Sonic Classic Collection

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Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #100 on: December 07, 2009, 07:43:16 AM
Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.

Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics

Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.

I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.

Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.

Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.

Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.



Offline Nekomata

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Reply #101 on: December 07, 2009, 07:58:58 AM
I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.

Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.

Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.

Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.
how many times have i told you to get the [tornado fang] off my internet?



Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #102 on: December 07, 2009, 09:36:04 AM
I don't know?

[spoiler]Ham[/spoiler]



Offline Flame

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Reply #103 on: December 07, 2009, 01:39:37 PM
I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.

Sonic Adventure 2 added onto the story and had some really nice level ideas, but fell victim to too much drama and TheyChangedItNowItSucks.

Sonic Heroes was horrible. On a scale between Megaman X2/8 and Megaman X7, it's Megaman the PC game. You know the one.

Sonic The Hedgehog could have been the next Sonic Adventure1, but someone [tornado fang]'d up.
I fail to see whats so horrible aside from the team gimmick in heroes. Each team has the stages with different things, Dark more enemies (and tougher), Chaotix completely different, (and sorta random) mission objectives, and rose, starts and or ends earlier.
the only raaage stages are certain parts of Mystic mansion, and Rail canyon.

Sonic 06 was nice, I didnt care for the increibly lame load times, but it was a good game. My bigest gripe is the insane Deus ex machina story ending. HAY LETS MAKE  A GAME THAT CHRONOLOGICALLY NEVER HAPPENS!
It honestly did feel like an adventure game almost.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Satoryu

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Reply #104 on: December 07, 2009, 03:41:57 PM
I think Sonic Adventures goodness comes from the fact it was the first 3D sonic(Sonic R Doesn't count) and pretty much followed Sonic 3 & Knuckles's formula of selecting a character and playing the game.

What? That's nothing like S3K. In S3K, all 3 characters (4 if you count Sonic seperate and Sonic+Tails as 2 different characters) play the same with only a few differences, and 2 of them play the exact same stages. In SA1, some characters don't play in certain stages at all, others get very limited versions of the stages, and with the exception of Sonic and Tails their gameplay styles are radically different.

Oh, and you must think MMX7 was the best X game because it was first 3D game, don't you?


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Offline STM

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Reply #105 on: December 07, 2009, 04:58:57 PM
I fail to see whats so horrible aside from the team gimmick in heroes. Each team has the stages with different things, Dark more enemies (and tougher), Chaotix completely different, (and sorta random) mission objectives, and rose, starts and or ends earlier.
the only raaage stages are certain parts of Mystic mansion, and Rail canyon.
Was actually playing this yesterday. I hated how unreliable the homing attack was. It cause plenty of deaths, especially in Casino Park and Rail Canyon. More over, it didn't really have a nice "snap" to it, like it does in Sonic Unleashed PS3/360. I also wasn't too fond of the traction (or lack thereof) characters had.



Offline xnamkcor

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Reply #106 on: December 07, 2009, 06:57:00 PM
What? That's nothing like S3K. In S3K, all 3 characters (4 if you count Sonic seperate and Sonic+Tails as 2 different characters) play the same with only a few differences, and 2 of them play the exact same stages. In SA1, some characters don't play in certain stages at all, others get very limited versions of the stages, and with the exception of Sonic and Tails their gameplay styles are radically different.

Oh, and you must think MMX7 was the best X game because it was first 3D game, don't you?
How does X7 being the first 3D title make it my favourite? Even if you were trying to make some kind of analogy to my Sonic preference, S3&K is my favourite Sonic game.

Someone's bitchy.



Offline Nekomata

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Reply #107 on: December 07, 2009, 08:38:03 PM
your logic has so many [tornado fang]ing holes, xnam.



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #108 on: December 08, 2009, 12:17:16 AM
Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.

Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics


Nah, still don't buy it. That's why I had to go ahead and "fix" it., in my case. 8D

The most I can say about Sonic Adventure 1, is that, by the time the US version rolled around, it fixed up some of the issues that were REALLY detrimental to the original JP Dreamcast build (which was my first experience with the game). As much was wrong with the US version, it's on a whole new level back in the JP original; framerate was all over the damn place, and the camera/controls were even worse. Homing Dash, a lot of the time, refused to work correctly, and the Light Speed Dash was the cause of so many inadvertent deaths. And a number of other things that aren't worthy of mention.

With Adventure being Sonic's relaunch, as well as one of the leading causes to try and sell the Dreamcast in Japan (and a last effort to save the Sega brand over there as well), they really did a lot to drop the ball with the initial release of the game quite a bit. Little wonder why the Japanese never changed their largely indifferent disposition towards Sonic.

