Writer question.

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Offline Romantic Fool

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on: April 11, 2009, 11:08:49 AM
I'm just wondering, since capcom's prominent franchise has so many plotholes and undefined parts in each story, how would it be like if the series had a better writer? I know this is just a "what if" question but still, I just kinda wonder how the series would be like if the storylines, keeping the same general idea mind you, were written by better writers? Kinda like the writing skills shown in "Theresia Dear Emile" by Youhei Sakamoto (even though it was highly descriptive of blood and gore) or stuff from Kinoko Nasu, or Makoto Shinkai.


Yes, this is speculation. If it was inappropriate then go ahead and lock, plox.

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Reply #1 on: April 11, 2009, 11:11:46 AM
Ummmmm....

....it'd be better written then?  I mean, I'm not quite sure what other answer than that you're looking for here.



Offline Bag of Magic Food

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Reply #2 on: April 11, 2009, 11:25:50 AM
Yeah, why don't YOU write a better writing, writeman?



Offline Zan

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Reply #3 on: April 11, 2009, 12:44:55 PM
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Kinoko Nasu

Nasu? You're kidding right? Nasu's style is very very weird and is an acquired taste.

Zero: THIS HAIR! THIS HAIR! THIS HAIR IS AN EYESORE!

Where Nasu shines isn't writing, it's original concepts. And even then, he often reuses concepts. Execution-wise, he goes on long explanation sprees to make you the reader understand. If he doesn't, his concepts remain confusing. If he does it too much, it's even more confusing.

Really, if you let Nasu write a Rockman game, we'd either get X5-Alia syndrome until he feels something is explained, be scratching our heads from lack of info, or get confused by Nasu giving 5 different explanations about the same thing.

Capcom's issue isn't concept or writing. What is limiting them is localization issues, format and the game by game nature of releasing these stories. As a result, not everything can be said in the games themselves, resulting in inaccessible sources. Long term also plans can't be properly established, the focus will change between games and they have to deal with internal consistency between multiple series running simultaneously.

For the rest, the simple matter of trying to understand the plot will eliminate 90% of all the so called plotholes.

Either way, the issue with classic is that all the real information is in books, not in the games. A bi-product of classic times.

X's big issue is being the sequel to the never ending classic series, leaving hanging mysteries about the past. They also have clear issues with the format and game by game focus shifts.

DASH is the first time a long time plan really worked out, and the new format allowed for much more information to be given. When all is said and done, The biggest issue is there being no DASH3.

With ZERO, Inti definitely has issues with game by game releases, but less so than X. There are no real focus shifts and you can see the long term plan, they simply occasionally write themselves into a corner as they haven't full established certain matters at the time of writing, requiring patching up in the aforementioned inaccessible sources. They also have to deal with the sudden resurrection of the X-series. They had to redo their concepts in order to stick with what the X-series is doing. You could basically say their issue is wanting to be plothole free, but being unable to do so until after the fact for all the aforementioned reasons.

ZX throws out all the issues the ZERO-series had except for being the sequel of the sequel of the sequel requiring a certain level of vagueness of the connection between series. But DASH is like that too, deliberately distancing itself. So honestly, ZX's only flaw is like DASH; there is no third game and many mysteries are unanswered.



Offline Ramzal

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Reply #4 on: April 11, 2009, 01:12:21 PM
That's the thing. In a story the player/reader/watcher should NOT have to uber comtemplate what the heck is going on. Capcom's writers are not very good since they constantly do that and give little hints as to what is going on at all times. Which is fine in a story of mystery--if that were the case. But every mystery story gives a "Okay! Here's the answer to the questions you were waiting for!" IN the story. Not in several different sourcebooks or interviews. Take MGS for an example. There were a LOT of unanswered questions. But at the fourth game, they went through the trouble of giving the gamers their answers to ALL the gamers.

Megaman fails in that area, and in such, have bad writers. You can NOT compare it to good writing such as


Books: DIES THE FIRE from S.M Stirling, the Harry Potter series, The Shining, The Raven (Scaring the crap out of you without ANY death at all going on.)

