Topic: Ancient Theories/Fanon

[The Great Gonzo]

http://web.archive.org/web/19990210073531/http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4611/ - Not updated since '97.

Getting off the subject of old websites--does anyone remember the old fanon names for the X5 Mavericks (ex: Tidal Whale, Burn T.Rex--thanks, Mr. Shin), or any other fanon names for bosses or characters before their respective games came out? (I remember reading that early MM3 previews called Protoman "Bruce", but sadly, the Megaman Library had no evidence...)

[Flame]

Bruce was I think a mistranslation of "Blues"

[Bag of Magic Food]

What if I think "Blues" is a mistranslation of "Bruce"?

[Flame]

DA-DUUUUN!

[Zan]

What if I think "Blues" is a mistranslation of "Bruce"?

You'd both be wrong, since it's "Bluece".

[Bag of Magic Food]

Because it's Bluece Cluece, Bluece Cluece

[The Great Gonzo]

Honestly, I don't think there's any way to keep the thread alive at this point, seeing as how all the interesting stuff has been mentioned by now. But I thought I misewell share this:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/1292/mmc.html Last updated in '98. All the bios are more or less accurate (the ones he bothered to fill out, anyway), but one in particular stuck out to me: Dr. Wily's.

Dr. Light's cousin and former partner. He went mad and reprogrammed the six industrial robots to try and take over the world.

Now I'm curious as to where the hell he got that.

[Zan]

- Breakman and Protoman are two different people.  I actually had a debate with someone a long ways back about whay this idea made no sence.

You know, with the release of Gigamix, we might get some insight into the whole matter. Seeing what Ariga thinks of the whole BreakMan issue could potentially clear up a lot.

[The Great Gonzo]

No matter what Mr. Ariga says, it still won't be canon. (Unless it's outside Megamix/Gigamix, but someone'd have to ask him directly) We'd have better luck with MMOCW/R20.

I always thought it was obvious that the two are the same robot. Breakman fights you and exits the field in the exact same manner as Protoman, plus the only difference is that single "eye" (which could just be his visor reflecting light differently) and the mask.

[Zan]

No matter what Mr. Ariga says, it still won't be canon. (Unless it's outside Megamix/Gigamix, but someone'd have to ask him directly) We'd have better luck with MMOCW/R20.

We have better luck with a book we already know includes no information of the sort? Sure, if you say so.

You forget, as Ariga is knowledgeable enough to have written sourcebooks on the series canon, anything he includes within his manga has to be evaluated in its validity to the canon. His stance on these matters has as much validity as a Capcom employee that worked directly on the story of the games. We just have to properly discriminate between his manga canon and Capcom's. Remember, Ariga was considered to be important enough to even draw a manga further detailing IntiCreates' concepts for Rockman9 within an official Inti CD release. And really, as it stands, this is the ONLY  source we have on such matters as BreakMan to date. At the very least, it's more than an evaluation of sprites that never even made it into the finalized game.

[Gauntlet101010]

R20 has some pretty clear sketches on the matter. 

I'm also in the boat of thinking Ariga's book will be more "interesting" than "canon".  It doesn't matter to me that he wrote a sourcebook, his stories are his own universe.  It's like a comic book author writing a novel ... that novel is not canon within the comic book universe.  Even if they write the comic book at the same time as doing their novel it's just not and I can't see Ariga's work as being any different.

But I will say that his opinions have more weight to them than, say, Novas Adventuras de Megaman.  Not canon, but more worth mentioning than NAdMM.  If he'll present it as anything but a sort of powered-up mode, I'll be even more interested, really. 

[The Great Gonzo]

We have better luck with a book we already know includes no information of the sort? Sure, if you say so.

Didn't know that. >.> But I do remember those concepts for Protoman; one of them is very clearly Breakman.

You forget, as Ariga is knowledgeable enough to have written sourcebooks on the series canon, anything he includes within his manga has to be evaluated in its validity to the canon.

I haven't forgotten, but the thing is, you simply can't bring third-party productions into discussions about canon. Just because Ariga says something about Breakman, doesn't mean it's canon--just how much did Capcom care about Breakman, anyway?

