Topic: Ancient Theories/Fanon

[The Great Gonzo]

[quoteDo I really need to draw a complicated timeline diagram explaining how "Rockman Blues" works? It's the same way as "Rockman Elecman" and "Rockman Roll" operate.][/quote]

No. I wasn't talking about the "player's choice"; I was talking about how Proto's story conflicts with the series.

I'm beginning to loathe this argument with quite a passion. It just doesn't feel like we're getting anywhere with it.

[Zan]

You've brought in every single game you possibly could to try and uncanonize it, but you can't.  You just can't.  Because it causes no conflict.  It seems like you're clinging to the wrong notion of it not being in continuity (in US continuity that is).

If you insist on going with something made up by localization as canon, then of course you're never going to see how it clashes with the original; you're going to make up any excuse to make it fit.

First you've tried insisting that it doesn't work within the story.  But it does well enough.  Then you say it doesn't work with Protoman's story.  But you refute your own point later by saying Wily couldn't have built Proto anyway.  Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway.  Then you say it doesn't work with itself.  But it does.  And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.

Let's reiterate what we were talking about back then:

-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily does not work with ProtoMan's original story from the gams; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "overall japanese canon."
-The RS-cartoon notion that ProtoMan was built by Wily is in conflict the US MM1 manual; the RS-cartoon does not fit with the "US-canon of MM1 manual's"

Neither argument refutes the former. It merely establishes all three as distinct entities. THAT is what we were talking about back then.

Then you say it wouldn't work with the Japapanese stuff, which wasn't the point anyway.  Then you say it doesn't work with itself.  But it does.  And now you're saying it was never referenced again in the manuals or games which also is irrelevant to it being canon.

What you say is irrelevant is exactly the point that IS relevant!. The US MM1 is something made up in localization. The current releases are all direct translations from the Japanese games. Those basic facts state that the MM1 manual of old and the recent releases are incompatible by definition, therefore not the same canon

No. I wasn't talking about the "player's choice"; I was talking about how Proto's story conflicts with the series.

But the only conflict is the player's choice of playing as ProtoMan. By choosing ProtoMan you have put him in a situation in which he never was. If you choose Rock, the stories continues as normal. Rockman Blues does not lead into Rockman2, but the past leading up to Rockman Blues is the same past that leads up to Rockman Rockman.

Rockman Blues
|
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Rockman Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3
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Rockman > Rockman 2 > Rockman 3

Likewise:

R&F (Forte)
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R&F (Rock)>Rockman9

and

ZX (Aile) > ZXA (Grey)
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ZX (Vent) > ZXA (Ashe)

and

MHX (VAVA)
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MHX (X) > X2
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X > X2

[Gauntlet101010]

Whichever, I really think you're just counting what you wanna count while going to extrordinary lengths to not count what you wanna count.  It seems to me that your version of coninuity in the US games is what you decide and not what Capcom USA has decided.  So I won't buy it.

[The Great Gonzo]

What you say is irrelevant is exactly the point that IS relevant!. The US MM1 is something made up in localization. The current releases are all direct translations from the Japanese games. Those basic facts state that the MM1 manual of old and the recent releases are incompatible by definition, therefore not the same canon

Wait...it sounds to me like the other manuals retconned the MM1 manual out of existence, so wouldn't that mean that both regions are the same canon then?

but the past leading up to Rockman Blues is the same past that leads up to Rockman Rockman.

But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.

[Gauntlet101010]

Only if you accept his line of logic that the other manuals retconned MM1's out of existence.  Which I do not.

[Flame]

Wait...it sounds to me like the other manuals retconned the MM1 manual out of existence, so wouldn't that mean that both regions are the same canon then?

that is exactly what it means. nowadays we have very little of the old localization blunders of old. plus, even though the US games had Megaman discover that Proto was his brother, where in the japaese story he still doesnt know, we dont have the glaring error of Wily having worked with Light as an assistant. the folowng games to 1 corrected that localization change.

But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.

