What does Hideki Kamiya know about Rockman DASH?

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Offline Gaia

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Reply #125 on: September 19, 2010, 10:19:50 PM
Thought that of all people, you'd agree with me on Legends. =P

Well, raging over controls is kinda like raging over the troll chris-chan's sex tape, it doesn't help. It'd just anger more people. @.x

Guess I gotta leave this topic.. real slow, see ya. *backs away slowly*

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #126 on: September 19, 2010, 10:20:25 PM
It's means you are bat crazy for taking it this serious.

The controls for the Legends game worked and it worked fine for those games (sans Lock-On perhaps. Improvements for Lock-On is welcome), and it didn't seem to stop people from enjoying the games either. MML doesn't need its controls "redone" for this generation, in my opinion. As someone said, you don't fix was wasn't broken.

>DASH's Controls
>Not Broken
 8D

PS: Why can't we just include the old controls, but engineer the game to be played with the new controls? Want old controls? Go for it, but you'll die alot. It'll be like obligatory Hard Mode for stubborn people.

PPS: Zero's Sabre better be less broken and more fun this time.



Offline OKeijiDragon

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Reply #127 on: September 19, 2010, 10:31:39 PM
>DASH's Controls
>Not Broken
 8D
I'm talking about Legends 2's controls. It's still not as "broken" as people think it is.

Want old controls? Go for it, but you'll die alot. It'll be like obligatory Hard Mode for stubborn people.
You'll die a lot. I won't.  ;)



Offline Turian

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Reply #128 on: September 19, 2010, 10:34:31 PM
Goddamnit Bat, Goddamnit.  owob



Offline Jericho

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Reply #129 on: September 19, 2010, 10:37:26 PM
Again, it's like saying black and white soundless movies should be made to be played in our HDMI TVs.

...the old controls were made for the old style of the game which was hampered by the technology of the time. A New Legends game, if not retro, would have to adopt a completely different control system.

In other words, the old controls were made because there were no analog sticks at the time, and most of the game took place in repetitive mazes. If there were, and the technology allowed for more variety, the game would have been very different.


...but I'm repeating myself, because honestly, many of the people I'm trying to explain my point here are [tornado fang]ing dumbasses who refuse to play any game with that kind of gameplay to begin with, so end up having NO idea how accurate controls work in the first place. AGAIN, like I said, it would be like when Goldeneye and Perfect Dark put the camera directions in buttons. It was in buttons because there was no second analog. When controllers started having a second analog, THEN we started having proper FPS games in consoles.

But of course, people will continue to not read my comments, and people will continue to say the same thing, that they liked the old controls and that the new game should have the old console, while banging their heads in the desks to make fire and drooling in their food to keep it warm. Thus is the ignorant weeaboo caveman life.

I'm [tornado fang]ing done.

Three things.

1. So Goldeneye & Perfect Dark aren't proper FPS games all of a sudden? I'm mostly basing this on your off hand comment about proper FPS games on consoles. If they weren't proper, then what the hell were they? Put simply, they were incredible given the advance in design and potential for these games to exist on a console, and they were designed for the consoles that they were made for at the time. Technical evolution be damned, without them trying to do something, there wouldn't be console FPS, plain and simple. And hell, if anyone here wants my God's honest advise on playing FPS games, the [tornado fang] are you doing with a dual analog controller? Keyboard and mouse all day, distant runner up Wiimote & Nunchuk. XD

TL:DR version of this is simply this. People need to stop seeing in [tornado fang]ing reverse and realize that things stack up one on top of the other.

2. Everyone in here should know or already knows that with the next installment of the DASH games, there will be change to accommodate for the 10 year progression in input design and technology that we've gone through since DASH2. What I don't seem to understand is why you feel as though the game will be fundamentally broken for using a "step up" evolution from the controls of 2000. Not everything requires a dramatic earth moving shift in order to accommodate everyone. May I direct your attention for a bit to the 3D Zelda series that still uses a similar control and input method as it did in 1998 and still manages to be accessible, interesting, and show change all at the same time?

TL;DR version - Most people here aren't saying they would hate change, they are saying that the game should be fun in the same way that the first two entries were. Stop. Drawing. Conclusions.