And hell, it certainly soured my overall attitude towards Sonic from that point on. 



Offline Hypershell

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Reply #109 on: December 08, 2009, 12:29:50 AM
Well, then it sucks to be you, Ben.   But I think it'd be foolish to prioritize one misstep over any future attempts at correcting it.  Not unless there is some other reason to return to that version when given the choice.



As for Heroes, my gripe with it is that the "character selection" amounts to a difficulty setting and voice preferences, nothing more.  They all tackle the same stages and bosses and there is almost no difference between the teams ability-wise.  Which in itself would have been fine if the game didn't require you to clear it as every one.

Team Chaotix is a whole other beast.  Shadow The Hedgehog's missions were at times a minor annoyance, Team Chaotix was a constant headache.

Technically, you can say that they did that much earlier, with SMB2-JP/Lost Levels.
Lost Levels is one game made in the image of its predecessor.  I meant more long-term.  NSMBW is pretty much is a hats-off to every Mario game from arcade Mario Bros. up to SM64, plus the DS NSMB.

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Because what the MD Sonics did with this aspect was inherently flawed. You could earn the glow before the game was over
I didn't say to copy the Genesis approach step-for-step.  It's pretty commonplace for the Emeralds to hold some story-relevant value these days.  If that continues it pretty much mandates that using their power in stages is restricted to replays.  Nothing wrong with that.

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and neutralize any remaining challenge away before the game was "finished" (except for Sonic 2).
What Sonic 2 were you playing?  Or are you referring to the fact that the Death Egg doesn't have enough rings to activate Super Sonic?  Still doesn't change the fact that you're neutralizing a lot of stages.

In the fact, I'd call it more true of Sonic 2 than the others, since it lacks a save feature, you cannot carry the hope of replaying with the emeralds outside of cheating.  So, if you care, you're driven that much harder to collect them as early as possible.

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There's no other perks to being Super Sonic, like being able to find new things in levels, old bosses having new battle patterns or the like.
Maybe in STH2, but in S3&K that's not entirely true.  The higher jump gives Sonic an easier time accessing branches that would normally require Tails's help.  Super Sonic also breaks walls automatically akin to Knuckles (with the exception of Knuckles' character-exclusive routes, of course), which makes finding hidden paths easier.  You could easily stumble into something you had previously missed.

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The worst you can say about Sunshine is that it felt too gimmicky because of FLUDD and tacked-on Yoshi, and lacked the polish that either 64 or Galaxy possessed. But there was never anything truly detrimental about the game, itself.
I actually didn't mind FLUDD, even if the platforming "bonus stages" were generally the better parts of the game.  It functioned fine and was fun to use, particularly when filling up Petey's gut.  No, my issues with Sunshine lie elsewhere:
1. As you mentioned, Yoshi.  Not only is he available by fetch-quest only, but he's impossible to take between stage entrances/exits, and he EVAPORATES ON CONTACT WITH WATER (you also lose him if he goes hungry long enough, but it takes a long time for that to happen so it's not much of an issue; still stupid).  It's atrocious.  As big a fan as I am of the super dragon, even I would be tempted to ignore him completely if not for the fact that his fruit juice is required to get past certain blocks.
2. Speaking of Yoshi's fate during stage entrances/exits, a fundamental flaw in *ALL* 3D Mario's is the inability to carry anything between stages.  In 64 nobody cared because the game had no permanent power-ups anyway.  Nozzles in Sunshine?  Forget it.  This is the one thing Galaxy did nothing to fix, although it's less noticeable since nearly all of its power-ups are either timed or designed for specific obstacles.  Still, I don't know many who would call a timed Fire Flower a good thing.
3. There is a severe lack of variety in the scenery.  Not since Lost Levels has a Mario game focused on a single visual motiff.  In Sunshine, EVERYTHING is the damn island paradise theme.  It gets old.
4. Going with the lack of variety, and perhaps most detrimental of all, you have the same number of stars as SM64 crammed into fewer stages.  Which means even more repetition in an environment already lacking variety, and a general lack of feeling of "progress" as you strive to collect more Shine Sprites for whatever unknown benchmark is next (Sunshine is the only 3D Mario to not bother telling you what your next collection goal is).

I'm sorry, but the Adventures beat that in my book.  I don't care if the occasional glitch sends you falling through the floor, it's worth it.