TV: Supernatural, Avatar the last airbender, Fullmetal alchemist, House.

Games: Resident evil series (Um...disregard "Master of Unlocking"), Metal Gear solid series, Final Fantasy IV/VI/IX/X/Crisis Core, Fire emblem--excluding the Shadow Dragon.

Let's face it. MM storylines are NOT well writen.

And the answer to the original question is: It would not be a joke?



Offline Zan

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Reply #5 on: April 11, 2009, 02:07:19 PM
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TV: Fullmetal alchemist.

Full Metal Alchemist is first and foremost a manga, not an anime.

And really, you can not compare any of the aforementioned works of fiction to the Rockman-series. They are all completely different formats. None of the aforementioned are action sidescrollers or have anything comparable to multi-series yearly releases that might end abruptly at any given moment.

Were it not for the abrupt halt of that series, Rockman has proven with DASH that in the right format it can produce a great written story. But I guess you won't be satisfied by that because it didn't address the nearly two dozen games of baggage it left before it.




Offline Klavier Gavin

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Reply #6 on: April 11, 2009, 02:20:24 PM
You damn kids and your storylines. Back in my day, we had limited text and a [parasitic bomb] load of gameplay.


Books: the Harry Potter series

TV: Fullmetal alchemist

lol.



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Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 02:24:25 PM



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #8 on: April 11, 2009, 04:18:25 PM
[...]

Megaman fails in that area, and in such, have bad writers.

Not to sound like Hitomi, but--first of all, Capcom's track record with story isn't very good in the first place, and second, the MM and X series were always more gameplay than story (excluding CM). And like Zan said, sometimes they just can't fit everything in; not to mention, they might not notice a plot hole until after the game's been shipped.

I don't think bad writing is the issue; more like Capcom focuses more on the gameplay than the story.



Offline Gaia

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Reply #9 on: April 11, 2009, 05:03:22 PM
the Harry Potter series.

House.

Final Fantasy IV/VI/IX/X/Crisis Core.

Wut? I thought those were overraited and bad, but think of the Rockman series (main) as a superhero series, like Superman.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Offline VixyNyan

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Reply #10 on: April 11, 2009, 05:22:00 PM
Back in my day, we had limited text and a [parasitic bomb] load of gameplay.

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Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #11 on: April 11, 2009, 06:24:05 PM
like Superman.

Thanx to Geoff Johns, Superman is one of the best written comics out there right now!




Offline Gaia

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Reply #12 on: April 11, 2009, 08:23:01 PM
Thanx to Geoff Johns, Superman is one of the best written comics out there right now!



Well, I need to catch up, but I think DC screwed his heroes (crossover parts) over after WWII. Back then, all he had to do was bash the baddies. Same with Rockman. ;)

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Offline Ramzal

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Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 08:58:21 PM
Zan: First of all. Fullmetal is a show AND a comic. Second, that is a poor excuse for the horrid jobs done in the games story. They are inconsistant at best and a sequel should SHOW relations to the previous story. Legends even fails at this due to it not being outside of the normal timeline. The thread questions the writing. Not weither or not sidescrolling can be a fitting excuse. Bland charcters a go go and plotholes. They are fun games but lets be serious. Megaman gameplots are fan thories.Timelineman



Offline Gaia

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Reply #14 on: April 11, 2009, 09:15:43 PM
Zan: First of all. Fullmetal is a show AND a comic. Second, that is a poor excuse for the horrid jobs done in the games story. They are inconsistant at best and a sequel should SHOW relations to the previous story. Legends even fails at this due to it not being outside of the normal timeline. The thread questions the writing. Not weither or not sidescrolling can be a fitting excuse. Bland charcters a go go and plotholes. They are fun games but lets be serious. Megaman gameplots are fan thories.Timelineman

Proves my point that most Video Games nowadays are like the comics of the past.

Nintendo's Super Mario Bros have no consistant plot like Marvel's Spidey, right? That makes the game and comic more fun to read, no relationship crap and what not.