3. Confession time - We've been on pretty good terms honestly, especially since there's never been a person on RPM like you to give an interesting 100% "on the other side of things" opinion about a lot of things game wise, HOWEVER... That will all change and very rapidly if I have to come in guns ablaze and defend the "poor Neanderthal, 'drools on their own [parasitic bomb]' weeaboo" members one more time. How come I can direct a reply at anyone without coming to such an abrasive conclusion and you can't seem to based on your response above? Lighten up, it's the net after all. :P

TL:DR version - Say that again, SAY THAT AGAIN, I dare you...




Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #130 on: September 19, 2010, 10:43:01 PM
PPS: Zero's Sabre better be less broken and more fun this time.

The only way they could make the Blade Arm more fun would be to let us use it in the air.  Come to think of it, that'd probably just make it more broken, though.  :P

But of course, people will continue to not read my comments, and people will continue to say the same thing, that they liked the old controls and that the new game should have the old console, while banging their heads in the desks to make fire and drooling in their food to keep it warm. Thus is the ignorant weeaboo caveman life.

For me, it's just a matter of preference.  I understand where you're coming from, but the MML2 controls worked perfectly for me.  Lock-on may have had a few bugs, but TBPH you didn't need it as often as you think you did. 

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Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #131 on: September 19, 2010, 10:44:02 PM
Legends 2's controls are awesome on a PC using WASD+Mouse, but Joystick instead of WASD is an improvement and, depending on your skill with aiming a real weapon, a Wii Remote might let you control alot more naturally than a mouse.

Besides the obvious flaw of only having one rotatinal axis on the WM+, it would be fun to unlock the Z-Sabre and play Legends 3 with "1:1" controls. The obvious question is, how will Zero look in Dash Style? Or, by 3, would the Dash Style have changed?



Offline Fxeni

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Reply #132 on: September 19, 2010, 10:45:06 PM
2. Everyone in here should know or already knows that with the next installment of the DASH games, there will be change to accommodate for the 10 year progression in input design and technology that we've gone through since DASH2. What I don't seem to understand is why you feel as though the game will be fundamentally broken for using a "step up" evolution from the controls of 2000. Not everything requires a dramatic earth moving shift in order to accommodate everyone. May I direct your attention for a bit to the 3D Zelda series that still uses a similar control and input method as it did in 1998 and still manages to be accessible, interesting, and show change all at the same time?
This is exactly what Capcom (the company in question here) did with RE, hence why I brought it up before. Batsy took it as if I mean DASH could have the same controls as RE, but that's not what I meant. I mean the controls in Re4&5 are evolved from the earlier games. I'm just saying it's quite possible Capcom may stick with the same base structure and move on from there. I wouldn't put it past them to do so.



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #133 on: September 19, 2010, 10:47:33 PM
Besides the obvious flaw of only having one rotatinal axis on the WM+, it would be fun to unlock the Z-Sabre and play Legends 3 with "1:1" controls. The obvious question is, how will Zero look in Dash Style? Or, by 3, would the Dash Style have changed?

Is it wrong if I say that I don't want to see Zero in the Legends series?  The (sometimes subtle) cameos are pretty much all that's necessary in the series, this isn't Battle Network, after all (remembers Network Transmission).

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Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #134 on: September 19, 2010, 10:47:56 PM
Is it wrong if I say that I don't want to see Zero in the Legends series?  The (sometimes subtle) cameos are pretty much all that's necessary in the series, this isn't Battle Network, after all (remembers Network Transmission).


Keyboard and mouse all day, distant runner up Wiimote & Nunchuk. XD

Nunchuck & Mouse all the way.



Offline Turian

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Reply #135 on: September 19, 2010, 10:49:55 PM
Aren't Lost Planet and Dead Rising basically the evolution of the legends controls anyways? The engine was made by the same people with Legends in mind, right?



Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #136 on: September 19, 2010, 10:53:25 PM
Aren't Lost Planet and Dead Rising basically the evolution of the legends controls anyways? The engine was made by the same people with Legends in mind, right?