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a truly bad camera
I don't think the 3D game exists that has not, at some point, been criticized for a bad camera.  Tiny Huge Island gave me more camera issues than either Adventure.  If it didn't break Mario, it doesn't break Sonic.
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questionable hit/collision detection
One more reason SA2 is a "quality over quantity" issue as compared to SA1.

Sega wasn't exactly master of physics in 2D Sonic games, either.  Many times I've sent Sonic flying through a wall in the oldschool side-scrollers.

Whoa, back the heck up.
Let's get one thing straight.

Other 3D Marios > Super Mario Sunshine = Sonic Adventure 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 3D Sonics

Okay, now I don't feel like I've failed teaching you people, carry on.
*gives Aldo ZEE UPPERCUT!!*
If you fail to differentiate SA2 from "other 3D Sonics", then you are fit to teach nothing.

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Offline Jericho

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Reply #110 on: December 08, 2009, 01:24:04 AM
Just to kinda chime in on something that Hyper brought up, I actually did understand the reason for timing the items one used in Galaxy. The Fire Flower was too damn broken in that it killed most everything that moved (all at the cost of losing the momentum stalling that the standard spin allowed) and Ice Mario's design was created for making creative platform challenges that usually revolved around getting from point A on a water front to point B -- a hidden away area or lesser used shortcut. If these powers were standard fare that could be moved about the levels, it'd certainly be a bit more to the gamebreaking side of things, and on top of that there's also the issue of losing the spin maneuver which really supplemented a good portion of the platforming.

Honestly, I don't really see it as a negative that the 3D games have focused less on keeping items and abilities between levels. I see it more as a change in design focus and as such, I can understand why certain things act differently in one set of games rather than the other. It'd be cool though if there came a game built with deeper 2D Mario routes that would allow for this, but for what the current 3d games are, I enjoy em lots.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #111 on: December 08, 2009, 01:37:01 AM
With Adventure being Sonic's relaunch, as well as one of the leading causes to try and sell the Dreamcast in Japan (and a last effort to save the Sega brand over there as well), they really did a lot to drop the ball with the initial release of the game quite a bit. Little wonder why the Japanese never changed their largely indifferent disposition towards Sonic.

And hell, it certainly soured my overall attitude towards Sonic from that point on. 

So, I wasn't the only one who, when first trying out Sonic Adventure, didn't like it that much?  XD



Offline Jericho

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Reply #112 on: December 08, 2009, 01:54:23 AM
I think it's really hard for anyone who grew up during that era to admit that Sonic Adventure was really a very flawed transition to 3D, myself included. We all fell hard for the Dreamcast hype and-- HOLY [tornado fang] I'M OUTRUNNING A GIANT WHALE, SONIC AM BACK.

Not to say the game was terrible, but it's definitely one of those things that time has gotten the better of.



Offline Protoman Blues

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Reply #113 on: December 08, 2009, 01:57:31 AM
I think it's really hard for anyone who grew up during that era to admit that Sonic Adventure was really a very flawed transition to 3D, myself included. We all fell hard for the Dreamcast hype and-- HOLY [tornado fang] I'M OUTRUNNING A GIANT WHALE, SONIC AM BACK.

LoL, I fell hard for the Dreamcast hype with Virtual ON, Power Stone, & Jet Set. 



Offline HokutoNoBen

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Reply #114 on: December 08, 2009, 03:06:51 AM
Well, then it sucks to be you, Ben.   But I think it'd be foolish to prioritize one misstep over any future attempts at correcting it.  Not unless there is some other reason to return to that version when given the choice.

"One" misstep?

But....isn't that we've gotten? Every 3D Sonic game, in essence, has done more to basically cite Sonic Adventure, and then, some how, foul it up even more, instead of doing more to fix the issues at hand. 06 being the worst of the lot, and Unleashed being possibly the least offensive since the first Adventure (for what it's worth).

I mean, tell me why they focused on gimmicky things like adding more characters, a Tamagotchi-like diversion, weapons and playstyles, but a lot of the fundamental flaws that have plagued the Sonic 3D gameplay formula since at least Adventure-US, have still remained in even Unleashed, a game released just this last year? That just shows a disturbing thing of how Sega doesn't "get it". It goes even beyond how "returning to roots" is a meaningless tagline.  


Quote
Lost Levels is one game made in the image of its predecessor.  I meant more long-term.  NSMBW is pretty much is a hats-off to every Mario game from arcade Mario Bros. up to SM64, plus the DS NSMB.