Capcom's Mega Man like DC's Superman, did start with little to no plot, as so.

So yeah, that does prove a point there, but the nerds kept pestering for a plot. Go play RPGs and read your noveleties now y'all for the plot.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

It got really messy to find my sprite and comic topic, so it's in my sig.


Offline Zan

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Reply #15 on: April 11, 2009, 10:50:14 PM
Ramzal: So, according to your definition of good writing, Rockman can never attain good writing simply because of all the baggage that precedes it. That is ludicrous. You are to take a setting for what it is. Not for what came before or after. References are a plus, but they should never overtake the main story that's being told in the now.

But if you really care about tying several millennia of references into one story. ZX wins by flawless victory. However, it still shouldn't magically solve all plotholes of all that preceded it. As that wouldn't be a story it'd be a collection of facts.

As for DASH, it is allowed to distance itself by intend, it is a new series and not a direct follow up to any that comes before. And still, you'd be wrong about it not referencing the past, the entire setting of DASH requires the endless war that is the X-series, along with many other things.



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Reply #16 on: April 11, 2009, 11:11:27 PM
It would end up focusing more on the plot and being unfun.



Offline Ramzal

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Reply #17 on: April 12, 2009, 01:44:14 AM
Ramzal: So, according to your definition of good writing, Rockman can never attain good writing simply because of all the baggage that precedes it.

I'm glad you see my point. The baggage that precedes it should not be overlooked so you can grin and bare what you have now. A part of a story is a part of a story.

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That is ludicrous. You are to take a setting for what it is. Not for what came before or after. References are a plus, but they should never overtake the main story that's being told in the now.

I beg to differ. Simple because what's before is what builds something to what it is, what comes after is what it ultimately ends to. (Which we know it won't stop past Megaman 50) If anything, the before is the most important part of the now, without a before there is no now. Therefore, your point and claim is invalid on that level. Unless, you're whatever past actions that lead to a story is -never- important and that the past never counts.

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But if you really care about tying several millennia of references into one story. ZX wins by flawless victory.

True enough on the end that it explains Z to ZX era clear enough without much need for a source book. Although, the writing problem in ZX is that characters were not fleshed out enough to make them deep outside of Albert, Ashe and...well. That's about it. Maybe how much Vent matured as well but that could have been explored more.

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However, it still shouldn't magically solve all plotholes of all that preceded it. As that wouldn't be a story it'd be a collection of facts.

I'll have to disagree once more to a point, yet agree at the same time. Future plots can show the after effects of past actions. And past actions can show why the future was the way it was. Here's an example: (A random example I just now thought of.)

The law that robots in the Megaman era could be stretched as far to the X series. It could be used as a reason for many reploids to go maverick against their creators due to their life settings being dictated by how useful of tools they are.

While barebones as it is, it could have been reason for many reploids to go maverick on their own volition outside of "VIRUS! SIGMA! JAZZ HANDS!" Something from the past can be explored to effect the future. There have been parts of actual history where this is done to humans and they've gotten pissed and rebelled. Megaman does not do this and wastes it's own potential to tell a compelling story that connects the dots.

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As for DASH, it is allowed to distance itself by intend, it is a new series and not a direct follow up to any that comes before. And still, you'd be wrong about it not referencing the past, the entire setting of DASH requires the endless war that is the X-series, along with many other things.

Not fully true. Before Inafune said anything, it was thought to be a completely seperate universe, and the world just happened to be sunk underwater. Now that he HAS said something, it more than likely will have to tie in with future series and end up with an entire Noah's ark/ Magento with Thor's hammer thing going on. You wouldn't have been wrong for not considering it a few years back, but now that the creator of the Capcom icon has said something, it's kinda no choice.

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It would end up focusing more on the plot and being unfun.