I have a feeling, what was meant by that was that they had a game "like Legends" in mind. That is to say, they wanted to make an engine for a third person game that happened to have shooting, but the exploration element mandated a camera and controls for jumping. Legends fits that bill very well and was a thing people knew. To say that they actually had an actual Legends game in mind is optimistic.


PS: DASH 3, Zero needs to have an unlockable camera.



Offline Jericho

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Reply #137 on: September 19, 2010, 10:54:15 PM
Aren't Lost Planet and Dead Rising basically the evolution of the legends controls anyways? The engine was made by the same people with Legends in mind, right?

That's another thing, if there are clearly examples from Capcom themselves for how a possible Legends/DASH3 would play, why all the frustration over how it should play? That seems kinda silly. XD



Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #138 on: September 19, 2010, 10:59:16 PM
Maybe the reality of it being a Legends tile demands that the controls must suit it specifically, and a generic TPS game, while great in its own merit, is not the same as Legends.



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Reply #139 on: September 19, 2010, 11:01:07 PM
Oh Jer, I wuv you.

Give me a big hug you ol' lug.

Also, what? This discussion is still going on? It better have ended after Jeri's show stopper.



Offline Acid

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Reply #140 on: September 19, 2010, 11:03:26 PM
Oh Jer, I wuv you.

Give me a big hug you ol' lug.

Also, what? This discussion is still going on? It better have ended after Jeri's show stopper.

You know it will go on unless this thread is locked.



Offline Bueno Excelente

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Reply #141 on: September 19, 2010, 11:07:08 PM
Three things.

1. So Goldeneye & Perfect Dark aren't proper FPS games all of a sudden? I'm mostly basing this on your off hand comment about proper FPS games on consoles. If they weren't proper, then what the hell were they? Put simply, they were incredible given the advance in design and potential for these games to exist on a console, and they were designed for the consoles that they were made for at the time. Technical evolution be damned, without them trying to do something, there wouldn't be console FPS, plain and simple. And hell, if anyone here wants my God's honest advise on playing FPS games, the [tornado fang] are you doing with a dual analog controller? Keyboard and mouse all day, distant runner up Wiimote & Nunchuk. XD

TL:DR version of this is simply this. People need to stop seeing in [tornado fang]ing reverse and realize that things stack up one on top of the other.

2. Everyone in here should know or already knows that with the next installment of the DASH games, there will be change to accommodate for the 10 year progression in input design and technology that we've gone through since DASH2. What I don't seem to understand is why you feel as though the game will be fundamentally broken for using a "step up" evolution from the controls of 2000. Not everything requires a dramatic earth moving shift in order to accommodate everyone. May I direct your attention for a bit to the 3D Zelda series that still uses a similar control and input method as it did in 1998 and still manages to be accessible, interesting, and show change all at the same time?

TL;DR version - Most people here aren't saying they would hate change, they are saying that the game should be fun in the same way that the first two entries were. Stop. Drawing. Conclusions.

3. Confession time - We've been on pretty good terms honestly, especially since there's never been a person on RPM like you to give an interesting 100% "on the other side of things" opinion about a lot of things game wise, HOWEVER... That will all change and very rapidly if I have to come in guns ablaze and defend the "poor Neanderthal, 'drools on their own [parasitic bomb]' weeaboo" members one more time. How come I can direct a reply at anyone without coming to such an abrasive conclusion and you can't seem to based on your response above? Lighten up, it's the net after all. :P

TL:DR version - Say that again, SAY THAT AGAIN, I dare you...


Let's see... I'll try not to repeat myself here, because I'm getting tired of this.

1- They're really good games, they were awesome for the time, and they still manage to be pretty good today. But their controls are atrocious for today's standards, and there is NO FPS nowadays that offers button camera controls as an alternative to analog controls, no matter what the game is. Analog controls are STILL the best console-wise, because as good as the Wiimote is at aiming, it's awful at turning and overall camera control, making the FPS games that use it much more sluggish. MY trouble is with people saying that the current games should have the old controls. Which doesn't make any [tornado fang]ing sense, just as putting Killzone 2 with button camera controls wouldn't. Yes, keyboard+mouse still reigns, but it's hard to pull off in a non-PC environment. Analogs bring the experience as close as it can be.

