Topic: X and Zero: Their DNA and their souls.

[Thanatos-Zero]

After reading of Marshmallow's recent and large posts, I came to a solution why X and Zero can keep up with more powerfull enemies than the last ones over centuries.
As we all know does X and Zero posess very spezial DNA programms which gives them the power of their defeated foes. In the hand we have the Weapon Variable System, which copies the enemy's power to a new weapon. In the other hand we have the Learning System, which mimics the technic and power of the defeated enemy.
These programms helps partially against new obstacles. The real benefactor of their growing powers lies within their DNA Souls. They grow whenever they pass obstacles and ordeals in time. As they grow their bodies becomes more powerful. Would a mechanical body lacks a DNA Soul, the body would be nothing more like scrap metal as said in Xtreme 2.
All the expierences along with the conciousness and a certain energy inside of it (Justice and Evil Energy) makes a DNA Soul powerful, so the bodies which contains them makes them strong.
Now lets move to Omega and Zero.
Even when the copy body of Zero was flawed, his DNA Soul or better said his heart fixed the flaws over the time in which Zero fought in this body. The body became more powerful through his ordeals with NA and Vile. In the end, Zero destroyed Omega, who used the original body.

Besides of the concept of worrying, all those things allows limitless potencial and limitless danger.
Or in other words, those things allows X and Zero to evolve.


Now I like to know, what you think of my result. You are as always open to correct me.

<wii>

Edit: One thing I forgot to tell. When the body changes through the DNA Soul, it is actually the Body DNA which changes.

In Gate's case, the Body DNA of Zero changes his body drastical. Either his own DNA Soul got the change or only the body.

[Soultrigger]

ZERO

POWER ????rp
SPEED ????rp



AND YOU AS
MEGA MAN X

POWER over9000!!!rp
SPEED over9000!!!rp

[Align]

* Align is not amused

[Flame]

Soultrigger used over 9000 joke!

... Its not very effective.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Hm... Is there anyone who likes to share his/her thoughts with me about the results of my observation?

[Zan]

X's limitless potential is a physical attribute, it is the ability to evolve, to exceed all Repliroid. It's not that his "soul" grows more powerful, it's that his determination for his cause, which is born from worrying and defines "heart", drives him  under extreme circumstances to exceed the limits of his body. In combat, X's determination forces his physical abilities to constantly grow until he has succeeded his enemies.

Zero on the other hand, does not have limitless evolutionary potential. Where X is more power growth orientated, Zero is more skill growth orientated, though Zero has considerable power regardless, just as much as X himself as considerable skill.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Alright, it seems that I have misunderstood the concept about limitless potencial, but how do you think about the DNA Souls?
DNA Souls are as we know also known as Cyber Elfs and therefore able to alter reality. Built on that thought, I constructed the theory that when the DNA Soul becomes more potent and powerful, that its container, the body changes through the reality altering powers of the DNA Souls.

Of course there are other methods to make that happen.
One thing is to use the Copy Chip by using its ability to utilise the DNA of other reploids for the own enhancement, like Lumine demonstrated it to us.

<wii>

[Soultrigger]

Fine, hate on me. 

[Hypershell]

Thing about DNA souls, is that I do not believe that a Reploid's DNA and a Reploid's soul are necessarily synonymous.  Certainly they are linked, but that's not the same thing.  In Xtreme2 Gareth and Berkana are seizing Reploid's souls, but you do not need to erase one's soul to simply download their DNA data.

A change in DNA by definition would yield a change in the body.  Increasing the strength of the soul is another matter, it would seem to enhance performance, but whether it enhances the mechanics of the body is arguable (see X vs. Sigma in TDoS).  Remember that heavy use of the soul's power (such as reality alteration) will drain it, hence the death of most Cyber-Elves when used, and X throwing in the towel at the end of Z3.

X's limitless potential is a physical attribute, it is the ability to evolve, to exceed all Repliroid. It's not that his "soul" grows more powerful, it's that his determination for his cause, which is born from worrying and defines "heart", drives him  under extreme circumstances to exceed the limits of his body. In combat, X's determination forces his physical abilities to constantly grow until he has succeeded his enemies.