Why is it that a lot of gamers make this mistake? We -can- have both in games. It is highly possible. In fact, it has already happened but a good deal of gamers are stuck in the generation of Nintendo where there were no words, just pixels ready to die for their dragon masters. Which is fine and all but games can have both, since there aren't only two choices. But it seems that -reading- is a labor to a lot of nerds---something which...puzzles me to no end since the title "nerd" came from people who did just that. Read like no tomorrow and were smart as hell. >_>






Offline Zan

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Reply #18 on: April 12, 2009, 03:26:30 AM
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I beg to differ. Simple because what's before is what builds something to what it is, what comes after is what it ultimately ends to. (Which we know it won't stop past Megaman 50) If anything, the before is the most important part of the now, without a before there is no now. Therefore, your point and claim is invalid on that level. Unless, you're whatever past actions that lead to a story is -never- important and that the past never counts.

The revealed past of a story is information that is necessary. There is no need to recite the entire history of the universe at every step, nor does one need to cover information the reader should already be aware of. Rockman DASH explained it's own past adequately. Going any further than that would be needless sidetracking. It is not the point of DASH to explain that, it's for the preceding series to make that connection.

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True enough on the end that it explains Z to ZX era clear enough without much need for a source book. Although, the writing problem in ZX is that characters were not fleshed out enough to make them deep outside of Albert, Ashe and...well. That's about it. Maybe how much Vent matured as well but that could have been explored more.

Hence, there is no third game and we have no access to Gigamix. Furthermore, aside from the direct ZERO connection, ZX makes immense references to the X7~XCM story in its plotline and has in-universe cameos of the classic series. Finally, ZX moves toward Rockman DASH with every step it takes.

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While barebones as it is, it could have been reason for many reploids to go maverick on their own volition outside of "VIRUS! SIGMA! JAZZ HANDS!" Something from the past can be explored to effect the future. There have been parts of actual history where this is done to humans and they've gotten pissed and rebelled. Megaman does not do this and wastes it's own potential to tell a compelling story that connects the dots.

But that's backwards story telling. X1 was made far too long ago whereas R9 is a recent addition. Adding such a thing at this stage of writing is just not possible without massive retcon.
And even then, they actually are slipping in hints about the classic - X connection all over the place. Surely they're ignoring the truly important matters, but can you blame them for not saying Rock and every other lovable character died?

Furthermore, Capcom simply decided a different approach to the matter. Repliroids and humans do co-exist peacefully early on. Irregulars are treated as faulty, glitches in the electronic brain. Then being irregular is treated like a virus induced illness. After all, the term coined has always been 'irregularity'. It's originally not the point that Repliroids are rebelling of their free will, it's the point that they're considered faulty at first. Only later do we start accepting free will in the matter. And when we look at the big bads, the theme of a war of progress instead of freedom is much more prevalent than a war for freedom.

All in all, where Capcom disagrees with you is concept and approach not in connections. When it comes down to it, the R9 law ties heavily into X, just not in the matter you want it to. It emphasizes humanity's response to the Wily Incidents as we head for that point where the acceptance of robotics in 20XX leads to fear and a sudden stop in progress.

Capcom is willing to give you these connections, but rewriting the past is going too far. MHX and RR might have done so, but they did it with respect to the source, and even then they got crap from people for trying in the first place.

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Not fully true. Before Inafune said anything, it was thought to be a completely seperate universe, and the world just happened to be sunk underwater. Now that he HAS said something, it more than likely will have to tie in with future series and end up with an entire Noah's ark/ Magento with Thor's hammer thing going on. You wouldn't have been wrong for not considering it a few years back, but now that the creator of the Capcom icon has said something, it's kinda no choice.

From the very beginning the story of DASH outright mentioned "irregulars", and was set in the "halcyon days" emphasizing a period of peace and tranquility in comparison to the wars of the past. Combine that with Quantum Refractors and Reavered being nearly the exact same as E-crystals and Mechaniroids. Surely a universe quite similar to the X-series had to have happened in the distant past of Rockman DASH. Then as the series progressed, RockmanX mentioned DASH's Heaven and humanity was said to have become extinct as a consequence of the aforementioned wars of the past. These connections go far beyond "Capcom/Inafune said so."