It can be denied though, that theme-wise, NSMBW is basically an expansion of NSMB. NSMB was very much a homage to a lot of what classic Mario was about, it was all there. Its successor just does it better in every way possible.

Quote
What Sonic 2 were you playing?  Or are you referring to the fact that the Death Egg doesn't have enough rings to activate Super Sonic?

That's the one.  

Quote
Maybe in STH2, but in S3&K that's not entirely true.  The higher jump gives Sonic an easier time accessing branches that would normally require Tails's help.  Super Sonic also breaks walls automatically akin to Knuckles (with the exception of Knuckles' character-exclusive routes, of course), which makes finding hidden paths easier.  You could easily stumble into something you had previously missed.

As far as "meta game" thing went, it still was pretty thin. I guess I can only critique it so much since it was among the first of its kind, but again, I can't stress enough how they would need to give it some serious thought before ever implementing such a feature again.

Quote
1. As you mentioned, Yoshi.  Not only is he available by fetch-quest only, but he's impossible to take between stage entrances/exits, and he EVAPORATES ON CONTACT WITH WATER (you also lose him if he goes hungry long enough, but it takes a long time for that to happen so it's not much of an issue; still stupid).  It's atrocious.  As big a fan as I am of the super dragon, even I would be tempted to ignore him completely if not for the fact that his fruit juice is required to get past certain blocks.
2. Speaking of Yoshi's fate during stage entrances/exits, a fundamental flaw in *ALL* 3D Mario's is the inability to carry anything between stages.  In 64 nobody cared because the game had no permanent power-ups anyway.  Nozzles in Sunshine?  Forget it.  This is the one thing Galaxy did nothing to fix, although it's less noticeable since nearly all of its power-ups are either timed or designed for specific obstacles.  Still, I don't know many who would call a timed Fire Flower a good thing.
3. There is a severe lack of variety in the scenery.  Not since Lost Levels has a Mario game focused on a single visual motiff.  In Sunshine, EVERYTHING is the damn island paradise theme.  It gets old.
4. Going with the lack of variety, and perhaps most detrimental of all, you have the same number of stars as SM64 crammed into fewer stages.  Which means even more repetition in an environment already lacking variety, and a general lack of feeling of "progress" as you strive to collect more Shine Sprites for whatever unknown benchmark is next (Sunshine is the only 3D Mario to not bother telling you what your next collection goal is).

While valid complaints, there's one big thing to note here: they're all aesthetic, in scope. None of these quirks, of which some I agree with, in the end, do anything to actually hamper the actual way the game plays. None of these things do anything to showcase truly BAD coding and play-testing at work. It'd be the same thing as me attacking a modern day Sonic game for its terrible storylines. It may be valid, but it has no bearing on the gameplay itself.

There lies the difference between the complaints that you could have with Sunshine, as compared to what I have with 95% of the Sonic games made in the last few years. There's the aesthetic, and then there's actually things relating to the actual game engine itself.  

Quote
I'm sorry, but the Adventures beat that in my book.  I don't care if the occasional glitch sends you falling through the floor, it's worth it.

....



...Yeah, nothing more to talk about in this particular argument. 8D


Just to kinda chime in on something that Hyper brought up, I actually did understand the reason for timing the items one used in Galaxy. The Fire Flower was too damn broken in that it killed most everything that moved (all at the cost of losing the momentum stalling that the standard spin allowed) and Ice Mario's design was created for making creative platform challenges that usually revolved around getting from point A on a water front to point B -- a hidden away area or lesser used shortcut. If these powers were standard fare that could be moved about the levels, it'd certainly be a bit more to the gamebreaking side of things, and on top of that there's also the issue of losing the spin maneuver which really supplemented a good portion of the platforming.

Honestly, I don't really see it as a negative that the 3D games have focused less on keeping items and abilities between levels. I see it more as a change in design focus and as such, I can understand why certain things act differently in one set of games rather than the other. It'd be cool though if there came a game built with deeper 2D Mario routes that would allow for this, but for what the current 3d games are, I enjoy em lots.

Yeah, this.

Honestly, you could say that it's just another one of the design philosophy that was inherited by Yoshi's Island. Temporary power-ups. Hip Drop. Red Coins. Spherical Worlds (for Galaxy). And I'm sure there's others from whence that came...



Offline Solar

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Reply #115 on: December 08, 2009, 03:17:12 AM
This talk really makes me wonder, am I seriously the only person that's never had any of the commonly complained glitches or problems with the camera in ANY 3D Sonic before 06 (because I don't have a way to play it)?