The way I see it, any of the playable characters besides Megaman in Rockman Rockman, are what if's, they are alternate possibilities, alternate timelines in which that robot was left. but in all, they are not relevant to the current story, they only add some food for thought, nothing else. they are not what really happened in the end.

you decide and not what Capcom USA has decided.

thats the thing, Capcom of USA has no say in the story. what Capcom japan says is the story is the story. what Capcom of US says is the story is irrelevant and not canon. the game is made by Capcom japan, and the people there are the ones who decide what the story is. they then leave capcom US to tanslate the games and localize them. Capcom US decided it would be a cool twist to add that Wily was Lights assistant and that he rebelled. So they wrote that into their manual. However, that is not what actually happened. It is not canon. there is no such thing as a Japanese Canon and a US canon. Its just one, mega/rockman canon. only the Localization changes things to better suit their personal tastes, and what they think the local audience will respond better to. that does not make that the true story.

If a Shakespeare book says that Romeo and Juliet in the end killed themselves because the other was dead, Romeo with poison, Juliet with a knife, that is the story that Shakespeare wrote, correct? now, when that book is localized in France, they decide to change it so that Mercutio was actually Romeo's brother. and that Juliette had a sister named mary who died before the story started. That is not the proper story, that is a non canon add on to appeal to the French audience better. it was not what its creator intended, and therefore not canon.

this is the same thing, basically.

[Gauntlet101010]

Capcom of US says is the story is irrelevant and not canon.

Its just one, mega/rockman canon. only the Localization changes things to better suit their personal tastes, and what they think the local audience will respond better to. that does not make that the true story.

Well, it's canon to the games Capcom USA puts out of course.  

The entire story is based off the Japanese games, true.  The Japanese storyline is the main storyline, also true.  However, whatever changes Capcom USA makes (for instance, the name changes) becomes canon for that region.  It becomes canon in regards to that story.  What you're doing is just picking and coosing what's canon, which isn't right at all.

It's like when Sentai was made into Power Rangers.  Or when Sailor Moon was dubbed.  It doesn't matter at all what the "true story" is.  Only what the story we're talking about it is.  And, in this case, we're talking about the US series of games.  Whatever is given afterwards is additive, not subtractive.

In this case, everything has ben additive.  Nothing has overwritten that point.  So MM1's story still holds true.  Especially since it's been so influencial here.  While not canon tot he games, it solidifies it in the series in people's minds.  Just as MM knowing Proto is his brother.  It's been additive, not overwriting.  Which is why you desperately have to scramble to disprove it.

So you can toss in every single game you want, but ultimately you're just confusing the issue and making your point by befuddling everyone else; not by being right.

[Flame]

Yknow, Im just going to back out of this argument now... It was confusing to begin with, and doesn't seem like it will get any better. I added my 2 Cents, im outta here.

*backs away from the topic slowly*

[Gauntlet101010]

  Since it has no conflict with anything, Wily being Light's assistant is still canon.  For the US game canon in which Capcom USA, not Capcom Japan, calls the shots.  It's ... a really simple thing, really.Just like, in the US game canon, it's "Megaman" and "Protoman" and not "Rockman" and "Blues".  Capcom USA makes the story for the USA games.  It doesn't matter what the "true story" is.

[Flame]

If Capcom Japan tells them to change something they have to though.

[Gauntlet101010]

If Capcom Japan tells them to change something they have to though.

I'm not entirely sure the process works like that.  But, assuming it does, then they change it and that change becomes canon for the USA game continuity.  However ... Wily being Light's assistant?  That hasn't changed.  Until it's outright contradicted their word (especially their written word) > what any fan thinks or conjectures.

There's many canon continuities (Ariga's manga, the Ruby Spears cartoon, Captain N) and even micro contrinuities (the PC games, Marvel VS Capcom, Rockman Strategy) ... if it's officially made or licenced it's canon.  The only thing that's not canon is doujinshi, fan ficiton, fan art, video game magazines ... I'm not entirely certain interviews and such are canon either since author intent is not always realised.

But I will allow this: the Japanese game continuity is the most relevant one, since everything stems from it.  But it's going too far to say it's the only one, or even the only one that counts.

[Zan]

But Proto's line towards the end would imply that he knew Wily was a nutter before the events of MM1/MMPU (and that he ran off before he got the shades and scarf, since Wily doesn't recognize him). That's not the same past that leads up to RMRM or MM3.

He learned Wily was a nutter at the beginning of Rockman Blues (The title screen changes from Rockman Rockman to Rockman Blues, Rockman Roll, etc.) when he viewed that broadcast. As for Blues' shades and scarf, their origins are rather unexplained, it's mostly just a style thing.