And now, we've reached a point in time where preceding series are starting to make even more direct references. Ruins, Ruin Hunters. Then we have the heavier points. Project Heaven. Before casting away bodies that feel pain, humanity must discard the heart. Creation of new life. The world must be reset.





Offline Ramzal

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Reply #19 on: April 12, 2009, 04:25:16 AM
The revealed past of a story is information that is necessary. There is no need to recite the entire history of the universe at every step, nor does one need to cover information the reader should already be aware of. Rockman DASH explained it's own past adequately. Going any further than that would be needless sidetracking. It is not the point of DASH to explain that, it's for the preceding series to make that connection. 

Yet the games have barely even done -that-. And even when they do, they say the same thing. ZX: "Ragnorak, Weil, Cyber Elves." Very -rarely- is there anyone talking about any kind of memories they have of the past. And when they do, it's extremely vague. For example, you would think that Prairie would be more descriptive of Zero since she looked up to him so much and held him to a high regard.

That was barely done. No records of anything of what happened to Ciel. Just that she vanished. Nothing about how people took the transaction of power from Neo Arcadia, to the three Wisemen or if there were rebellions against the limitation of Reploids life and humans getting to live longer and stronger. While, no a story does not need to give steps back into everything that happens, it needs to be crystal clear when someone--ANYONE in the story referes to the past instead of vague descriptions of what they beheld.

Why is there not a single character in the ZX series that might have still been behind Weil's ideals without said person trying to blow up the world? Why is it that no one is clear and everyone speaks in vague riddles? Honestly, if all characters do that--and many many of the characters do just this in the Megaman games, they should not talk at all. Due to adding nothing to the subject but more questions than answers.

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Hence, there is no third game and we have no access to Gigamix. Furthermore, aside from the direct ZERO connection,


I can see that.

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ZX makes immense references to the X7~XCM story in its plotline

I am assuming that you are referring to A-trans and the possible relation to copy chips? While I personally do wish that Model A is Axl and that Albert has been using the same technology from copy chips from Lumine's time and warning of what they can't stop, that is all speculation until made clear by games. Pay attention to these words: It is speculation. Not complete and total fact until the game makers have a statement---in story, that says as much.

It is like the "Zero killed Dr. Ligjht and everyone!" thing. It cannot be -proved- false or true until it's stated.

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  and has in-universe cameos of the classic series.

Cameos mean nothing in the face of reference and marketing. Behold! The REAL power of A-tra---I mean, Cameos and my point!

http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=69353554.png

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Finally, ZX moves toward Rockman DASH with every step it takes.

Speculated. No matter how close you may or may not be, it's only true when it's stated. While I'd believe you, there is no -direct- evidence that it true.

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But that's backwards story telling. X1 was made far too long ago whereas R9 is a recent addition. Adding such a thing at this stage of writing is just not possible without massive retcon.

How would that make a retcon? It's reasonable, and would actually add onto the reasons why they'd rebel against humans rather than "viral infection". Another thing of bad writing, for a bunch of robots, with free will and a free way of thinking, they're easily turned into sheep if they are -not- having the slightest thought of "Maybe I DON'T have to listen to this pile of flesh!".

There's a REASON why people are paranoid of robots becoming self-reliant or free of thought. Them turning on humans because they are stronger is one of many.

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And even then, they actually are slipping in hints about the classic - X connection all over the place.

Granted that Dr. Light holograms are around and pictures of Dr. Wily, but that's it. There's nothing about -anything- of what Rock did that helped make the future what it is. There are no historical facts stated in game about Rock---a ten year old looking robot that could take on armies ALONE? Come now.

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Surely they're ignoring the truly important matters, but can you blame them for not saying Rock and every other lovable character died?

What's wrong with that? Everything that's made dies at sometime. It's a fact. Why not do that? Why would they NOT bother to have something in game that shows "Rock was here." "Bass blew this building up." or Protoman T'shirts that have an arrow pointed at the wearer saying "I'm standing with awesomeness."