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Offline Jericho

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Reply #116 on: December 08, 2009, 03:30:15 AM
I used to be that way Tai, until I started experimenting like I always do in games like that and found myself clipping through the ground in a very specific place in Emerald Coast in Sonic Adventure. Ah boost panel into the abyss, how I love thee. XD



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Reply #117 on: December 08, 2009, 03:35:21 AM
Quote
author=Taiyo link=topic=3033.msg182427#msg182427 date=1260238632]
This talk really makes me wonder, am I seriously the only person that's never had any of the commonly complained glitches or problems with the camera in ANY 3D Sonic before 06 (because I don't have a way to play it)?

Well, aside from easy bosses in StH, I for one actually felt no problem with StH's controls. :/

Reusing a boss for another stage is one thing, being that same easy boss is another.

Workshop/DA/YT/Photobucket なにかんがえてるの!?
So its about ass now huh? EVEN THE ASS HAS 'EXCEEDED'!

One mention of LEGENDS and everyone goes batshit.  :\

Yep, every time when someone mentions that game people get energized for an apparent reason whatsoever. It's like this everywhere else, trust me.

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Offline Satoryu

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Reply #118 on: December 08, 2009, 03:37:00 AM
When it came time for me to adjust the camera in a 3D Sonic, it always felt very clunky and uncooperative. But then again, I usually don't have to worry about the camera in these games. It usually stays fixed behind me, where it belongs. And after beating the games once or twice (I'm mostly referring to the 2 Adventure games here), there was little need to rotate the camera for exploring outside of Treasure Hunting stages.


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Offline Solar

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Reply #119 on: December 08, 2009, 03:38:16 AM
I used to be that way Tai, until I started experimenting like I always do in games like that and found myself clipping through the ground in a very specific place in Emerald Coast in Sonic Adventure. Ah boost panel into the abyss, how I love thee. XD

Oh, I think I remember that and I think it's the only time it's ever happened to me.


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Offline Flame

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Reply #120 on: December 08, 2009, 01:27:04 PM
I dont see any of the problems with sonic 06 aside from leading that all you are seeing... :\
The bosses arent great, and it feels as if there werent enough, but I still liked it.
I find it fun to know they considered making Super Sonic unlockable through that mysterious "Rainbow" Gem that was left unused in the game. (all it seems to do is when the button is pressed, is show Sonic doing a flip and seemingly do the pose for going super) Then theres also the Supersonic in stage data unlockable through hacking.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Satoryu

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Reply #121 on: December 08, 2009, 05:49:28 PM
Yeah, but at the same time it's a real middle finger to see that it's not in the final product.

I played a good portion of Sonic 06 on my friend's PS3 a year ago. I didn't think it could get worse than the demo, but it kinda did. The game is still very slow and clunky. I'm not sure it it's because of that that the stages seem to take forever. And it's really glitchy, too. I mean, REALLY glitchy. I couldn't do [parasitic bomb] as Knuckles. Never has climbing up a wall been such a chore. And did we really have to play through 2 stages of Adventure 1 all over again?

My friend bought it not because he was expecting a fun game. He bought it purely for the lol factor, to make fun of the terrible plot and acting, to see just how bad it really was.


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Offline Flame

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Reply #122 on: December 08, 2009, 06:53:04 PM
I rarely encounter any glitches. The only thing I can complain about, is as Knuckles OR Rouge, jumping FROM a wall seems to be difficult to do.
Clunky? the auto run ones might feel that way, but Since Ive played Unleashed, I cant complain about it. XD
Is only natural it would seem bad. Also, I liked the little nod to SA1. Who knows, maybe it was the same Orca too.
"Hmm? is that... ITS THAT BLUE GUY AGAIN! MUST... CHASE..."

I liked the game, because of how they handled Shadow. He worked the way he SHOULD have worked in ShTHH. That includes the vehicles. They were much more fun to use. Although Chaos Blast during Chaos boost seemed to be a rather useless maneuver... As you kinda needed to be RIGHT next to the enemy for them to get hit.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.


Offline Satoryu

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Reply #123 on: December 08, 2009, 08:17:18 PM
Little nod? They [tornado fang]ing COPIED the god damn levels.


What happens in Vegas stays on Youtube. I also stream on Twitch from time to time.


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Reply #124 on: December 08, 2009, 08:33:44 PM
So? I thought It was fun. I didnt mind.

...When Larry the reploid accountant goes maverick of his own accord, he's certainly formidable during tax season, but he isn't going to provide X the challenge needed to make him grow as a warrior and reach his potential.