If Ariga says that Proto and Break are one and the same or not in a sourcebook, that's fine. But the manga? Even if we could differentiate between his canon and Capcom's, we can't be 100% sure , because we're not Ariga.

Unless Capcom produces it themselves, it's not canon. I don't care how much Ariga knows about Megaman's goings-on, Megamix and Gigamix aren't canon, because Capcom only licensed it, and probably wouldn't give a doodly-[parasitic bomb] about it beyond its sales.

[Zan]

Just because Ariga says something about Breakman, doesn't mean it's canon

I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon".  That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.

In line with what Gauntlet said before, -interesting- and -canon-: I did specifically use the words "insight" and "evaluate".

As this is a gray area in the story, there's little that can be defined as "canon."  All we have to go on is one battle in which a name, a design, abilities were shown, and some sparse book statement none of us have ever seen that were given on the matter.

All we have here is our own interpretations of the events of Rockman3, that is why Ariga's stories are so important to provide us with insight to refine our views. His use of the character can validate our own ideas or bring to light new possibilities. Until we actually have a detailed canon, all we can is put to test our own opinions in comparison to the sparse facts that we have. That is what I mean "should be evaluated to the canon".

Didn't know that. >.> But I do remember those concepts for Protoman; one of them is very clearly Breakman.

There are sketches, yes. But R20 is not a plot related book. Its focus is more about the creative and production process.

Unless Capcom produces it themselves, it's not canon. I don't care how much Ariga knows about Megaman's goings-on, Megamix and Gigamix aren't canon, because Capcom only licensed it, and probably wouldn't give a doodly-[parasitic bomb] about it beyond its sales.

The Rockman 9 Arrange Soundtrack among other official Inti/Capcom releases raise considerable doubt about this statement.

[The Great Gonzo]

I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon".  That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.

The impression I was getting (and still am) is that you're treating it like it has canological value when it is, in fact, a third-party production like the RS-cartoon, the OVAs, and Mr. Ikehara's mangas (which, up to 5 or so, are WAY closer to the games than anything else, but I don't see anyone dragging them into conversations like this).

What's really pissing me off is the double standard about third-party stuff in relation to Megaman. The Ruby-Spears cartoon and the OVA both had involvement with Capcom beyond simply being licensed; R20 has sketches pertaining to both productions. Yet, no one ever treats them like they have canological value, simply because they're "not good" (well, the OVA usually gets a free pass since it's Japanese, but still). But Megamix is treated like it does, simply because "it's good" (which I won't argue with, but that's not the point).

Yes, Mr. Ariga does know quite a bit about the Classic canon, but here's the problem:

All we have here is our own interpretations of the events of Rockman3, that is why Ariga's stories are so important to provide us with insight to refine our views. His use of the character can validate our own ideas or bring to light new possibilities.

How do we know he's not BSing? The ordeals with Copy-Rock and the second Yellow Devil are both products of his imagination (I'm assuming), so who says this version of Breakman won't be, as well?

Not to mention, any evaluation we make of his role in Megamix will inevitably be biased, even if only a little, so it's not much help.

As long as you're going to treat Magamix like it means something in this argument, I'm going to do the same with Ruby-Spears: Judging by the stuff in the toyline that wasn't released due to the show getting canned, Proto was supposed to don a mask at some point--and it was specifically referred to as "Breakman's". Sure, we have no idea what the hell Ruby-Spears was planning with that, and it doesn't prove anything, but hey.

I think someone who owns Rockman Memories/Perfect Memories should check to see if they had anything to say on Protoman being Breakman. All I can contribute to the argument is what Gauntlet and others found (scroll down until you see those sprites of Protoman/Breakman). Honestly, I have to hit myself for forgetting that. >.>

The Rockman 9 Arrange Soundtrack among other official Inti/Capcom releases raise considerable doubt about this statement.

I always figured that the mini-manga was more a part of Megamix than the game; didn't Mr. Ariga write it?

[Flame]

I would prefer it if every time the manga is brought up, people wouldn't jump on it as "non canon".  That's just beating a dead horse, saying something we already know.

