no move to seize power on his own can be taken to speak against world domination and more towards alterior motives, as we have never known Wily to carry any intention of sharing his throne.  The fact that he plays along with somebody can very reasonably be taken to mean that he DOESN'T want what they want, since when does Wily spread the wealth?

If Wily is interested in the aspirations of the likes of Gate and Sigma, will he not betray them eventually if they are no longer needed?  If so then the fact that we didn't observe such a betrayal in unsuccessful scenarios is moot.  World domination only leaves room for one at the top.  But Gate and Sigma have alterior motives to simply ruling.  Sigma, to exterminate humanity for the future of Reploids.  Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him.  How long do you think Wily would fly with that?

[Zan]

Namely, they get to dodge the question of why there is no observable power difference between good and evil X2 Zeros.  Even if we are to consider that scenario, we have to question what state exactly Zero is in, considering how it contrasts to X5, and although I know you'll argue against me on this (we've been over it before), I still perceive a power difference between the X4 flashback and MHX, which leaves X2 as the only aberration.

No observable power difference? How do we even know how a regular X2 boss Zero would fight? Really any difference you're observing in the X4 flashbacks lies with endurance and melee strength. With him not using his buster in the flashback and him not using melee in X2, you have no comparison between. For all we know X4 flashback Zero and X1 Zero have the exact same buster output. Much like X2 Zero and X2 boss Zero. For all we know X2 boss Zero has improved endurance and melee strength, much like the flashback Zero.

All in all, there is no aberration because there is no comparison to be made.

Yet another loophole to add to the ambiguity of the interview, and one more reason why asking the fans to "use their imaginations" is not a concrete answer as it invokes a wide variety of ends depending on who you ask.  If we're differentiating between Zero's initial concept and Zero's finalized "Awakened" programming, that's opening up a whole new can of worms.

I think it's a largely irrelevant difference; there are always Vile made changes to that "original coding". None of them match Omega perfectly and the remaining differences are explained as Vile's changes to the coding.

If so then Weil outdid Wily's plans.  Besides being improbable for another evil-doer to outperform Wily with his own creation

With Wily having aided both Sigma and Gate in their world domination attempts, what is to say Wily himself did not assist Dr. Vile?

I do believe that MarshmallowMan has a point in that Wily is indeed helping others with World Domination, even if he himself no longer actively tries. Wily does primarily focus on his rivalry as his own personal goal, but there's no rush. By Isoc's words; he can capture him at any time. Wily being Wily, is it so weird that he enjoys people making use of the legacy he left behind as a foundation? Is it so weird that he has a soft spot for people trying exactly what he himself did over and over again? With the entire world being based on Dr. Right's creations, why would Wily not find it an honor for others to view his work as superior, why would he not enjoy others following in  his footsteps?

If there was any hidden world domination agenda behind him helping Gate and Sigma, he would be actively doing the world domination thing any other time. If it was all about recovering Zero, he wouldn't be helping them in the first place. He really seems to be helping the two out of some twisted Wily form of sincerity.

Weil's using his registry number to refer to him.

DR. W LASTNo ZERO
DR. W. NO INFINITY

How does that refer to Dr. Vile at all? His symbol is the V, not the W. Zero is not his "last number". The Vile Numbers postdate Omega by a century.

I don't think Phantom would be finding any grand revelations in Cyberspace.

Neo Arcadia hid Dr. Vile's sin. The history of the Elf Wars was covered up. That is what Phantom learned. The events leading up to Elf Wars are not hidden; Zero's Wily origin is known, the fact that Zero is a copy, is not. Phantom refers to the fact that Zero being a mere copy has no right being called a hero.

Gate, to achieve recognition for his work and vengeance for crimes against him.  How long do you think Wily would fly with that?

Gate's goal is the EXACT same as Dr. Wily's himself. Wily was exiled for the nature of his experiments as people did not recognize his genius compared to Right's. Why would he not fly with his own ambition?

[Align]

why does a robot need dna

It's not the same thing as biological DNA with its chemicals and stuff, it just has a similar function. And can be used as currency, apparently...

[Zan]

It's not the same thing as biological DNA with its chemicals and stuff, it just has a similar function. And can be used as currency, apparently...

DNA programs and DNA Souls are not the same thing. XS is about "DNA Souls". The DNA Soul from XS is a Repliroid's operational DNA program; the soul. One of the many DNA programs inside of a Repliroid.

The "Soul Items" from XS are NOT a currency, it is used as an energy resource for the production of items.

--

Soul Eraser manual
Story
The program of a repliroid suddenly disappears...

As if its soul itself were extracted, 2 times a repliroid has been transformed to immobile scrap iron by way of an unknown cause, a fearful phenomenon which became known as "erasure." [sic. "erase"]

And then finally, the incident occurred. On a repliroid research facility on the South Seas island "Laguzland" ["raguzurando"] , the repliroids' signatures instantly vanished! A mass repliroid erasure!

What has occurred on Laguzland? Orders for the mission are sent out to Iregular Hunters X and Zero!

Soul Item page from the Soul Eraser manual, as told by Iris.
Here I'll introduce the "Soul Item." With these, I can create parts using the energy from the Soul Items. When the parts are created, you can equip them to utilize their effects. Surely this should be most helpful in certain situations. Soul Items are dropped by defeated enemies. Please collect as many of them as you can!

--

Compendium of RockmanX
DNA Program
Program that makes up the characteristics of a repliroid. Zero's Learning ability utilizes this, but Axl's ability to completely copy a repliroid is rare.

Erasure
The phenomenon where a repliroid's operation program disappears all the sudden. An erased repliroid loses all consciousness, reduced to being like so much scrap iron. During the Nightmare Incident, a phenomenon similar erasure happened to Isoc.

DNA Soul
A repliroid's operational [mobilization/movement] DNA program that has been pulled out. It appears that Berkana took the souls from the erased repliroids and inserted them for use in the bodies of Iregulars.