Zero on the other hand, does not have limitless evolutionary potential. Where X is more power growth orientated, Zero is more skill growth orientated, though Zero has considerable power regardless, just as much as X himself as considerable skill.

I think that the "evolutionary potential" that Zero lacks is not so much power-oriented as it is heart-oriented.  While all Reploids, Zero included, have heart/conscience/suffering circuit/whatever, X's goes deeper than any other.  X has the ability to empathize with humanity on a level that Zero, and in fact most Reploids, cannot, thus making them unfit to "change the world", as said in Z4.  To X this does not apply.  That's what makes him the superior Hunter.  Zero does not take it upon himself to direct history but rather lends his power to those he believes in, and the first he believed in was X.

I have to disagree with the notion that Zero does not grow in power in the same manner as X (I don't know if this is what you were saying, but your text could be read with the implication that Zero is strong but doesn't get any stronger).  X had the potential to defeat Zero as early as X2, if Zero was not growing in power as well as skill he'd be long since left behind in the dust.  Yet many games in both the near and distant future establish Zero as continuing to be a force to be reckoned with, even when hindered by amnesia.

[Zan]

I have to disagree with the notion that Zero does not grow in power in the same manner as X (I don't know if this is what you were saying, but your text could be read with the implication that Zero is strong but doesn't get any stronger).  X had the potential to defeat Zero as early as X2, if Zero was not growing in power as well as skill he'd be long since left behind in the dust.  Yet many games in both the near and distant future establish Zero as continuing to be a force to be reckoned with, even when hindered by amnesia.

The way I see it, Zero does grow in power over time, either from the virus or from some other factor, but X has a different factor which can make him rapidly grow during the battle when put under severely stressful situation. The basic difference is that Zero has always been amongst the big boys, whereas X is an underdog that rises to new heights to meet the situation.

Look at his battles with Sigma and VAVA in which he experiences sudden boosts in power to win at all costs. Look at his battles with Zero and look at his battles with High Max. It would appear that Zero's power grows steadily across the games, whereas it's X theme to start out as the underdog yet still beat them all in the end. In contrast to Zero's steady growth between games, X changes within the game.

I suppose you could liken this to X's pacifistic nature. In his dislike for violence, he's always reduced to his basic form, having to start his growth all over again. Only when it's truly called for it, X unleashes the big guns.

[Keno]

I like how Zero can make any weapon a thousand times better, be it a pipe made to block a saber or a slug thrower made to shoot charge shots.

[Acid]

I like how Zero can make any weapon a thousand times better, be it a pipe made to block a saber or a slug thrower made to shoot charge shots.

Just like real life!

[Keno]

Point is, when it comes down to it, X only has Shining Finger if his Busters are gone, whereas Zero can use anything.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Thing about DNA souls, is that I do not believe that a Reploid's DNA and a Reploid's soul are necessarily synonymous.  Certainly they are linked, but that's not the same thing.  In Xtreme2 Gareth and Berkana are seizing Reploid's souls, but you do not need to erase one's soul to simply download their DNA data.

A change in DNA by definition would yield a change in the body.  Increasing the strength of the soul is another matter, it would seem to enhance performance, but whether it enhances the mechanics of the body is arguable (see X vs. Sigma in TDoS).  Remember that heavy use of the soul's power (such as reality alteration) will drain it, hence the death of most Cyber-Elves when used, and X throwing in the towel at the end of Z3.

However if Cyberelfs are used as satellites, they do not die. As long as they act around the user as satellites, they can grant him their powers.
With this in mind, we can certainly say, that the growing of the soul affects the body as well.
As I said in my opening post: When the body lacks a soul, it will be nothing more like scrap metall.

[Align]

Unless the satellite elves still do reality alteration, just on a smaller more manageable scale.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Would it be smaller, the effect would be not the same. My theory is that they are linked with the power reactor of the user, so they won´t suffer energy loss at all.

[Hypershell]

Proximity is not the determining factor.  The alternative to satellite is fusion, which kills the elf.  Within is closer proximity, and more direct access to the host's power reactor, than orbit.