Whether or not Wily recognizes him.. as we've discussed; I believe he does. Or at the least, if he didn't recognize him immediately, it's just because he had to look twice to comprehend it was really Blues standing there. But all of this would be conjecture. Really, as this single line is an anomaly, I think we'd better ask the question of what the original Japanese script said.

in the US game canon, it's "Megaman" and "Protoman" and not "Rockman" and "Blues".

So which is it? AquaMan or SpoutMan? YamatoMan or JapanMan? Treble or Gospel? Rock or Mega? Volnutt or Voulnutt?

In this case, everything has ben additive.  Nothing has overwritten that point.

I presume all of this is true as well:

-The time institute Wily stole an experimental time machine from is called Chrono Institute.
-The experimental time machine Wily stole from the time institute is called Time Skimmer.

-MegaMan told Wily to die!
-MegaMan is more than a robot!

-Bradbury K. Wells, Times Staff Writer, reported on X's attack on the Maverick Production Facility.
-Serges was collecting Zero's parts.
-Serges was trying to achieve Zero's "unification" to fulfill a prophecy.
-Sigma should have studied the blueprints closer.

-Doppler used his Neuro Computer to prevent abnormal behavior in Reploids (even though said neuro computer is his own brain?)
-X defeated Vile years before the events of X3.
-Vile will haunt X till the day he dies.

-The galaxy is at peace after centuries of fighting the Reploid War (even though it's still 21XX, the war started several months ago and there is no peace?)
-Wily used to be X's comrade.

[The Great Gonzo]

-The time institute Wily stole an experimental time machine from is called Chrono Institute.
-The experimental time machine Wily stole from the time institute is called Time Skimmer.

Wait, wasn't that in the original manual? Or at least hinted at?

[Gauntlet101010]

Well, now, I didn't say that the US game continuity was great, did I?

Again, you're bringing in irrelevant things and irrelevant series and making things needlessly complicated into a discussion which is strictly about Wily being Light's assistant in the US game continuity.  We can lump all of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.

[HyperSonicEXE]

Yeah, and Gate and Alia's abilities came out of nowhere, too.

I guess that makes Alia somehow a part of Roll's lineage?

I cannot wait for that Wily/Serges/Isoc theory to be dispelled. We've seen Wily's presence at work since at least X5, if you don't count Zero and believe X's imperfect coding is what caused the virus. I don't doubt that some strains of the virus would lend its hosts to behave in the same mannerisms, in a Carl Jung sort of way, as Dr. Wily. But if Serges and Isoc were in any way inhabited by Dr. Wily directly, that egomaniac would have made it known.

On topic:
Iris = Mother Elf. I still think it's possible, but it probably won't turn out to be true. Zero will just remember Mother Elf from way back when, and that's that.

[Flame]

Well, now, I didn't say that the US game continuity was great, did I?

Again, you're bringing in irrelevant things and irrelevant series and making things needlessly complicated into a discussion which is strictly about Wily being Light's assistant.  We can lump all of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.

You were the one going on about two seperate canons. and you accuse Zan of "choosing what he believes" and saying that if Capcom US says it, it is part of the US canon. by that logic, (or how I understood it anyway,) you would mean that those things are also part of the American canon.

You cant say all that then say it is irrelevant information, since then you are picking and choosing as well.

[Gauntlet101010]

You were the one going on about two seperate canons. and you accuse Zan of "choosing what he believes" and saying that if Capcom US says it, it is part of the US canon. by that logic, (or how I understood it anyway,) you would mean that those things are also part of the American canon.

You cant say all that then say it is irrelevant information, since then you are picking and choosing as well.

I never said it wasn't part of US Capcom game canon.  I said it's irrelevant to bring it up at all.  Because it is part of Capcom game canon.   It is not under dispute.

[Flame]

Not really. We are refuting your point on "US capcom game canon"

Plus, this is RPM. are you SURPRISED that it went from Wily and protoman to this?

[Gauntlet101010]

Not really. We are refuting your point on "US capcom game canon"

Plus, this is RPM. are you SURPRISED that it went from Wily and protoman to this?

You're not refuting it very well.  

You've just made a lost of reasons why there *is* a US game canon at all.  Because all those things?  They'd be in it.  It's not a refutation if you're ... getting the idea.

edit: No, not surprised that the topic tried to derail itself.  But I keep on topic.  Eye on the ball.  

[Zan]

Wait, wasn't that in the original manual? Or at least hinted at?