You sometimes tend to bring up the mangas in discussions on the games. While it is true that MHX took Ideas from Iwamoto, that does not mean the rest of it that was not featured was canon to the games. The mangas cannot be compared to the games because they are two separate canons.

also, @ Gonzo, RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners, (blame the American MM manual for that) and Protoman being a Wily creation AND a bad guy. Then there's that psycho X...

In any case, it is also not canon to the games. the Upon A Star anime, inst canon to the games either, but follows the natural story of things. In fact, its moreso not canon to the games since its just its own thing, what if Megaman came out of the game. its not an in-universe interpretation.
RS was.

[The Great Gonzo]

also, @ Gonzo, RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners, (blame the American MM manual for that) and Protoman being a Wily creation AND a bad guy. Then there's that psycho X...

I know that; the point was that Capcom was involved with it beyond licensing, if only a little, and I wasn't serious about its validity anyway. ^^

n any case, it is also not canon to the games. the Upon A Star anime, inst canon to the games either, but follows the natural story of things. In fact, its moreso not canon to the games since its just its own thing, what if Megaman came out of the game.

True, but goddamn did it ever waste its potential.


(Also, entirely off-topic, but sometimes I wish the Fan Dumb would stop blaming the "story errors" in RS-MM and consider that ,maybe, those changes were creative ones...)

[marshmallow man]

If there is something Gigamix can teach us in relation to the actual game canon, it will probably be in the interview/comments portion that are usually included at the end of the compilation volumes. I haven't heard anything yet about Gigamix's section, though I think I recall reading in previews that it would have one, just as the recent revisions of Megamix have.

When the Megamix chapters were first written, Ariga would write margin notes where his ideas would sometimes refer to or go against the games' canon, but it seems he stopped doing it when he began repackaging the tales as his own version of the Rockman universe instead of being side stories that could take place in the game canon universe, so I don't expect that he provided such notes in Gigamix. I think our best hope is the interview and discussion section.

[Flame]

True, but goddamn did it ever waste its potential.

How?

[Zan]

the RS-cartoon, the OVAs,

Both of those were specifically made for the American market. The RS-cartoon was written there and goes by the stories as told in the US manuals. It's automatically invalidated right there.

The OVA is a special case, though from Japan, it went with the concept of them stepping straight out of a game called "MegaMan5" into the real world of "Japan"... It doesn't take place in the game universe, and it has characters coming straight from the American games, instead of the Japanese games.

Thing is, we HAVE used the OVA in game discussion before. Specifically on the discussion on Blues/Sniper Joes and the discussion on time travel. And the scope of the discussion was pretty much where the extent of its canon value ends; it can only be used as a means to evaluate character behavior and as a means to evaluate certain prominent mechanics of the classic universe.

How do we know he's not BSing? The ordeals with Copy-Rock and the second Yellow Devil are both products of his imagination (I'm assuming), so who says this version of Breakman won't be, as well?

Why is that really relevant? We already know that Ariga's considers Remix, MegaMix and the games as three distinct canons. We already see many discrepancies in the timeline, such as Wily's actions during the second story or Rightot and Forte's mistimed appearances. All that really matters is that as a Rockman3 game adaption, it's simply something of interest to see how similar the events could play out in a different style of presentation brought by someone with such innate knowledge of the series. It is food for thought on a matter that has such limited information.

Now, if Ariga actually would explain in interview how his work is different or similar from the game, as Marshmallow just mentioned, that'd be all the better. But without that, we can think for ourselves, can't we? Most of the discrepancies with the games are blatantly obvious. We just have to carefully evaluate the presented material with an open mind.

I always figured that the mini-manga was more a part of Megamix than the game; didn't Mr. Ariga write it?

It is part of Megamix, specifically, the first chapter of the upcoming Rockman9 adaption. And we've already seen discrepancies with the game. But still, included by IntiCreates in their own soundtrack, with Ariga's work gracing the whole cover and booklet. IntiCreates allowed Ariga to help explain the concept they themselves could not deeply elaborate upon with the confines of a NES game. Ariga's work should not be degenerated to a mere cash cow that Capcom couldn't care less about.