2- The only step-up evolution there would be is this. The fact that both sticks would be used for movement and turning/camera control. But I also think the game would change too, because back then, it was limited by the technology of the time, and it came out a bunch of repetitive mazes with samey textures. A new game would be FAR different from that. It would provide more obstacles, less straight pathways to follow, and of course, the controls would have to allow the kind of movement through those sections. Yes, the controls would be QUITE evolved, the kind that would pretty much change most stuff from the old games. So my point stands.

3- My insult was directed at people who didn't read what I read in the first place and made me repeat myself constantly, making the same points that had already been made.



Offline The Great Gonzo

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Reply #142 on: September 19, 2010, 11:11:30 PM
Quote
3- My insult was directed at people who didn't read what I read in the first place and made me repeat myself constantly, making the same points that had already been made.

I thought it was more like, "dismissing everyone's counter-points".

Jerricho's not gonna be happy.



Offline AquaTeamV3

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Reply #143 on: September 19, 2010, 11:25:15 PM
Can't we just agree to disagree?  -AC

I'm just confused as to why to you keep comparing Legends to first-person-shooters; they're two completely different things.  I understand that the controls will be upgraded to compensate for gameplay additions and the like, but a complete overhaul's kinda overkill, especially given Turian's point about Dead Rising and Lost Planet.

That said, I hope you know that there aren't any hard feelings on this side or anything.  I respect your opinion as much as anyone else's, but it wouldn't hurt to calm down a bit.  :D

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #144 on: September 19, 2010, 11:25:34 PM
Let's see... I'll try not to repeat myself here, because I'm getting tired of this.

1- They're really good games, they were awesome for the time, and they still manage to be pretty good today. But their controls are atrocious for today's standards, and there is NO FPS nowadays that offers button camera controls as an alternative to analog controls, no matter what the game is. Analog controls are STILL the best console-wise, because as good as the Wiimote is at aiming, it's awful at turning and overall camera control, making the FPS games that use it much more sluggish. MY trouble is with people saying that the current games should have the old controls. Which doesn't make any [tornado fang]ing sense, just as putting Killzone 2 with button camera controls wouldn't. Yes, keyboard+mouse still reigns, but it's hard to pull off in a non-PC environment. Analogs bring the experience as close as it can be.

2- The only step-up evolution there would be is this. The fact that both sticks would be used for movement and turning/camera control. But I also think the game would change too, because back then, it was limited by the technology of the time, and it came out a bunch of repetitive mazes with samey textures. A new game would be FAR different from that. It would provide more obstacles, less straight pathways to follow, and of course, the controls would have to allow the kind of movement through those sections. Yes, the controls would be QUITE evolved, the kind that would pretty much change most stuff from the old games. So my point stands.

3- My insult was directed at people who didn't read what I read in the first place and made me repeat myself constantly, making the same points that had already been made.

1. I understand that and already addressed it with my thoughts above. Again, don't look at what you have now and think backwards with GoldenEye & Perfect Dark. Also, (as much as lately I hate championing Nintendo things because it paints me as a fanboy when I just like leveling the playing field info wise) Wiimote & Nunchuk actually is insanely accurate once you incorporate M+ into the mix, or have a good bounding box / sensitivity algorithm going. The problem is that not many folks try different things with the IR pointer, but that's a holdover from not making many games on Wii (and thus not playing with its potential) period... 8D

EDIT: [parasitic bomb], I actually forgot the biggest part of my response in regards to keeping the legacy without changing the direction with the controls. Again, see the Zelda comparison, but for the sake of this post, look at #2.

2. Maybe I should have left my initial response unedited. Originally where I put input design, I had simply typed design. Since the discussion was about the controls, I went back and added/changed that. Yes, the game's design and what kind of things you could find yourself doing in a current gen DASH will all get bigger, better, and perhaps more bad ass, but my point on making a design that offer the kind of fun the DASH series originally got popular for still stands.

3. No excuses there, sorry. Don't insult people and they'll be more willing to actually take what you say and give it a thought. On top of that, insulting them because they don't "get it" is rude.

Meanwhile, show's over, pool's closed, etc. DASH3 is coming and that's all I really needed to know.
Not like I didn't before though...