The name of the experimental time machine and the time institute that build it are unspecified in the original manual. Likewise, I forgot to mention in my previous post they pretty much made up the notion of "approximately 37.426 years" into the future. (Just like the names, the years were never specified.)

We can lump all  of that into the "arguments that are meant to confuse and misdirect" category.

I think the US manuals do a good job of confusing and misdirecting in itself.

Hmm.. I think I forgot to mention Monsteropolis, that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids. I remember distinctly that MegaMan, chosen defender of the universe and its inhabitants, dared to single-handedly penetrate seven separate empires of Monsteropolis, eliminating the leaders and followers of these sovereignties.

Care to explain to me what the hell I just said?...

On a much more serious note, MegaMan resisted reprogramming. I'm pretty sure Powered Up overruled the manual right then and there. MegaMan never resisted reprogramming, he was never reprogrammed to begin with, Wily had no need for a pile of scrap metal with no special abilities! Likewise, MegaMan8's manual and MegaMan4's intro seems to implicate no reprogramming of MegaMan took place either.

So between Monsteropolis that strange multi-faceted land of robot-like humanoids and MegaMan resisting reprogramming he was never subjected to, why were we to believe Wily was Light's assistant again?

I cannot wait for that Wily/Serges/Isoc theory to be dispelled. We've seen Wily's presence at work since at least X5, if you don't count Zero and believe X's imperfect coding is what caused the virus. I don't doubt that some strains of the virus would lend its hosts to behave in the same mannerisms, in a Carl Jung sort of way, as Dr. Wily. But if Serges and Isoc were in any way inhabited by Dr. Wily directly, that egomaniac would have made it known.

There's fairly little to counter the Wily/Sagesse/Isoc theory. Inafune himself said Wily was brought back by the Virus. Between what Inafune said and what Sagesse and Isoc actually did in the plot, you'd raise more plotholes saying they aren't Dr. Wily than saying that they are. For example, how can both Sagesse and Isoc do the impossible? Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable, row row fight the power.

[Flame]

You're not refuting it very well. 

Im not exactly good at these kinds of discussions.

You've just made a lost of reasons why there *is* a US game canon at all.  Because all those things?  They'd be in it.

are you DEAD serious? even though such facts contradict the timeline and all that has been presented? Seriously? centuries of fighting, even though its the exacy same time frame? thats like saying JFK's assassination was yesterday when it really happened years ago.

Wily used to be X's comrade, even though they NEVER met? and Wily was an enemy LONG before Light so much as thought up a single circuit in X's head?

If you are seriously telling me you consider that US canon, then I cant argue anymore, you are going to believe it no matter what I say.

EDIT: I suppose Megaman 1's box art is also what Megaman really looks like right? Since Capcom US had it made. Megaman 1, 2, and 9's horrendous art.

[Gauntlet101010]

Oh, finally trying to be on topic.

You know, the Megaman series does expend to different worlds.  Maybe it's more correct to say "galaxy", but he still went to space so that falls into the "what EVER" side of the field.  Even if it wasn't in MM1.  Like Heatman's being hotter than two suns.  "what EVER".

Frankly, fighting as Megaman does, does qualify as "resisting reprogramming".  Not through force of sheer will, but with a buster.  That's a better post, tho, I'll give you credit for that one.  That's actually on topic.

I think the US manuals do a go job of confusing and misdirecting in itself.

Funny, the manual didn't bring the X, EXE, and ZX series into this...

@Flame:
Box art and box synopsys contradict too much to be considered part of US game canon.  It's a case-by-case basis.  But it's it's own canon.  

Stupid translations?  That's canon.  Maybe not literal (thinking the comerade line here), but it's canon.  Never said it was great.  Saying it exists.

US game canon =/= Japanses game canon.

[Flame]

But the Box art shows what you should expect from the Game! And the description tells you all about what is happening in the game!

[Gauntlet101010]

As I said earlier.

Wily being Light's assistant does not contradict.

The back of the boxes contradict.  They're their own wacky world while what does not contradict is a real part of the story.

Edit: And that's on a case-by-case basis with only the things that contradict being the exception. 

[Flame]

You never specified that before. You outright said that whatever Capcom US presents is part of US canon. Naturally, that would include the boxes and decriptions, because logically, they are exactly that, descriptions of the game, so people can see what its about before buying it.