Just because the elf isn't dead doesn't mean that some power isn't consumed.  X isn't dead at the end of Z3, he's just easing up.  But it's not unreasonable to think that a lesser power drain would allow the elf to manage it and continue living.  Bear in mind that satellites come with a limitation, that being the number of links that can be made, whereas fusion does not have that restriction.  This would seem to indicate some interface on the user's end.

Altering reality takes a lot of power, so much that a program entity utilizing that much power renders itself vulnerable to substance world weapons (see Nightmare, and Sigma Virus enemies in X2/X3).  Focusing on a particular host through a specially designed interface, it's no surprise that the burdens would be eased, thus the elf's survival and continued support.

The basic difference is that Zero has always been amongst the big boys, whereas X is an underdog that rises to new heights to meet the situation.

This would explain why Zero is less prone to sudden power leaps than X, but the fact that the need doesn't arise as often doesn't mean that he's less capable of it happening.  Remember Command Mission?  He's out-matched by Jentra in the same manner as X was on the ropes against Jango, but he still saves X's tail against a SFM-enhanced Shadow.

[Keno]

Remember Command Mission?

Unfortunately not as much as I'd like. It's been a while, & I haven't the foggiest where my GC copy is.

[Flame]

tl;dr - Zero is Kenpachi and X is Ichigo.

lol, I suppose.

[Ramzal]

Trying to make actual sense out of the DNA reploid thing is nearly impossible. Every living thing has DNA, even viruses have DNA as well. However, DNA inside of a robot is something that is...nonsense. But to go with the flow, when DNA changes--it's is not an evolution. At all. It is a mutation of it's structure. Mutations are caused by radiation, viruses, cellular meiosis, or errors in DNA replication. When that occurs, the host of the mutated DNA has to change to accommodate the mutation. However, that doesn't mean that the result is always positive. In fact, most results of this process tend to be negative, the host's structure tends to be rather confused of the mutation, and can overcompensate, or even cause several key cells to undergo apoptosis.  

All things considered, from sheer statistical odds, X's body should have rejected his constant mutating DNA and his body should have gone through a computerized apoptosis. DNA and a soul cannot be the same thing. DNA refers to the chemical, organic, and mineral structure of an organism. Meaning, that all that makes X, function wise is in his DNA. However it'd be ridiculous to say that the soul is there.

A rapid mutation in DNA would never mean anything positive coming from it. Well... in MOST cases.

Edit: I should add, to be fair, that the slim chance that DNA undergoing rapid mutations, and it turning out well tends to leave the host nearly impervious to certain illness. So, if considering the small chance that X IS in that statistical impossibility in my opinion, that would explain his near immunity to the Sigma virus. It could also explain why he explodes from being saturated by too much of it. His body would initially attempt to adapt to the virus, but would fail from the sheer amount infection and X would indefinitely undergo apoptosis---I've noticed that I have yet to explain it's definition. But "Programed Celluar Death." Seems fitting of a name, if you ask me. 

[Hypershell]

However, DNA inside of a robot is something that is...nonsense.

A free-willed artificial being that feels emotional states and suffers moral dilemmas is nonsense.  It's called sci-fi.  DNA is essentially information stored at the molecular level in a 4-base system.  If you've figured out how to make a pile of circuits feel happy, pain, and judge right and wrong, then mimicking nature's information storage as opposed to the binary system we use in computers is no small stretch.  The idea of mimicking biological mechanisms for use in technology is nothing new, neither in fiction nor in reality.

And not that I'm arguing with it, but classifying a DNA change as a mutation and therefore not evolution is a highly speculative and philosophical statement.  Darwinian evolution outright requires a DNA change in order for genetically incompatible species to result from a common ancestor.  It's simply assumed that such would occur during reproduction.

"Evolution", however, is an exceptionally broad term that can literally refer to "any process of formation or growth" whatsoever.  Whether biological, cultural, long-term, or short-term, it's all a matter of context.  When one speaks of evolution in the biological sense, whether Darwinian or not, they are usually referring to something which encompasses multiple generations.  In the context of an individual this definition is invalid.  Therefore pegging a "mutation" as not qualifying as "evolution" of X's individual self is a completely invalid line of discussion.  It would be slightly more accurate to say it does not constitute the evolution of Reploids, if it is assumed that X has no way of passing his benefits onto others.  But even that's debatable since benefits of X may be passed on to other Reploids second-hand through research.