[The Great Gonzo]

Both of those were specifically made for the American market. The RS-cartoon was written there and goes by the stories as told in the US manuals. It's automatically invalidated right there.

I was being sarcastic. And I don't care which market they were made for; that's supporting the double standard that "only the Japanese stuff counts".

Why is that really relevant?

Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.

it's simply something of interest to see how similar the events could play out in a different style of presentation brought by someone with such innate knowledge of the series. It is food for thought on a matter that has such limited information.

Which would be fine if it didn't seem like you were treating it like potential game canon. Yes, we can think for ourselves, but in the end, all it'll be is fanon.

It is part of Megamix, specifically, the first chapter of the upcoming Rockman9 adaption. And we've already seen discrepancies with the game. But still, included by IntiCreates in their own soundtrack, with Ariga's work gracing the whole cover and booklet. IntiCreates allowed Ariga to help explain the concept they themselves could not deeply elaborate upon with the confines of a NES game.

I see a distinct lack of Capcom. (Yes, I know IntiCreates is part of Capcom, but this being the first time it's happened makes me wonder how involved Capcom was with that decision. If IntiCreates wasn't involved, would Ariga be, either?)

Ariga's work should not be degenerated to a mere cash cow that Capcom couldn't care less about.

Which I don't mean to do--I respect the man's work--but I made that statement with the rest of the third-party stuff in mind. The closest Capcom has gotten to acknowledging it has been the inclusion of RS and manga art in R20, and even then, it feels more for "completeness" rather than "we care about it". (There was that joke in a Marvel VS Capcom flyer, but I can't read it, and I get the feeling it was specifically the artist's idea) Until they do, with more than a passing "we licensed it", I'm going to assume that they're more concerned with the games.

[Gauntlet101010]

Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.

This is my own felings on the matter as well.  

Honestly, the idea of "canon" in the MM commnity is messed up.  I like how the Transformers fandom deals with it.  ANYTHING official is canon, however each inhabits it's own continuity.

So everything Ariga made would be it's own canon, seperate from the game's canon.  Ditto Cap N and Ruby Spears.  All seperate.  But all canon since all of it was made through official channels.

The RM9 book has noticable discreptancies with the game - the main source of any game canon.  So it's use as "Capcom Canon" is somewhat dubious.  I suppose it'd be as canon as the MM1 manual was.  I mean, treating everything eaqually, I can't see too much difference.  Both are region-specific.

[Protoman Blues]

I like how the Transformers fandom deals with it.  ANYTHING official is canon, however each inhabits it's own continuity.

I am still curious about The Great Upgrade, mentioned in Beast Machines.

[Bag of Magic Food]

RS also had glaring story errors, such as Light and Wily being partners,

How do you know they weren't?

[The Great Gonzo]

How do you know they weren't?

Apparently, that's not what the original story for MM1 said. But I don't remember CoJ having anything to say on the matter, so it could be either, honestly.

[Zan]

The story goes that Right and Wily are rivals and that Wily was exiled from the scientific community years before the first game. Likewise, the story goes that Blues hates his creator for activating him as an unfinished prototype, but he does not hate Dr. Wily, only Dr. Right.

I think it should be quite clear what's wrong with the notion of them being partners that produced Blues and the other industrial robots.

Because Ariga may have altered something about Breakman (beside the appearance), and we might not be able to tell. The problem I'm seeing here is that we don't know much about Breakman other than what can be deduced from the games, yet we're trying to "evaluate" his appearance in a manga that's not canon to the games and may have changed things around. It's like trying to write a paper for Romeo and Juliet when all you know is that Romeo had a friend named Mercutio, and your source material is the anime.

And what I'm saying is that Ariga's use of BreakMan is as valid in our evaluation of what Breakman truly is as looking into sprites that never made it into the final game. They give us insight into the ideas of people that by their profession are closely involved with the games and their story.

So everything Ariga made would be it's own canon, seperate from the game's canon.  Ditto Cap N and Ruby Spears.  All seperate.  But all canon since all of it was made through official channels.

Everything is its own internally consistent canon, that's a given. Official or unofficial, everything is canon to itself, that's just reciting the very definition of canon. What we're talking about is more on how all those separate canons relate and holds some truth about each other.