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Furthermore, Capcom simply decided a different approach to the matter. Repliroids and humans do co-exist peacefully early on.

I find that hard to believe. And a cheap happy go lucky story telling mechanic.

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Irregulars are treated as faulty, glitches in the electronic brain. Then being irregular is treated like a virus induced illness.
The very thought of something -given- free will and branded as such after it decides to become a criminal is pretty silly. If they cannot choose to become criminals or normal citizens, then they don't have free will or a choice in the matter. It's a contradiction.

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And when we look at the big bads, the theme of a war of progress instead of freedom is much more prevalent than a war for freedom.

Which is fine, yet it is not explored far enough to warrent being called "good storytelling." The furthest progress goal we've seen is Sigma testing X's willingness to make decisions in critical times and make sacrifice. And Zero's virus. He literally spent all his men and resources just exploring -two- robots. How is that not a waste?

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When it comes down to it, the R9 law ties heavily into X, just not in the matter you want it to. It emphasizes humanity's response to the Wily Incidents as we head for that point where the acceptance of robotics in 20XX leads to fear and a sudden stop in progress.

Again, is a concept that can be explored to high lengths. How much time would it really take to show a human spit in X's face due to the lost they've suffered due to the robots. Unlinked hatred on the human's side was something that was not explored for a long, long time.

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Capcom is willing to give you these connections, but rewriting the past is going too far. MHX and RR might have done so, but they did it with respect to the source, and even then they got crap from people for trying in the first place.

Not rewriting, making additions without having to take anything out.

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From the very beginning the story of DASH outright mentioned "irregulars", and was set in the "halcyon days" emphasizing a period of peace and tranquility in comparison to the wars of the past. Combine that with Quantum Refractors and Reavered being nearly the exact same as E-crystals and Mechaniroids. Surely a universe quite similar to the X-series had to have happened in the distant past of Rockman DASH. Then as the series progressed, RockmanX mentioned DASH's Heaven and humanity was said to have become extinct as a consequence of the aforementioned wars of the past. These connections go far beyond "Capcom/Inafune said so."

These are nothing more than little tidbits. Not actual stated fact. They are assumptions, guesses of links. If anything, they could just be doing it to do it. You don't know that they are using these things as connections. If they were good writers, there would have been a blantent statement within the last -ten years.-

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And now, we've reached a point in time where preceding series are starting to make even more direct references. Ruins, Ruin Hunters. Then we have the heavier points. Project Heaven. Before casting away bodies that feel pain, humanity must discard the heart. Creation of new life. The world must be reset.

Once again, you are assuming this point C leads to D. While there is a similarity, that could just be coincidence on the stories end. Thomas's and The Master's ideals could be the same but the methods can make all the difference. Much like finding ways of peace. Some prefer to talk, others prefer to send a giant nuclear rocket into your house and home.



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Offline Sky Child

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Reply #20 on: April 12, 2009, 04:28:57 AM
The only thing I've gained from this thread is a suspicion that Ramzal and Zan are the exact same person.



Offline Gaia

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Reply #21 on: April 12, 2009, 04:40:59 AM
The only thing I've gained from this thread is a suspicion that Ramzal and Zan are the exact same person.

And a simple question turned into a heated debate.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline Sakura Leic

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Reply #22 on: April 12, 2009, 04:41:53 AM
Okay I don't think I can make sense of about 80% of this stuff no matter how many times I read it.  Can't we just agree that Capcom doesn't really care about the story line so much and some people are thinking a little too into it?

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Offline Ramzal

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Reply #23 on: April 12, 2009, 04:46:10 AM
I'll fold to Sakura's point. >_>



Offline Romantic Fool

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Reply #24 on: April 12, 2009, 04:54:28 AM
Wow, I really wasn't expecting such a good turn-out. 0.o.

Anyways, in the end, it can be agreed that we can't make any certain connections to the majority of the Rockman series, because we're simply not given any information pertaining to the entire plot/timeline itself.

ITT STOP SPECULATING.

Still, I really did enjoy this. Thank you for the response.

Revolutionary