But whether X's DNA does alter over the course of his life at all is a whole other hill of beans.  That's speculation.  Having made a distinction between DNA data and a Reploid's soul, which as I discussed earlier need not be synonymous even if they are linked, I don't see what part of X's history necessitates his DNA being altered.  And even if we do establish that, we would have to also consider the conditions, as an intentional change and a circumstantial change would carry very different issues.

[Ramzal]

The idea of mimicking biological mechanisms for use in technology is nothing new, neither in fiction nor in reality.

That technology is highly flawed to date. Namely, we still cannot understand a broad amount of information inside of the genome. Only within the last fifty years have we begun to understand how to scan DNA sequences without killing ourselves with cancer. I am just saying that trying to rationalize it is ridiculous. That and DNA = Pain, angst and feelings is not quite on the mark. That's more hormonal response to the brain. Now, mimicking THAT would not be much trouble.

And not that I'm arguing with it, but classifying a DNA change as a mutation and therefore not evolution is a highly speculative and philosophical statement.  Darwinian evolution outright requires a DNA change in order for genetically incompatible species to result from a common ancestor.  It's simply assumed that such would occur during reproduction.

My apologies. I worded what I meant to say wrong. What I intended to say is that most DNA mutations cannot be considered evolution. A large amount of DNA mutations are considered an infection or illness, unless it benefits the host. In which case, would be 7% of the time. Evolution occurred to those which had a chance of survival, in comparison to the mass which died. It is not only figured by reproduction, but also how much or how little say--for an example and appendage is used. Safe mutations occur slowly. When it is rapid, the body cannot keep up.

"Evolution", however, is an exceptionally broad term that can literally refer to "any process of formation or growth" whatsoever.

And evolution required a gradual growth rate. If it were rapid DNA changes, for each species, I promise you, that nothing would survive due to everything being wiped out by viral infections on a genetic level.

Whether biological, cultural, long-term, or short-term, it's all a matter of context.  When one speaks of evolution in the biological sense, whether Darwinian or not, they are usually referring to something which encompasses multiple generations.  In the context of an individual this definition is invalid.  Therefore pegging a "mutation" as not qualifying as "evolution" of X's individual self is a completely invalid line of discussion.

The reason I would personally not consider it a evolution is that a mutation occurring that rapidly, that frequently would almost never result in a beneficial way. If his changes were paced, and steady that would be one thing. But something constantly going through mutation would not me defined as an evolutionary step.  

It would be slightly more accurate to say it does not constitute the evolution of Reploids, if it is assumed that X has no way of passing his benefits onto others.  But even that's debatable since benefits of X may be passed on to other Reploids second-hand through research.

If that were the case, Reploids would be immune or have a resistance to the Sigma virus. Thus, why it's debatable.

[Hypershell]

That technology is highly flawed to date. Namely, we still cannot understand a broad amount of information inside of the genome.

Sci.  Fi.

I guess I've been watching Star Trek too long or something.

Also I was not referring exclusively to genetic information.  There's a lot more to the physiology of living things than that.

Safe mutations occur slowly. When it is rapid, the body cannot keep up.

And at what point did we clarify which is going on within X?  Because I missed the part where we established that his DNA has been altered at all, much less the circumstance of such.  Thanatos's opening post has been dismissed by virtually every response as a misunderstanding.

Though on your particular rapid-changes point I would argue that you're mixing up the means and the ends; the qualifier for whether or not the changes qualify as evolution is survivability.  It just happens that rapid changes in a biological organism decrease their survivability, due to the fact that "rapid" is being associated with "random".  The body must adapt after the point and there is no realistic way it could do so.  But if any change within X is something he was designed to do, then irrelevant of pacing, which is in and of itself pure speculation, survivability had to have been accounted for somewhere.  Otherwise it by definition would not be design, save if Light intended for X to commit suicide.

[Ramzal]

I was simply reinforcing that point and clarifying it. And at the same time, playing devil's advocate to the "If this is true" part. With all honesty, I was slightly speaking from both sides of the field.

[Nekomata]

this topic:
"Do robots dream of electric sheep?"
*shitstorm and lame jokes*